Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, to the House. I am not a wholehearted advocate of direct provision as a means of housing people who are seeking asylum in this country, many of whom are in a distressed state. I have been to two of these centres and was not at all impressed with what I saw. We have responsibilities and duties as a State to respect and protect people who come here seeking asylum and to ensure that regard is given to their sense of integrity, belonging and decency.

What I saw in the two centres I visited was people putting their best foot forward. The visits were arranged, with the centre management aware well in advance of our attendance. I suspect we might have seen many different things if we had arrived unannounced. Other public representatives who have visited direct provision centres over the years have told me they were met with aggression when they sought to speak to residents alone and hear their concerns.

As a country, millions of our people have emigrated over many decades. Some were treated extremely well and have prospered and enriched the countries to which they migrated. Others were not so lucky and were treated very badly. We have all heard the stories of the signs in the windows of business premises proclaiming "No dogs, no Irish". Are we as a society prepared to stand over a system where people who come to our country to seek refuge are not properly respected but are instead made to feel humiliated, isolated and degraded? That is what is happening in this country at this time. It is a national scandal. Coming generations will look back in shame at how we treated people in this situation.

An all-party Seanad committee has been establish to examine the system of direct provision, make some waves and, at the very least, give the people concerned a voice. Various non-governmental organisations are doing good work in this area, but they have essentially been voiceless in so far as their efforts do not seem to have attracted the type of popular support for which one would have hoped. I acknowledge the efforts of my friend and colleague, Senator Jillian van Turnhout, in this area. She is a member of the Seanad all-party committee, as are Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh and others.

As a start in terms of tackling this issue, and it is nothing more than a start, I am calling for a provision whereby elected Members of the Oireachtas would be able to knock on the door of any of the 30 plus centres, present their identification and be able to gain access to speak to residents and examine the facilities. A model in this regard is the well-established prison visiting committee system in all prisons in this country. Some of those committees work well while others do not. Committee members can turn up, with their identification, and gain access to the facilities at any time of the day or night. I propose that any new contract that is issued to providers of direct provision services - I understand these matters come under the remit of the Reception and Integration Agency - should include a provision whereby any Member of the Oireachtas, with proper identification, would be facilitated to perform random inspections of the premises and to speak in confidence to residents and hear their concerns.

As I said, our treatment of asylum seekers is an issue on which future generations will look back and be very ashamed. I am not sure of the Minister of State's view on this matter, but I know she is a compassionate person. It is a pity the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, is not here to respond. He had a great deal to say on this issue when he was in opposition. I would like to see him implement some of the proposals he put forward when he was on the other side of the House. It is amazing how people who go into government seem to end up allowing advisers to mute their instincts and beliefs. Sometimes in politics, as in life, hard decisions have to be made and leadership must be shown. Sometimes one must throw caution to the wind and tell officials how it is to be done. There is an imperative to do the right thing. As a first small step in this regard, Oireachtas Members, on the basis of their mandate from the people, should be able to present at direct provision centres - which, after all, are funded by the taxpayer - perform an inspection and thereafter report back to Parliament as they see fit.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am responding on behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter. The Minister acknowledges that Senator Conway has been part of a delegation which visited centres in Galway in October, which visits were well facilitated by the people concerned.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They had prior notice.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister of State, without interruption

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister has concerns regarding the Senator's proposal that all Members of the Oireachtas would have unrestricted access to any one of the 34 asylum accommodation centres under contract to the Reception and Integration Agency.

The Minister is conscious of the need to balance the right sought in this Adjournment motion with the rights of residents and the need for proper management of the centres. He is concerned that unrestricted access might not be appropriate for a number of reasons, not least the rights of asylum seekers resident in these centres to their privacy and the obligations placed on the service providers. The centres are privately run, operating under contract to RIA. Those contracts provide for unannounced visits in circumstances where these are both necessary and appropriate. An example of such a circumstance would be where access to the centre is needed by RIA officials and by private independent inspectors under contract to RIA for the purpose of carrying out inspections. Of course, all centres are equally subject to unannounced inspections by other State bodies, for example, environmental health officers and fire safety inspectors have a right to inspect RIA accommodation centres without notice. All completed inspections carried out in RIA centres after 1 October 2013 will be published on RIA's website, ria.gov.ie.

Of necessity, unannounced visits would have to take account of RIA's child protection policies which require,inter alia, the need for prior vetting. The Minister would be concerned that if Members were being accompanied by other interested parties, such as media or non-governmental organisations, NGOs, this requirement would have to be complied with. Of course, these centres are publicly funded, but so are many other facilities to which access rights for Members of the Oireachtas would never be sought or contemplated. These are people's homes and their privacy must be respected.

While the Minister has no doubt of the bona fides behind what is proposed in this Adjournment matter, he does not believe it would be appropriate to accede to it. However, he is happy to deal with requests for visits in the same way as they have been dealt with to date, and he will continue to seek to facilitate any requests that are made to him, consistent with the need to meet other demands on RIA and on individual centres.

The Senator made his case very strongly. Unfortunately, the Minister could not attend to hear it but I will convey the sentiments the Senator has expressed. The point about privacy is valid, but perhaps there are other ways of meeting the residents without having to invade their privacy.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I assure the Minister of State that I am not shooting the messenger. However, I believe the Minister has made the wrong decision on this. There is nothing as powerful as transparency. Of course appropriate protocols would have to be put in place to which people who participated in such visits would have to adhere, and of course there are child protection criteria. Any Oireachtas Member with a keen interest in this issue would take significant cognisance of child protection and whatever vetting is necessary. I would not envisage a scenario where an Oireachtas Member would show up at a centre and show his or her identification at 2 a.m. That would be totally inappropriate. It would also be inappropriate for a Member of the Oireachtas to turn up with a journalist. The Member would probably be accompanied by another Member of the Oireachtas.

There is a significant issue of transparency involved here. Many people and NGOs do not believe these centres are run to the highest possible standard. Simple things can be done to make life a great deal easier. Reputable journalists such as Carl O'Brien have written extensively about this issue. We cannot bury our heads in the sand and pretend it does not exist.

I am disappointed with the reply, but I will continue to advocate, along with my colleagues on the working group. We will meet to discuss this reply and an appropriate response will be made in due course.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand the Senator intended to share time with Senator van Turnhout.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I support Senator Conway. I believe there is a middle ground and a protocol could be put in place. While RIA has been very good at accommodating visits, it has taken several months to organise them. There should be a facilitated process whereby we could organise them without delay, at the very least.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will convey to the Minister the views expressed by both Senators, including the suggestion that there might be a middle ground and a way of establishing protocols that would facilitate what they seek.