Seanad debates

Wednesday, 14 December 2016

Finance Bill 2016: Report and Final Stages

 

10:30 am

Photo of John O'MahonyJohn O'Mahony (Fine Gael)
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No recommendations have been tabled.

Bill received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."

Photo of Eoghan MurphyEoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Members of the House for their constructive engagement on the Finance Bill. I also thank them for engaging with the officials. I hope the technical briefings were helpful for the discussion on some of the more complex areas of the Finance Bill. The recommendations tabled on Committee Stage were helpful, as they provided an opportunity to debate the particular issues and the Government's views on them. We are finishing work on the Finance Bill, and we have had constructive engagement in the House. I look forward to continuing this type of engagement on issues relevant to the Department of Finance in the new year.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. We had lengthy debates on Second and Committee Stages and many issues have been ironed out. The general thrust of the legislation is to look at making work pay, which is about reducing the USC. The Bill includes a range of other measures. The Minister of State has given a commitment he will review various aspects of the Bill over time. An issue that has been raised is with regard to regulation where vulture funds purchase home loans and small business loans. This may be outside the scope of the Finance Bill, but is relevant.

Last week, the Central Bank appeared before the finance committee and it has concerns about this area. Where a home loan or a small business loan is purchased by a vulture fund which does not operate in Ireland, regulation is under the auspices of an intermediary appointed by the vulture fund. There is concern that policy and interest rates are dictated by the vulture funds. Will the Minister of State examine how this operates in practice? The voluntary code was to apply to the funds. Will the Central Bank have sufficient teeth under the regulations to ensure home owners remain in the same position as they would have been if the loan had been held by the original Irish-based institution? We need to keep a very close eye on how this operates in practice. We cannot have a situation whereby home owners whose loans are sold to vulture funds are put under enormous pressure. When the Central Bank steps in to regulate the intermediary administering the loan it finds it does not have sufficient teeth to deal with it. People are being dealt with in different ways depending on whether they are with the original bank or the vulture fund.

Small business loans may also be sold to vulture funds by banks operating in Ireland. These small businesses suddenly find they are put to the pin of their collar. When the Central Bank steps in it finds it does not have sufficient teeth to deal with the situation. I ask that a review be carried out under the legislation introduced recently to govern how loans sold to vulture funds are regulated. If there is a need to do so, the Government should step in so that the Central Bank has sufficient powers to ensure that anyone whose loan is sold to a vulture fund by one of the principal banks is not put in a worse position.

This is a general observation on the regulation of foreign institutions, colloquially known as vulture funds, buying loans from Irish institutions.

Photo of Rose Conway WalshRose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I have said all I want to say about the Bill in the previous debates. It is short-sighted. It is very obvious thousands of home owners are in the situation outlined by Senator O'Donnell with regard to vulture funds. The Central Bank has done absolutely nothing regarding the packages of non-performing loans being sold off to these vulture funds, which are completely unregulated and can charge whatever interest they want. There is no urgency about fixing this. This is why legislation needs to be introduced immediately. The Central Bank needs to play a much more robust role under its consumer protection remit. The Minister should be doing everything he can to facilitate it doing so.

Photo of Eoghan MurphyEoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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This year we have brought about a reformed budget and finance scrutiny process which has been very beneficial. Further work must be done in the sphere but this gives us an opportunity to review, debate and plan how we protect Irish people's taxes and invest their money in public goods in advance of making decisions. In the course of the debate on the Finance Bill we speak about very technical issues, but ultimately we are trying to protect the tax base and protect revenue streams so we can invest them in schools, hospitals, playgrounds and everything else that is so important to the fabric of citizens' lives.

With regard to the point raised by Senator O'Donnell on loans purchased from the original institution which offered the loan by foreign institutional investors, as he is aware legislation was introduced to give the same protections and regulatory scrutiny to borrowers regardless of who held their loans. It is on a voluntary basis. If the finance committee would like to discuss this further, regarding what may happen next year, the Minister would be willing to do so.I also know the Minister progressed further measures this year as well to protect people, be they in mortgage debt or business debt, who find themselves in a very difficult position of having the burden of a distressed debt. It is very distressing. More work can always be done and we will continue to look at what we are doing to make sure that we are helping people as best we can. If the Senators wish to discuss the matter further in the finance committee next year I am sure the Minister will make himself available at the earliest opportunity.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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The legislation that was introduced is very welcome but we must ensure the structure that is now in place for loans sold on to foreign entities, colloquially known as vulture funds, works. We must ensure the mechanism works. I hope it will, but if it does not work then we must review it and see whether we can make further changes to it to ensure it works.

Photo of Eoghan MurphyEoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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As a principle, all legislation should be reviewed at the appropriate time to make sure that it is having the intended consequences when it was drafted and why it was brought into force. I do not think there would be a problem in that regard.

Photo of Robbie GallagherRobbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I put on record my support for what the previous two speakers said on mortgages. We in Fianna Fáil were slightly disappointed, in particular those of us who come from a Border area, in terms of provisions relating to Brexit. I felt that more could have been done in that regard, specifically for businesses along the Border. Something must be done to cushion them from the future effects of Brexit on their businesses.

Photo of Eoghan MurphyEoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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A huge amount of work has been put into Brexit. It started before people in the UK took the decision on Brexit in terms of contingency planning but a number of measures were also introduced in the budget which were debated in the Seanad and in the Dáil to protect people and Irish companies who might now have an exposure as a result of what Brexit might mean when it comes about.

The Taoiseach has set up a Cabinet sub-committee. The Minister for Finance and I are on the sub-committee, as is the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. We are very aware of some of the pressures businesses are facing as a result of both the uncertainty Brexit has caused in the immediate term but also what may happen following the type of Brexit we will see in the future. It is something the Government is constantly looking at. Brexit is not something to which one just allocates one day or one person, all of Government is constantly assessing what may happen in regard to Brexit, what that might mean and, as a result, what we may need to do as a Government and in the Houses to protect Irish interests.

Question put and agreed to.

Sitting suspended at 1.05 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.