Michael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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It is a pleasure to support this Bill. Some of the statistics the Minister gave us are interesting such as 35,000 visitors attending Johnstown castle each year. However, this is nothing to what it should be; it should be ten times that number. The Johnstown Estate comprises 1,000 acres, almost 2 sq. m. I support the provision of a burial area and graveyard for the community of Murrintown. It has been on the agenda for some time and I am glad this matter will be concluded for once and for all.

I have been critical of this and previous Governments for the lack of investment in facilities that could create jobs in my county, Wexford.

The most recent statistics I received indicate there are 12 IDA Ireland-backed companies in County Wexford. In 2011, they employed 2,060 people out of 160,000. Wexford is not a small county but we have a very small percentage, some 1.3%, of IDA Ireland foreign direct investment jobs. However, we are very good in some areas, one of which is tourism. We are not the best in the country but we are good and we are improving. The proposal will be a benefit to tourism in the county, but it will not just be a benefit in terms of this single stand-alone project in that there will be a synergy with other tourism facilities. Senator Walsh referred to some of them. They include Tintern Abbey, Ferns Castle, Dunbrody, the Kennedy Homestead and the National Heritage Park. A marketing plan is required for all of them rather than for one or two individual sites. Synergy is essential between all the sites.

The castle could be used for recreation but it could also be used for civil ceremonies for weddings. Depending on the usage of the funds allocated in the 2014 budget, I would be hopeful the €2.5 million would be used to the best possible extent without displacement. If civil ceremonies take place, I hope hotels in the area would not be displaced by the provision of competition. I would not like catering companies to be involved in providing full wedding facilities at the castle. Other companies and individuals have invested in their corporate entities, be they hotels or other facilities for civil ceremonies, and after-wedding celebrations and I would not like Johnstown Castle to come into competition with them because there would be no competition.

The farm machinery museum is located at Johnstown Castle. Much of the machinery would have been lost otherwise, which would have been a loss to County Wexford’s heritage as a lot of it was built in the county at a time when the construction of agricultural machinery was common. The Pierce Ironwork Foundry in Wexford town was a major company in that regard.

It is important that we support the areas we are good at. Some counties are good at protecting heritage. We have national heritage in the southern part of the county and a different version of tourism in the northern part of the county but that is a different debate which comes within the scope of another Minister. There are other ways in which we must support tourism in order that we can employ people and get them back to work. My colleagues from Waterford have beaten the drum for their area. It is a catastrophe for people who lose jobs. I am not indifferent to the 200 people in Bausch and Lomb who will potentially lose their jobs and the others who are faced with a 20% cut in their salary. However, we must be proactive in other areas and ensure that the State can step up to the mark. The State is stepping up to the mark with this facility which is badly under-utilised. I hope we can use it in a better way. I fully support the measure. I doubt anyone from County Wexford would be against it.

I echo Senator Barrett in saying that a cost-benefit analysis must be carried out. We cannot just throw money at the project, hold our breath and hope to God it will work and is a good idea. It is a good idea, but synergy with other tourism facilities is required. I hope that a potential marketing campaign for Tintern Abbey, Dunbrody, the Kennedy Homestead, the National Heritage Park and others will ensure we can bring more people to County Wexford and they will leave money behind and have a good tourism experience in the county.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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We will not keep the Minister ten hours as he reminded us we did on the previous occasion he was in the House for a debate.

John Crown (Independent)
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I wish to dissociate myself from Senator Barrett’s remark.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Barrett should be allowed to speak without interruption, le do thoil.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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Thank you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. It is a very fine project. I agree with what Senator Michael D’Arcy and Senator Walsh - the Wexford Senators - have said but I have one caveat. I know of cases where the terms of benefactions and bequests were altered and the new uses were unacceptable to the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests for Ireland because they were felt not to accord with the wishes of the donors. One was the change of use a building and the other was the change of an educational endowment for a different purpose.

It is a magnificent gift of 980 acres. It is probably worth about €10 million. Did the Lakin family and the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests of Ireland agree with the change because the point was strongly made in both the Minister’s speech and the notes that were supplied that the land was given exclusively for agricultural purposes? I hope the project goes ahead but it would have to be in accord with the wishes of the donors.

In one of the cases I mentioned, before he was Minister for Finance, the late Brian Lenihan was concerned with an issue as a lawyer which related to the wish to change the terms of a bequest but that was not acceptable to the commission. I say that to make sure we jump that hurdle and it does not arise at a later stage. I support the spirit of the Bill but I am keen that we would check the matter. I thank the Minister. I do not accept Senator Crown’s offer to keep the Minister in the Chamber for ten hours.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister. The legislation is also welcome. As the Minister outlined, the Bill is a short and enabling piece of legislation. It is very welcome to see evidence of projects that people have wanted to happen and that there has been a groundswell of support for it in County Wexford. Anybody who knows Johnstown Castle knows how extraordinarily beautiful it is and what a generous gift it was all those years ago. The family is very happy to acquiesce to this new use of the facility and to see a way in which the place can be used for agricultural purposes as well as to continue the valuable work done by Teagasc, but also to have another capability, which is to give pleasure to visitors both local and international in addition to being able to provide a recreational facility, as Senator Michael D’Arcy suggested, perhaps for weddings and other events.

In the scoping of the options we must take care not to throw the baby out with the bath water and ensure that Johnstown Castle remains a beautiful place to visit and that those people who take it on will be the right people. I have no doubt that will happen. There is no urgency that everything would be done by tomorrow morning which gives time to ensure that the right people would be employed to seek to bring value to the historical dimension of the castle which is what people are increasingly interested in, and that would fit with the museum that already exists there. In Castlebar, there is great interest in the Museum of Country Life and matters from the past.

While we have this week wrestled with some of the dilemmas and dark secrets of the past, it is good to be able to celebrate some of our rural heritage and to see how that might be entwined into something we can celebrate and appreciate and share with our children and future generations while generating revenue in order to keep the castle standing. Old buildings are great until one has to look after them. I very much welcome the legislation and I wish well to those who are charged with the responsibility of taking Johnstown Castle into a new era. I look forward to paying a visit there in the future.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to be associated with welcoming the legislation. It is a short Bill which we in the Fianna Fáil Party are pleased to be in a position to support. I commend the Minister on introducing the legislation.

Johnstown Castle was built in the 1100s by the Esmonde family, which hailed from Lancashire in England, and was vested in the State in 1945. The State benefits from the project from an agricultural research perspective, and the estate also houses a museum which attracts some 10,000 visitors per annum. The Minister's proposal will benefit tourism in the region, and there is an additional benefit for the local community by way of the provision of a burial ground. I wish the project well and hope the transition will be a smooth one.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, to the House to discuss this legislation, which serves to enable Teagasc to develop the Johnstown Castle estate for heritage, tourism and recreational purposes and to facilitate the building of a burial ground. The Bill amends the Johnstown Castle Agricultural College (Amendment) Act 1959 and the Agriculture (Research, Training and Advice) Act 1988 to include reference to a map delineating the castle and its gardens from the rest of the estate, extend the purpose for which land from the estate can be disposed of, and extend the purpose for which the estate can be used. However, the existing limit of 5% in respect of land disposal remains in place.

Johnstown Castle is located close to Wexford town and was gifted to the State by private owners under the Johnstown Castle Agricultural College Act 1945 on condition that it be used exclusively as a lay agricultural college. The use of the estate was subsequently expanded, under the Johnstown Castle Agricultural College (Amendment) Act 1959, to include agricultural research. The estate, which was transferred to Teagasc in 1988, comprises the castle, gardens and agricultural land.

Johnstown Castle is a leading research centre for soils and the rural environment. The centre conducts research on soils, nutrient deficiency, recovery and losses, air and water quality, the agricultural environment and agri-ecology. The research results generated are used widely by advisers, farmers, scientists and policy makers. Teagasc conducts its research programme on the lands, with the castle and gardens no longer used for agricultural education and research. As such, Teagasc is seeking to develop the castle and gardens as a tourism destination in the south-east region. In addition, a plot on the estate is being development as a burial ground for the use of the local community.

I thank the Minister and the personnel in his Department for the work that has gone into the Bill. It will have significant positive effects for tourism and heritage in the south and east of the country and will attract many visitors to the area. I take this opportunity to note that there are several other historic houses located throughout the country. My colleague, Senator Susan O'Keeffe, mentioned one outside Castlebar. I remind the Minister of two in the north west, namely, Hazelwood House and Lissadell House, both in Sligo. It would be a most welcome development if consideration were given to developing tourism ventures around those sites, which would have great benefits for local communities and the region as a whole.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister and the Bill he is presenting today. It is some years since I visited the treasure that is Johnstown Castle, but it is wonderful to see it being maintained and redeveloped for the benefit of the nation. I had one concern about these proposals, but the Minister has already put my mind at rest. This concern related to the prospect of changing the uses to which a facility that was gifted to the State for a particular purpose could be put. As we know, Johnstown Castle, which extends to some 980 acres, was gifted to the nation by private owners under the terms of the 1945 Act. The castle itself is now vacant, however, and I am reassured by the Minister's reference to the enthusiasm of the relatives of the family who donated the estate for his proposals. The project is worthy of support and shows a welcome regard for a part of our heritage the country as a whole can treasure.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister to the Chamber for the introduction of this Bill. We fully support these proposals. Since being elected to the Seanad, I have always worn a regional hat. As a representative of the south east, I have promoted the positives associated with the region while also challenging the Government on the difficulties it faces. Unfortunately, the south east has the highest unemployment rate in the country. Last year, I undertook work on behalf of the Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to devise an economic development strategy for the region. This involved visiting every county in the south east and meeting with stakeholders from enterprise groups, city and county managers, councillors, VECs, representatives of the institutes of technology, business groups, entrepreneurs and so on. It was interesting to note that the two areas in which almost everybody agreed the south east could become a world leader were agribusiness and tourism. It was noted, too, that there was scope to combine the two for the benefit of people living in the region.

In regard to tourism, work is ongoing to brand the south east as a regional destination, which includes promoting the tourism triangle of Wexford, Kilkenny and Waterford. We hope this collective offering will add value and attract more visitors to the region. A recent welcome development has been the opening of the new Waterford Crystal facility in the centre of Waterford city, in the wake of the disaster that was the closing of the plant in Kilbarry. In a similar vein to what we are discussing today, I draw the Minister's attention to Mount Congreve Gardens, a gem at the heart of the region. There have been difficulties with the facility in recent years to do with the trust that was established to run it. The Office of Public Works is involved in trying to resolve that issue and turn the amenity into a visitor attraction that can be of huge value to the region. It is one of the most impressive gardens in the world and I would encourage everybody to visit it when it reopens.

The proposals in regard to Johnstown Castle are welcome. It is great to see that when the State is gifted land and property of this significance, scale and beauty, we do something constructive with it. We all look forward to the advancement of these provisions. The only caveat I attach to my support is that I would hate to see the castle and grounds being sold off at a future date to a private developer. I very much hope it will remain in public ownership. I realise that any such sale is not the Minister's intention, but it is vital that this amenity remains in State hands in the years ahead. I acknowledge and appreciate, of course, that there is a cost involved in implementing these proposals. This is a good initiative that links in very well with the overall strategy for the south east, which is focusing on agribusiness and tourism. If this project attracts more visitors to Wexford and the rest of the region, it is good for all concerned.

John Crown (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister.

I would like to take up a point Senator Cullinane made about the south east being a world leader. It is. It is a world leader for skin cancer. The south east has the highest incidence of skin cancer in a country where the incidence of skin cancer is rising most alarmingly. The Minister should be interested to know that farmers are at particular risk. The incidence of malignant melanoma, the most lethal form of skin cancer, has gone up from 400 in 1998 to 800 in 2008 and between 1,100 and 1,200 three years later. The Minister may ask what is the relevance of this to a debate on Johnstown Castle in County Wexford.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I was just going to ask the Senator.

John Crown (Independent)
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I am sure you were, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. I am an inventive chap. It is highly relevant because we are proposing to develop this as an outdoor amenity area. I am sure people who go there will indulge in various outdoor activities. They should be aware that as of this month, June 2014, the entire region in which they live and its entire much-trumpeted hospital group has no dermatologist. One could not make this up. There is no dermatologist, no skin specialist. If a general practitioner sees somebody with sun-damaged skin and thinks it might be cancer he or she has to try to squeeze the patient onto somebody’s waiting list for Cork or somewhere else. There was a complete and comprehensive lack of forward planning when it was known months in advance that there was an imminent maternity leave and where, after 20 years of what many of his colleagues have described as abuse, a senior dermatologist there handed in his resignation and said he could not take it anymore. This is an emergency.

I am not going to support this Bill today, which might expose more people to sunlight in Johnstown Castle and other places in the south east when there is no-one to whom they can go if they develop a possible skin cancer.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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This is simply an enabling Bill to allow us plan for a future for Johnstown Castle and the surrounding gardens as part of a broader estate which will stay in State ownership. Some people wanted a provision included in this legislation to allow us to sell more of the overall estate but that is not happening, and will not happen. There was a provision in an amending Bill some years ago to allow for up to 5% of the estate to be sold for specific purposes. That provision remains and is not being changed. There is no threat of the sale of the house and gardens, which make up approximately 15% of the estate. It may be leased to an operator who can run it efficiently. It will certainly be part of State property.

There have been several surveys and viability studies done of the castle and its potential. In 2007 a conservation plan was drawn up. In 2009, the Buchanan report mapped out a three-phase development of the overall castle, which had a huge price tag. The most recent survey, by Colliers, in 2013, for Teagasc, aimed to ensure that there is potential to get a return if we invest in the infrastructure. This is not a pipe dream. It is an estate, with castle and gardens that have significant potential to attract tourists and visitors who will contribute financially to see and use that facility.

We have two responsibilities. I agree with those who have said that if the State receives a gift of this value we have a responsibility to look after it, to respect the wishes of the donors, and consult and inform their descendants about any changes. My understanding is that has happened. The exact wording the Senator asked for is: "...Teagasc has informed the descendents of the original donors about the Bill and they have not raised any objections in relation to the planned change of use or burial ground proposal". I specifically asked Teagasc to do that.

The Bill maps out a future for this estate. The focus on agricultural research will be retained. Teagasc and the Department will have a presence there and the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, has a premises adjacent to it. The public use will continue intact. We want to create a source of income and a justification for spending or investing money in the upkeep of the castle and the surrounding gardens and ensure that as many people as possible enjoy that facility into the future and that it adds to the overall stimulus of the economy in the south east. There is a commitment of €2.5 million in the Department’s Estimate, through Teagasc, this year, if a plan is in place that makes sense, is properly costed and so on. It may not be spent this year but we have provided for it.

This is not just a Teagasc proposal. The Office of Public Works, OPW, the manager of Wexford County Council, Fáilte Ireland and someone from the Department have been planning this for some time. This is not a simple project in isolation. It will be part of a series of tourism attractions in Wexford and the south east, linked in with some of the other successful projects that Wexford County Council has been involved in.

In response to Senator Cullinane, the south east needs State investment and will, I hope, get it, subject to budgetary constraints, to fulfil the leisure and tourism potential of this estate. I hope I have answered Senators’ questions and that they will facilitate the passage of the remaining Stages of this Bill today, quickly, as a result of the positive contributions.

I am not as knowledgeable as Senator Crown about skin cancer, apart from knowing it exists and that the south east is the sunniest part of the country. I can assure him that any facility we develop will not be solely an outdoor facility. There will be an indoor facility in the castle.

John Crown (Independent)
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If the Minister’s much-rumoured change of job occurs I will be glad to brief him on skin cancer.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am sure I will have plenty of sources, should that happen but I will be happy to hear what the Senator has to say.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The House is due to finish this Bill at 4.30 p.m. and it is not ordered that all Stages must be taken but if we can do that we will.

Is Second Stage agreed to?

John Crown (Independent)
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No.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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A division has been challenged on the question that the Johnstown Castle Agricultural College (Amendment) Bill 2014 be read a Second Time.

John Crown (Independent)
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Votáil.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Senators claiming a division please rise?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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As fewer than five Members have risen I declare the question carried. In accordance with Standing Order 61 the name of the Senator dissenting will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Seanad.