Seanad debates

Tuesday, 25 June 2013

2:30 pm

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 38, motion regarding the Employment Equality Act 1998 (Section 12) (Church of Ireland College of Education) Order 2013; No. 1, motion regarding the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 (Restricted Electrical Works) Regulations 2013, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 38 without debate; No. 2, Social Welfare and Pensions (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2013 - Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken on the conclusion of No. 1 and to conclude no later than 6 p.m.; and No. 3, Health (Amendment) Bill 2013 - Committee Stage, to be taken at 6 p.m.

As no Committee Stage amendments to the Health (Amendment) Bill have been submitted, and if no further amendments are proposed for Report Stage, I suggest to the House that we deal with Committee and Remaining Stages of that Bill this evening, subject to the agreement of the House. If the House has an objection to that we can have Report Stage on another day.

I know that the shocking revelations in the Anglo Irish Bank telephone conversation recordings have caused anger and resentment and will no doubt be raised on the Order of Business. However, I ask Members to be very careful not to say anything to prejudice what is likely to be a most complex and technical case to be taken in the Irish courts. I ask Members to bear that in mind. I know the anger that people have in that regard.

2:35 pm

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader has made a sensible suggestion for dealing with the Health (Amendment) Bill and we would have no difficulty with taking Committee and Remaining Stages today.

I agree with the Leader. All of us are absolutely disgusted and horrified by what we heard in the recent revelations. I will not comment further on them for the very reason the Leader mentioned because we all need to be careful with regard to how future investigations are carried out. While Senator Gilroy might have a problem with this, I remember previous cases where utterances were made in the Oireachtas-----

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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We were not in government.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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----- that prejudiced subsequent court cases. We need to be aware that there are ongoing investigations by the Garda, the Director of Corporate Enforcement and the Financial Regulator. While they are very important, we all agree that the public deserve answers.

I heard the Minister, Deputy Howlin, speak on the radio this morning. It is important that whatever investigation is established is robust and has the proper terms of reference to deal with this. We will need to discuss how that can best be done, whether it is through an Oireachtas committee or a commission of investigation. However, we need to have powers to be able to come to conclusions on this matter. This will certainly play out in the coming days. All of us are disgusted with it and the citizens deserve answers in this regard. It will move on in the next few days and I encourage the Government to establish as speedily as possible the banking inquiry in whatever guise is best to get the results and the answers we require.

I welcome the reversal of the cut in resource hours that was announced three weeks ago by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn. The additional 12% cut in resource teaching hours has been overturned. I was interested to note that one could overturn a cut that apparently was not actually a cut in the first place because the Government argued at the time that this was not a cut. However, what is important is that the children who require these extra resource-teaching hours will get them. I bring to colleagues' attention that the Minister has not reversed the cuts to the special needs assistants. I welcome that the Minister was able to go to Cabinet and find the additional moneys to ensure that resource hours were given to children who need them. However, some 22,000 children have special needs assistants. That figure has increased from 20,000 last year.

That cut has not been reversed. I encourage the Minister, Deputy Quinn, to ensure that children with special needs, who often have distinct and difficult learning disabilities, are not affected. While I welcome the reversal of part of this cut, which is important, I ask colleagues opposite to examine the detail of it because the cut to special needs assistants' hours has not been reversed, and that must happen. The Seanad played a role in this. We raised it here first on the Order of Business last Tuesday.

2:40 pm

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It was raised by a number of colleagues on all sides of the House, including Senator Mary Ann O'Brien and many others. This is too important an issue to let go. The Minister should go further and ensure that the cuts to special needs assistants' hours are also reversed.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank the Leader for anticipating that a great deal of concern and anger would be expressed today on the floor of the House at the revelations contained in the tapes that have been broadcast which came into the possession of the Irish Independent concerning the executives of Anglo Irish Bank. We would all share the grave concern and anger that everyone is feeling on hearing the content of those tapes but I think we all agree that it is imperative that there is a robust inquiry into the background to the tapes and the events around the tapes. It assists us now in knowing that these tapes exist and that there is this method of establishing, to a greater degree of certainty, what was really going on around the events of the dreadful bank guarantee in September 2008. If there is any positive to be taken from this it is that we may have greater assistance and there may be more objective material available to assist in proving what happened than we had previously thought. That is a positive. It is not only a robust civil inquiry we require of whatever type, be it a commission of inquiry or an Oireachtas inquiry. It is also important that the Garda and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement are given every resource necessary to enable them investigate any criminal offences that may have been committed.

I welcome the announcement today by the Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, that the level of resource teachers available to students with special educational needs will be retained at 2012-13 levels. It is a good day for special education, which is an area the Labour Party has passionately defended since coming into office. It is welcome that the Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, has today secured Cabinet agreement to release 500 additional teaching posts to schools this September to cope with the unpredicted rise in the demand for these resources. I know he fought at Cabinet to ring-fence the spending in this area in line with his, and the Labour Party's, long-standing commitment. However, he is also setting up a review, and that is important, as to the reason the rise in demand for special needs resources of 12% is so much greater than the rise in the school population of 1.3%. The review group is to report in a timely fashion in September, and that will be very useful to us in terms of allocation of future resources.

I ask the Leader for a debate on patronage and on increased provision of multidenominational schooling. I know others have called for that previously, and that we have had some debate on this. In that context I want to welcome the announcement by the Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, of a premises for the Portobello Educate Together national school, a new multidenominational school opening in the Dublin 8 area. I have been very involved with that. I am chair of the interim board, and we are delighted that we have a premises secured at Harcourt Terrace for that school.

Photo of Mary Ann O'BrienMary Ann O'Brien (Independent)
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To take up Senator O'Brien's comment about the special needs assistants, SNAs, and the resource teaching hours, which I welcome, am I right in assuming that SNAs help people with special needs to be there to be educated? It is wonderful that we have the resource teachers in place but the SNAs help those people in great need to take part in the education. The Minister has made a mistake. He has one half of the jigsaw in place, and I was excited when I heard about it, but unfortunately a big part of the jigsaw is missing. I ask that he might put the other piece of the jigsaw in place at next week's Cabinet meeting.

I congratulate Crumlin and Temple Street hospitals on the world-class fund-raising initiative they have just launched, which I am sure all Members have seen. It is called Heaven Cent. It is a wonderful website and wonderful marketing, which I am sure is costing them a fair deal of money.

This is instead of having the much-needed children's hospital which was promised by 2014. It now looks like it will be 2018, and if I were a betting person judging on the track record so far I would say it might be 2020 before we get our new hospital. Three hospitals, in Tallaght, Crumlin and Temple Street, must maintain front-line services in children's medicine. Metaphorically speaking, the hospitals in Crumlin and Temple Street must fund-raise and pay for marketeers and websites to pay for fixing the leaks in the roof. Between 1996 and 1998 my sick child was in Crumlin many times and I used to sleep under the bed. The father of a seven year old boy, who was nursed by the Jack and Jill foundation when he was a baby and is in Crumlin again told me things have not improved in the hospital. The child was in a two-bed room and the mother of the little girl who was also in the room was sleeping under her bed. This boy's father, Declan, is 6 ft. 2 ins. tall and could not fit under the bed so had to sleep opposite the bed with his head under the sink.

The hospital in Crumlin is outstanding but this is happening in 2013. The Cathaoirleach will ask me what is my point. I would like the Leader to seek assurance and an update from the Minister. In business we use the phrase "critical path" to mean having certainty about dates when things will happen. What is the Minister's strategy and what are his clear plans for the children's hospital?

With regard to the Anglo Irish Bank tapes, my company, Lily O'Brien's, had a problem with the bank a few years ago. I know every conversation is taped. Why on earth did it take so long for us to hear these tapes?

2:50 pm

Photo of Mary Ann O'BrienMary Ann O'Brien (Independent)
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I hope I am not saying anything incorrect but can we make certain there are consequences and that those responsible for this end up where they should?

Photo of John CrownJohn Crown (Independent)
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I will preface my request for an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister for Finance come to the House today and outline not only the timing but the terms of reference of the clearly much-needed banking inquiry, by reminding colleagues of one or two facts. Recently we spoke about drugs for malignant melanoma and we estimated treating every patient in the country would cost €3 million or €4 million. Senator Mary Ann O'Brien has just spoken about the national children's hospital, the cost of which is estimated to be approximately €700 million. The cost of running St. Vincent's Hospital for one year is approximately €170 million. Every day for the next five years, if the repayments are amortised over that period, we will pay €30 million a day in compensation for the obligations we assumed with the bank debts. This equates to €600,000 or €700,000 an hour. One can do the arithmetic oneself. We could buy the drug for everybody who requires it for melanoma every day for the next five years with one day of the expenditure we pay on the bank. We would pay for the cost of the national children's hospital with three weeks of repayments. We all know this and I am probably not being very original when I say it but it is important that while everybody is very fixed on outrage, justice and, perhaps, revenge, people must understand the consequences of the bank problem are real, palpable and affect many people throughout the country. I am not even speaking about the social welfare implications, lost lives, emigration or lost businesses.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of John CrownJohn Crown (Independent)
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I have called for a debate today. I compliment good Leitrim man Paul Williams for unearthing the story. Why did it take five years?

Photo of John CrownJohn Crown (Independent)
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If everybody knew these tapes exist why did it take five years? We heard statements from senior Government officials stating they did not even know the tapes existed. We need an inquiry. The reason for my typical quixotic tilting at windmills attempt to have a debate on the subject today is not because I am fixated on the punishment. People may have to be offered degrees of immunity from certain aspects of the consequences of prosecution to get to the bottom of the story.

There is a much more important thing we need to do. We need to work out how we can lessen the harm that has been occasioned by this. I am told by people who know much more about economics than I do, and basically we are a nation of expert economists at this stage, that we cannot actually get the money back. That said, are we in a position to use it as a moral negotiating tool when asking the ESM to look at the interest rate it is charging us, which is costing us millions per week, for the recapitalisation of our banks retrospectively. The question we must ask is-----

2:55 pm

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Those are points the Senator can make during the debate. I call Senator Burke.

Photo of John CrownJohn Crown (Independent)
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-----if we have an inquiry, whether we can subpoena Mr. Trichet and the members of the European Central Bank? Can we get the equivalent of a freedom of information request to the ECB to get all of their documents because we need to know what they knew about the true state of the Irish banks and whether they brought pressure to bear on our Minister and Government at the time to undertake a guarantee which they knew and we did not know was going to handicap us for between 30 to 50 years. For that reason, I am asking that we amend the Order of Business and ask the Minister for Finance to come to this House. I will be pressing that.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the report from the National Perinatal Epidemiology Centre in Cork which deals with the management of maternity care in 19 of the 20 maternity hospitals throughout Ireland. The report quite clearly shows that Ireland is up among the best as regards the standard of care internationally. Over the past 12 months the debate on maternity services was such to infer maternity care was not of a high standard in Ireland. The report is very important in regard to dealing with this issue. I ask the Leader to request the Minister for Health to make the information in this report widely available to the public. We need to rebuild confidence in the maternity services. The figures produced show that the perinatal mortality rate is 6.6 per thousand, which is a very good international standard. The report highlights that the perinatal mortality rate among ethnic minorities is higher and the maternity services will need to deal with this issue. This report provides good information that should be made widely available to rebuild public confidence in the maternity services, given debates on the area over the past 12 months, and I ask that this be done.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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In 2009, I wrote an article about the banks entitled "A person of no consequence" for The Irish Times. I am telling Members about it today because the article is more relevant than ever at this time. I believe we are people of no consequence as the tapes of the conversations among bankers have comprehensively revealed. We know now, with a certain outstanding evidence, that the Anglo Irish Bank financial swindle, the reckless national deceit, the appearance and reality sham, and the collar and tie financial disloyalty is that of an Anglo Irish Bank kind of financial subversion. I am not surprised, and how could I be, because all of the banks, Anglo Irish Bank, Allied Irish Banks, Bank of Ireland, Irish Life and Permanent and Irish Nationwide Building Society rank first and top of a hooligan pile. None is exempt. They have been paid for operating publicly and yet in the shadows, and, especially when it was done over recent years, fraudulently, abusively, recklessly, without proper governance, without internal or external regulations and without profit limitation. For me, as a Senator in this country in 2013, it ranks as the greatest, the most revolting, the most offensive and probably the most immoral travesty of our time, because it is financial power perverted.

If I were to ask the question, "Who runs the country?", the answer is the banks. The banks run the country. Everyone else is either a boy, a monkey or a person of no consequence. Unless this seat of power, the Seanad, and the seat of power, the Lower House of the Dáil does something about it, as Senator Crown has suggested, we will remain, as we have done for the past five years, people of no consequence. Will the House bring the Minister for Finance into the Seanad in order that we can ask him what he will do about out this matter?

3:00 pm

Photo of John KellyJohn Kelly (Labour)
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We were all disgusted and flabbergasted by the revelations of what went on within Anglo Irish Bank. To a certain degree, I have sympathy for the previous Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan, who was an honourable man, but it is clear that he and the Central Bank were being manipulated by the bankers. In light of all of that, and with the benefit of hindsight, we enacted into law a Personal Insolvency Bill which gives the banks a veto over the proposals and recommendations of a personal insolvency practitioner. Before it is operational and, therefore, too late, we should revisit the Bill. My gut instinct tells me that if we had been privy to what we have been privy in the past two days, we would not have voted to give the bankers that veto. I propose that we discuss this issue with the Minister for Finance and suggest that we introduce a further Bill that would propose to take away the veto we gave to those bankers before it is too late. That is very important and must be dealt with immediately.

Photo of Sean BarrettSean Barrett (Independent)
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I second Senator Crown's motion on the suspension of Standing Orders. The Minister for Finance should come to this House to tell us the terms of reference for the inquiry. Mr. Jean-Claude Trichet should also come here. We need to know what the accountants and auditors were up to during all of this and why the traditional reticence of civil servants in Ireland in regard to spending and husbanding the nation's resources was suspended on an evening when €64 billion walked out the front door of Government Buildings. This has taken far too long. I commend whoever found the tapes and gave them to the media because it has put an urgency into this matter. We always knew Anglo Irish Bank was a bank for about 18 people. I was never able to figure out how it exercised an inordinate control over the Department of Finance and the Central Bank and why it became the role model for banks which, since 1783, had been run sensibly. It is time to draw all this affair into an inquiry and find out what caused so much damage to this country.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate our Leader on the election of his son to the historic office of mayor of the ancient city of Waterford and I wish the new mayor well.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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I did not know about that.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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This is the first I have heard of it.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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The Independents did not know about it.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It was reported.

I agree with the Leader and with Senator Darragh O'Brien, leader of the Opposition, in regard to their words of caution lest any of us might prejudice any case that might arise from both the Garda inquiries and those of the Director of Public Prosecutions, which I understand are continuing in many cases, regarding the revelations made in these tapes. We must ask why did the leak occur now, so many years later. Who is at work behind the scenes and for what reason? Of course the public deserves answers. We need to establish why there was a failure to explain the facts surrounding our banks' collapse, and the need for the guarantee. It looks now as though the Government of the day was codded, hoodwinked and lied to. Very serious matters are involved regarding Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide, and perhaps others.

As the Taoiseach stated, he has no paperwork to inform or advise him as between the banks of the time and the Government of the time. Perhaps there are more tapes. We need a proper inquiry and I support the calls made in that regard, as I always have. It is coming very late but is still needed. We have had the reports of Watson, Regling and others. Perhaps what we have had will be able to serve as a book, or books, of evidence, in regard to that inquiry. It will need tight terms of reference. We have been guaranteed that the Government is dealing with it, will continue to do so, and will have in place legislation before we rise for the summer recess. I wish that work well.

3:05 pm

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I join with other speakers in again calling for a debate on the banking system and the need for a banking inquiry. The vast majority of people in the State would not be at all surprised about what is on the Anglo tapes, and the matter reaffirms what people already knew. It angers people and the public is disgusted by it. People are galled by this and they see it as a travesty, as was noted earlier. What happened in the banks was criminal. What really angers people is that those responsible for not only collapsing the banking system, but also the economy - with all the impact this had on the quality of life of ordinary people - have not been held to account or been before the courts. They have not spent a single night in a jail cell.

Senator Kelly spoke about people's gut instinct and how, in retrospect or with the benefit of hindsight, it was wrong to support the bank veto in the insolvency legislation. My gut instinct when the Bill came before the House was not to give the banks a veto. My gut instinct when these issues arose was not to pay the bondholders in full and with interest. My gut instinct was not to allow a position where banking debt would become sovereign debt. I remind Senators who are now very concerned about what is happening with Anglo Irish Bank that not so long ago, in the early hours of the morning, they voted to turn €30 billion of toxic Anglo Irish Bank debt into sovereign debt by way of promissory notes. That decision was taken by people in this House and I stood against that, along with my party.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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The Senator's party supported it.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It has again been proven-----

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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Sinn Féin supported it.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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-----that the only parties which supported-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is there a question for the Leader?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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-----turning the Anglo Irish Bank debt into sovereign debt were Fianna Fáil - which was no surprise - and Fine Gael and Labour, along with some Independents in the House.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is there a question?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I support the need for-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is there a question for the Leader?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I ask that we have that debate on banking and the need for a banking inquiry.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Are you proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It has been made.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I thought one had been proposed but, if not, I propose an amendment.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I join other Senators in expressing my outrage at the revelations on the tapes. Caution is required as in a year or whenever it comes to pass that these people come before the courts, there will be senior counsels arguing that prejudice will arise from the amount of information in the public domain. We must be very careful about the level of detail with which we discuss these matters. I appreciate Senator Crown's point that the issue of getting the information out there is important, but we must hope that at least one good thing will come from the publication of the tape transcripts, and there will be pressure to have an inquiry. The question is why it has not happened before now.

The Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement is vastly under-resourced, and this is perhaps highlighted by the fall in the number of convictions for white collar crimes. The number fell to just 178 in 2010, compared with 579 in 2003, although the number of white collar cases increased in that period. It is a startling statistic and although the director is trying to do the best job possible, one wonders if the office needs much more resources. One also wonders whether with further foresight legislative provisions should have been created to oblige executives to disclose any material facts before any State intervention could take place, and if material facts were not disclosed by these criminals, this could be punishable by conviction.

If people were unfortunately injured because of a train crash, an inquiry would be carried out. People have been seriously injured, not least in a psychological sense, because of the demise of the economy.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has gone beyond her allotted time.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the indulgence. Why has the process taken so long and could we please have the Minister for Finance before the House to let us know when the inquiry will take place?

3:15 pm

Photo of Feargal QuinnFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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Could the Leader tell us what progress has been made in respect of the two Seanad Bills we debated here last month? The Seanad Bill 2013 passed Second Stage last month and concerned reform of the Seanad. Yet we will introduce a Bill tomorrow to abolish the Seanad. Should we not be taking the Bill to reform the Seanad ahead of the one that aims to abolish it? Could the Leader tell me where we stand on that?

I support Senator Crown and others who have spoken about the need for a timeline with regard to the terms of reference for the banking inquiry that we assume will take place. Senator Mary Ann O'Brien touched on the topic that has frustrated me over the years, namely, the length of time it takes to get something done in this country. It has been almost five years since that night in September 2008. It takes so long to get things done. I look at the commercial world where things happen much more quickly. I look at the US where things happen much more quickly. Can we not find some way to at least move things along much more rapidly than we do at the moment? I cannot believe it takes so long to do these things and I believe that, on this basis, Senator Crown's call for the Minister to come to the House to explain-----

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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And calls from other Senators.

Photo of Feargal QuinnFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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Yes, other Senators have called for it as well but Senator Crown put down an amendment to the Order of Business supported by Senator Barrett and many others. Can we move the timeline along much more quickly than we have done in the past and make sure that it will not be months before we get the terms of reference for the banking inquiry?

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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I have two points to make regarding the controversy in the media surrounding Anglo Irish Bank. Of course, I agree with Senator Darragh O'Brien that we should be responsible in what we say. There is no question about that. However, when ordinary people on our streets and in workplaces, pubs, homes, the media and talk shows are discussing the recent revelations with particular outrage, one cannot say that this House should not have an opinion on it. This House should have a very robust opinion on it. When we are discussing this, let us do our job properly as Senators and leave the parties outside the door while we deliberate on this matter. I say that as a Labour Party Senator whose party's hands are particularly clean on this matter but I will not labour that point.

We have heard much discussion about inquiries and investigations into the situation that evolved. This is an iconic moment in Irish democracy. Twenty years ago, there was significant concern about the apparent impunity with which organised crime operated culminating in the death of journalist Veronica Guerin. After that, the response of our Government was not an ordinary one. It was an extraordinary response where the authorities moved beyond the group-think in which we seem to be caught with regard to this. When we are talking about Oireachtas inquiries and commissions, perhaps we are not going far enough and are not being ambitious enough. Perhaps we should front-load resources into the criminal area or think completely outside the box and devise a new agency with the absolute powers it needs to investigate this matter. This iconic moment will determine what kind of democracy we want to live in. Does the same law apply to a young fellow who might steal one's car from outside one's door and a banker who might steal one's country? The answer to that must be "Yes".

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I extend my congratulations to Councillor Ian McGarvey and his wife Marjorie. Councillor McGarvey is 82 years of age and has been elected chairman of Donegal County Council. I suggest we all send him a note of congratulations. I am honoured to be a friend of Councillor McGarvey and his wife.

This morning I had the privilege to attend a fascinating conference on child care. Also in attendance were national and international experts. There was shock and horror in Ireland following the RTE "Prime Time" programme on crèches in Ireland. It is forgotten that the children of this country are the leaders of the future. We need to prioritise much more our vision of children in society. That television programme showed a lack of care and love for the children in the crèches. After 26 weeks of maternity leave, many women return to work, but they want their children to be loved. Love is more important than an academic education. Children learn from birth. If they are to avoid going into badly managed crèches which have poorly trained staff, we need to set high standards for those who work in our crèches. I am honoured to have been part of the Fianna Fáil group which took the initiative on the free preschool education. I am honoured also to have been part of the effort to put a Minister for child care in place. There is 95% take up of free preschool child care in the country. I call on the Leader to arrange for an urgent debate on the issue of child care. Those children are the leaders of the future.

3:20 pm

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I, too, share the sentiments expressed by all speakers on the banking situation. I sincerely hope that action to deal with it can be fast-tracked.

I welcome the announcement today of the reversal of resource teaching hours cuts. I agree with Senator Darragh O'Brien on the need for a reversal of special needs assistant, SNA, cuts also. As a matter of fact, there is a need for a reversal of the cuts that have taken place in the past couple of years because there is nothing more important than ensuring everyone has equal access to education. I regret the manner in which this issue has been handled by the Minister. It is extraordinary that an announcement such as this can be made on a Thursday and backtracked on the following Tuesday. In essence, the announcement should not have been made. I regret also the scenes on the plinth where back bench Deputies flanked the Minister for obvious political gain in making that decision. That is the type of politics that took place in previous Governments. It is in the past and should be in the past. It is regrettable that SNA and resource teaching hours cuts, above all issues, should be politicised in that appalling manner.

Photo of Lorraine HigginsLorraine Higgins (Labour)
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The contents of the Anglo Irish Bank tapes which have emerged in recent days are not only outrageous but insulting to the people. The effect of those details on taxpayers' lives is almost matched by the arrogance dripping from Bowe, Drumm and Fitzgerald. It is outlandish that these people were able to-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to refrain from mentioning names on the record of the House.

Photo of Lorraine HigginsLorraine Higgins (Labour)
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I will not mention them again. In any case, it is outlandish that these people were able to dupe the regulatory authorities of this country and the taxpayers to such an extent. The question that arises is whether there are further tapes. Are there tapes similar to what we have heard, where bankers act and behave in a cavalier manner towards the taxpayers of this country? We should demand that the taped conversations from Bank of Ireland, AIB, Permanent TSB and Irish Nationwide, among others, should be made available in the public interest from one month before the bailout to one month after the bailout. These tapes should be supplied immediately to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform in the interests of transparency and accountability in order that any further action that may be necessary will be taken.

Photo of Terry BrennanTerry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the fact that tourism figures have continued to rise for the first half of this year. The number of holiday visitors is up 19% and revenue is up 12%.

There is no doubt that The Gathering will be a great success and is working well in many communities across the country. We must encourage all communities and all tourism agencies to keep up the good work. This will be a great year for tourism in Ireland and we all must continue to play our part.

I support Senator Quinn's questioning of the Bill to reform the Seanad. The legislation has reached a certain stage and is now being held in abeyance by the Bill to abolish the Seanad that will reach us in the next couple of days. That is putting the cart before the horse and I ask the Leader if there is a specific reason for that to be the case.

3:25 pm

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom tacú leis an moladh atá molta ag mo chomhghleacaí, an Seanadóir Cullinane, go mbeadh díospóireacht againn maidir le cúrsaí baincéireachta. I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by my colleague, Senator Cullinane.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Crown has already proposed an amendment.

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I shall third it because we need a debate on the banking sector. I was unaware that Senator Crown had seconded the proposal which is fine.

Sinn Féin's record in the House on these issues has been very clear. We have not supported the bailout, we did not support the Personal Insolvency Bill and we did not support turning of bank debt into sovereign debt even though we had to sit through the night to debate it here.

The revelations over the past couple of days are appalling but unsurprising to many people because it was part of banking culture. A number of questions need to be asked. Why was such a culture allowed to develop in the first place? What was happening from a regulation point of view? Why was a decision made without documentation or further information being made available? Was either available? If so, why was it not acted on? How did the tapes get into the public domain? People want to know why people have not been brought before the courts and if there are issues that can lead to prosecution then why have people not been prosecuted.

The Seanad still exists and is the perfect forum to discuss and debate these issues in great detail. It is important that we do so.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Before the Senator resumes his seat I wish to clarify a matter. Senator Crown's amendment concerns the Minister for Finance and refers to the timeframe and orders of reference for the proposed banking inquiry to be taken today. His amendment is similar to Sinn Féin's proposal. Is that the case?

Photo of Michael MullinsMichael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I want to join in the words of congratulations extended to the Leader on the occasion of his son, John, being elected Mayor of Waterford. I also congratulate my colleagues in Galway on their success. Councillor Pádraig Conneely has been elected Mayor of Galway City and Councillor Liam Carroll has been elected Mayor of Galway County.

I applaud journalist Paul Williams and the Irish Independent for the fantastic service that they have done the State in blowing open the Anglo Irish debacle. They have exposed and informed the public about the contents of the taped conversations. The public is rightly angered and I met some of them in my local newsagent this morning before I left Ballinasloe. They are angry about the contents of the tapes. As Senator Crown has said, they are angry about the consequences that stemmed from the actions of those bankers. I call for the immediate establishment of a robust and cost-effective inquiry that will examine every aspect of the banking debacle over the past decade. We have all seen the effects of light touch regulation when it comes to possible criminality and how close bankers are to the political system. The issue needs to be thoroughly investigated but quickly. I renew my call on the Leader to arrange a debate with the Minister for Finance but I accept that he will not be available today.

However, it would be important for the Minister to have a debate with Members on current practices within the banking sector because I have been inundated with complaints from customers about the level of charging within the banks. Such customers are paying for the misdemeanours of bankers in the past and small businesses are being absolutely crucified with banking charges and poor levels of service within the banking system. Customers and small shops that deal with a lot of coins and currency cannot get the level of service from banks they had come to expect but are being charged outrageous amounts of money and are being obliged to present themselves at a time that suits the bank and not a time that suits them.

3:30 pm

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is over time.

Photo of Michael MullinsMichael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Members must consider this issue before the grinding of small businesses into the ground goes any further. The Leader should organise such a debate as a matter of urgency.

Photo of Jim D'ArcyJim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Although James Gandolfino, also known as Tony Soprano, died last week, what I listened to on the tapes published yesterday and today was straight out of "The Sopranos".

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Jim D'ArcyJim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I also agree with Senator Mullins that while investigating the outrageous happenings of the past in banking, an eye also must be kept on what is happening at present, whereby small and medium-sized businesses are unable to get loans. Dean Swift wrote an essay called "A Modest Proposal" in which the Irish people who were poor ate their own young, perhaps to keep going. Small and medium-sized enterprises seeking loans must take out personal loans to such an extent that they must mortgage everything they possess and Members must examine this practice.

In addition, as Fine Gael spokesperson for education in the Seanad, I was appalled to read over the weekend that the Garda is to probe reports that pupils were handcuffed and beaten on a school trip. One parent has stated:

Over four days... my son was subjected to assaults and abuse; he was dragged from his room, handcuffed, beaten, punched and kicked, had obscene things written on his arm, and this happened many times throughout the day.
I congratulate Deputy Keating on his efforts to bring this matter into the public domain and support him in seeking either an independent inquiry or at least an inquiry undertaken by the Department of Education and Skills into such outrageous happenings.

Photo of Mary MoranMary Moran (Labour)
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I echo Senator Conway's welcome of the announcement made at lunchtime today by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, concerning his reversal of a decision. Despite the same number of teachers and special needs assistants being available and despite the provision of €1.3 billion out of the education budget of €8 billion, there were perceived cuts which would have resulted in students having fewer hours of resource teaching. Consequently, I welcome the Minister's announcement and agree with Senator Conway that children must be our priority. They must be given the best facilities and opportunities it is absolutely possible to give. The Minister, Deputy Quinn, must be commended on going back to the Cabinet, on listening to the concerns my colleagues and I have raised with him during the week and on listening to the concerns of parents and those who would be affected by it. It takes a certain amount of courage to stand up and admit one should ascertain what can be done and I welcome that decision. It is a good day for special education and for the Government.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I join colleagues in welcoming the reversal of the cut to the special education grant that was announced last week. As my leader has observed, he does not know how one could reverse a cut that was not a cut, because it was not only the Minister for Education and Skills who stated there was no cut to the budget.

The Tánaiste repeated on a number of occasions in the Dáil last Thursday that there was no cut but obviously there was a cut. I welcome the fact that it has partially been reversed. I call on the Minister to finish the job now and to increase the budget for special needs assistants.

3:35 pm

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Hear hear.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I join colleagues in calling on the Minister for Finance to come to the House to outline clearly to us what plans the Government has to carry out an investigation into what happened five years ago.

I support Senator Lorraine Higgins’s call for the tapes from the other banks to be handed over. It was as a result of the Garda Síochána raiding Anglo Irish Bank that the tapes happened to come into the hands of a journalist, albeit five years later. I very much welcome the fact that the tapes came into the hands of Paul Williams. It is in the public interest. The tapes of other banks should be voluntarily handed over by the other banks that have been guaranteed by the State so that an investigation could be carried out.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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As I predicted, the vast majority of Members of the House have spoken about the need for a banking inquiry and discussed the shocking revelations of the tapes from Anglo Irish Bank. People ask why it has taken five years to address the matter. The Government put a referendum to the people on inquiries, which was rejected. The Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill is currently in the other House and Report and Final Stages will be taken early next week. I assure Members that we will facilitate the passage of the Bill in this House in the current session, despite our workload, before the summer recess.

An important principle embodied in the legislation is the responsibility assigned exclusively to the Houses themselves for determining the requirement of an inquiry, initiating it and agreeing its terms of reference as well as the procedural and organisational aspects of the inquiry. Prior to the initiation of a banking inquiry a number of steps must be carried out by both Houses. They include the approval of the draft commencement order of the Bill, putting in place rules and standing orders to govern the establishment of an inquiry, and drafting necessary guidelines and standing orders to ensure the effective and efficient operation of such an inquiry. They are the procedures we must follow. We will have ample time to discuss the Bill in the House before the summer recess. I hope that will pave the way for a banking inquiry early in the autumn.

I have outlined the procedures involved prior to the setting up of a banking inquiry, which has been sought by the majority of speakers in the House this afternoon. I fully agree that this is a very serious matter that must be addressed. I thank Members for bearing in mind in their comments the need to be careful in what they say because these matters will be before the courts as well, I hope in early course.

I welcome Senator O’Brien’s acceptance of my suggestion. I presume the House will accept that we will now deal with Committee and Remaining Stages of the Health (Amendment) Bill this afternoon.

Special needs assistants was another matter raised by a number of speakers in the House today. I remind Senator O’Brien, as I did last week, that the provision for special needs assistants for the coming school year will remain at the same level as this year.

We must all be clear about this point to avoid any unnecessary distress for parents. The number of special needs assistants remains at 10,575. As there has not been a significant rise in the demand for special needs assistants' support this year, there has been no policy change required to stay within the capped number. The NCSE has indicated demand for resource teachers has risen over the past year. The overall number of children in the system has risen by 1.3% in the past year but the number of applications has risen by 12% for next year. The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, has made it clear we must explore the reasons for this unprecedented rise in applications. Our response to this demand cannot simply be to continue increasing spending in an unsustainable manner, an approach adopted by the last Fianna Fáil Government.

Eamon Stack, a former chief inspector of schools, has been appointed chairman of the group with a mandate to report to the Minister for Education and Skills by the end of September with preliminary views on how the allocation system may be reformed. Pending receipt of that report, the Cabinet has agreed that the 500 posts which have been held in reserve for late applications will be used immediately to ensure the individual allocations will be preserved at 2012-2013 levels, while the transition to a new model of resource allocation is under way. This is further evidence that the Government remains fully committed to protecting children with special educational needs.

Senator Bacik spoke of the need for a banking inquiry and called for a debate on multi-denominational schools and we will try to get the Minister for Education and Skills to come in to discuss that.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien called for a timescale for the national children's hospital. I will try to get that from the Minister for Health and forward it to the Senator.

Senator Colm Burke called for a debate on maternity services and alluded to a national perinatal report that was published recently. I will raise that matter with the Minister for Health and his Department and refer to that report.

Senator Kelly called for a further Bill to amend the Personal Insolvency Act. I do not know if that can be done, although I am sure it can. The Senator will have ample opportunity to raise that with the Minister for Finance, who will be in the House to discuss the Central Bank (Supervision and Enforcement) Bill that we partly discussed last week.

Senators Cullinane and Ó Clochartaigh called for a banking inquiry. Sinn Féin is on message but it has selective amnesia because it supported the bank guarantee, which it tends to forget on these occasions.

Senator Noone raised the statistics on white collar crime, which is very prevalent and relevant at this stage.

Senator Quinn spoke about the Bill to allow for a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad. The Second Stage of that Bill will commence tomorrow and will be resumed on Thursday. If it is not completed, it will be resumed again to be completed on Tuesday of next week. We will then proceed to Committee Stage of the Bill. In respect of the reforming Bills on the Order Paper, the Government's wish is to proceed with the Bill to allow for a referendum on the abolition on the Seanad.

While Second Stage of the Senator's reform Bill was passed, it is the wish of the Government to proceed with the Bill to abolish the Seanad before dealing with the reform aspects of the other two Bills. That is the way the Government will proceed.

Senator Mary White congratulated Councillor Ian McGarvey, an 82 year old, on his election as chairman of Donegal County Council, while other speakers congratulated the mayors and chairpersons of other local authorities who were elected last evening.

Senator Terry Brennan called for a debate on tourism and suggested the number of tourists has increased this year. He is correct that the figure has increased significantly. I have asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, to come before the House to address this issue. While I have not yet received a date from the Minister, he has indicated he will come to the House.

I believe I have addressed all the matters raised and apologise if I omitted any issue. I do not propose to accept the amendment to the Order of Business.

3:45 pm

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator John Crown has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, "That a debate with the Minister for Finance on the timeframe and orders of reference for the proposed banking inquiry be taken today". Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 21.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Sean D. Barrett and John Crown; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Marie Moloney.

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.