Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask Senator Keane to move the motion for recommittal.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I move:

That Seanad Éireann, pursuant to Standing Order 130 of the Standing Orders Relative to Public Business, directs that the Local Government Bill 2013 be recommitted to Committee Stage in respect of amendments Nos. 29 to 32, inclusive, and amendment No. 34.

David Norris (Independent)
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Can we have a reason for this? There may be something in it. If it is being recommitted to Committee Stage so that the committee can examine in a positive or even in a neutral light, then I have no difficulty with what the Senator is proposing.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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When the amendments are recommitted, the Minister will provide the reasons for the recommittal.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Amendments Nos. 29 to 32, inclusive, and amendment No. 34 are related and will be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed?

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Not agreed.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We will take them separately.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 29 addresses an omission in the published Bill. It proposes that section 45 of the Local Government Act 2001, relating to the attendance of the media and the public at local authority meetings, shall not apply in the case of the local community development committees. Although local community development committees will be local authority committees, their role and function will differ considerably from those of other local authority committees. A significant element of the local community development committees' work will be the consideration of funding applications. This work will involve confidential and commercially sensitive matters, which would not be appropriate in the presence of the media and the public.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed?

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Not agreed.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am including an amendment for definitions of both community elements and economic elements of the integrated plan to be added to section 128A.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I wish to speak to the amendment because I support the thrust of what is proposed. The Minister has outlined what he means by community elements and economic elements of the plan. I understand that it is part of the local community development committees which are being established. If we are to develop community and economic elements of a plan, that will give rise to a number of issues relating to the amendments we tabled that we have not had an opportunity to discuss as they have been ruled out of order.

One of the aspects of the Bill to which I am opposed is the merger of a number of local authorities, including in Waterford, but also in other areas without giving people the opportunity to have their say. One of the reasons I am opposed to that is because, on balance, there are different economic and community needs in the city and county of Waterford and I am concerned that if the Bill is passed and if the authorities formally amalgamate after the next local elections, in some circumstances it would be difficult to come up with community and economic plans that could cut across an entire local authority area. Perhaps what the Minister is suggesting is that each local electoral area will have its own plan. He could indicate whether that is the case. I do not wish to rehearse the previous arguments but I am genuinely concerned at the manner in which we are pushing forward with the Bill and ruling amendments out of order.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I did not do that.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I do not say it was the Minister’s doing but it has happened. The vast majority of the amendments Sinn Féin has tabled have been ruled out of order, which is unacceptable. It is not good practice that we are not prepared to have a debate on a Bill such as the one before the House. I wanted to have a discussion with the Minister with responsibility for local government on many issues, including the merger of local authorities. We were prevented from doing so on Report Stage because we were told the amendments we tabled would incur a cost on the Exchequer.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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That is a matter for the Chair.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It is outrageous that we have to use the opportunity of a Government amendment to try to squeeze some latitude from a Chairman to raise legitimate concerns about the Bill. It flies in the face of what the Minister and his party promised about a different type of governance when they were in opposition and following the election. We made exactly the same arguments when the Minister railroaded through the Water Services Bill. We were not allowed to raise the questions we wanted to ask. Amendments were ruled out of order. Questions were not answered and we see what happened since then and the debacle that has taken place.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is questioning the Chair.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I am. I have no difficulty in doing so. I am not just questioning the Chair, I am questioning the Leader of the House, the Minister and the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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If Senator Cullinane knew his Standing Orders he would know that the Leader of the House and the Minister have no say in such matters.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I am questioning the entire process because it is not fair on anybody. What I see happening is that the permanent government is preventing us as legislators from having a debate on amendments. It is telling us which amendments are in order or out of order. We are putting ourselves in a straitjacket and preventing ourselves from having a proper debate and scrutinising Bills. The debacle with Irish Water is an example of what happens when we do not have proper scrutiny. The Minister has failed to answer even simple questions about the issue. He is dodging questions. It is simply not good politics. This is the only opportunity I have to do so and I strongly put on record my opposition to again railroading through an important Bill, ruling out of order amendments which are in order and should be debated and discussed. It is a sad day for the Oireachtas and the Seanad that this has happened again. It has happened to so many Bills and here we are again carrying on with the same sort of nonsense.

In the context of the Minister telling us that this Bill is about improving democracy and adding value to existing democracy, we have the charade of not being able to debate many of the provisions in the Bill or not being able to amend them. Even if the Government disagreed with them the Minister could at least listen to us and have the courtesy to allow us to table an amendment and have a debate on the issues. The Government is not even prepared to allow that to happen.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Senator Cullinane is inaccurate in saying the Government has ruled amendments out of order. It is not the Government’s decision to rule amendments out of order.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Senator Cullinane should know all about that in Northern Ireland where there is a permanent government to which Sinn Féin is subservient.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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We are not subservient at all. Far from it.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I wish to clarify that under the new section 66 provisions, local authorities and local community development committees are tasked with preparing integrated local economic and community plans. I would have thought Senator Cullinane would welcome that the community plans would be part of the economic and community planning that would take place in each local authority area. This is the first time for that to happen. It is the first time for the community and voluntary sector to have a statutory remit to align itself with local government in order to have its voice heard. Senator Cullinane does not want to acknowledge anything we are doing.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The Minister has cut the legs from the local community development sector.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Control has been given to apparatchiks.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am surprised Senator Cullinane does not acknowledge what is being done.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The people who work in the sector know it.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I know Senator Cullinane does not like freedom of speech but I am surprised that he does not acknowledge that the work we are doing in the Bill has already resulted in a 20% reduction in the cost of employing people in Waterford city. Savings have been made on the merger which Senator Cullinane opposed, including in Sinn Féin’s recent budget. It is a clear indication that Senator Cullinane is not in favour of employment or competitiveness.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should get his facts right. I did not oppose anything.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, I should have said Senator Cullinane’s party. These plans will have economic and community elements which will be prepared separately but in parallel. Consequently, the provisions in the Bill relating to the development of a local and community plan are to be replaced by the new provisions.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Amendments Nos. 31, 32 and 34 provide for specific references to the plan we just spoke about in section 128B to be replaced by reference to "the community elements of the plan" or those elements of the plan as the case may be.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I wish to respond to something the Minister said about the community element of a plan. I do not have a difficulty with that in principle but I object to the way the community development sector has been treated not just by the Government but by the previous Government.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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That has nothing to do with the amendment.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It does.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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That point related to amendment No. 31.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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With respect, I am speaking on amendment No. 31.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 32 refers to substituting "those elements of the plan".

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Okay, but I am responding to something the Minister said which is relevant to the amendment.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Senator Cullinane could have come back in to speak on the matter at the time.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It does the same thing. I just make the point that the community development sector has had the legs cut from under it, as have many other sectors, first, because of cuts in funding and, second, because the voluntary boards of management were dissolved.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Senator Cullinane-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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There are no cuts in funding.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Senator Cullinane said all that before in response to amendment No. 30.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I did not.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Senator Cullinane did.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I did not make those points. The Government is giving local government responsibility for community development when it should be coming from the bottom up.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Local government is at the bottom.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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No. The people who work in the community development sector want autonomy from local government. They would work in partnership with local government.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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What about the elected representatives?

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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They would work in partnership with local government but would not be dictated to by local government. What the Minister is doing is taking power away from local communities and giving it to officials in local authorities. The previous Government started the process and the Government is continuing with the same logic - surprise, surprise. The vast majority of people whom I meet who work in the community development sector agree with what I say because they have suffered as a consequence of it. Volunteers on the ground are no longer available because they are not valued by the Government. That is the reality. They always feared that would happen; that they would be pushed under the control of some arm of Government and their autonomy would be removed from them. While it might be a good thing in some respects that there is a community element to the plan the Minister completely ignores the reality on the ground for the vast majority of community development projects and the people who work in them.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Senator Cullinane should acknowledge that locally-elected representatives with a democratic mandate from the people are the most important people on the ground with whom one should consult. We are valuing them by giving them more responsibility. They are the people whom I support. The community sector will have to go to local authorities and work with them.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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To use the Minister’s term, they will have to be subservient to them.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No. Senator Cullinane might be well used to being subservient in the manner in which his party deals with opposition in the community, in particular in Northern Ireland but we do not subscribe to that view.

We are aligning the community sector with local government to ensure that the elected person, who has a mandate from the people, is centre stage and has the more powerful voice.

There has been no cut in the local community development programme in 2014 over and above 2013, so there is no difficulty with the funding. What we are trying to do is to ensure the community sector and the local government can pool their resources in difficult financial situations and times to be able to get the maximum benefit for the people they and we represent.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 33 has been ruled out of order.