Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. While this is no reflection on him, I hoped that the Minster for Employment Affairs and Social Protection would come here because it is under her remit.The Minister of State will know where I am coming from in terms of trying to solve some problems.

I invited the Minister here today because I am concerned about the situation in which many families find themselves when they discover deceased parents or relatives have been overpaid the non-contributory pension. In the vast majority of cases, no reviews took place to ascertain changes in circumstances and elderly persons had no awareness they were claiming something they were not entitled to. For instance, a person may have had a life insurance policy, a slight increase in an English pension or some other change which, under the strict legislation regarding pensions, would have reduced the weekly payment the person received. I completely understand that to knowingly claim something one is not entitled to is fraud and is not acceptable. The figures that were released earlier this year show that the vast majority of social welfare overpayments occur as a result of mistakes rather than as a result of fraud, which represents only a tiny percentage. We are dealing with people who are elderly and often ill and who have difficulty understanding written communications on changing rules and regulations. We have to have compassion and some room for error in such cases. I have seen bereaved families distraught when their deceased loved ones were criminalised because they had not understood the instructions. One can say they are not criminalised until they come to court but they are deceased people who were straight and honest all their lives but when they passed over their families were told they had done something very wrong. It is really upsetting for people who are already grieving. It is not right. We have to ask if we can reasonably expect a frail elderly person enduring all the health challenges that come with ageing to be aware that a failure or error has occurred. Will the Minister of State ask for compassion and understanding to usurp the need to recover overpayments?

I am also concerned about the fear many elderly people experience when claiming State payments. There has been a huge drive to put people off payments and to recoup everything that can be recouped for the State. Does the Minister of State have any figure for the underpayment of moneys that people are entitled to? Many people are so fearful that they do not claim things they are entitled to. Elderly people, who have contributed much to society, should not have to live in fear of payments being taken from them. These people are made to feel really vulnerable and violated while strangers go through their bank or credit union accounts. They are bombarded with demands for the most private and intimate details. I talk to these people all the time. They are asked for months and months of bank statements and asked if they are sure they do not have other bank or credit union accounts. We have to achieve a better balance in how we treat these people. We do not want people claiming things they are not entitled to but we do not want people frozen in a situation where they do not claim things they are entitled to.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty, I apologise for her absence. I am standing in for her. I am a Minister of State in the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection as well as in the Department of Health and the Department of Justice and Equality. The Minister apologises that she has another engagement.

I thank Senator Rose Conway-Walsh for raising this very important issue. It is important that arrangements relating to such matters are highlighted from time to time. I welcome that the Senator has done it. I accept the point she made about compassion and understanding particularly when it comes to our senior citizens and families of people with disabilities.I have seen that compassion and understanding in respect of payments, for example, the recent restoration of the carer's grant, which 101,000 families are claiming. Having travelled around the country, though, there are a couple of thousand more people who are not claiming it. We must focus on improving that situation.

The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection processes in excess of 2 million applications for supports each year and makes payments to some 1.4 million people every week. There are many people in the system. The majority of those who are supported by the Department are exercising their legitimate rights and receiving their appropriate entitlements.

Control of abuse of the social welfare system is one of the Department's three high-level functions. Activity in this area is guided by the 2014-18 compliance and anti-fraud strategy. The Department publishes an annual report on how it is achieving its targets and the priority areas for action for the following year.

Overpayments generally arise as a result of a revision in the amount that a customer is entitled to receive. Where fraud has been suspected and a customer is no longer entitled to a payment because he or she returned to work, recovered from an illness or other changes in his or her circumstances, overpayments are most likely to arise.

There are three circumstances in which overpayments can arise after a customer of the Department dies. First, minor overpayments can arise in the days immediately after the death and where notification has not been made to the Department or the death has not been registered. Second and more rarely, overpayments can arise where a family member, agent or other person continues to encash the pension or other social welfare payment due to the deceased. Third, an overpayment of social welfare can be determined during the winding up of the deceased's estate. This can happen when the schedule of the deceased's assets is received in the Department and it is assessed that he or she had been receiving means-tested payments beyond his or her entitlement. This is often the case where the deceased person did not disclose or fully disclose money held in financial institutions, had investments or did not disclose an interest in property or land.

In 2017, there was €14.4 million in overpayments in respect of 517 deceased customers. Of this amount, some €14.3 million was assessed in respect of 408 customers who had undisclosed or underdisclosed assets at the time of their deaths. The average value of these cases was approximately €35,000. The balance of €100,000 in overpayments related to cases where a payment was made after death, with an average value of less than €800 per case. At the end of March 2018, just over €1.6 million was outstanding in respect of all overpayments assessed during 2017.

In addition to its estates unit, the Department has a central debt management service that can provide specialist advice to any person who needs assistance. I trust this information addresses the Senator's question. I will bring the points she raised to the Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for his reply. He has an understanding and compassion for elderly people, people with disabilities and people who are vulnerable. Will he ensure that a communication goes to the persons who are making these decisions to bear in mind that compassion is needed when dealing with such cases? That could resolve the situation in the main. We are not discussing a great deal of money compared with some of the tax avoidance schemes and so on that we have legally put in place. Going after such a vulnerable cohort of people is wrong.

I appreciate the Minister of State's attendance. We will talk further about this matter.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I thank the Senator for those comments as well as her remarks on this important issue. I endorse her point about communication. The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection has a statutory responsibility. That is essential, particularly when dealing with people who are vulnerable or elderly or who have disabilities. The message must go out that the money goes to the people.These people are entitled to it as a right as far as I am concerned. The amount of fraud going on is minimum. The Senator is 100% right in respect of tax avoidance and tax evasion in this State and other countries as well. That is a huge issue. If we had a lot of that money we would be able to provide a lot more services for vulnerable people in society.