Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I also welcome the Minister.

The Independent Commission on Policing for Northern Ireland was set up pursuant to the Good Friday Agreement signed in Belfast in 1998. We are all familiar with the Patten report published by the commission in 1999 which contained 175 recommendations, nine of which related specifically to transfers between the Garda Síochána and the PSNI, with a further recommendation being that the issue of community balance at more senior ranks of the police service be addressed by lateral entry from other police forces. The Patten agreement provides for three levels of personnel exchange: a programme of placements to transfer experience and expertise, including in the area of training; a programme for members of each police service to be seconded, with full police powers,to the other police service for periods not exceeding three years, and that members of each police service be eligible for certain posts in the other police service. I acknowledge the current co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda Síochána on policing matters which was confirmed again yesterday at the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, BIPA, meeting on human trafficking which I attended.

I propose to concentrate on the transfer of personnel between the Garda Síochána and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. While the legislation that underpinned the recommendations made in the Patten report is very positive, a number of practical issues arise which I will outline. At the level of short-term exchanges, the Patten programme has proved reasonably successful. This involves 84 gardaí and 75 PSNI officers taking part in what is usually a four week exchange. Garda officers on exchange to the PSNI remain subject to their own police regulations and have no police powers while in Northern Ireland. This clearly is a major disadvantage to officers while serving in another jurisdiction.The same applies to officers from Northern Ireland on exchange to the Republic. Other practical issues arise in relation to insurance cover. I have been told, by way of first-hand anecdotal evidence, that officers who transfer are effectively there as observers, with a view to increasing their personal-professional contacts and their understanding of issues relating to cross-Border criminal activity. While this is good, they are effectively civilian observers. I do not believe this could be classified as anything more than short-term work experience and time out from their own work.
Longer term secondments of up to three years have proved less popular.The PSNI only received one applicationfor a secondment in 2009, while An Garda Síochána received none. The previous Garda Commissioner, Mr. Fachtna Murphy, expressed his regret that the scheme was not working and indicated that he would assist the PSNI in reviewing the process. Sir Hugh Orde was, however, sanguine about the absence of long-term secondments at the time. In 2009 the PSNI decided to review the process rather than go ahead with the secondment. In March 2010 Superintendent Paul Moran became the first and only officer of any rank from either An Garda Síochána or the PSNI to take part in a secondment when he was seconded from An Garda Síochána to the PSNI in Belfast for 18 months.

In this secondment he wore the full uniform, had police powers and was permitted to carry a firearm. He has since returned to An Garda Síochána.

Lateral entry or transfer between forces has proved somewhat harder to arrange, partly because of significant administrative difficulties. For example, the difficulty of transferring pension entitlements - both State and occupational - across an international border has proved to be one of the most significant disincentives for individual officers to participate in long-term movement between the forces.

The last 50:50 recruitment campaign to the PSNI ended in Northern Ireland in 2011. From a small number of applicants from An Garda Síochána, one detective garda was accepted as a detective constable in the PSNI in March 2012. It was necessary for him to resign from An Garda Síochána to transfer to the PSNI and his pension was non-transferable and, therefore, frozen. He had to begin paying into the UK police pension scheme. However, I understand the transfer has been a hugely positive career development and he has been warmly received by colleagues in the PSNI. However, the fact remains that there is a considerable financial disincentive in such a move by members of An Garda Síochána. Any garda who wishes to transfer would also have the added instability of having to reapply for a post in An Garda Síochána when his or her period of service in the PSNI ended. The methodology for re-entry needs to be examined.

Speaking in Seanad Éireann ten years ago, former Senator Maurice Hayes said:

There is no point in laying down the legislation and making a provision if it is not taken up. By and large, people will not take up positions unless they see them as being of some advantage to them, in terms of their career, career development and the rest of it. At the very least, they should not lose money. It is a sensible and general rule that when somebody is seconded, he or she is offered his or her existing terms and conditions. There may also be a relocation allowance and an incentive for those separated from their families [This is the case for the PSNI, but it does not apply in the South].

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should conclude.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I have a few questions for the Minister. Occasionally members of An Garda Síochána have gone to work with international organisations such as the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. In these cases the members resigned with an option to reapply to An Garda Síochána when they had completed their work. Is the position similar for Garda members who choose to transfer between the Garda and the PSNI - that they must resign, their pension is frozen and they must apply to rejoin the force? Clarification is necessary. I would like to think the transfer and exchange of personnel between the two forces is something the Government is interested in promoting. The Minister is only a short time in office, but he has introduced much reforming legislation. I ask him to consider undertaking work on the transfer-exchange programme.

I have another question for the Minister. Does the Government have plans in the short or longer term to address the pension issue that acts as a disincentive in transfers between the forces? Will consideration be given to offering incentives to members of An Garda Síochána to transfer to the PSNI for periods of up to three years? This might be mutually beneficial. Will the Minister consider allowing members of An Garda Síochána to assist the PSNI in policing events such as the recent G8 summit? That is what was considered in the Patten agreement, but it is not being implemented. It would provide gardaí with invaluable training-----

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is way over time.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I have just one other question. Former Senator Maurice Hayes raised an important issue ten years ago-----

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has used up more than her time.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Just one more minute, please. I refer to the attractive remuneration package which includes mortgage interest relief, travel costs and moving expenses. The conditions under which a member may re-enter An Garda Síochána should be written down. Are officers who take a proactive approach and move to the PSNI likely to be punished for showing such initiative? Does the Garda Síochána promote the gaining of such experience as being desirable and an advantage? Would a member who takes such an initiative be subject to the current moratorium on recruitment? It is clear that the process, as envisaged, is not working. I hope the Minister will encourage those at higher ranks to participate in the transfer programme. Will we continue in the way we have done for the past 14 years? It is ten years since former Senator Maurice Hayes raised the matter in the House and I hope the Minister will be able to do something about it in his term of office.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for raising this issue. On 29 April 2002 the Irish and British Governments signed an agreement on police co-operation providing a framework for the implementation of certain Patten commission recommendations on enhanced police co-operation. I am pleased to inform the House that all of the necessary administrative and legislative measures are in place to allow for implementation of these recommendations. The legislative measures were set out in the Garda Síochána (Police Co-operation) Act 2003 which, in turn, was incorporated into the Garda Síochána Act 2005. It is worth recalling that Article 1 of the recommendations deals with lateral entry, that Article 2 deals with secondments with police powers and that Article 5 deals with personnel exchanges without police powers. Regulations under the Act were required to provide for lateral entry and these are now in place. Regulations were not required for secondments and personnel exchanges. The implementation of these articles continues to be a key measure towards improving the level of cross-community confidence in the impartiality of the criminal justice system.

It was proposed that personnel provisions of the intergovernmental agreement would take place on an incremental basis, commencing with personnel exchanges without police powers, then secondments with police powers and, finally, lateral entry. On 21 February 2005 the Garda Commissioner and the Chief Constable of the PSNI signed protocols which provided for the implementation of a programme of personnel exchanges and secondments between An Garda Síochána and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. These protocols set out a framework for the operation of both personnel exchanges and secondments. In practice, exchanges take place for periods of between one and two months, without the exercise of police powers in the host jurisdiction.

A total of 89 members of An Garda Síochána and 76 members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland have taken part in exchange programmes under the auspices of the protocols. These programmes have been very successful, with exchanges taking place across the whole spectrum of policing areas, including training, human resources, general operational policing and specialist areas. Outside the ambit of the formal agreement, training and education exchanges have also taken place between the Garda College and the PSNI in a number of areas, including the exchange of teacher-trainers, a senior investigation officers' course, public order training and a firearms instructors' course. A joint diversity training programme took place involving personnel in the Border division and the PSNI. Following on from discussions between An Garda Síochána and the Police Service of Northern Ireland, each exchange is now concluded with a comprehensive debriefing session involving representatives of both organisations and each participant in the exchange.

The key difference between personnel exchanges and secondments is that members of either force who are seconded to the other force exercise full police powers in the host jurisdiction. Under section 54 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, the Commissioner may, on application by a member of An Garda Síochána, arrange with the Chief Constable for the member's secondment to the PSNI for a period not exceeding three years. As the Senator stated, one Garda superintendent was seconded to the PSNI from An Garda Síochána for a period on 18 months in March 2010. I understand this was a very successful secondment. I very much hope there will be further such secondments, although they are, of course, subject to the operational exigencies of the two police services. That said, it is important that the Patten commission recommendations are fully implemented. I know that the Garda Commissioner is very committed to building on and enhancing cross-Border co-operation across all aspects of policing. I must stress at this stage that any member of An Garda Síochána who participates in an exchange programme or takes up a secondment position with the PSNI does so in the full knowledge that his or her employment status within An Garda Síochána remains completely intact.

Turning to the issue of lateral entry, the intergovernmental agreement obliged both Governments to introduce the necessary administrative and legislative measures to enable members of one force to apply for posts at ranks of above inspector level in the other force. Section 52 of the Garda Síochána Acts 2005 to 2007 provides for the implementation of these provisions for the appointment of members of the PSNI to ranks above inspector level in An Garda Síochána. In 2012 I introduced regulations, namely, the Garda Síochána Act 2005 (Police Service of Northern Ireland Appointments) Regulations 2012 and the Garda Síochána Act 2005 (Section 52) Regulations 2012, to give legal effect to the provisions mentioned. By way of letter, dated 10 September 2012, the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland was notified of the holding of promotion competitions for the ranks of superintendent and chief superintendent in An Garda Síochána. Expressions of interest from members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland were received and subsequently two briefing sessions were held at the Garda College in Templemore in September 2012. The appointments from this competition have been made and on this occasion did not include any member of the PSNI.

Pension transfer is a particularly difficult issue that applies to all public sector workers moving between different jurisdictions. There is no general provision for a transfer of pension benefit from one state to another. In the case of lateral entry, where a member of An Garda Síochána resigns his or her position to join the PSNI, or vice versa, that member will retain pension entitlements which, in the case of An Garda Síochána, would be due at age 60 and commence new pension payments with the PSNI. There are certain circumstances where a member of An Garda Síochána who resigns from the force to take up employment with another police force or in the private sector may apply to the Commissioner to be reinstated. In doing so, that person must be able to show the additional experience and skills set acquired outside the force will be of benefit to the force in the future.

I have developed a close working relationship with my ministerial counterpart in Northern Ireland, David Ford, which is of great benefit in addressing matters of mutual concern and enhancing effective police and criminal justice co-operation. Along with our officials, we will continue to address the operation of these personnel transfer and exchange arrangements to ensure they can be made as beneficial as is possible to the two police services and, indeed, to policing on this island.

In summarising my response to the points made by Senator Keane, I reiterate that mechanisms are in place for the orderly transfer of members, permanently or temporarily, between the PSNI and the Garda Síochána. I look forward to building on the progress which has been made in this regard. I would have to say in response to the questions the Senator asked that of course there is no question of anyone being punished for taking an initiative. It is a lot more simple and straightforward in the area of secondments. Of course a direct lateral transfer will be much more complicated. In effect, it involves someone ceasing to be a member of the Garda Síochána and becoming a member of the PSNI. I am determined to encourage the continued exchange of members between the Garda Síochána and the PSNI in the manner that has been successful to date. The next time I meet Minister Ford, I intend to raise with him the further steps that might be taken to ensure the full intent and objective of what was previously agreed is actually working in practice.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Minister's final statement, about his intention to raise with his Northern Ireland counterpart the question of whether what was agreed is working in practice, was the best part of his reply. As I said at the outset, it is not working in practice. Just one member relocated in each of the years 2009-10 and 2012-13. Why is this not working in practice? There is a financial disincentive. As Maurice Hayes said ten years ago, "People will not take up positions" in such circumstances. That is one thing. When the Minister referred to the uncertainty about having one's job guaranteed if one wishes to come back into the force, he said one must be able to show that the experience gained outside the force will be "of benefit to the force in the future". I suppose there is a degree of uncertainty there. The Minister also mentioned that when applications were received, no member of the PSNI took up the possibility of transferring down here for the purposes of promotion. All I will say is that it is not working. Actions speak louder than words. The Minister might think it is working, given that one member transferred in each of 2009 and 2012, but I do not think it is. It is definitely not what was envisaged. I hope the Minister will encourage it. I thank him for-----

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Senator.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I know my time is up, but I am not really satisfied. If we want this to work, we could do something with pension arrangements. The PSNI has-----

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Senator, do I have to say it again?

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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No.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should not make a speech. She is supposed to ask a question.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I am just asking the Minister about his intention to take this up with the PSNI.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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The Minister gave a very comprehensive reply.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Financial and travel incentives are needed to encourage transfers to take place. Ordinary, everyday things could be done to make it easier for people to advance North-South co-operation. Basically, that is all we are looking for.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The regulations I mentioned - the Garda Síochána Act 2005 (Police Service of Northern Ireland Appointments) Regulations and the Garda Síochána Act 2005 (Section 52) Regulations - were not made until 2012. They have not been in place for a lengthy period of time. They allow members of the PSNI to apply for promotions into the Garda. We will have to wait and see how that works.

The issue in this regard is that individual gardaí cannot be compelled to make applications to transfer into the PSNI, and vice versa. People choose their careers and have career paths. In the current financial climate, I do not have the funding to provide additional financial incentives for people to transfer from the Garda to the PSNI. As Minister for Justice and Equality, I have to try to ensure we have as many members in our police force as possible. I am very happy to encourage the implementation of the intent of what was put in place. I am happy to discuss it with Minister Ford. I do not envisage that funding will be available to me to incentivise members of the Garda to apply for posts in the PSNI.

The pension issue is not quite as complicated as it sounds. If someone transfers from one force to the other, he or she retains the benefit of all the pension contributions he or she made in the force of which he or she was a member. He or she will then start making additional pension contributions in the new force. Obviously, an entitlement to certain pension payments would accumulate arising from that. I have no doubt we will return to this issue on another occasion.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister comment on the applications I mentioned? The people in question were not qualified because they did not have a certain type of training. That is why there were no transfers between the PSNI and the Garda at senior ranks. I refer to the qualifications issue I was reading about.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I am not familiar with the issue.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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If Senator Keane wishes, she can ask the Leader of the House to arrange a full debate on the matter.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I hope we will not leave it ten years again.