Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for coming in to take this issue. The matter I raise on the Commencement is the need for the Taoiseach to outline the numbers by gender breakdown of those employ in small, medium and large businesses, respectively. I have been asked by the National Women's Council to raise this issue. I first tabled it as a Commencement matter to the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation in the belief that it was a matter for her Department. I was advised, however, that it is a matter for the Central Statistics Office, which falls within the remit of the Department of the Taoiseach. I have certainly learned from this experience.

I raise the matter in the context of forthcoming legislation on pay transparency. Put simply, the Bill in question will address the ongoing gender pay gap. Women in Ireland still earn on average 14% less than men. We marked the day this year when women effectively stop earning, as compared with their male colleagues, on Tuesday of this week. It is known as gender pay gap day. This issue applies broadly, not only in Ireland, and European Union gender pay gap day was marked last Saturday, the EU pay gap being even wider than Ireland's. It is an issue we have to address and measures to address it have been adopted in other countries. These include gender pay gap wage transparency legislation, which requires companies to publish data on an anonymised basis about the gender breakdown of employees and the pay rates of those employees. I introduced a gender pay gap Bill in the Oireachtas, which passed all Stages in the Seanad in October 2018. The Government has made proposals for similar legislation but so far has only published heads of a Bill.I have certainly expressed concern, as have my Labour Party colleagues, that if the Government had been minded to adopt our Bill, that could have become law much more swiftly and we would have been able to see greater change for women more swiftly. The issue here is the effect in practice of the Government legislation, as opposed to our legislation because our legislation proposed that it would apply to all companies employing more than 50 employees. Thus far, the Government heads of Bill suggest it will initially only apply the legislation to companies with 250 or more staff and then, on a phased basis, move to companies employing 50 or more staff. I have spoken at various different events on equal pay and have been told that women tend to be over-represented or represented to a greater degree in small and medium enterprises. That is certainly the case in the British statistics and I would like to know if it is the case in Ireland. If so, the Government legislation is much less likely to have the same immediate impact on women in employment as our legislation would have given that the latter envisages immediate application to companies employing 50 or more staff, rather than having to wait for a period of time.

I spoke recently at an event in the arts centre about our gender pay gap Bill and was told that very few arts organisations employ more than 50 people. This is a sector where women are well represented. Therefore, the likelihood is that even our legislation would not have any immediate impact on women in the arts because so few arts organisations employ 50 staff. We must be realistic but it would be very helpful for us in drafting and bringing forward legislation, be it the Government Bill or our Bill, to know the gender breakdown of employees of small businesses as opposed to medium and large businesses. That is the context in which I raise this issue. I understand the information has been sought from the Central Statistics Office previously but it was not forthcoming or readily available, hence my raising of this Commencement matter. I thank the Minister of State again for taking it.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I thank the Senator for raising this very important issue. I am dealing with this Commencement matter on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, who cannot be here. The Minister of State has delegated responsibility for the Central Statistics Office arising from the Statistics (Delegation of Ministerial Functions) Order 2018.

The matter in question relates specifically to the available CSO statistics with regard to the gender breakdown of those employed in business by business size. Policy matters relating to business are a matter for the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation and policy matters relating to gender equality are a matter for the Minister for Justice and Equality. Any policy issues arising should, therefore, be raised with the appropriate Minister.

Unfortunately, the exact information requested by Senator Bacik is not available from the Central Statistics Office. I am informed that the CSO's official source of statistics regarding size of enterprise is sourced from its business demography data but these statistics, which are based on administrative data supplied by the Revenue Commissioners, do not include information on the gender of the persons engaged in these enterprises. In addition, this business demography data only include the business economy and, therefore, exclude sectors such as public administration and defence, including compulsory social insurance, education, human health and social work activities and some other services sectors.

Taking these factors into account, it can be noted that in 2016, this source showed that the total number of persons engaged in active small enterprises, namely, those with fewer than 50 persons engaged, was 720,401. The number of persons engaged in active medium enterprises, namely, between 50 and 249 persons engaged, was 290,604. The number of persons engaged in active large enterprises, namely, 250 and more persons engaged, was 467,231. Clearly, therefore, a large number of people work in small enterprises. It should be noted that these totals include the business economy only and cannot be further disaggregated by gender.

An additional source of relevant information from the CSO is the labour force survey, LFS, which provides statistics broken down by gender. The purpose of this survey is the production of quarterly labour force estimates and information is collected continuously throughout the year from households surveyed each week and each quarter. The LFS is the official source of labour market statistics for Ireland. The primary classification used for the LFS results is the International Labour Office, ILO, labour force classification. The ILO classification distinguishes three main subgroups of the population aged 15 or over, namely, persons in employment, persons who are unemployed and inactive population. Persons in employment are defined as those who worked in the week before the survey for one hour or more for payment or profit, including work on the family farm or business, and all persons who had a job but were not at work because of illness, holidays, etc., in the week. The LFS includes a number of detailed questions asked of those respondents who have been classified as being in employment. One of these questions asks respondents for their estimate of the total number of persons who work in their place of employment. However, as this question is reported by the respondent and refers to the number of employees at the local place of employment of the respondent, it does not directly correspond to the business demography data to which I referred. However, the LFS include information on the gender of the respondent and incorporates all sectors of the economy.

The most recent figures available from the labour force survey are for quarter 2 of 2018. These indicative figures show that in the second quarter, the split by gender for the number of persons working in a local place of employment with between one and 49 persons was 49.7% male and 50.3% female. The split by gender for those working in a place of employment with between 50 and 249 persons was 51.6% male and 48.4% female. These are interesting figures. Finally, the split by gender for those working in a place of employment with 250 or more persons was 58.7% male and 41.3% female. In addition, it can be noted that no answer regarding the number of persons at a place of employment was given by 27,000 males, a figure that represented 2.2% of all males in employment, and no answer was given by 19,300 females, a figure that represented 1.9% of all females in employment.

The number of males classified as self-employed with no employees was 172,700, while the number of females classified as self-employed with no employees was 54,200. I am also informed that a series of detailed LFS employment statistics showing additional data on the number of persons in employment at the respondents' place of work and also offering various additional classifications of persons are due for publication on the CSO website at 11 a.m. tomorrow.

As I mentioned, any matters of policy arising from these figures should be raised with the relevant Minister. It is important to state, however, that gender equality is a significant priority for the Government. The programme for Government includes a number of measures designed to promote and increase gender equality and significant progress has been made on this matter.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for his response. I find it extraordinary that the precise data sought in the question are not available. It would seem to be a very simple matter to obtain a gender breakdown of those employed in small, medium and large businesses, respectively. Surely it is important for policymakers, particularly those in Government, to know the gender breakdown of companies when formulating legislation on wage transparency in order to arrive an appropriate figure at which the duty of disclosure of wage rates would arise. I am concerned about this.

The Minister of State's answer explains the reasons the National Women's Council has been unable to obtain this information until now. I thank him for elaborating on the labour force survey figures. It is of interest to see the immense gender disparity between men and women in the self-employed category. It is interesting to note from the CSO figures the large number of people who are employed in small enterprises.

I will raise policy issues, particularly my concern around the absence of the key data I sought, with the relevant Ministers. It is appropriate to raise this concern with them in the context of the ongoing debate on the gender pay gap Bill. I very much hope the Government will see fit to adopt my Bill given how many people are employed in small industries. If nothing else, the Minister of State's response has certainly shown us that this is the area where a vast number of people are employed and the area we need to tackle to address the overall gender pay gap.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I take Senator Bacik's point about data, the gender breakdown and policymakers having this information. I will convey her view to the Government because it is an important part of developing policy on gender equality and employment issues.We have to have reliable data and information on issues like that. Building on the commitments in the Programme for a Partnership Government to advance gender equality, the Government has advanced a number of specific initiatives in 2018. These are in line with the aims and objectives of the national strategy for women and girls, which seeks to change attitudes and practices preventing women and girls from fully participating in education, employment and public life at all levels. The strategy contains 139 actions to advance the equality of women and girls. It includes actions to promote the socio-economic equality of women and girls, to advance their physical and mental well-being, to ensure their visibility in society and their equal and active citizenship, to advance women in leadership and decision-making and to combat violence against women.

Work is under way, in consultation with stakeholders across civil society and professional bodies, on a wide range of actions to achieve this. Last June, the Government approved a general scheme of a gender pay gap wage transparency Bill, which will promote wage transparency by requiring companies to complete a wage survey periodically and report the results showing the gender pay gaps. It also provides for a range of enforcement mechanisms. A new initiative, Better Balance for Better Business, a business review group, was announced in July to promote better gender balance.

Michelle Mulherin (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State. Before I go to the next item, I welcome to the Gallery Deputy Murphy O'Mahony and her guests, Mary and Dermot Collins, all the way from Bandon, County Cork. It is their 25th wedding anniversary and I congratulate them.