Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, for being here. She knows that the secondary school teachers are going on strike in December and January with very good reason, because they want the junior certificate externally examined in all subjects and forms of subjects. They do not want 40% internal examination regardless of what the 40% entails.

Teachers are in favour of new forms of assessment and new proposals and they welcome all new forms of practice. Down through the years they have initiated great creative and imaginative practices on practical assessments in their own subject disciplines. Many subjects have practical assessment procedures at their core, for example, science, art, history, CSPE, music and languages. However, these are always externally assessed. That is the key to their success and the key to why all students regard the State examination as relevant. It is also why teachers are going on strike. They are going on strike to maintain the truth of the external examination assessment, keep it above reproach, maintain its human objectivity, keep it at arm's length nationally, maintain national standardisation and above all to maintain its national honesty. They are in favour of all kinds of procedures in the future. They are not in favour of internal assessment.

There is a national impasse and the teachers are correct. I am going to be backing them. The reason the Minister is here today is to possibly tell me how the impasse is going to be resolved and what she intends to do about it because the teachers are experts and correct. The Department is not.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I am not going to ask the Minister to debate the issues she is negotiating with the unions here in public, nor am I trying to negotiate on behalf of the union that I once headed up as president. I know she has noted that members of the unions are in the Gallery.

I want to bring a very simple scenario to the Minister. For the sake of argument, let us take Rathkeale in County Limerick, where if children do not want to go to the secondary school in the town they have to go to Newcastle West or into Limerick. There are teachers living in the area assessing those children. Let me give an example of a case of which I have personal experience. A teacher with four daughters is living in a village where his father runs a shop with petrol pumps and an undertakers business. The four daughters have to go through their father's English, history and Irish classes because there is no other teacher to teach those subjects. Imagine if one of those daughters gets an A. The Minister can just imagine the talk in the village, "Ah sure why would she not get an A, with the father teaching above in the school". Imagine one of the next-door neighbours gets a D. That family will not be buying petrol in the teacher's father's shop any more. They will probably look elsewhere to bury their parents because the teacher gave their child a D.

The Minister has come a great distance from where we were and I congratulate her. She has done a tremendous job, but there is one small final step that needs to be taken. The 40% that she is proposing will be administered by the teachers in the school by way of compiling portfolios, and the portfolio should then be sent out for assessment as is currently done with 14 other subjects. Science would be a good case in point. If she makes that last little step, we will have peace in our schools and everybody will get back to work.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I thank Senators O'Donnell and Craughwell for raising this issue. Since my appointment as Minister, I have consulted widely with all education partners on the proposed reform of the junior cycle. I have met with parents, students, management bodies, school leaders and teachers' unions. To progress the debate, it was agreed that Department officials would meet with the teachers' unions. Dr. Pauric Travers was nominated by the teaching unions to act as an independent chair for these discussions, and I accepted the timeframe and terms of reference for those talks which were proposed by the unions. The talks began on Friday, 7 November and concluded on Tuesday, 11 November without agreement.

I believe that I tabled a fair and sensible compromise proposal at the discussions, and I thank Senator Craughwell for his acknowledgement of the progress that I did make. I met the teachers' unions again this morning. However, I regret to note that there has been little movement in their position. A significant gap still remains. I reiterated my proposal which was presented to them last week. I highlighted that I am anxious to engage with them in relation to the resources required to support the implementation of these reforms, but based on my compromise proposals.

The previous framework proposed the removal of state certification from the junior cycle and would have seen 100% of marks assessed by the class teacher in most subjects.

The main elements of my compromise proposals included final examinations in third year accounting for 60% of junior cycle marks, which would be set and marked by the State Examination Commission; a State certificate would issue to every student on completion of the junior cycle; 40% of junior cycle marks would be awarded for project or portfolio work during second and third year, which would be assessed by classroom teachers, and the State Examination Commission, SEC, would check 10-15% of these marks to ensure consistency and fairness; and well-being would be a compulsory element of junior cycle, encompassing areas such as physical education, SPHE and CSPE.

Evidence shows that the current structure of the examination does not serve the best interests of students. The skills young people need for life - such as communications, teamwork and problem-solving - cannot be tested by a final written examination. Assessment practices must change to measure these broader skills. School-based assessment will give students the opportunity to demonstrate their many skills, other than those assessed through a written terminal examination. Unless assessment changes, teaching and learning practices in the classroom will not change. If it is only knowledge that we assess at the end point of three years, then the development of skills and attitudes will be, at best, incidental. Our students need these skills to create new solutions to problems, to be confident in themselves, to apply their unique abilities in different situations, to contribute to society in meaningful ways, and to assist Ireland in the future to compete in a global market.

Teachers will be given specific support to enable them to confidently and competently mark their own students and to participate in school-based moderation. This will be done through the continuing professional development, CPD, programmes run by the Junior Cycle for Teachers, JCT, along with National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA - apologies for all the acronyms - resources, including the assessment and moderation toolkit. It will also include checks of 10% to 15% of material by the SEC to further ensure consistency and fairness.

Having a substantial element of school-based assessment encourages the teaching and accrediting of a broader range of skills. Similar reforms have been introduced in Scotland, Finland, Australia and New Zealand - all countries with high-performing education systems. In Ireland we have been talking about junior cycle reform for nearly 30 years. It is high time that we took action. I am convinced that my proposal will allow for the broad range of skills achieved by students at second level to be assessed and reflected in their results. It will also respect the concerns of teachers. It is regrettable that the union leadership is not prepared to engage with the opportunity my proposal presents. I am willing to engage further with teacher unions on the reform of the junior cycle. I hope they will reconsider the decision to take strike action, and will re-engage on the compromise proposals which have been tabled.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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The teachers are going on strike, so they clearly disagree. They are not agreeing with these proposals. We have heard them before - I nearly know them off by heart. They do agree - and the Minister keeps making this point - that assessment practices must change. I know many brilliant, creative, imaginative teachers who have changed practices within schools for the benefit of young minds. That is not the problem. The problem is that they want the assessment to be external. That is the problem - not the great expansion of subjects and what teachers do beyond the call of duty, after 4 p.m. and on Saturday mornings. Even the brilliant all-Ireland choirs, for example, are externally assessed by adjudicators. It is not about subject matter or disciplines, but rather the externality of the assessment and the honesty - my God, it is the one thing we have, and Senator Craughwell will speak to this.

The other thing is that we are all over the papers. We are coming down with new skills, attitudes----

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to conclude.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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The arts have been devastated in the secondary school curriculum. We gave 25 points to mathematics and we forgot about music. That is the value system we have.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is only supposed to take a minute to respond.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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The Minister can talk about reform all she likes, but the fact is that the teachers are going on strike, not because they are not brilliant and creative, but because internal assessment will not work. They want external assessment of their great work, and the honesty and national standardisation that comes with that, which we all grew up with. It does not matter what the subject is, it should be externally assessed. There will be an impasse and I am backing the teachers, because I am 35 years in education - all aspects of it - and I feel that I come with some experience of what I am talking about-----

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to conclude. I invite Senator Craughwell to speak very briefly, as he and Senator O'Donnell were supposed to share one minute of speaking time.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I ask the Minister to ask her officials to look at what is happening in Australia, where they are rowing back from in-school assessment, as is the case in Bavaria in Germany. Some of my third level colleagues in the Seanad with whom I have spoken in recent days tell me that academic institutions worldwide are trying to pull away from ongoing assessment in the manner we propose for the junior cycle. Perhaps the Minister will reconsider her position after doing that. I thank her for coming here this evening to deal with this matter.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I am willing to look at any information or research that anyone gives me and I have been reading much of it myself. To reiterate, the SEC will stand over all of this certificate, not just 60% of it. They will stand over the assessment that is done in the schools as well as the 60% at the end. We trust the SEC and they will do that.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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How?

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Without interruptions, please.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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First, they will be doing checks on up to 15%.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Checks on 10-15% - it is minimal.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Second, there will be a very careful system of grading and marking and explaining how it is done, etc. There will be an interaction. Senator O'Donnell referred to her experience and I respect that, but at the level of higher or further education people assess their own students all the time.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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In fairness we are talking-----

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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We will have no further debate - this is the Minister to conclude.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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That is acceptable

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I was a senior lecturer in one of the biggest teacher-training colleges in this country for ten years. It was called Carysfort-----

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Yes, that is exactly what I am referring to.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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It taught every teacher in the country and external examination played a major part in it. This is disingenuous.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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The Minister is to conclude.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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There is assessment at higher education level.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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We are not talking about third level, which is completely different, we are talking about young minds of middle school.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I will have to ask the Minister to conclude. There should not be any further debate.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Sorry, Chair, we are having some interaction. It is clear that we all feel very strongly on this issue.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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That is what it is supposed to be about. The Minister believes in interaction.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Yes.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Good.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I had a meeting with the teacher unions today. Despite the fact that we did not reach agreement, we interacted quite well in terms of some of the issues involved.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I have confidence that the Minister will also interact.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I reiterate that I have made a significant change to what was on the table. I do need some comeback on the other side.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I thank the Minister. I might be very dramatic in the way I argue, but I must argue my case.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Will the Minister look at any research we bring to her?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I will

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank the Minister.