Tony Mulcahy (Fine Gael)
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I wish to share one minute of my time with Senator Martin Conway.

I had better first declare an interest in that my child has received a service from the group I am about to mention. I will not second-guess the Minister's reply, but I do not imagine we will receive any great news this evening.

The group is a parents' group and the Minister of State has met them in the past. I do not need notes to speak about what the group does. I am one of the people who raise €250,000 a year to provide services for 350 children in County Clare. The lady who set up the group, Ann Norton, will not mind me putting her name on record. I remember having an argument with her eight years ago and I said the day would come when we were all older and unable to do it any more. The children get older and require more support. Without the Clare Federation in County Clare supplying those services, Clare Early Intervention Services provides only 5% of the services and supports in County Clare.

We talk about value for money, and I can guarantee that the Clare Crusaders are value for money. We do not spend any money but fund-raise ourselves, so the group must be good value for money. We do not get the same value for money from the Clare Early Intervention Services structure and we never will. The model does not work and I said as much eight years ago when it was set up under Deputy Micheál Martin. It was not going to work then and it will not work now.

I am very passionate about the children and the services they receive and the support we can give them. Last Thursday, my 21-year-old child was swimming with the group in the Auburn Lodge Hotel. There were children from 8 to 18 years and they have held onto our 21-year-old even though we said we would finish at 20 years of age. One of the two issues is the core funding needed to keep the group ticking over, which does not amount to €250,000. Between €50,000 and €100,000 will get them through this year. I ask the Minister of State to examine the new implementation framework and facilitate a meeting. Deputy Michael McNamara attended a meeting in Ennis and Senator Conway is part of the same Clare group. Local Deputies also attended. We would like to look at the model in County Clare. We do not want to turn it into the current service provider model. The Minister of State knows my views on the matter, which are that the model is too expensive and does not work. As parents, if we could set up a board of management and support the Government and the agencies and receive some support now, I would like us to be considered as a pilot group under the new implementation framework. Perhaps we can meet with the Minister of State and the representatives of the bodies involved to explain what the Clare Crusaders do.

If we are not able to continue tomorrow morning, and if no one comes along to raise funds, Clare will become a disaster in respect of disability services. Even though I have been involved with the group since its inception, I was not aware that a real problem is the failure of the HSE in County Clare to inform the HSE in Limerick and the HSE nationally that the Clare Crusaders exists and provides services. Worst of all, the HSE refers clients to the Clare Crusaders, which is a voluntary group. I do not want the standard HSE reply. A root-and-branch investigation of the Clare Crusaders must be put in front of the Minister of State, the HSE and the steering group to show people what they do. The Minister of State will see absolute value for money. Perhaps Senator Martin Conway will add to that point. I can only speak as a parent and as a representative of the group.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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There are a number of positive aspects. Senator Mulcahy has outlined the work of the Clare Crusaders, which I will not repeat.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I do not think Senator Conway can speak at this point.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mulcahy agreed to share time.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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The time is totally up.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I will not delay. The work of the Clare Crusaders, as outlined by Senator Mulcahy, is vital. There is unanimous political support across all parties and including those of no party for the Clare Crusaders to be considered a pilot group under the new system. We are looking for political leadership from the Minister of State to make sure that happens. We know the track record of the HSE. It is a big body that moves incredibly slowly. Political leadership is required to make this happen urgently. There is an awful lot of uncertainty in Clare and among the Clare Crusaders staff, who are primarily volunteers, parents and service users, and we have a responsibility to eliminate it.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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The confusion between the Senators was my fault as much anyone else's and I apologise for it. Senator Mulcahy asked if he could share time.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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The Senator needs to ask me.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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He did.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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It is no problem.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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We are at the end of the day and time constraints should not be the issue.

I would love to give the formal answer and read out the five pages prepared but that would not satisfy anyone. The prepared answer goes into Government policy, which we all know, particularly Senators Conway and Mulcahy. Some €1.4 billion is spent on disability and 80% of it goes to non-statutory agencies that deliver disability services. There are 300 agencies around the country. My prepared answer is available to any Member who wants it and it provides worthwhile information.

The big advantage we have this year is a director dealing specifically with disability and older people. He is very familiar with the area, having been the regional director of operations for HSE south. I know him well, although I was not part of the interview process and had nothing to do with it. Everyone recognises that he has in-depth knowledge of the area. His credentials are the fact that such difficulties or crises did not exist in HSE south, because Mr. Pat Healy is very capable of managing issues and is au fait with possible difficulties so that they can be dealt with as they arise.

When we concluded budgetary negotiations, he managed to get €4 million for those under 18 years of age. That is where we need to be. The issue involves the availability of a service when people need it rather than relying on a diagnosis of disability. Legally, we are still obliged to carry out a diagnosis because it is part of the Disability Act. We must also carry out an assessment of needs. The difficulty is that I can afford to have my child diagnosed at an early age by paying €600 or €1,200, and the diagnosis gives me access to services. This is unfair and unequal because some people cannot pay for a diagnosis.

The €4 million set aside for those under 18 will have a major impact on the service. We must continue to deliver a service in the community as opposed to having the service tied up with service providers. Senator Mulcahy will agree with that point and we must ensure it happens. There are groups, maybe one or two or more, providing the types of service the Clare Crusaders provide. I know about the Clare Crusaders. They are providing the service on the basis that mainstreaming is what we all want to do. It is about how people live their lives rather than how they interact with services. A combination of elements coming together will make sure we deliver the service in the way groups such as the Clare Crusaders are delivering it. Groups such as the Bray Lakers have a similar model. The legislation, in terms of capacity, will change things fundamentally for people with disabilities.

We are going to start to do things differently. I know the director has very clear ideas on how to change the service and his aim in life is to ensure that people live as normal a life as possible. I will bring to his attention the fact that the likes of Clare Crusaders do not receive any funding. I should say to both Senators that it is always tempting, when an organisation works extremely well without receiving State funding, providing a service with which everybody is happy, to tell the people involved they are doing a great job and leave it at that. I very much take on board that the group that is there now will not always be there. I suppose it needs to be more established.

I will bring the concerns of both Senators to Mr. Healy, the new director of social care, and I will ask him to look at these matters. We are confined with regard to funding and it is not like the good old days when we could go back and get more. That is not how it works any more. I will consult with the director about having a serious look at the issue. He knows the group involved. The beauty of having a director with responsibility for the service in the entire country - along with planning and development of services - is that there is a degree of flexibility. I thank the Senators for raising the matter.

Tony Mulcahy (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for not reading the five-page reply that has been distributed to us but rather answering the questions. I know her heart is in the right place with this subject. There is now an appropriate director and perhaps the group can meet him in order to sustain the project.