Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We will now deal with item 1bon the Supplementary Order Paper, statements on the Beit collection. I welcome the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, to the House and invite her to make her opening remarks.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to address the House today. Concern has been growing in recent weeks about the decision of the Alfred Beit Foundation to sell paintings at Russborough House, of which I have been acutely aware. There has also been a lot of misinformation circulating in the public domain. I welcome the opportunity to address this matter in the Seanad today and to discuss the challenges facing historic houses generally.

It is important to make clear to the House that the Alfred Beit Foundation is an independent trust and I cannot instruct it on how to conduct its business.

David Norris (Independent)
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I am loath to interrupt the Minister, but I am wondering if copies of her speech will be made available to us.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Copies will be available shortly.

However, on Tuesday evening last I met the chair and other members of the foundation to discuss the sale of several paintings. I had a very frank conversation with them and made it clear that it would have been preferable if the trustees had come to me before making their decision to sell the paintings. The fact that the paintings are now in an auction house in London makes the situation very difficult to unravel. At the meeting I asked the chair of the trust if it would be possible to delay the sale of the paintings or to consider withdrawing the paintings from auction to provide some time to explore all possible options involving my Department and the Office of Public Works. The trustees declined to either delay or cancel the sale, citing the fact that they would incur a fee of £1.4 million sterling for breaking an agreement with the auction house handling the sale, with which the foundation entered into a contract several months ago. The trustees also made it clear that they believed they were taking the right action to create an endowment fund for the house which will provide an ongoing income for the years ahead. Furthermore, they made the point that the paintings that are to be sold have been in storage and not on public view for almost 20 years. The memorandum and articles of association of the Alfred Beit Foundation make it clear that the trust is perfectly entitled to sell the assets of the foundation. I was informed of the decision last month, several months after the foundation had entered into an agreement with Christie's to have the paintings sold. The fact remains that my Department does not have the discretionary funds necessary, believed to be in the order of €12 million, to buy the paintings. I will continue to try to determine whether any other possible options can be explored, but this will be difficult, given the fact that the sale is to proceed next month.

The foundation made it perfectly clear in a statement released yesterday that it was the owner of the relevant paintings and that these paintings were not left to the State by the Beits. In fact, the foundation clarified that 17 masterpieces were donated by Sir Alfred and Lady Beit to the National Gallery in 1985 and these paintings are the property of the Irish people. The foundation is a company limited by guarantee with charitable status and was established in 1976. Its primary objective, as set out in its memorandum and articles of association, is to promote and further the advancement of education in the fine arts in Ireland. The foundation is governed by a board of trustees which includes representatives of the National Gallery, An Taisce, UCD and Trinity College. It operates independently, and according to its memorandum and articles of association, it may sell, lease or otherwise deal with or dispose of the whole or part of the property or assets of the foundation.

The Beit Foundation has stated that it informed the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht of the financial challenges facing it. I understand the trustees met my predecessor in April 2013 and were very clear on the challenges facing the foundation. I also understand that this meeting involved a general discussion of all options to maximise support, including possible philanthropic support. However, I am not aware that the specifics of this particular sale were discussed and I was only informed of the decision last month, several months after the foundation entered into the agreement to have the paintings sold.

The Beit Foundation faces the same challenges that many historic homes in Ireland face. The Heritage Council budget dropped dramatically over a short period of time from €13.4 million in 2008 to €7.4 million in 2011, a reduction of 44%. The heritage capital budget allocation to my Department was also slashed during this period, from €26 million in 2008 to €1.9 million in the 2011 Estimates agreed by the last Government. This is a 92% cut, and it is the baseline from which my Department has had to operate. These cutbacks severely constrained both my Department and the Heritage Council, which my Department funds, in continuing to provide support for investment in our built heritage. Previously, the Heritage Council had provided just over €2.1 million for works to Russborough House since 2002. In 2005 the Heritage Council published the conservation plan for Russborough House as a first step in providing a framework and a vision for the estate into the future. My Department, through the local authority conservation grant scheme also funded conservation works at Russborough House to the tune of €8,000 in 2010.

Earlier this year I established a steering group on historic houses, co-chaired by my Department and the Irish Historic Houses Association. As we all know, it takes tireless effort and commitment to maintain an historic house, for which I am sure there is very little financial reward. Indeed, I am well aware that the upkeep and maintenance of an historic house is a labour of love.I have asked the steering group to present me with an action plan to safeguard the future of historic houses which I look forward to considering. I hope this plan will help to establish a template for how the State can support these houses into the future.

There has been much talk about restoring the heritage fund. That fund, established by the Heritage Fund Act of 2001, allowed the national cultural institutions to purchase rare and outstanding heritage items such as manuscripts, books and works of art. The Act provided for a total fund of €12.697 million over a five year period. No money has been added to the fund since 2005. Of course I would love to top up this fund but I am balancing competing demands with a reduced budget due to the current financial reality. I also understand that new primary legislation will be necessary to enable a new heritage fund to be established.

In conclusion, I am grateful for the opportunity to address this important matter in the Seanad today. I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the work of the trustees of the Alfred Beit Foundation. During our meeting, the trustees outlined the substantial work they have done in drawing up a master plan for the house to secure its future. It is clear that the trustees are very sincere and committed in their personal efforts to secure the future of Russborough House and to live up to the wishes of Sir Alfred and Lady Beit. It is important to point out that the trustees do all of this work on a voluntary basis.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Leader for arranging for the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Humphreys to come before this House to report on the position regarding the proposed sale of seven invaluable works of art at Christie's in London on Thursday, 9 July 2015. The lot includes a painting entitled Venus and Jupiter by Flemish artist, Peter Paul Rubens and two views of Venice by the eighteenth century artist, Francesco Guardi. It is estimated that the sale will raise €11 million or more. Will the Minister explain why section 49 of the National Cultural Institutions Act of 1997 was not implemented and why no commencement order for other parts of the Act was made in 2005? The Act was brought by the then Minister and now President Michael D. Higgins through both Houses of the Oireachtas. Why was this power delegated to the National Gallery of Ireland and its director, Mr. Sean Rainbird, who is also a trustee of the Alfred Beit Foundation at Russborough House? Surely this represents a clear conflict of interest. How could the director of the National Gallery of Ireland have agreed to the sale of these paintings? He is in charge of the priceless collection at the National Gallery. Where next will he go to raise funds to pay for the cranes that are now swaying over the gallery? Will he sell some of the marvellous paintings ---

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I must ask the Senator to be careful in referring to people who are not in a position to defend themselves or who can be easily identified---

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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He has been clearly identified.

I understand that the Minister was a party to a High Court action taken this week by An Taisce, represented by Tim Smyth of Phelim O'Neill Solicitors and heard by Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns. An Taisce sought to challenge the granting of export licences for the art works. The case will come before the courts again on 3 July. An Taisce called for a high level of political intervention and branded the sale an" international scandal", with a secret sale also having taken place already, according to an article in the Irish Daily Mail on 17 June. An Taisce is also represented on the Beit Foundation by its vice chairperson, Consuelo O'Connor.

I understand that the Minister was informed two days in advance of the public announcement by Christie's on 28 April but she took no action to prevent the sale of these priceless works of art. She does not deserve to be called the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. How can she allow this to take place on her watch? How can she stand idly by while the Beit Foundation sells priceless works of art on the markets of London? The Phoenix magazine will publish an article tomorrow about the Minister's activities. It claims that a freedom of information request to the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht returned just one record related to the issue, an e-mail dated 30 April from Ian Lumley of An Taisce to the Minister requesting her intervention to avert the sale and seeking an urgent meeting to discuss a proposal that might keep the paintings in Ireland. It has taken the Minister almost six weeks to express her concern and it was only this week that she got around to meeting the chair of the Alfred Beit Foundation, Ms Judith Woodworth. It is a bit late in the day to be starting to give a damn.

In 1985 this issue came up in these Houses. The legislation on the export of art works was to be reviewed and a high level committee was set up under Mr. Justice Liam Hamilton. The Minister at that time was Deputy Ted Nealon but no action was taken. Furthermore, on 9 May in 1923 in this House, William Butler Yeats referred to the Hugh Lane paintings which were donated to this country and expressed concern at the lack of Government action in that regard at the time.

I note that the Minister met the chair and two other trustees of the Alfred Beit Foundation last Tuesday on the instructions of the Taoiseach. I do not think she had any interest in meeting them but was directed to do so by the Taoiseach.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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That is nonsense.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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She met them reluctantly and signed the order ---

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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That is not right.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Please allow Senator Leyden without interruption.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister sign an order preventing further exports of works of art? She has the power to sign the order.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is over time.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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There can be no more excuses from the Minister. She cannot allow the Alfred Beit Foundation to sell any more paintings. Nor can she allow the National Gallery of Ireland to sell any works of art. This in the Minister's hands and she must take action.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. We have had a display of the usual bluff, bluster and playing to the gallery ---

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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That is true. I presume Senator Cummins is speaking about the Minister.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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--- from Senator Leyden, as is usual with him. The Minister has clarified in her statement the whole sequence of events. The fact that the paintings are now in an auction house in London obviously makes it difficult for her to take any action. The board of the Alfred Beit Foundation was complimented by the Minister on its work on the restoration and upkeep of Russborough House but I am very surprised that a board with members of such stature would make such a decision without notifying the Minister. I am even more surprised that members of An Taisce and the National Gallery of Ireland could sit on that board and make that decision without informing the Minister. That is absolutely deplorable and those involved should examine and consider their position on the board.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It was news to many people when the foundation clarified that while 17 masterpieces were donated by Sir Alfred and Lady Beit to the National Gallery of Ireland in 1985, the foundation itself is the owner of the paintings that have been offered for sale. These paintings were not left to the State by the Beits, which was news to quite a lot of people.

David Norris (Independent)
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They are held in trust ---

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The fact that these paintings have not been seen by the public and have been held in storage for almost 20 years is a damning indictment of the foundation.If they are such wonderful paintings, which they are, by Rubens and others, surely a home could be found for them, if Russborough could not do it, in the National Gallery itself.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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There are loads of paintings in storage in the National Gallery.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Senator will have enough time to speak.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Cummins, without interruption, please.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Why interrupt me every time I try to speak? Everybody will have a chance to speak. There is no monopoly on time.

I compliment the Minister on coming to the House. Is there any action she can take? I am aware she has met the chairperson of the foundation. Is there action she can take, under law or whatever way, to prevent these paintings leaving the country? I know people have entered into a contract for £1.4 million and say they are the owners of the paintings. Is there anything that can be done at this late stage? I appreciate the Minister has outlined the difficulties involved and the cuts made to her Department. Obviously many people are concerned about these paintings leaving our shores. I understand totally the position the Minister has been put in. That was an absolutely scurrilous remark by Senator Terry Leyden that she was instructed by the Taoiseach to take such action. He should withdraw that remark. He flies his kites quite high at times but he did so again in this regard and he should have the decency to withdraw what is an untrue remark.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I read it in the media.

David Norris (Independent)
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Read it in the media, ha, ha.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I will leave it at that. He read it in thePhoenix.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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No. I heard it-----

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for coming in. There were 35 Senators here this morning calling for her to come in and she kindly came at 4.30 p.m. but I do not see 35 Senators here now. If we ask Ministers to come to the House we should be here to question them and listen to what they have to say. That applies to all political divides.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Well said.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I am quite disappointed. I also think this is a national issue. The Seanad is about national issues. This is a national, cultural, artistic issue and it is as important as any other financial and banking or social protection issue that we debate or legislate for here. We all know that Alfred and Lady Beit left Russborough House and the valuables and their paintings to the State in 1976 in trust. I take the argument that we do not necessarily own all of them.

David Norris (Independent)
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Yes.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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That is a moot legal point that we could all argue. One has also to remember that the State has put millions of euro into the renovation, preservation and upkeep of Russborough House. Therefore, it has a right to question what happens to the valuables and the paintings. It does not matter where they have been hanging for the past 20 years, that is irrelevant, but we have a right to be around the table and a right to be part of the discussion in respect of what should happen. It is like the Irish College in Paris. We do not necessarily own it but we have a huge integrative power within it because we have kept it alive through all our arts and culture down through the centuries.

There are two main problems I would like addressed. First, Russborough House is costing €400,000 per year to run. Why is it costing that amount? What are the trustees doing? The Minister is going to take action now. What have they been doing? How is it being run that it is costing that amount? Could it be better run in such a way that it would not cost that amount? If the problem was the upkeep of Russborough House, surely selling the paintings is their problem in their kitchen. It is not for them to go into the store and take out the great jewels and have them travel to make up for a certain incompetence about running it. That is their own problem, to find imaginative ways to run it, as many great places have done in Ireland, which stayed alive by being imaginative and creative in how they presented themselves to the public. They need to look at their own books and their inability or ability to run it and not see off the paintings to do it.

Second, since I have come to the Seanad, this has possibly been the greatest example of the absolute and complete art of secrecy. Nobody knew it was happening, nobody knew what was going on, nobody was told, nobody was asked, nobody was informed, nobody was allowed, including the Minister, into the discussion or the argument bar according to what we read, which was trickled down in The Irish Times. I take it the Minister did not know and if she did not know, it is outrageous. Why did not the Minister know? She is a person who believes in preservation and has a background in many areas of preservation in Monaghan. How dare they operate under such secret vales because what they have done is eroded the trust of the public and caused us to be here today. I would like the sale halted and I am not alone in that. There are many people who would like the sale halted from An Taisce, UCD school of art, history and culture, the Irish Georgian Society and the Seanad. I am part of the Seanad that would like the sale halted. I want the paintings back. The board of the National Gallery has exceeded its power. Nobody should be allowed to operate an export licence in Irish art, bar the Minister. I would trust the Minister to do it well or to, at least, speak to people about it. Nobody is allowed to sign off on that. I agree with the Leader that the board of the National Gallery should be sacked and its staff sent to England to take back the paintings - the money could be taken out of its grant for next year. If this cannot be done, will the Minister explain why and the reason she was not made aware of this sooner? How dare those involved not make the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht aware of it sooner.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister and I welcome the opportunity to seek clarification on some of the vital questions this issue has thrown up. I echo the words of Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell and others that there is a glaring lack of transparency in the way in which this matter has proceeded. There is a vital question as to whether the sale of the paintings can be prevented. I thank the Minister for offering some more clarity on that issue. There are still a number of questions that remain to be answered. Why, as Senator O'Donnell and others have said, did the trustees not approach the Minister prior to entering into the contract with Christie's? I understand from what the Minister has said that she only knew of the sale last month, several months after the foundation had entered the agreement with Christie's to sell the paintings. It is clear it did go to the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, in 2013, but it is not clear at that point if the prospect of the sale was raised; in other words, if it was ever said to any Minister that if nothing was done these paintings would be sold.

I note the members of the board, as Senator Cummins has pointed out, included representatives from the National Gallery and An Taisce. There are questions as to why the board made this decision. That is to acknowledge also the very difficult task the board and the trustees had. Senator Marie-Louse O'Donnell raised a question about the cost of running Russborough House. I am very grateful to the Heritage Council, with whom I was in contact before the debate, which provided some very interesting figures on the huge amount of money it alone provided to Russborough House over a number of years to preserve and maintain the building. For example, in 2007 it provided €450,000 for roof repairs to two wings. Clearly the costs are immense. The key question is whether the sale can be prevented at this stage. I would love to get a clear answer on that issue.

There is one further question I wish to ask. What can be done to prevent any future such sales, not just of this bequest but of other treasures left to the public and to secure the future of Russborough and other historic houses? The Heritage Council pointed out the need for the development of a sustainable maintenance programme for historic houses. The letter from Michael Starrett of the Heritage Council in The Irish Timestoday sets out a number of issues about that.

We can also look at what has been done in the past on similar issues. I have spoken to the Minister about what a previous Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Michael D. Higgins, did 22 years ago. A few minutes ago I looked at his speech in the Dáil in 1993 when he spoke of negotiating with the trustees of the Chester Beatty Library, a similar trust, albeit that some terms would have been different, to amend the terms of that bequest to transfer that collection of treasures, also left to the public in trust, to Dublin Castle. He referred to the really tricky complexities of amending the terms of the bequest but also to the specific need to ensure these treasures would be accessible to the public. In all of this sad affair, perhaps the greatest shame, is that for 20 years none of us has been able to view these pictures. Many of us did not know these paintings were there until the projected sale came to light. I think there is a bigger question for all of us as to how to secure and retain ownership for the public and access of the public to treasures such as these. These paintings should have been on display in the National Gallery. I understand Russborough House could not get the insurance to display the paintings, given the sad history of robberies there. There is a huge issue around public access to treasures such as these that are left to the public.That is the big question that remains even if the urgent question of the prevention of the sale can be answered.

David Norris (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister. This is an interesting day for the Seanad. It is democracy in action. We have forced this debate, basically, by our action in defeating the Order of Business today, but the Leader has dealt with it in his usual courteous way. It is an interesting exercise in democracy. It also shows the relevance of the Seanad. This is why the people kept Seanad Éireann. It is a most important thing.

It is also very amusing and refreshing to hear Fianna Fáil praising An Taisce, and I very much welcome it.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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That was Senator Terry Leyden. It was not Fianna Fáil.

David Norris (Independent)
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The situation is that the paintings have not been displayed for 20 years and the foundation has made that point, but it is the responsibility of the foundation to the display them. It is not up to us; we did not even know the bloody things existed.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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We did not know they existed.

David Norris (Independent)
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Representatives of the foundation have clarified that 17 masterpiece paintings were donated by the Beits. Of course they were. We know this because our friends in the Provisional IRA raided the place. We have them to thank - I thank those in Sinn Féin very much - for a series of appalling and violent raids on the house.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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There was the General as well.

David Norris (Independent)
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The terms of the foundation are to promote and further the advancement of education in fine arts in Ireland. How is it doing that by selling off the paintings?

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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By selling the paintings.

David Norris (Independent)
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It makes a mockery of the whole ethos of the thing. I am not surprised at the figure of €400,000 given the number of gardeners, cleaners and so on. I am not surprised that it would cost that much. Anyway, why on earth do they not have an aggressive marketing campaign? They have the Blessington Lakes, the Sally Gap, the Dublin Mountains and Russborough House.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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What about Glasnevin?

David Norris (Independent)
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Yes, but I am talking about in that particular area.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Yes.

David Norris (Independent)
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We could really bring in people. They only had 25,000 visitors.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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They could get a bar licence.

David Norris (Independent)
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That is more or less negligible. Then there is the question of the conflict of interest. It seems to me to be a very clear conflict of interest. Mr. Rainbird has not clarified whether he took part in these decisions. I am glad to say the Trinity representative was the only voice, as far as I know, who actively opposed this sale. I believe the foundation should be dissolved and replaced. There is no point in casting obloquy on these people or blaming the Minister.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I did not.

David Norris (Independent)
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I am not saying that Senator O'Donnell did. However, we should move forward and look at what can be done. We should look at the Castletown experience. That was saved by Desmond and Mariga Guinness. It was handed over then to the Office of Public Works to administer, a very happy conjunction. I believe this is what should happen again.

Reference has been made to the £1.4 million. I do not believe for a minute that Christie's will exercise the clause in the contract. Christie's would disgrace themselves on the international market and everyone would be saying that Christie's are stinkers. I do not believe that it would happen. The Minister met them and offered to discuss the matter with the trustees if they could defer it. I very much welcome that.

Senator Leyden referred to the Hugh Lane row. What a position this puts Ireland in with regard to the Lane pictures. It is absolutely daft to be demanding them back from England on the one hand while we are selling masterpieces in London on the other. These are important pictures. They are the kernel of the catalogue. There is talk about the superb provenance and the great international significance of these paintings.

A letter was published in The Irish Timesby Patrick Guinness. It was a very thoughtful and carefully balanced letter. He said that it was sad the foundation did not engage fully with the wider community and so on, and that they should undertake a travelling exhibition of these paintings. He makes the point that the Iveagh Bequest or Kenwood House in London did this and raised substantial amounts of money. He suggested that we could do this in 2018 or 2019, giving us three or four years of a lead-in time. That would really help with the situation.

On the one hand, one understands the position of the Alfred Beit Foundation and the fact that it cannot trade recklessly; it is bound not to in a certain financial situation. However, why, in the name of God, did those involved not bring this to the Minister's attention or to public attention? I remember when important classical paintings were being sold by one of the great houses in England, a public subscription was raised to buy them. I know these are difficult times, but there could have been fund-raising events and so on and certain amounts of money could be raised to keep things going for the time being.

I hope the Minister has the powers Senator Leyden says she has, and, if she has them, I hope she exercises them. I hope this never happens again. I wish to disassociate myself from remarks demeaning the National Gallery or, in a partisan sense, attacking the Minister. The situation is too serious. We need to go forward. We need to try to ensure that these things are kept for the people and displayed.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, you are way over time. I call Senator Keane.

David Norris (Independent)
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There is no point in having them if we do not display them.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister to the House and I thank her for coming in. Often we have calls from the Opposition for Ministers to come in but we cannot get Ministers in. It shows the seriousness with which this Minister views the situation. We are all on the same side, those on this side of the House and those on that side, in that everyone, including the Minister, wants the paintings to stay in Ireland. We need to ensure that we all work together to see what can be done, when it can be done and if it can be done. That is the most important thing. The court case is coming up and perhaps the Minister will be precluded from making any comment. If there are judicial proceedings, she may not be able to comment on it.

One of the paintings has been sold already. This means we have little time. After the board decision we had An Taisce jumping up and down. As Senator Maurice Cummins said, a member of An Taisce was on the board and that decision was made. Did they not discuss the matter before that? Did they not see it as proper to inform the Minister at the time? It is very late in the day to try to get the Minister to close the gate when the horse has bolted.

We need to examine how trusts are set up. We are all for the devolution of functions, including to local authorities and to the local possible denominator in the community, etc., but there is a problem if they have the power to sell one of our finest art collections at the drop of a hat to save a roof. We could get plenty of volunteer carpenters in to fix a hole in a roof, but who are we going to get in to do a painting by Rubens? No one, because it is irreplaceable. That is what we have to consider. Are there other means by which we can help the foundation to repair the house without selling the paintings? We should put that to the foundation. I am sure there are options - there must be - and we should all put our heads together.

Why was the perilous financial situation of the house not made known to the Minister? The Minister is powerless because the licence was granted by the National Gallery. I realise that a court case is under way to determine whether the licence was granted properly. Was the power given to the National Gallery? That is a question I would be looking at if I were the Minister. That is the matter of the court case. I hope a flaw is found in the argument and those involved will not be able to operate on the basis of the export licence. Many speakers have spoken about that.

Dr. Loughman from UCD criticised this as well. He raised the question of why more time and notice was not given to the Minister to look at this and to consider the options. Patrick Guinness from the Georgian Society, who is a godson of Lady Beit and a direct descendant of Arthur Guinness, said that funds should be raised by amalgamating the Russborough collection - Senator Norris said it as well - with the national collection and putting it all on a world tour. That is what he said. In the meantime, perhaps the Government could step in and fund that. Give the Government one of the paintings that are in Russborough House in lieu of taking a step in that direction and look at it that way. As Patrick Guinness said, it might not be an elegant solution but it could save us our art history.

All over the world people are talking about us letting it slip through our fingers. That is not directed at the Minister. If the Minister had known, she would have been in there. I gather Dr. Loughman said that the paintings were put on a world tour around America before the Irish people were told about it. That shows the respect that we have been given. Lady Beit said the paintings were in trust to the Irish people for the pleasure of the Irish people and not to be sold. That is on the Russborough House website. That is one thing we have to look at.We cannot expect the Minister to do the impossible if her hands are tied behind her back. The court will look at that as well. The paintings were given in 1976 “for the future enjoyment of the Irish people”. That is on the website of the house. Rosita Boland writing in TheIrish Timesrevealed that the Beits wished to have the collection remain intact in Russborough House. The Russborough House Trust has a lot to answer for in that it is not carrying out the wishes of Lord and Lady Beit. What is it there for? It cannot make its decisions. The house was given in trust. If it cannot keep the paintings it should put up its hands and say it cannot do its job any longer and the Minister could tell it to get out of the way, stand down and say she would do the job for the board, and do it better. The power should be given back to the Minister. It is too serious to leave it. I thank the Minister for her intervention. She should have been informed way in advance.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim céad fáilte roimh an Aire. Is lá an-tábhachtach é seo agus is díospóireacht an-tábhachtach atá ar siúl againn maidir leis na pictiúir seo. Ardaíonn an díospóireacht seo na rudaí gur cóir dúinn a bheith ag díriú orthu - ceisteanna polasaithe.

We are here today in an effort to protect our history, heritage, culture and art. The sale of the Beit paintings is without doubt another example of carelessness, lack of Government policy, political direction and legislative framework. It is imperative that the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht do more to prevent further sales of any of these paintings, which were bequeathed to the people of Ireland. They are not a cash cow to be sold off for the upkeep of a deteriorating old stately home. In a letter to my colleague, Deputy McLellan, the writer stated that the paintings alone are worth more to this country than any money they provide for the bottomless pit that is a piece by piece repair of the house. We will never be in a position to purchase the likes of these paintings again. What sort of message does this episode send out to future artists? What sort of message does it send out to potential benefactors who might wish to bequeath their collections to the nation? The writer continues that if these paintings continue to be sold no future benefactor will bequeath their collection of art to the people of Ireland ever again. There are many out there who say this is a trivial matter but it is not. It is far from that. This is about our history and heritage. It is about a collection of paintings, which were entrusted to the Alfred Beit Foundation by Alfred and Lady Beit for the future enjoyment of the Irish people. The first two paintings from the collection at Russborough House were sold at auction in London yesterday. Was this for the enjoyment of the Irish people? What is happening now is an insult to our citizens and what is more it is an insult to future generations. Here the Government stands complicit in the selling off of history. This art collection is a treasured wealth. It is our inheritance and so it should be our children’s inheritance. A concerted effort should be made by this Government to keep these paintings in Ireland to preserve our history. The trust that runs Russborough House said it approached the Government twice in 2013 seeking support. It also specifically highlighted the need to sell some Beit collection paintings if assistance was not provided. There is no doubt that the State has had a massive part to play in the situation which is currently unfolding. The statutory Heritage Council has had its funding cut from €22 million annually to €7 million. What message does this send out to future artists?

Fintan O’Toole has probably put the argument most succinctly in an article:

This is not a story about individual villains, but about public policy. It is easy to have sympathy with Judith Woodward and her board at Russborough, who have been left in charge of a great house and a major art collection with no plan for their maintenance and development.

Woodworth herself pointed to this unsustainability in The Irish Times (June 1st). The dilemma she articulated is real. But funding Russborough by selling off its treasures is not sustainable, either. It’s the kind of short-term panic measure that comes to seem acceptable only in a vacuum of public policy.

There’s an absence of official thought on the future of places such as Russborough. . . . The legislative framework is a mess . . .[That has been alluded to.] The Dáil actually passed legislation as far back as 1997 to provide criteria under which export licences for artworks could be refused. . . . Thirdly, of course, there is a vacuum of political direction from the Department of Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht, an arm of government that has more or less gone to seed under the present Government.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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What is notable about this issue is the outcry from every member of the arts and heritage community in Ireland and the general public. I could list the various organisations but my colleague, Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell, has already done that. This is an irredeemable loss of Ireland’s culture and a betrayal of the legacy of Sir Alfred and Lady Beit. As we speak An Taisce and others are meeting in Tailor’s Hall to discuss alternative ways to fund Russborough House. There are several issues to be discussed. The more immediate and pressing one is how to stop or suspend the sale of the paintings on 9 July. On Tuesday An Taisce applied to the High Court and was granted leave to take judicial review of the granting of the export licence to the Beit paintings. An Taisce’s case is that the export licence was granted for these paintings by the National Gallery of Ireland rather than by the Minister, who is in charge of granting licences for the export of paintings under the Documents and Pictures (Regulation of Export) Act 1945. I have been informed by An Taisce that despite repeated correspondence with the Department, the National Gallery of Ireland, and the Alfred Beit Foundation and Christie's of London, it has not to date received any indication that the powers to grant export licences have lawfully been delegated to the National Gallery of Ireland.

Why has the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht failed to engage with An Taisce on this issue? Given that the 1945 Act contains no power of delegation, which would allow the Minister to delegate the power to a third party, why was the National Gallery of Ireland granted an export licence to send these paintings abroad? On the face of it any unauthorised act of delegation is ultra viresin terms of the 1945 Act, an expressed legislative intent of the Oireachtas. I concur with An Taisce that the export licences issued by the National Gallery are not lawful and should be quashed. I call on the Minister to brief lawyers in the United Kingdom today to seek an injunction to stop the sale of these paintings on 9 July.

While the immediate issue is to stop the sale of the paintings, a broader but equally significant issue is the circumstances that have led to the trustees of the Alfred Beit Foundation offering for sale the very artefacts they were entrusted to protect. The trustees of the foundation should be asked to account for themselves and ensure that a more strategic approach be taken in future, which does not involve the sale of precious assets. The sale of assets in the proposed way is very much a smash-and-grab approach and even if it does go ahead it does not offer a sustainable solution to the long-term maintenance of the Beits’ Russborough legacy. If allowed to continue it will lead to the diminishment of the collection which, apart from the huge loss to the culture and heritage of Ireland, would surely discourage any future philanthropist from leaving collections in trust to the people of Ireland. I fully concur with the excellent suggestion made by An Taisce and others that new and more imaginative, workable partnership models be established for the appropriate long-term maintenance and management of Russborough House. Given that the proposed sale has highlighted the inadequacy of the current regulatory and legislative framework governing the sale overseas of Ireland’s culture, an urgent updating of Irish export law on cultural heritage to the best European standards is required. An Taisce reminds us that there are existing unused provisions of the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997 with regard to scheduling items in collections for export control which could be implemented. I ask the Minister to consider this in her review of the current situation.

In 1976 when Sir Alfred Beit transferred the entire Russborough estate to the Alfred Beit Foundation as a charitable and educational trust it was for the sole purpose of keeping the house and art collection intact, making it a centre for the arts and open to the public. That this extraordinarily generous outstanding bequest to the Irish people from one who owed absolutely nothing to this country is now under threat is a travesty. As a nation we have failed to live up to the Beits’ expectation.Not only has Russborough not become the centre for the arts, as the Beits envisaged, but now we are failing Alfred Beit's one request which was to keep the collection intact. It is only ten years since the passing of Lady Beit and many have commented that she and her husband must be turning in their graves over this.

While the situation is extremely serious, we are also provided with an exceptional opportunity to put things right.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is out of time.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am almost finished. There is an abundance of goodwill and expertise available in the arts community. All is not yet lost. The situation can be turned around.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I must call the Minister at 5.20 p.m. I have no choice but to do that.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is fine.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Did the Senator not thank the Minister for putting him in here?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I did.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I wish to state very clearly that, as set out in the memorandum and articles of association signed by Sir Alfred Beit and Lady Beit when they set up the foundation, the object for which the foundation was established "is to promote and further the advancement of education in the fine arts in Ireland". To that end, among a number of things they wished to do was to establish and carry on schools and other places of education in the fine arts in Ireland. A later section of that text clearly states that they are allowed "to sell, lease or otherwise deal with or dispose of the whole or part of the property or assets of the foundation".

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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That is very clear. That is the trust that was set up and signed, and that is a legal document.

I want to deal with a few issues that were raised, and I thank the Senators for the matters they raised with me. In regard to the export licensing system, it should be noted that this function was delegated to the director of the National Gallery in 1985 and it has operated under this system since. An Taisce has asked for a judicial review and I point out that the judicial review does not seek to stop the sale but to challenge the legality of the delegation of the Minister's function to the director of the National Gallery. The Department will be further consulting the Office of the Attorney General for advice on this matter and the matter is being examined.

My Department last year began to examine the issue of the commencement of the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997 and it will report to me on that shortly. It is important to note that this Act does not allow me or the director of the National Gallery to prevent the export of these paintings. It is not accurate to suggest that simply commencing certain provisions of the 1997 legislation would allow the Minister to refuse an export licence. These issues were examined in the 1980s and the 1990s and the view has always been that there are other issues around property rights. It is not quite as simple as some might suggest.

I would like to clarify something for Senator Leyden. I called the chair of the Beit foundation on Thursday morning, 11 June, and I spoke to her that morning. I asked her if she could meet me. The first available date that suited either of us was Tuesday evening. In regard to the Taoiseach, he did not tell me to meet Judith Woodworth; that was my own idea. I want to be very clear on that. I did discuss it with the Taoiseach on Tuesday.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister did.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The first contact I had with Judith Woodworth was the previous Thursday. By the way, the cranes at the National Gallery are being paid for under a €30 million capital investment programme provided by this Government for the renovation of the Milltown and Dargan wings. I want to be clear on that too.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I met the foundation and the paintings belong to the trust. It has entered into a contract with Christie's and the trust has advised me that breaking that contract would cost £1.4 million. That would be the cost of it.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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To get out of it.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The cost of running the estate is a matter for the Beit foundation. As I said, it is all set out in the memorandum and articles of association. Also, the trustees made it clear that they genuinely believed and they still believe, and I have to respect this - we have to respect that this trust has been set up for 40 years now - that they are taking the right course of action to create an endowment fund for the house, which will provide an ongoing income for the years ahead.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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They made some mess of it.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The Alfred Beit Foundation is an independent trust and I cannot instruct it on how to do its business. As I said, the memorandum and articles of association make it clear that the trust is perfectly entitled to sell the assets of the foundation. I am disappointed that the sale cannot be, at the very least, delayed or deferred but, unfortunately, I cannot stop the sale. I have spoke to them.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order-----

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I cannot stop the sale.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is misleading this House-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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What is the Senator's point of order?

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The point of order is that the Minister is misleading this House. She has given inaccurate information to this House and its Members. I regard what she is doing as very serious. She did not read the 1997 Act to which I referred. Section 49 of it states that "The Minister may by order declare any document, which is in his or her opinion of national, historical, genealogical or literary interest..." and in that respect a licence would have to be sought from the Minister if she brought this provision into operation. She has said she does not have power to do so. She has the power but she is not implementing the power she has under the 1997 Act.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Allow the Minister the continue.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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On a point of order-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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What is the point of order?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The Minister has said-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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What is the point of order?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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If the Cathaoirleach would allow me speak-----

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I cannot stop it.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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-----the Minister has said that she cannot stop the sale. There is currently a judicial-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order. Does the Senator have a point of order?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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If the Cathaoirleach would let me finish-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Yes, but what is the point of order?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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There is a judicial review going on and if the sale takes place before the outcome of that, the Minister must get an injunction to stop the sale until we know if the export was legal.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order. Allow the Minister to conclude.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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There is a legal action pending here and I cannot get into the details of that.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Why can the Minister not take action in the UK?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Regarding what Senator O'Donnell said, I have expressed my disappointment that I was only informed of the sale when contracts had been long signed.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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These contracts were signed a number of months ago. In fairness to the owners of all historic houses, whether operated by the State, private trust or private people, these houses are very costly to run. I pressed the foundation on this particular issue and they informed me that they had sought expert advice in regard to all aspects of their operations and that they have taken many steps to increase income for the foundation. The level of income gap is not unusual for this type of property. I would also like to put on the record that An Taisce, the Irish Georgian Society, UCD and Trinity all have representatives on the board. I clarify again that there is no legal power available to me to prevent the sale.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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There is under the 1997 Act.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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No. I agree with Senator Norris that there are opportunities to increase the attractiveness of these houses. Russborough House is on a major tourism route along with Castletown House and Powerscourt, among others. I have offered in my meetings with the foundation to work across Government with the OPW and tourism interests to improve the position of the house and this offer still stands regardless of the issue of the sale. I am happy to work with the Beit foundation in order to ensure the sustainability of the house into the future because it is a jewel in the crown and it is important that it is maintained and supported. I am happy to look at the different options available in consideration of the future of the House and if any of the Senators have some constructive suggestions or ideas on the sustainability of our historic houses, I will be very happy to hear them.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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On a point of order, the cost of running the trust is not just a matter for the Beit foundation-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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-----if this Government has put €2 million into it. We have some say in it.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order. The statements have concluded. When it is proposed to sit again?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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At 2.30 p.m next Tuesday.