David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the change which has been made. I have dealt with many retained firefighters in County Waterford who have found themselves in this situation. Due to an anomaly in the system, if a firefighter applied for a social welfare payment and the deciding officer determined that he or she was not available for work because of the rule requiring firefighters to live in close proximity to a fire station, he or she was not entitled to a payment. That created problems. I recognise that the provisions in the Bill represent a significant step forward, on which I commend the Minister. Many people in the Houses of the Oireachtas have raised the issue as a concern. I have received several phone calls welcoming the announcement that there would be a change. It is right to relay that to the Minister.

Amendment No. 6 is intended to deal with people whose claims are already in the system. It is important not to forget those people. I am not saying we need to go back decades or years but rather intend to address live applications and the fact that the change does not apply to them. The only way to apply the change for those applications is if the applicants apply again, which might be unfair. I am not sure we are being entirely flexible or taking the most pragmatic approach by rejecting the amendment. We are dealing here with a very small number of people. I received a letter from a firefighter who is in this situation and is making an appeal. It summed up the position of these people. He wrote:

I welcome the work done so far in relation to fire fighters and our social welfare claims and it is heartening to see the legislation progress through the House. It is with this in mind that I received notification this morning that my own claim is to be rejected again on the grounds of availability. This continues the trend of every single fire fighter's claim from the Birr fire station having been refused. This, as you are all aware, puts each and every fire fighter and his or her family under immense financial pressure for a period of up to seven months while the slow wheels of the appeals process move forward. What is even more disturbing is that the fact that this very same reason was put forward by the very same deciding officer last year and when it went to the appeals process, her decision was overturned. To put forward the same argument for a second year might be considered funny were it not so serious. This is obviously a huge disappointment to all of us in Birr who are only asking to be treated the same as the rest of our colleagues in Offaly and beyond.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I add my voice to the compliments to the Minister for addressing an issue that has been ongoing for 40 years. The firefighters have been very patient to wait 40 years for the change in legislation. Once the Bill goes through, it will be from that point on that they will be able to avail of the provision. I can be corrected if I am wrong. Anyone who has applied and was turned down on that ground should reapply as soon as the Bill is through the Houses. Is that correct?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes. The provision will commence as soon as we have the legislation in place. I am happy that after a very long period, we have been able to work out something that was causing genuine hardship.

It is a critically important that this service should be available, particularly in rural communities. Perhaps the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government will change its arrangements but it has advantages. It allows for a fire service throughout the country and I am happy to do this. I do not have the capacity to go further at this point.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 7 is out of order because it involves a potential charge on the Exchequer.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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I seek clarification on a number of questions I raised on this section on Second Stage. It concerns the effect of the transition status on one-parent family payments as claimants transfer to jobseeker's allowance. Will one-parent families with a child dependant aged between 18 and 22 years in full-time education continue to receive income support on transition to jobseeker's allowance of €29.80 per week for him or her? Will they continue to receive the fuel allowance payment because normally one needs to be in receipt of the transitional jobseeker's allowance for 380 days to receive the allowance?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Senator raised these questions on Second Stage last Thursday. I assure her that time spent in receipt of the one-parent family payment will count in satisfying requirements for continued payment of qualified child increases where the child is in full-time education up to the age of 22 years. I agree with her that the fuel allowance is of great importance to many welfare recipients, particularly families. The aim of the scheme is to provide additional support for those on long-term welfare payments during the winter. I can confirm that persons who are exiting the one-parent family payment will retain entitlement to the allowance if they access another social welfare payment such as jobseeker's allowance.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Is there a link with child benefit in this regard? Child benefit payments cease the day the child turns 18 years. Does the payment continue for one-parent families until the child reaches 22 years?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The payment of child benefit is separate from the issue of one-parent family payments. The conditionality attached to child benefit stands alone and the scheme applies up to the age of 18 years. It does not cross over to the issues raised by Senator Katherine Zappone. Child benefit ceases at the age of 18 years.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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When the youngest child in a one-parent family reaches the age of 14 years, the payments for older children stop at the age of 17 years. Once one-parent families transfer to the transitional jobseeker's allowance, they will receive payments for children aged between 18 and 22 years in full-time education and, therefore, it will be an advantage to them.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Potentially, if they are in full-time education. The purpose of transferring to the transitional jobseeker's payment is to reflect what happens in other jurisdictions which have better child poverty outcomes and to provide a positive framework to encourage lone parents to return to education, training and employment once the youngest child is settled in school. The purpose of the transitional arrangements is to recognise that lone parents have family obligations and the reason we are introducing this arrangement is to give this due recognition. I acknowledge that when people are transitioning back to work while parenting on their own, part-time work, education or training, in particular initially, may be the best option for them.

Providing a strong framework for lone parents in order that they can resume education, training or employment gives them an opportunity to develop their careers as their children grow older. From my constituency work and dealings with people, I know that many women, as they cease having the status of lone parents as their children become adults, regret not having availed of opportunities to establish what they wanted to do and develop a career. The system we are providing for is actually a good one.

I have spoken before about child care. There is still limited child care provision, but I was very happy to provide in this year's budget funding for 6,000 after-school child care places. It was the first time this was provided for in our structure. We must build up our child care family support systems as we proceed. The amendment reflects the realistic options for lone parents, while providing a framework to provide really strong encouragement.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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This is one of the few opportunities I will have to talk about benefits. We have discussed section 9, but given that we are talking about jobseeker's allowance for lone parents, the Minister should be aware that on Second Stage I referred to the circumstances of members of Irish Equity, the representative body for the acting profession. I have received further information on this issue and assume that some actors are lone parents who are covered by the legislation. I gather that members of Irish Equity, while not always automatically excluded, have many difficulties in obtaining social welfare payments. That comes from the head office. It is difficult for actors to pursue work in their field as the Department of Social Protection is often of the view that they should be pursuing all types of work, not just in the arts. I am astonished that is an official view that is being taken or a view being taken by individual assessment officers. In other words, those who happen to be actors are told, "Tough. Go out and do something else and then we might consider you."

Another aspect of the problem is that if actors pay for and participate in training to up-skill within their profession, the Department of Social Protection will not pay them for the duration of the training because they are considered to be unavailable for work. This does not apply in any other sector.

The Irish Film Board now has responsibility for training in the industry. This responsibility has been transferred from FÁS which is now the responsibility of the Department of Social Protection. The view of Irish Equity is that it would be useful if there were a connection between the Irish Film Board and the Department in the way that there was regarding FÁS training courses at one time. In other words, there was a connection between the Department and FÁS, but this seems to have disappeared. I can write to the Minister on this issue, as I am only raising it now in the course of this debate. It seems there is an opportunity for the Department to be proactive in helping those involved to participate in training to up-skill within the industry. I would be really concerned if there were a quasi-official position or a position being taken at local level that was making life difficult for members of Irish Equity through their being told that they should go and pursue something else. This is an important matter. There are only 1,500 people involved, of whom I understand only approximately 1,000 might be seeking work at any one time. The number, therefore, is small.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Senator for raising the issue. The welfare and well-being of professional actors and other creative professionals are important in terms of the status of the arts. In general, if an unemployed person has a particular job such as acting, it is understood initially by the deciding officer that he or she will try to obtain further employment in his or her specific area. However, if over a long period the individual is unable to find such employment, it is reasonable to encourage him or her to look to other areas. That has certainly happened frequently. People may engage in other activities, ranging from other forms of artistic work to teaching, for example. I do not want to be prescriptive. For many of those involved in the acting profession, there are certain possibilities. It is important that actors be encouraged to take up employment.

In the development of the Intreo services we could probably be of specific assistance in that we will be examining education and training as part of work experience. If a person has a particular profession such as acting, the case officers working in the Intreo offices will possibly be best placed to help. A couple of months ago I was very happy to reach an agreement with the Arts Council, through the county arts administrators, to arrange for JobBridge opportunities in the arts. The initiative was launched in Killarney a couple of months ago and a number of arts officers in different counties have been extremely active. Some of the activity pertains to festivals. If the Senator wants to submit more detailed suggestions to me, he should do so. If somebody is unsuccessful in the acting profession and resting for a longer period than expected, it is reasonable to provide a mechanism to assist him or her. With the rolling out of the Intreo offices, I hope this is what will develop.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful. I was not aware of the new arrangement. FÁS was the training authority, but responsibility now seems to have shifted to the Irish Film Board. Therefore, the Department of Social Protection seems to be out of the loop.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The part of FÁS that has come to the Department of Social Protection is the employment services side. The training side has stayed within the Department of Education and Skills, to which it was transferred by the previous Government. I do not believe we have any connection there. If the Irish Film Board wants to approach my Department with specific proposals, it should do so.

On Friday I was in Cork where I visited the Triskel Arts Centre. It is a fine community employment development in the centre of the city and has operated for a very long period. There are a number of people working in community employment and they are extremely impressive. The arts centre and other organisations have been examining the potential utilisation of the JobBridge scheme through the development we have agreed with the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, and particularly the Arts Council and county arts officers.

I hope unemployed actors will be able to avail of opportunities through the participation structures we have been developing and expanding during my time as Minister. If the Irish Film Board wants to meet my Department, we will be happy to meet it. I suspect the relationship to which the Senator referred largely concerns the Department of Education and Skills.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I refer to up-skilling within the industry.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 8:

In page 17, between lines 35 and 36, to insert the following:"(6) Recipients of any Public Services Card shall not be subject to a charge for the issue of such card.".".

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I assure the Senator that there is no provision for charging individuals for the furnishing, replacement or renewal of a public services card. We have rolled out more than 250,000 of the cards thus far, mainly to new applications and in the jobseeker's area in particular, the intention being to roll out the scheme to other social welfare clients in due course. We are entering into an arrangement with the Passport Office, which already uses biometric photographs, to allow us to avail of that data without asking people to provide a new photograph. However, some retired people, for example, have told me that they do not particularly care for their passport photograph and would prefer to sit for a new one with their hair done and so on.

We hope to complete the roll-out by next year. It is a very important development in terms of deterring identity fraud. The new biometric photographs are sufficiently sensitive to flag a situation where, for instance, a person on the database in the Tallaght office is also on the database in another office. The system will seek verification in such instances as to whether it is the same person. Other schemes are also vulnerable to fraud under current arrangements. In the case of the free travel scheme, for example, which is greatly valued by those who are eligible for it, there is a problem of misuse, not in respect of pensioners, I hasten to add. As we roll out the card, we will be in a position to verify the identity of persons availing of free travel, which is not confined to retired people. Several of the transport providers are reporting problems with forged travel cards or people using legitimate cards inappropriately.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I recall the Minister speaking on another occasion about alleged fraud under the free travel scheme. That is totally unacceptable and I support her in any efforts she makes to address it. I am anxious, however, that any such efforts would not in any way endanger the entitlement to free travel. I accept the Minister's publicly stated commitment to the scheme, but I would hate to see withdrawal being used as a stick. There are numerous ways to avoid this type of fraud. The administration of the scheme seems to have been somewhat lax in the past, which the Minister is addressing.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have been working with the various transport companies to devise a series of on-the-spot checks. We have a facility whereby a travel card which seems to be fraudulent - some of the ones I have seen are merely cheap photocopies in a plastic wallet - can be checked to verify the authenticity of the number. There has been quite a lot of that type of activity on several of the transport services in recent times, including the Luas. As we achieve the roll-out of the public services card and the related technology in the transport companies, there should be a significant easing of that problem.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I reiterate my concern that there is nothing in the legislation to prevent a charge being imposed. I am not suggesting that the Minister is of a mind to do it, but there is nothing to prevent a future Minister from so doing. Does she agree that is the case?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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As we know from our experience of the bank guarantee and the range of taxes and changes which flowed from it, there is nothing fixed under the heavens when it comes to social welfare and taxation. There is no provision for the charge to which the Senator has alluded. Moreover, even if such a provision were included in the Bill, it would be open to any future Minister to amend it. In short, there cannot be total certainty in regard to any legislation, particularly in the context of our experiences since 2008.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is a priority of the Minister's Department, as it is for us all, to prevent and curb social welfare fraud. Is she confident that the electronic signature and photograph that will be contained on the new public services card are foolproof? If so, does she agree that we should not also have gone down the road of fingerprinting?

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I strongly welcome the introduction of a public services card. Will the Minister clarify when she hopes to have the scheme rolled out for every recipient of State benefits? I would like to see it closely married with the free travel scheme, in respect of which there is apparently widespread manipulation and fraud. At a time when our national transport company is struggling to remain solvent and meet its commitments, it is deplorable that the scheme is so poorly regulated and the cards so inefficient that there is a significant opportunity for abuse.

In regard to Senator Paschal Mooney's amendment, I certainly hope there will be no charge for the card. However, it might be useful to have some deterrent in place to prevent people from losing it on a regular basis or wilfully destroying it. If there is a possibility of incurring a charge, people will be less likely to engage in the type of carelessness that would necessitate the provision of replacement cards on a large scale.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I urge the Minister, as I did on Committee Stage, to be conscious of the very elderly and people on invalidity benefit, many of whom are not in a position to attend to have their photograph taken. The Minister mentioned using existing passport photographs but the reality is that many very elderly people do not have passports because it was not the custom to travel abroad when they were younger. I have had several cases where people who wished to fly to Britain using Ryanair could not do so because they did not have a passport. For some of them, securing one would be a significant inconvenience. We must ensure that where very elderly people do not present to have their photograph taken, their pensions will not be affected and every effort will be made to liaise with and accommodate them.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It is important to note that the vast majority of people who are in receipt of social welfare are genuine claimants. My information, which the Minister will undoubtedly correct if it is inaccurate, is that only 3.4% of total welfare expenditure is accounted for by either error or fraud, with one third of that percentage relating specifically to fraud and the remainder to errors made by social welfare offices or by claimants themselves. We are talking, in other words, about a tiny percentage of recipients. While it is vital to clamp down on fraud, because those involved are taking money not only from the State but from other people who are entitled to welfare, we must keep matters in perspective. Only a tiny cohort of total welfare claimants is guilty of fraud.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank Senators for their comments. I assure them that I value the arrangements in regard to free travel, as do pensioners. The bottom line is that abuse of the scheme undermines the benefit for everybody. The provisions in this Bill will ultimately protect the integrity of the scheme.

As to why a public services card was not introduced before now, I cannot answer. It has been discussed for ten years.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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The former Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, took the initial steps to introduce it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It was talked about for a long period before that. We are now, finally, in the process of implementing it.

If we had opted for another system, that would have meant further delays leaving, in a way, the best being the enemy of the good. What we are now rolling out is a data card which has the capacity to hold substantial amounts of data. Therefore, other Departments will be in a position, if they wish, to avail of some of the storage mechanisms on the card. It will be possible to update the card in the future, but it is important that we go with what we have now. We are one of the few European countries doing this and we have the strong support of the public here for it as it recognises how important it is to have a secure social welfare system.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister confident the system is adequately foolproof?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes. The registration process is called Safe. With regard to older people and the query raised by Senator Moloney, we are making arrangements for older people. We hope to have most of the cards rolled out by the end of next year. Our target to the end of this year is 600,000 cards and we are well on target to achieve that or even go beyond it. When the Safe registration process is undertaken and somebody comes to sign up for a card, the software performs a search of the captured or imported customer photograph - it is imported if it comes from a passport photo - against existing photographs on the Department's database to ensure the individual has not already been registered for a public services card using a different personal public service number. We are aware that some people may have multiple public service numbers because, particularly during the boom, huge numbers of public services numbers were issued.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Twice the population.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Therefore, we check the photograph against the database and if somebody appears to be registered with the service elsewhere, for example in Tallaght, but also pops up in Carrick-on-Shannon, Killarney or elsewhere, the message will be transmitted that this appears to be the same person, giving rise to a query. Staff in social welfare offices have told me that sometimes when people are invited to have their photos taken, they say they are too busy at that point in time. Members may draw their own conclusions from that. Sometimes when people are confronted with the requirement for a photo, they decide they have another pressing engagement. Photos are very important in terms of identity. On this basis, last year the House agreed to legislation giving officers at airports and ports the power to stop people who appear to be travelling in and out frequently and the DPP has already taken a number of court cases arising from this. It is very important that people have confidence that the social welfare system has a strong structure to protect against fraud or abuse.

On the issue raised by Senator Cullinane, the overall extent of overpayments last year amounted to approximately €92 million. I can make the information on this available to Senators. Suspected fraud accounted for €34 million, or 38% of this and customer or third party error accounted for €40.5 million, or 44%. In many cases, if somebody is spoken to about an issue or if an issue arises - for example if social welfare inspectors enter a place of employment and find somebody who is not registered for tax and social welfare purposes - people often give the excuse that they just arrived in that premises that morning. Sometimes it is impossible to prove or disprove that, although the inspectors would obviously go over the records. Much of the error or mistake in regard to overpayments is down to customers supplying wrong data.

Another significant amount, €11.5 million, comes to light after somebody has died because of there being far more money in his or her estate than anticipated. The person may have been receiving payments for which, it appears from the estate details in retrospect, he or she did not qualify. Therefore, the amount of overpayment due to departmental error is only approximately 6% of the total. It is important people appreciate that and that is the reason I have been so anxious, as Minister, to set in train mechanisms that provide for the prompt and speedy recovery of overpayments. A significant proportion of these overpayments arise from fraud and abuse, and a further significant proportion arise due to customer error, where customers did not realise that if they were going to work, they should make that arrangement known to the social welfare office.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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As it is now 1.55 p.m, I will ask Senator Mooney whether he is pressing the amendment. If not, we will adjourn the debate.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I am pressing the amendment.