Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move:

(1) That, having regard to section 12 of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Act 2013 and Standing Order 103C, a Select Committee be appointed, to be joined with a similar Select Committee of Dáil Éireann to form the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis, to develop a relevant proposal for conducting a ‘Part 2 Inquiry’ into certain aspects of the banking crisis for submission to, and evaluation by, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges under Standing Orders 103B and 103D.
(2) In developing the relevant proposal, the Joint Committee shall consider—(a) the appropriate scope and terms of reference for any such Inquiry to be conducted, including the method by which the initial investigation into the matter the subject of the Inquiry should be made,
(b) the functions and powers required to be delegated to the Joint Committee to allow it to conduct such an Inquiry, and
(c) such other related matters as the Joint Committee considers necessary.(3) (a) The Select Committee shall consist of two (2) members who shall be nominated in accordance with Standing Order 89 and the provisions of Standing Orders 80(1) and (2) shall not apply.(b) The Chairman of the Joint Committee shall be a member of Dáil Éireann.(4) The quorum of the Joint Committee shall be five (5), of whom at least one shall be a member of Seanad Éireann, and that quorum shall be present for the duration of all meetings of the Committee.
(5) The Joint Committee shall have the following powers—(a) the powers defined in Standing Order 71(1), (2), (2A), (4), (5), (7), (8) and (9); and
(b) the power to nominate persons to assist it in its deliberations; and such persons shall attend such meetings as the Joint Committee may determine.”

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has been a number of weeks since my visit to the Seanad dealing with Standing Orders to set up this committee. The people of Ireland have suffered as a result the banking crisis. Hundreds of thousands of people lost their jobs and those who did not saw their lives change in other negative ways. As a country, we were stripped of our economic sovereignty. The Irish nation suffered the shame and indignity of having to be bailed out and witnessing the arrival of the troika.

As a Government and a Parliament, we have worked hard over the last three years to tackle the consequences of the banking crisis and the economic collapse. Progress has been made and we are along the road to recovery. Ireland successfully exited the EU-IMF programme last December, has returned to the international bond markets at historically low interest rates, has regained competitiveness and is once again recognised internationally as a fantastic location for investment and jobs. Ireland's economy is growing and unemployment has declined from a high of over 15% to 11.7% at the end of April. These are positive steps in the right direction but we still have a long way to go. While economic recovery and job creation have been the priority, it is also important that we understand what led us into the economic collapse. In these circumstances, the Government believes the Irish people are entitled to a full account of the banking crisis. The Oireachtas is the Parliament of the people. An investigation through an Oireachtas committee is the most appropriate way to establish the full truth about the collapse of the Irish banking system and the economic crisis that followed.

It will be a matter for the members of the committee to propose what the inquiry will consider and provide draft terms of reference for the Oireachtas to approve. The decisions surrounding the bank bailout, the actions of bankers, auditors and regulators and the Government policies that led us to the economic collapse, such as light touch regulation, are some of the items that the committee members may consider. The people who made these policy decisions and those who implemented the policies should come before the elected representatives of the people of Ireland and explain their role in the economic collapse. I have been working closely with the Whips of the political parties and the Technical Group in the Dáil on the establishment of the Dáil select committee. There is a cross-party commitment to this Oireachtas inquiry, as seen in the Deputies appointed members of the committee. I have no doubt that this House will match that by appointing excellent Senators to the committee. It is in the best interest of all Members of this Oireachtas, from all parties and none, that the inquiry is successful.

An inquiry that provides a comprehensive set of reports into the origins and underlying causes of the banking crisis and the resulting economic collapse will play a significant role in guaranteeing that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. The Government introduced a Bill to amend the Constitution to establish an Oireachtas inquiry system in 2011 but the referendum held in October that year was defeated. As a result, new legislation was required and the Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill was passed in July 2013. New Standing Orders required under the Act were approved by the Dáil and Seanad in January and February 2014. These Standing Orders create the parliamentary framework for establishing an inquiry, including how inquiries are set up, guidelines on how to conduct inquiries, compellability consent, oversight powers on the inquiry, and how any allegations of bias are addressed. The foundations are now in place to hold a banking inquiry.

Earlier, the Dáil established a select committee with seven members. The Seanad is now being asked to establish a select committee with two members. The new joint committee; chaired by Deputy Ciarán Lynch, Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, will submit proposals to hold an inquiry, including draft terms of reference for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to consider and recommend for approval by the Houses of the Oireachtas. The next phase will involve gathering of relevant information, after which the committee will analyse the information and conduct oral hearings before submitting a draft report to both Houses. This committee will show the public what can be achieved when Members of this Oireachtas work together for the good of the people. It is the type of work that is carried out in committee rooms in this building every week but gets little attention. The representatives of the Irish people have the right, the authority and a moral obligation to inquire into the greatest collapse to befall this country in recent times. I wish Deputy Ciarán Lynch and the Deputies and Senators selected to be members of the committee well in their work.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Paul Kehoe.
Fianna Fáil supports the establishment of the banking inquiry in its general format. However, a parliamentary inquiry on its own does not go far enough and will be precluded from fully investigating what happened during the collapse of the banking sector in Ireland. The people will not be satisfied with a parliamentary inquiry which, in theory, will not have adequate teeth to fully investigate what happened. Questions will be asked if the banking inquiry will follow on a report published in March 2011. We now have a committee of inquiry, but it is made up of Members of the Oireachtas. The question has to be asked whether the people will accept politicians on a partisan basis, under the party Whip system, making decisions in an investigation into what actually happened. Questions are already being asked about the partisan nature of the committee. It would be much better if the Oireachtas adopted a more hands-off approach in such an inquiry and if it was headed up by a High Court judge and given the necessary resources. It would cost nothing more to go down that road and at least nobody would be able to say such an inquiry was partisan in nature. Time will show that this was the wrong type of inquiry. One only has to look at the Abbeylara inquiry into the death of John Carthy and what the Supreme Court in its ruling found that it had many shortcomings. I would hate to think such an important issue as the collapse of the banking sector and the knock-on effect on the economy would be dealt with in a half-hearted way.
Let us look at Bank of Ireland. Over a period of 200 years up to 1999 it lent about €100 billion, but in the following ten years it lent the same amount. There are questions that need to be asked. As my time is limited, I want to touch on some of them.
The terms of reference of the inquiry need to be established. The parties in government will state the Government at the time should have called a halt. Yes, that may be the case. However, during the debate in both Houses of the Oireachtas in 2003 on the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority Act 2004 not one political party raised any question about the financial institutions or the banks. In fact, the then Opposition spokesperson, Deputy Richard Bruton, now Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, said the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority could not be expected to ride shotgun with every bank and that banks had deep pockets to resource various wheezes. In the long run only self-assessment and self-regulation would work, not trying to catch people out.That is what those now in government said at the time.
To fully establish what went wrong, a number of key issues need to be investigated and included in the terms of reference which I understand are being established by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. The Department of Finance, the Central Bank, the Financial Regulator, the Economic and Social Research Institute, the European Commission, the European Central Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development failed to predict the onset of the financial crisis and their roles need to be fully investigated. The processes by which the financial institutions individually became involved in the crisis and their auditing systems need to be investigated because, clearly, they were broken.
The role of the ECB in the lead-up to the financial crisis and its culpability in assessing it by its cheap money policy needs to be queried. What led to the bank guarantee? What pressure was brought to bear on the ECB in respect of the bank guarantee and what was its role in insisting on none of the Irish banks failing?
The events leading up to nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank in January 2009 needs to be investigated. The decision to establish NAMA and its consequences, the events leading up to the bailout in 2010 and the role the European Central Bank played in this regard must also be investigated. The attempts of the Government to get the ECB to agree to burden sharing, the reasons the ECB did not play ball in that regard and the decision to liquidise the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation and its consequences are some of the issues that must be investigated. If the inquiry is refined and narrow and simply covers the bank guarantee, we will only be letting the banks and bankers off the hook. It needs to have teeth. Given that we are having a parliamentary inquiry, these are some of the issues that need to be fully investigated.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State.

I am pleased to support the motion to establish an Oireachtas committee to inquire into the banking crisis. Such an inquiry is long overdue. The Government is still picking up the pieces of a disastrous banking crisis and the disastrous response to it. The people have endured a deep recession as a consequence which has been very difficult, demanding and painful for many. People lost their jobs, some lost their homes and many of our young bright people were forced to emigrate. Thankfully, unemployment has fallen from 15% to almost 11.5%. More than 70,000 jobs were created in the past 12 months, but this can only be a start and ordinary people must realise the fruits of recovery. We cannot gloss over the past. We must learn the lessons of history or risk repeating them. The people are entitled to see and hear from those directly involved in this debacle.

I am glad that this House will have representation at the banking inquiry. There were suggestions, many months ago, that it would be a Dáil committee. I am, therefore, glad that the Government has decided that two Senators will be represented on the committee and I am sure we will choose two Members who will be very diligent in fulfilling their duties. It is important that both Houses of the Oireachtas be represented on the committee and it will be a long and arduous task to get to the truth which is what the people want. I hope the committee, when it reports, will provide the answers to the many questions Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill raised. They are the ones that have to be answered, in addition to many more, and the people deserve answers because they are paying for the sins of the past. I wish the committee well in its work. It will be a long and arduous task, but I am confident that the committee's members, irrespective of politics, will work together to get the answers the people deserve. I commend the motion to the House.

John Crown (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State. As the Leader said, this inquiry is overdue and I am delighted that it is happening, as there is a clear need for an inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the financial collapse, circumstances which, clearly, were heavily contributed to by the actions of the banks. It is telling that the Government and Opposition supported initiative is focusing so much on the banks because, clearly, there is a broader story.

I hope the terms of reference will allow the appropriate questions to be asked about the role of other players, who are not employees, board members, etc., of the banks, in the events. Let us be honest. The economy failed because of three constituencies: the banks and the financial services sector, the building and property development trades and the government, with a small "g". Of those, the banks acted usually incompetently, sometimes possibly criminally, although that will be determined in other fora, but always in their self-interest. There was something rational about the way the banks behaved at the time. They found themselves in a situation whereby the country suddenly became flooded with cheap foreign credit and they did what bankers were doing throughout the world, namely, they incentivised their staff to sell loans to people which they could not afford. People in the banks at all levels were getting bonuses for giving this kind of advice.

I had a conversation with a gentleman recently who was involved on the fringe of the whole process. He maintained the problem in the country was that we all got greedy and offered the defence that everyone was to blame and therefore no one was to blame. I do not buy that. I do not believe we all got greedy. Ordinary people throughout the length and breadth of the country did the same thing that their parents and grandparents did, namely, they bought a house. The only difference was that they were told the rules had changed. People who had received prudent advice for generations and over the years to the effect that one should only borrow 70% or 80% of the value of the house and that one should only borrow two or two and a half times the annual household income, were suddenly told that all those rules had gone, that one could borrow 100% on an interest-only basis and that it did not much matter whether this was five or six times a person's salary because in the past we had been too conservative.

People bought into this advice from a group that they had previously considered to be a priest class, that is, the bankers. If we were asked who in every town in Ireland did we trust, we would say we trusted the teacher and the bank manager. These were the pillars of the community and the people whose words meant something. Suddenly, the view was that the advice being given was incorrect, it was wrong and it was being given for the self-interest of the bankers. This is a question which, I imagine, will come out. This is why I believe the great majority of the mis-steps taken by the banks will be found not to be criminal. There were entirely legal, rational and foolish.

The case is similar with the building trade. If people want houses, if there is a growing population and if people have access to cheap money, a builder will build the houses. Furthermore, if generations of Governments have tried to put incentives in place to make people buy houses as opposed to renting properties, thus committing themselves in many cases to lengthy and unsustainable mortgages, then the builders will do it. All of these people acted entirely rationally, although not very socially responsibly.

Who were the guilty parties? The guilty parties were those in government. I do not simply mean the outgoing Fianna Fáil-Green Party-Progressive Democrats coalition. I mean the process of government in the country. I mean politicians from both sides of the aisles of both Houses and senior officials. These were the people who were not supposed to act in their self-interest. These were the people who were charged with the task of looking after the public interest. These were the people who were supposed to rein in the natural exuberant tendencies of self-interest manifested by those who could gain profit from flogging their wares. They were supposed to be our people in this equation and they failed.

I have no wish to be sectarian about it but it is obvious that those in the outgoing Government bore specific responsibility for this since they had been in power for much of the time. However, the bleats of financial rectitude that we hear from those in the current Government ring hollow when one considers the fact that they never yelled "Stop". In fact, prominent persons in the current Government were pouring fuel on the fires of the mad house price bubble and inflation by making suggestions such as further reducing stamp duty and putting further incentives in place to enable people to take up mortgages which, ultimately, were unsustainable. We also had the entire group of permanent government officials, civil servants and regulators. It is now well known that there was not one person with a PhD in economics working in the front-line services of the Department of Finance on the night the bank guarantee was given. It is outrageous and unacceptable.

I hope that the inquiry casts some light on the tragic events that have had such awful consequences for so many people in the country, but it cannot be too narrowly focused. We cannot have another exercise whereby a whistleblower points out something which is found to be a problem and then everyone aims at the lowest level of accountability. Accountability goes to the top in this case. A little flame of light needs to be flickered onto some of these dark events and we cannot allow it to blow out.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I welcome the setting up of the banking inquiry. Everyone has talked about the pain and suffering people went through. I recall in particular the shock, confusion and horror as the whole banking crisis unfolded. Let those of us sitting in the House cast our minds back to those months and the constant stream of news on the radio and the paralysis of everything as we sought to try to understand what had happened. There were no answers. Instead, there were simply more questions and more confusion while, rapidly, we saw the country appear to go down the proverbial. It was a difficult time and it has been followed by people's lives being, in some cases, destroyed permanently and, in many cases, scarred completely. My colleague, Senator Cummins, referred to people leaving the country, losing their jobs, losing their houses and losing their lives. This is not any old political story today. It has a real resonance for many people in the country.

It will be difficult to make any inquiry perfect. I am shocked at Senator Ó Domhnaill's remarks about a half-hearted way of conducting an inquiry. How dare he, as a public representative, cast aspersions on the fellow public representatives who will, I have no doubt, do their level best as public representatives to inquire into this matter? This is not an inquiry run by experts. That is not what it is setting out to do. It is about public representatives inquiring on behalf of the public. As a public representative himself, Deputy Ó Domhnaill should know that.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It does not have the teeth.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are public representatives.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Judge and jury.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will do our job as public representatives.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It does not have statutory powers.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How dare Senator Ó Domhnaill of all people-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It does not have statutory powers to call witnesses.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator O'Keeffe, without interruption, please.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of all the people in this House, I certainly know about being called in front of an inquiry and I certainly know how difficult it is to get any inquiry to be right and proper and to be fully transparent. To be fully anything is simply not possible. Anyway, here we are. We have a duty as public representatives to carry out the inquiry. It has the teeth given to it by the people of the country who elected, in the main, the Members in the other House and, in the peculiar way we have, the Members of this House. We are elected representatives. We will do our best, whoever those people are and that is right and proper. Otherwise, if Parliament does not bother to run an inquiry and to acknowledge that it is our duty then it is a sad day indeed. The cynicism that we hear about and the cynicism that people have about politics will surely only multiply if we take the view that we do not have the expertise and therefore we should not bother. Senator Ó Domhnaill and his colleagues should note that if we did not bother then he would be jumping up and down in his little spot.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is Frankfurt's way or Labour's way. Where is Frankfurt now?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator O'Keeffe, without interruption.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please. Is that Senator Ó Domhnaill's best line? God help us all.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Labour Party made promises and then it broke those promises. This is another one. Not one banker has been touched.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we have Senator O'Keeffe, without interruption, please?

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Excuse me. The courts are independent and the courts will bring people to justice. That is their job and they will do their job. I, for one, have no intention of trying to influence them. Perhaps that is the Fianna Fáil style, although I am unsure. All I can say is that it is our responsibility.

I am pleased to welcome the inquiry with all its flaws. It is no harm to say that. Of course it will not bring all the results we would like. Of course we will not get the A to Z of everything that happened that night, the previous night, the following night and whether they ate chips or curry. That simply will not happen. At the least, we will do our best and we will show that people can come into the inquiry. Then, if they say they cannot remember what happened that night, then the whole country will hear it. That will be a good thing because then we can decide whether they are telling the truth about not remembering it or whether they are simply suiting themselves by not remembering. At the very least, the public will see it. As Senator Ó Domhnaill knows well, the public are not stupid.

I welcome the inquiry. I hope that the terms of reference will be struck fairly. I hope they will take into account something of the wider picture, not least our relationship with the European Central Bank and the European Commission, because that is a strong and a real part of this story.

Any inquiry that does not extend to that, would be a poorer inquiry as a result.

Even before it has started, many commentators have written and spoken about this inquiry. I am inclined to agree with the comment made by John Downing, that if we do not have an inquiry, we will be drawn into what he describes as the culture of fatalism. I am inclined to believe that as parliamentarians, we have a responsibility to try to restore some of the faith in politics that has been lost. We do not get things right every day, but we do our best. This inquiry is some small part towards doing our best, in calling people to account on behalf of the public. This is our job and whoever of us is on the committee will do their best.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Kathryn Reilly (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sinn Féin supports this motion. The Minister of State said that the people of Ireland have suffered as a result of the banking crisis. As we all know, that is probably the understatement of the century. The word "suffered" does not do justice to what the people have undergone over the past number of years as a result of the crisis or to what has come out since then.

We support the motion. The Government has sat on the issue for the past number of years, but public opinion has now forced its hand. It is approaching seven years since the first signs of the crisis appeared and in that time we have had four reports into the period, countless inches and columns of newspaper reports, books and television programmes. Almost everyone is an expert on the issue at this stage and can articulate clearly what happened. We are an educated citizenry on the financial and banking crisis and now at last, the Oireachtas is set to examine what happened over that period in a public way and to question those people involved at the time.

This motion involves the technical setting up of the committee and leaves much of the nitty gritty deals to the members of the committee in the context of its terms of reference and rules. In the Dáil, Sinn Féin has nominated Deputy Pearse Doherty, our spokesman on finance, to the inquiry and I am confident he will be thorough and fair in his actions at all points as a member of the committee. As some Members have said, we need to be honest about what this inquiry can deliver. It will not be a substitute for a criminal investigation into those who presided over the banking crisis nor a substitute for convictions of bankers or jail sentences for those whose greed and incompetence brought the State to its knees, whether bankers, politicians, spectators or developers. It will not make up for the mistakes of the past nor lift the burden from the people either.

The Minister of State said in his speech that the Irish nation suffered the shame and indignity of having to be bailed out. It was not just that and the shame of the troika being brought in, but every day Irish people are suffering the shame and indignity of being evicted from their homes, having to seek emergency accommodation, having to beg for social welfare, having their medical cards taken from them and having to fight to get their sick children into hospitals. This is the real shame and indignity resulting from the banking and financial crisis. No inquiry nor anything we can do can make up for this.

There has not been much progress to date on recapitalising our pillar bank debt through the ESM, despite the announcement made in 2011 of the seismic shift and a game change. Formalising the Anglo debt as sovereign debt has brought a burden for future generations of a debt that is not theirs. This will affect children who are not even born yet. An ESRI report has shown that young people and children suffered most deprivation during the recession. When we consider the amount of the debt burden for them in the future, what effect will this have on them considering the already disproportionate and unequal effect of the recession on young people and children?

We support the motion and we will play a full role in the committee and ask the questions the people want us to ask and which need to be asked. There is an issue with regard to empowering the committee to compel witnesses to come forward so as to get down to the business of establishing the truth. We need the full co-operation of all parties involved in that regard, including the various sheltered accounting bodies and firms that have played a central role and which are still involved with many of our banks.

The Minister of State is here on behalf of the Taoiseach. What are his thoughts on a recent reply from the ECB to my party colleague, Martina Anderson, MEP, in which the ECB expressed great alarm at the idea it had a role in the crisis, particularly its former president, Jean-Claude Trichet? Will the Taoiseach, as Head of the Government, insist that the November 2010 letter from Trichet to Brian Lenihan be released?

Hildegarde Naughton (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome this motion. We all wish this inquiry could have happened sooner, but as legislators we must be aware of the legal constraints and the potential for legal challenges to it.

I would like to address the comment made by the Sinn Féin Senator with regard to the Government being forced into holding this inquiry. That is not the case. The Government introduced the Oireachtas inquiries referendum in 2011, but it was defeated. Following that, further thought had to be put into how we would go about putting forward such an inquiry.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Three years.

Hildegarde Naughton (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are now at the juncture where a committee is to be established. The Oireachtas tradition is that committee members would put party politics aside and act in the best interest of the public. Given the calibre of those chosen to sit on the committee to date, I have no doubt but that this will happen. I also have no doubt that the public will not tolerate any grandstanding of committee members playing party politics.

The people of this country have suffered greatly. We are six years from the fateful collapse and although the Nyberg and Honohan reports are completed and published, they are dry, academic tomes. What citizens want to hear and see is the people involved in government and banking, the regulators and auditors and anyone with any hand, act or part in the collapse, come before Parliament to tell us what happened. Some commentators say we will not learn anything new, but I do not believe that. However, even if that is the case, we will see the personalities involved sit before the people's representatives and account for their actions in their own words. That is how it should be in a republic.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If there was a prize for brass neck of the year, the Minister of State would win it hands down based on his speech here this evening. The first line of his speech was correct, but the rest was a load of rubbish. He was right when he said at the start that the people of Ireland have suffered as a result of the banking crisis.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They suffered in other ways as well, and closer to Senator Cullinane's home.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us remind ourselves how the people have suffered. The Minister of State should listen and take his medicine.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Cullinane, without interruption.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister of State is well able to give it out, but he should listen now and take his medicine. Nobody from Sinn Féin interrupted the Minister of State or anybody else. He should sit and listen and pay us the same respect we paid him.

Let us remind ourselves of the suffering Fine Gael and its colleagues and the previous Government has imposed on the people of this State: the universal social charge; cuts to medical cards, left, right and centre; rent supplement cut; telephone allowance for older people cut; college fees increased; child benefit cut -----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is unfortunate the Senator is unable to stick to the motion.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Cullinane, without interruption.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

----- water charges; and property tax. This is the suffering that has been inflicted on the people of the State by the Government. The Minister of State stated correctly that this suffering is being endured by people because of the banking crisis. However, the bankers have not suffered at all.

Let us remind ourselves what the previous Government and the current Government did to bail out the bankers. First, they set up NAMA and took all of the bad loans from the balance sheets of the bad banks which had operated disgracefully. We gave them well over the odds for the properties on which they had lent moneys recklessly. Therefore, they got away with that. They got more money and then paid ordinary citizens through the suffering imposed on them. We then took €60 billion of taxpayers' money and put it into the banks for their so-called "recapitalisation". What are we left with? We are left with 180,000 families in difficulty. That may not be anything to the Minister of State, but there are 180,000 families in mortgage distress. What has been done for them? Absolutely zilch. The bankers got €60 billion of our money, but the people got nothing in return.

The Government then turned €30 billion of taxpayer's money, in the form of a promissory note, into sovereign bonds and again placed it on the shoulders of the people of the State. Further dodgy banking debt - €30 billion - was put on the shoulders of the taxpayer.

The Minister of State went on to say the Irish nation had suffered the shame and indignity of having to be bailed out. The people were not bailed out by anybody. We had to borrow money from the troika; there was no free money given to us. The troika charged us interest on the money it lent to us; therefore, there was no free ticket for the people and we were not bailed out. The only people who were bailed out were the bankers, the speculators and the bondholders who got back every single cent they had invested. It is the people, as the Minister of State rightly said, who have suffered. While it is welcome that we are going to have a banking inquiry, let us at least face up to responsibility for what happened; let the Government face up to its responsibility. It, too, failed the people. It also put money into the banks, extended the bank guarantee and took taxpayer's money, borrowed money, as well as money that had been put away in the National Pensions Reserve Fund for a rainy day, and put it into the banks. The Minister of State might be dismissive and choose to sit with a bored expression on his face because he does not like hearing the truth, but that is the reality. The reality is that the suffering which he accepts has happened is having an unbearable impact on many families in the State. While it is welcome that the banking inquiry will examine the details of what happened, we recognise that it will not undo the damage done by this and the previous Government. All of the pain taken will not be undone by it. All of the money the Government put into the banks will not be undone through it. None of this will be undone. That will only happen if we get a deal at European Union level to retrospectively recapitalise the banks and let taxpayers get the money back and be relieved of the debt on their shoulders which should never have been put on them in the first place. The Minister of State has a brass neck in coming here to proclaim this as a triumph, something we should all celebrate and that will be meaningful to the people. At the end of the day, the only thing that will mean anything to them is if they get the money back that they put into the banks in the first place. Undoing the damage that the Minister of State's party, the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil did to the State is what we really need. We need a banking deal. While the banking inquiry is important in its own right, a banking deal is the big prize we should be pursuing.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator should ask his party leader to tell the truth.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State. I also welcome the establishment of the banking inquiry. In response to Senator David Cullinane, had the Sinn Féin economic model been used, the suffering the people would be enduring today would be significantly worse.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They were robbing banks when everyone else was saving.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister of State might name those who were robbing banks. Let him name names.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government has turned around the economic situation where the country was not in a position to borrow a tosser when it took office. We negotiated a deal that got the country back on its feet. We had to endure having the troika in the country for two and a half years, but we have exited the bailout successfully.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator should look at the Fianna Fáil Senators - that is where the problem lies. They made the mess, not us.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Michael Mullins to continue, without interruption, please.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is still a legacy debt issue to be addressed, but I have every confidence, as do most Members of the House, in the Minister for Finance and his Government colleagues who are working to reduce our indebtedness. The game is by not over by a long shot, but what we are here to discuss is the establishment of the banking inquiry which will examine how the country got into such an awful mess. Its aim is to find out how the political, regulatory and banking systems broke down to such an extent that the country was left on its knees. Lives have been destroyed; homes have been repossessed; businesses have been lost, and the people are entitled to know how the system imploded to such an extent.

Senator John Crown hit the nail on the head when he spoke about bank managers and officials being paid to sell money to people who were not in a position to repay it. That is a significant element of the difficulties encountered. Those of us who are older remember dealing with bank managers many years ago to negotiate a mortgage on a house. We knew that if we did not have 20% of the price of the house as a deposit, we would not get a mortgage. We also knew that we would not be able to borrow more than 2.5 times our household income. We criticised bank managers in those days for being too tough, but that was how the banking system should have been run. That is not what happened and we need to get all of the details of what went wrong on the fateful night the bank guarantee was given and in the period leading up to it. I have no doubt the Members of the Oireachtas who will sit on the committee of inquiry will do a fine job in an impartial and non-partisan manner. That is what they were elected to do. They were elected to serve the people and get answers for them.

We would have liked the inquiry to have been established much sooner, but the people, in their wisdom, decided not to give Oireachtas Members the authority to do so when the question was put to them in a referendum. We are now heading towards a situation where we will get answers. I hope we will also put in place structures for the future to ensure the debacle we have seen in the past seven or eight years will not be repeated and that the people will never again have to go through the hardship they are now experiencing. It is encouraging that, at last, after two and a half years of tough decisions but good and honest governance, we are beginning to see the economy turn around. Over 60,000 jobs have been created in the past year, or rather the Government has created the climate to allow these jobs to be created. We are beginning to see confidence return.

I know that the Minister of State will take back the message from the Seanad that we all want to see the Minister for Finance achieve a deal on some of the legacy debt which would ease the pressure further. We must acknowledge the significant reductions in debt levels already achieved by the Government in its two and half years in office. The deal on the promissory notes and other aspects of our lending must also be acknowledged.

In commending the motion to the House I have no doubt that the Members we will entrust with responsibility for conducting the inquiry will serve the people well and will deliver their report in a timely fashion. We do not want to see an inquiry dragging on for too long and wish the participants well. The Members who have been selected from the Dáil are all extremely competent, conscientious and hardworking and I have every confidence that the two Members who will be selected from this House will also make a fine contribution to the long-overdue and badly needed banking inquiry.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ní raibh sé i gceist agam labhairt ar an rún seo, ach bhí sé an-deacair fanacht i mó shuí agus mé ag éisteacht leis an raiméis atá ar bun ag daoine ón Rialtas. Listening to the guff from some Senators on the Government side brought me to my feet. I had not intended to speak in this debate, but there are quite a number of heads in the sand in dealing with the implications of the financial crisis as we see them while out canvassing.

It is important to note that Sinn Féin was the only party in the lead-up to the general election in 2007 which stood back from the melee of voices in Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Labour Party and the Green Party calling for bubble-type policies, including a reduction in stamp duty rates, in order that more people would be able to buy overpriced houses and get themselves into unsustainable debt in the process. It is laughable that Senator Michael Mullins has the audacity to castigate Sinn Féin's economic policies when his party is starting to talk about implementing some of them while in government.

We have also been talking about a financial transaction tax for quite a number of years, which was laughed out of Houses, but all of a sudden it seems to have been put back on the table now the Government has run out of things to tax, after water, houses, septic tanks have been taxed. One cannot go much lower than that.

The Government is very slow to turn around and tax the people -----

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is good value for €5.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is possibly good value now but what will the cost be in the long run?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator and his colleagues were talking about it costing between €500 and €600.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How come we have not seen any of the money collected from the property and other taxes being put into fixing the sewerage and water systems that need to be fixed across rural Ireland?

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are doing the best for you.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator without interruption.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why does the Government keep going back into the pockets of the ordinary citizens of Ireland instead of going after the banking classes and the people who made money during the bubble? We do not see any of these people being taxed. Why has the Government not implemented the wealth tax, as the Sinn Féin Party has suggested? The Members opposite know quite well that if they are calling our economic policies laughable, they are casting aspersions on the figures that have been given by the Department of Finance. Every single element in the Sinn Féin pre-budget submission was costed by the Department of Finance. All of our measures were implementable but the bottom line is that we have had conservative government going bing and bong, both the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael parties have engaged in party political politics since the State was set up. This has maintained the status quoand kept certain classes in power in the banks and in all strata of Irish society. Certain classes have always pulled together in times of crisis and have looked after their own and have made the citizens pay when the charges come in.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Labour Party will pay next week. It will pay a big price.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who will be smiling then?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have discussed the legacy debts, but that is an issue on which we have failed utterly to get a proper deal. It is about time the Government tried to do that.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Your colleague?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is interesting that with the forthcoming European elections, as an example, if one takes the constituency that I am based in, there was no dissenting voice. Not one of the MEPs from that area was against the deals that were being done on the banking debt. That is the reason we need a Sinn Féin voice in that area. We need to have a Sinn Féin voice in each of the European constituencies.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That from the party that voted against everything to do with Europe.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Ó Clochartaigh without interruption.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a difference between voting against everything and having a critical voice.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sinn Féin voted against everything. Then it complains.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think a critical voice is what we need. Somebody must stand up for the rights of Irish citizens in Europe.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Instead of banging Europe.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Ó Clochartaigh without interruption.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Members do not like it when we are telling them the truth.

What about the approximately 400,000 emigrants who had to leave Ireland because of what the banking crisis did to Ireland and what has happened to the State? That is an absolute disgrace. The previous Government drove them out in their droves but this has been the answer the Government has had to the unemployment crisis - drive people out to lower the unemployment figures.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have created jobs.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The number of jobs created is going up.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If it was not for the pressure cooker scenario -----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Ó Clochartaigh without interruption.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If it were not for the 400,000 people leaving this country the unemployment figures would be much worse. Most of these people did not want to leave. It was not a lifestyle choice in most cases. It is absolutely sickening to hear the mealy-mouthed Government platitudes such as, "We all suffered, is it not terrible?", when the reality is that the ordinary citizens of Ireland have had to-----

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have had no mealy-mouthed platitudes.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask Senator Ó Clochartaigh to conclude.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator O'Keeffe had no problem castigating Senator Ó Domhnaill when she was on her feet.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Senator Ó Clochartaigh conclude?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The banking inquiry is welcome and we support it. However, it does not forgive all the political sins that have been committed by this Government and the previous Government.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Members for their contributions. I compliment some Members for speaking sense. The members of the Sinn Féin Party did not speak to the motion but wanted to attack the Government on the decisions that have had to be made in the past number of years.

I presume if we had to follow the logic of the Sinn Féin economic policies, which were drafted on the back of a fag box in a smoke filled room, when perhaps other matters were being discussed -----

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let the Minister of State tell us.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that how the Fine Gael Party does it?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There will be plenty to tell that story in the future.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

From the Department of Finance?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Sinn Féin Party thrives on misery, doom and gloom. It gives no lift to the people. We are talking about positivity. We are creating 1,000 jobs a week.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Positivity does not feed anybody.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Some of the decisions that this Government has made in the past three year must be right as 1,000 jobs are being created a week, when only three or four years ago we were loosing 1,000 jobs a week. We are now borrowing money at rates that we were unable to get three years ago. We must be doing something right.

Only last week I heard a discussion on the national radio discussing the position of Sinn Féin in the North and Sinn Féin in the South. The Sinn Féin public representative on that occasion said, that is up there. That is the sort of economic policies that the party wants. It will say one thing in the South and will do the direct opposite in the North.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister has not spoken about the social welfare cuts.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We want the banking inquiry to work. If the Sinn Féin member of that committee goes in with that sort of attitude, he or she would be far better off the committee. I might not agree with everything that Senator Ó Domhnaill said, in particular when he said the inquiry will have no teeth. The inquiry has teeth. I would love if it had more teeth. If the referendum had been passed in 2011, the committee would have had real teeth. We had to re-examine how we would conduct an inquiry and introduced a Bill last year to set up this committee of inquiry.

I hope this committee will sit as soon as possible. There will be a scoping exercise for a number of months and then it can commit to hearings in September or October 2014. I hope the committee will get all it requires from the Oireachtas. I thank the officials for the work they have carried out in drawing up the Standing Orders of this committee. We need to ensure that the committee will have the legal and other resources to ensure it can carry out the work in a professional manner.

We have a history when a committee carried out similar work to what is proposed in the banking inquiry. The DIRT inquiry was a very successful exercise. From the evidence of the way the committees carry out their work, I believe that committees are better resourced now than they were in the past and they are able to do much more work. I believe this is a start of what may be termed investigatory work by committees.

I thank the Members for their contributions and I wish the committee the best of luck.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When is it proposed to sit again?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ar 10.30 maidin amárach.