Seanad debates

Wednesday, 1 March 2017

10:30 am

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I may have overlooked Senator McDowell earlier. My apologies.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Independent)
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Yesterday on the Order of Business I raised the question of Seanad reform mentioned by Senator Humphreys earlier. I was led to believe by the Leader of the House that the difficulty in progressing the implementation group was failure to agree on a chair for that group. If the idea is to proceed with it at all, we should establish the group and let it select its chair. Otherwise, we should stop procrastinating.

In regard to what Senator Norris mentioned about Good Friday, there are two sides to this story. The Easter holiday season is an important season for tourism in this country and for many enterprises involved in tourism. Senator Norris is probably too young to remember, but I remember the time when RTE closed down on Good Friday and broadcast nothing except solemn music in the evening.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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That would be a very good thing. It would be better than most of its broadcasts. Haydn, Mozart, Schubert. One cannot have enough.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Independent)
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I note that in the company of our honoured guests Senator Norris mentioned the different practices in Islamic countries which are different from ours. However, every country changes with time, even Islamic and Christian countries. What is tolerable for some is intolerable for others. I do not accept the proposition that anybody with a religious sentiment is offended by the fact that those who want to use a public house on Good Friday do so. It does not in any way interfere with religious freedom or religious reverence.

I echo what Senator Wilson mentioned about infrastructure in the North and north west of the country. I regularly travel on the M4 to Mullingar, where the motorway stops. From there on to Sligo, and up to Donegal town, it is a very poor road in some areas. Likewise, the N3 Cavan-Derry route is completely underdeveloped. I recently went to a briefing with IBEC at which it indicated that instead of the country concentrating on the mantra of reducing public indebtedness from 75% down to 45%, it having already reduced from 120%, we should concentrate on getting public infrastructure right. If necessary under EU budgetary rules, we should use public private partnerships to build this essential infrastructure. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister, Deputy Ross, when he comes in and deals with all of the other issues which he is supposed to be dealing with, and expresses all the other opinions that we are asking him to express in this House, to deal with the urgent need to restore the programme which existed prior to the financial crash of building decent public infrastructure out to the North and north west. As has been stated in the House, the city of Derry and the people of Derry are entitled to have decent connectivity via Cavan and Monaghan with Dublin. If we are at all sincere about all the rhetoric about Brexit and soft borders and the like, the hardest border is that it is very hard to drive that distance now. We need now to have a renewed infrastructural programme, using public private partnerships if necessary. We cannot live in the straitjacket of EU budgetary arrangements and yet at the same time expect this country to prosper and, in particular, the north west to prosper. It has been isolated and cut off for far too long.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to respond.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Can I join with the Cathaoirleach in welcoming the delegation led by Dr. Abdullah Al Qubaisi. I hope that they have a very pleasant, beneficial and informative visit to the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I thank the 23 Members who have contributed to the Order of Business. If I can reply to Senator Daly about Orkambi. This morning I spoke with representatives from Vertex. I fully agree with the Senator that this matter must be resolved. The HSE and the Minister have been engaged and are working to bring the matter to a resolution and to a successful conclusion. The Minister is on record as saying that he hopes it will be concluded in the next couple of weeks, that his priority is to ensure that agreement is reached, and that we can provide certainty to the cystic fibrosis patients who require not just Orkambi but Kalydeco and other drugs now and also for the future. There has been engagement. I am led to believe that the process is coming to the final part of the negotiations which I hope will resolve the matter conclusively and successfully. I was very heartened by my conversation this morning with Vertex. However, as I said yesterday on the Order of Business, it is through engagement and negotiation that we can reach a resolution. That requires both sides, the HSE and Vertex, to sit down and negotiate and thrash this out properly.

In regard to matters the Senator raised about legislation and statements on the Irish Sign Language Bill, I can tell the Senator I would pass the Bill tomorrow morning. I am not objecting or obstructing the Bill being passed. What is incumbent upon the Senator and I as Members of this House is to act responsibly as to how this legislation can be progressed. What the Senator and I both want to see is a Bill that can be enacted from day 1, from this House. The Senator has been engaged with my office and the Department and he knows well there is a process under way. The Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, whom I have spoken to on the matter, is hoping to be in a position to bring a memo to Government soon.I cannot give a particular date in that regard. I note from comments in an e-mail to me that the Senator has put the dates at 15 March and 29 March. I will not oppose that because I will not play politics with the issue. I want a Bill that can be passed-----

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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As do I.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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-----and which will give the members of the deaf community support, resources and whatever else the Bill intends to achieve. I met members of the deaf community in Cork with Senator Lombard on Monday, as I have done regularly. I hope we can work out a legislative process whereby the Bill can be enacted, perhaps not by 29 March but certainly soon after. It is important to put that on record. I will not oppose the Senator's Bill being brought back before the House and I will certainly not obstruct it. It is essential we do not play politics with this and we work together, as we have done, to ensure that the Bill is passed. I asked the Department to liaise with the Senator and I know it has done that. I acknowledge Senator Mark Daly's frustration but it is important to set the record straight.

I am a bit surprised Senator Freeman has not had questions on mental health issues answered by the Minister of State, Deputy McEntee. The Minister of State has been in the House and she is available. There is a process under the Commencement to put matters to the Minister of State and Senator McFadden did so around 1 February with a mental health issue. I am not familiar with the issue she raised regarding the mental health unit in Kerry but in the HSE service plan and expenditure for the Department of Health, there has been provision for €115 million, with over 1,100 new posts for mental health since 2012. There is €851 million for key programmes in this calendar year alone. The HSE service plan is committed to much capital investment, along with service investment in terms of improving facilities and services for young people. I would be happy for Senator Freeman to gives me the specifics that have not been addressed by the Minister of State, Deputy McEntee. I am surprised as she was here on 1 February for Senator McFadden's Commencement debate. She is quite open to discussing the matter. I would be happy for the Minister of State to return on that.

Senator Conway-Walsh raised the JobPath issue. I share some of her concerns about JobPath, as I stated before in the House. Senator O'Donnell has also raised the matter in the House. A review is being undertaken and it would be premature to have a debate now on the issue. I would be happy to have the debate when the review is concluded and published. The Senator also raised the issue of hip replacements and the health system. When I was canvassing in Ballycastle last Saturday in the North, I closed my eyes and thought I was listening to people giving out about the health system but it was people under the Sinn Féin Government in the North who were complaining. It is ironic that Senator Conway-Walsh raised the matter of hip replacements. I met a lady who had to spend £10,000 of her own money as she waited two years for a knee replacement but could not get it. That is under the watch of Sinn Féin in the North. Let us have a proper debate about health North and South in that regard.

I join Senators Kelleher, Mac Lochlainn and Norris in their comments on Travellers. I apologise if I missed anybody else who spoke on the issue. Senator Mac Lochlainn has played a tremendous advocacy and ambassadorial role, which is an example of how collective positioning by political parties and non-political parties or Independents can bring such an important and historic day as today. I heard Senator Mac Lochlainn speaking this morning and I thank him. I praise the Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, who was very strong in his view on how to get to this point when he served as Chairman of the justice committee in the previous Oireachtas. It is a good day and one we should celebrate. There will no doubt be detractors but today is a day on which we should rejoice and recognise the importance of the ethnicity of the Traveller community. As a former Chairman of the Cork City Council Traveller accommodation committee, I know of these men and women who have fought for rights, entitlements and respect. It is a day for them and their families.

Senators Humphreys, Wilson, Craughwell, Feighan and Ó Clochartaigh joined yesterday's tributes to the late former Deputy, Peter Mathews. It was put in context when Senator Craughwell mentioned that the mother of his wife, Susan, has died as well. It is an awful tragedy. At a time when some commentators were telling us all what to do, Peter Mathews rolled up his sleeves, stood for election, came here and played his role. It is a testimony to the man that, unlike some people, he was not prepared to be the hurler on the ditch. He came here and gave of his time and effort to try to make our country a better place. It is one of his legacies. I thank Members for their contributions in respect of and tributes to the former Deputy, the late Peter Mathews.

Senators Humphreys and Daly referred to the group meetings we have every week. In a non-political way, we try to put forward legislation or a roadmap of the agenda for the week ahead. We will do that again today.

Senator Coffey raised the issue of water and I give a commitment that we will have a debate on the publication of the committee report in the House.

I commend Senator Ó Céidigh on his stewardship of the committee thus far. It is important for people to take off the politically populist jersey now and be responsible. We should be conscious of from where we have come and where we need to be. We cannot afford to return to the bad old days of spending everything we have while expecting the State to provide everything. If we were to take the Vincent Browne model of taxing just the rich, we would have no money in our coffers to do anything or to meet the needs highlighted by many people in this House every day.

Senator Boyhan referenced a song performed by Frank Sinatra. I hope Deputy Micheál Martin does not take a Frank Sinatra-style "I-did-it-my-way" approach to the water issue. I hope the Deputy behaves in a politically responsible way, as the Minister, Deputy Coveney, is trying to do.

I am happy to accept Senator Swanick's amendment to the Order of Business and I commend him again on the work he is doing in the area of health.

Senators Byrne, Mac Lochlainn, Wilson, McDowell and Gavan raised the issue of Bus Éireann and public transport. The Minister, Deputy Ross, is still before the committee or was before it this morning. From his remarks to the committee, it is evident that he is very clear in his approach. He is willing to commit to the Government not attacking the public bus service in Ireland, as some people are alleging. He is looking to expand the public bus service in rural Ireland by means of increasing the amount of public service obligation, PSO, funding to Bus Éireann and providing a 24% increase in funding to rural transport programmes. In addition, there have been increases in the PSO services and it is important, despite what Senator Gavan has argued, to remember that this is primarily an industrial relations matter. There is a need-----

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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It is not. The Leader does not understand it.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I wish sometimes that the Senator would stop being like the teenager who knows everything and give some of us who, perhaps, may not agree with his ideology a chance. We do not want to see a bus strike, a cut in funding to Bus Éireann or a reduction in the bus service across many parts of the country.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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It is happening.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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If the Senator heard my remarks yesterday regarding the communication from Bus Éireann to the workers, he would understand from where I am coming.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Let us have a real debate about the type of public transport we want and how we can have a public system that benefits everybody. As the Taoiseach stated and I mentioned yesterday, Bus Éireann is losing €50,000 per day on the Expressway service. That cannot be sustained no matter where one is from. The Senators have raised challenges regarding infrastructure deficits across the country and I would be very happy to have the Minister come back to answer those remarks and be specific on the issues raised. He has been here twice for debates and on a number of occasions for Commencement issues.

Senator Grace O'Sullivan spoke about the Heritage Bill 2016. It was agreed at the meeting of leaders last week that we might have four hours allocated to it tomorrow. My understanding is it will be from approximately 12.45 p.m. to 5 p.m. As was mentioned, the grouping of amendments is not my remit.

Senator Kieran O'Donnell referred to the Irish Cement plant in Limerick. I gave a commitment yesterday to Senator Byrne on that issue, which is very important. A debate on air pollution and clean air must take place. Senator Craughwell commented on the National Treatment Purchase Fund. I am happy for the Minister to come to the House to discuss the matter. I do not agree with the Senator regarding gerrymandering of the figures but I will ask the Minister to come to the House to provide clarification on the figures for the NTPF.

I join with Senator Feighan in highlighting the importance of St. Patrick's Day and the need for all of us, whether Ministers or whoever, to be able to sell the message of Ireland. To be fair, I might have my battles with Senator Daly, but he does a very good job of promoting Ireland across the United States and in particular in Capitol Hill. Senator Feighan does a similar job in the UK with the Good Friday and North-South committees. They are the role models we can use as public representatives, in addition to our Ministers. It is surprising that the British Irish Chamber of Commerce has only been around since 2011. Anyway, it is important that we sell Ireland.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh raised a very important and sensitive matter that is under investigation. I do not believe any of us would condone or support the loss of the amount of money Senator Ó Clochartaigh referenced – either €800,000 or €1 million - in regard to irregularities.

I am unsure whether the Minister is aware of the matter because I do not know who would bring the matter to his attention, whether the chief executive of Galway City Council or Galway County Council. Certainly, if Senator Ó Clochartaigh has information, I encourage him to go to the Minister, the local government Ombudsman, the Comptroller and Auditor General or perhaps the Committee of Public Accounts. Senator Ó Clochartaigh highlighted an important matter and it certainly should not be passed on to the taxpayer in any shape or form. An oversight mechanism should be used and I would be happy to work with Senator Ó Clochartaigh in that regard.

Photo of Colette KelleherColette Kelleher (Independent)
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Will the Leader comment on Grace?

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I am going to come back to that. I will do it now as we had that discussion yesterday. I made reference to the fact that we hope to have the debate on the report in the House. We are trying to get a slot for it. We heard a number of contributions on the matter yesterday during the Order of Business. As I said yesterday, it is fine to have a tribunal established, but what we need is responsibility, accountability and transparency with regard to the way people were treated. This woman was treated disgracefully by our State. As the Taoiseach said yesterday, an apology should be given. Not only that, there should be a clear understanding that this can never be allowed to happen again.

Senators Norris, McDowell and Devine called for debate. I will allow for the debate when it comes to the debate on the Bill from Senator Lawless relating to the sale or non-sale of alcohol on Good Friday. I respect the views of all sides of the House with regard to the sale of alcohol on Good Friday. I hope we will have a full and frank exchange during the debate. There will be diverging views. We will have that debate in due course.

I agree with Senator Colm Burke on the issue of the use of nursing homes. He is right to articulate and advocate the figures from Nursing Homes Ireland. Senator Burke stated 834 beds are available in 210 nursing homes today. It makes absolute economic and political sense, not to mention the advantages for the health and well-being of the senior citizens involved, that we should work with Nursing Homes Ireland to be able to utilise those beds. Senator Burke is right. We need more step-down facilities. This is one of the greatest deficits in our health system. Those of us who have clinics and who deal with people know it. The question of step-down facilities for a one-week or two-week convalescence is a major problem. I share Senator Burke's views in that regard.

Senator Murnane O'Connor raised the issue of Ava Twomey. Again, I commented on the issue yesterday on the Order of Business. It is important that the case of Vera and Ava Twomey is highlighted again in the House today. The Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, has given a commitment with regard to compassionate access around medical cannabis. The Minister cannot write the prescription or make the diagnosis. There is a need for more engagement on this matter.

Senator Murnane O'Connor raised the issue of the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS, and medical cards. The Senator is not right regarding the issue of medical cards on discretionary grounds. Discretion is available and it is utilised by the PCRS and the HSE. I call on Senator Murnane O'Connor to bring the matter to the attention of the people involved. A scheme is available.

It is important to welcome the change for 400,000 pensioners and medical card holders. Prescription charges are being reduced from €2.50 to €2 per item and to a maximum of €20 per month. It is a good news day for those people and I welcome the move.

I am not familiar with the issue raised by Senator Devine on the loophole for roaming charges. Perhaps she could raise the matter in a Commencement debate. If she does not, I would be happy for the Minister to come to the House.

Senator Lombard referenced the issue of the Brexit committee and the report from the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I commend all those involved and hope that we can utilise the report as part of the work of the Seanad Brexit committee. It is important to note that both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have appointed their Seanad spokesperson on agriculture to that committee. I am unsure whether Sinn Féin or the Independent Members have done so. I am unsure who their representatives are. The move highlights the importance of agriculture in the whole Brexit negotiations.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Thank you. I was not aware of that.

I was at the same IBEC briefing as Senator McDowell and I fully agree with him. There needs to be a utilisation of the public private partnership model. There is also a need to look at how we can use the European Investment Bank in terms of being able to draw down funding. We need to invest in infrastructure.

I am sure the Cathaoirleach was listening to the US President, Mr. Trump, last night. He spoke of his plans for the United States of America in terms of investment in infrastructure. It is important that we, as a country, build on the capital plan for investment, add to it and to outline the work.

I am happy to take Senator Swanick's amendment to the Order of Business.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Swanick has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That No. 10 be taken before No. 1." The Leader has agreed to accept this amendment. Is the amendment agreed? Agreed.

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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On a point of information relating to JobPath-----

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I cannot do points of information.

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order, then-----

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It might not be a point of order. What is it?

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I will tell you very simply. The Leader referred to the JobPath review not being completed. It has been completed and published. I have it before me.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order but you can pursue it with him afterwards.

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I have it before me, so I would ask the Leader in that context-----

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, Senator. You are out of order.

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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He was out of order when he told a mistruth.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, Senator. With respect, you are not in a position to rule on who is out of order. This is the Chair.

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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He misled the House.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator, you must resume your seat at this point.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Senator Conway-Walsh does it every day, so she is all right.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator, please. You are disrupting the Order of Business.

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I have the report here.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Is the Order of Business, as amended, agreed to?

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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No. I am not agreeing to the Order of Business, because misinformation is being presented to the House.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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You do not have to explain why. Anyway, you are disagreeing with the Order of Business. Is that correct?

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I wish to clarify the point for Senator Conway-Walsh. I would be happy for the Minister to come to the House. There is no problem.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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You are all being unruly.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I simply wish to help the Senator. We might not get him in to the House next week but I would be happy to try to get him in to the House. I am very accommodating and reasonable, as the Senator is aware.

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I know the Leader is.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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However, I will not take ultimatums from people like that.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Order, please.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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There is a teenager here.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I know there is a teenager. He stole my toys and I am running away with it.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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With respect, the two of you can have a side-chat about that.

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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Can we get the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Varadkar, in to the House next week?

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Let us not be unruly. Is the Order of Business, as amended, agreed to?

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I cannot agree that the Minister will come in. I cannot give that assurance.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The House has accepted the amendment from Senator Swanick and it has been agreed.

Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.