Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport sectoral plan and section 31 of the Disability Act, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business, without debate; and No. 2, Education and Training Boards Bill 2013 - Report Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 1.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader outline the rationale for the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, deciding tomorrow at the Bank of Ireland AGM to abstain from voting on the remuneration packages of the board of directors and senior executives, such as Mr. Boucher, who will be paid a package of €910,000, and the governor of the Bank of Ireland, whose package will be in the region of €500,000, including €49,000 for consultancy fees, and why the Minister decides, on behalf of the taxpayers who own 15% of this bank, to not even exercise his vote one way or the other? I remind the Minister that the taxpayer put €4.7 billion into Bank of Ireland, some of which has been recouped, which I welcome. I cannot understand for the life of me how the Minister for Finance, on behalf of the Irish people, is remaining silent on the remuneration package. People across this country and those to whom I speak in north Dublin do not want to remain silent on their views about the level of executive pay in the banks, specifically in Bank of Ireland. Perhaps the Leader can explain what rationale there is that the Minister-----

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Minister was able to prevent the danger of being outvoted.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Darragh O'Brien, without interruption.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I was unable to resist.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is Senator Paul Coghlan indicating?

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Not yet. I wanted to previously.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Paul Coghlan has a track record in speaking on banks. Perhaps he can tell me why the Government, on behalf of the Irish people, has no opinion on bankers' pay in Bank of Ireland.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Not true.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Certainly, many Deputies in the Lower House and Government colleagues in the Seanad rightly raised, time and again, concerns about directors' and executive pay in the banks. When Government gets an opportunity to put forward its view on the levels of pay in the banks, all I want to know is why Deputy Noonan, on behalf of the Fine Gael-Labour Party Government, abstains from voting. It makes no sense to me. What is the point in having the shareholding?

I would ask that the Leader arrange an urgent debate in this session on adult mental health services and their funding. We have held discussions in the past. I raised specific issues here. For example, the Cúram centre in Swords in north County Dublin, which has the largest catchment area of 78,000 persons in the country, has been moved out of its offices and day clinic and has been shoe-horned into the back of a medical centre. It has insufficient space to hold a day-care centre, so much so - this is where Government is prioritising mental health funding - that a new psychologist who has been appointed to this centre must work out of Coolock as there is not even room for that individual to work in this centre. A second psychologist, who is due to return from maternity leave in four weeks' time, cannot join the team in Swords and must work out of Balbriggan, and two of the psychiatric nurses work from another office. I raised this directly with the Minister as an example of our adult mental health services. If Government is serious about tackling mental health, we should not only fund it appropriately, but ensure that the physical infrastructure is there for them to do so.

These are specific examples which five months ago the Minister, Deputy Reilly, stated he would look into, but there has been no response from him.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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No, because I ask the Leader to give a commitment that in the coming weeks he will set aside some time for a proper serious debate on adult mental health services with the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, who is responsible for this area.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I congratulate those involved in making the student transition year challenge such a success. It was a remarkable experience for those of us in the Chamber during the session earlier today with 40 transition year students from secondary schools throughout the country. In particular I congratulate Senator Susan O'Keeffe, whose idea it was. I also congratulate the Cathaoirleach and the Leader, Senator Maurice Cummins, and also Cáit Hayes and others from the communications unit who were involved. It took a great deal of work to set it up. Hundreds of students from throughout the country were asked to submit essays and the best essay writers were chosen to come to Leinster House. All will agree they put forward questions and papers to us which were thoughtful, articulate, eloquent and, in some cases, very moving and beautifully crafted. It was very successful and I commend all those involved. The students put their questions in a very calm and reflective manner, which perhaps we should all emulate on the Order of Business.

To follow on from calls made last week for a debate on public sector pay in the wake of the Croke Park II agreement, I welcome the announcement that the Government has agreed to request the CEO of the Labour Relations Commission to make contact with the parties involved in the coming days to establish whether a basis for a negotiated agreement can be worked out. The Government has committed that €300 million worth of savings must be made this year and its preference, strongly expressed in recent weeks and months, is to proceed by way of consensus. It is very welcome that the Labour Relations Commission will be involved again. We all very much hope for fruitful dialogue with the unions. Proposals put forward today by Jack O'Connor offer some pause for reflection and offer a basis for an agreed settlement.

I welcome the announcement yesterday, which was raised in the House when the students were in earlier, of the Government's plan to seek to create 20,000 jobs in the manufacturing sector. It is a very worthwhile initiative and the students were very pleased to hear about it.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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At the weekend I had the pleasure of attending the Scouting Ireland delegate conference, which brought together 800 delegates representing 40,000 members. Two motions which were voted on will be of interest to the House. One was on Scouting Ireland's fears the proposed sale of Coillte will threaten its open access policy. Unbeknownst to me until I arrived, another motion had been tabled calling on the Minister for Justice and Equality to enact legislation requiring ISPs operating in Ireland to block access to all child abuse material, as has been done in Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Malta, Italy and Britain. I have raised this issue in the House and we have had a good discussion on it. Scouting Ireland voted unanimously on the motion. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, has committed that blocking will be fully considered in the context of the development of the planned sexual offences Bill. I am very concerned this Bill is scheduled for 2014. This is an urgent matter. It is about protecting real children from real abuse in the real world. I call on the Leader to convey to the Minister a request to bring forward a separate Bill to deal with this distinctly.

Today is the national day of action and raising public awareness on direct provision. I am disappointed and confused the Adjournment matter I addressed to the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, has been ruled out of order. Since the introduction of the Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Act 2009, asylum seekers cannot ever be considered habitually resident in the State. Since access to most welfare payments, including supplementary welfare allowance, is now restricted to those habitually resident in the State, and since asylum seekers cannot be considered habitually resident, I asked what is the legislative basis for the continued accommodation and payments made to asylum seekers.

This is a question for the Minister for Social Protection. For example, the payment slips to asylum seekers refer to the Department of Social Protection. However, I take the Leader on his word that the Minister has no responsibility for this matter, even though the payment slips clearly state "Department of Social Protection". I am now being directed back to the Department of Justice and Equality where I did not get an answer to this question last week, so I ask the Leader to arrange for a debate on direct provision. I have been moved from one Department to another on this issue, yet nobody is willing to take responsibility for it. I believe that we are operating outside a legislative basis with the payments. We need an answer to this question, rather than being shuttled between Departments.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I would like to endorse both the issues and concerns that Senator van Turnhout has raised - in particular, the one concerning Internet service providers. I commend the scouting associations for keeping the emphasis on this matter. The Senator's second issue was no less important.

I would be grateful if the Leader could arrange for the Minister for Health to attend the House to discuss what the Government's plans are on abortion. It seems that this issue is being debated everywhere except in this House. I am not happy or impressed by the manner in which, on the one hand, the Government is not communicating with many interested stakeholders but, on the other hand, we are being subjected to the raising of hares, leaks and counter-leaks about what the Government intends to do.

The confusion on this issue was expressed in The Irish Times today which stated, incorrectly I believe, that a small group of Fine Gael TDs and Senators remain firmly opposed to the Government's expressed strategy of giving legal clarity on abortion in cases where the mother's life is at risk. Let us be clear, everybody agrees that there must be clarity about when it is legitimate to intervene to protect a mother's life, which must always be done. The issue is suicide and there is no getting away from it. That is why it was a charade at the weekend to be talking about a panel of any kind deciding something for which there is no medical basis.

I would draw the attention of the House, including the Leader, to the latest research from Professor David Ferguson who is a pro-choice voice but a scholar who tells the truth on the issues. This was published in the Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry. Professor Ferguson finds that there is no available evidence to suggest that abortion has therapeutic effects in reducing the mental health risks of an unwanted or unintended pregnancy. He concludes that there is suggestive evidence that abortion may be associated with small to moderate increases in risks of some mental health problems, risks of anxiety, alcohol misuse and suicidal behaviour. He goes on to say that these conclusions have important, if uncomfortable, implications for clinical practice and the interpretation of the law in those jurisdictions which require abortion to be authorised on medical grounds.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is quite clear that there is a political push on to legislate for abortion in circumstances for which there is no medical basis. This has to be exposed. Last week, in response to a question asked by a Fine Gael TD in the Dáil, we heard that an oversight committee is managing this issue, including the two Labour Party Ministers of State. Who else is on this oversight committee and how come nobody else has access to the process of deliberation that is going on the whole time?

At the all-party Oireachtas committee hearings, we clearly heard they encountered no situation where there was a mental health ground justifying abortion based on suicidal ideation. Why therefore is this push on, apparently from within the Government? This cannot end happily either for the unborn or for the women most concerned. It is vital that the Government pauses this issue now and focuses on satisfying the decision of the European Court of Human Rights by giving clarity on necessary medical interventions in all cases, in physical conditions where that is not in dispute. However, this bad idea of allowing abortion on any mental health ground, without any medical or scientific basis for it, is just bad public policy and irresponsible politics.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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As my party's spokesperson on tourism and sport, I welcome today's announcement by B&B Ireland of the significant rise in bookings received in the bed and breakfast and guesthouse sector for the first three months of this year. The figures are very encouraging for all concerned.

I believe it to be a tosnú maith for the bed and breakfast and small guesthouse sector in this year of The Gathering. It augurs well for a significant increase in the number of tourists coming to the country this year. This sector offers great value for money and is very popular with our European visitors, as well as those from the United States, Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In particular, I welcome the short-stay visitors from Northern Ireland, who are receiving great value for money at present. I must admit that some of the best bed and breakfast establishments and small family-run guesthouses are to be found throughout my home county of Louth, many of which are on the Cooley Peninsula and some are in my medieval home town of Carlingford. If Members seek value, as they all do, I recommend they come to the north east, where we have much to offer the discerning visitor. I believe this to be good news for the tourism industry this year and ask the Leader to request the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to give Members up-to-date details concerning visitor numbers to date, as well as the number of visitors he anticipates will come to Ireland this year.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Darragh O'Brien has raised a reasonable question here today on the remuneration of some senior bank officials. One hears this point from people on the street and I believe the Government's opinion is exactly the same. I have never met anyone, apart perhaps from the officials themselves, who would try to justify the figures, which without question are outrageous. I accept that even were they lower, it would not make any significant difference to the balance sheet of the State. Surely, however, that is not the issue because it was agreed from the outset that austerity would be spread across the board. People at the very lowest level of income have been obliged to bear the burden of such austerity. What I find difficult to understand, this also is from where Senator O'Brien is coming, is that while everyone is clear on this position, these officials come across as the untouchables. I cannot understand how this can be the case because ultimately, they would not have a job had not the taxpayers bailed out the banks. This is the logic of what Members are dealing with in this regard and if there is an opportunity for the Minister to indicate the feeling that is abroad among the taxpayers - which I believe to be shared right across the board - such an opportunity should not be lost. Senator O'Brien also has raised this point but if there is some protocol or something about this debate that Members do not understand, they should be told what it is. On the face of it, however, Members have a difficulty with the remuneration some of the aforementioned officials are receiving. Unless a specific opportunity is availed of, such as that which now arises in which the Minister can quite clearly vote against such remuneration, there will always be people who are suffering and who feel dissatisfied with the manner in which these officials genuinely are getting away.

I ask the Leader to try to find out precisely what is the position. He might ascertain the reason Members are left in a cul-de-sac and no answers are forthcoming. He might try to find out the reason there is no logic to this debate - because there is none - and therefore unless answers are found, I genuinely believe the ordinary person in the street will not continue to bear the austerity measures with the patience and fortitude I have shown. There is no patience, no fortitude and absolutely no generosity on the part of the officials involved. This matter should be tackled straight away and if the Minister is not in a position to express people's dissatisfaction on behalf of the State and if there is some reason for this, Members should have a full debate in this House on the matter to tease out precisely the reason we find ourselves in this position. I compliment Senator O'Brien on bringing forward this matter in the Seanad today.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I stand here in incredulity regarding the bankers' pay. While I do not wish to go back over history, I am afraid I must.

The Fianna Fáil road to recovery-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Yes.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Not again.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Could the Senator ask a question of the Leader?

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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We considered Senator O'Brien's motion. Before I ask the question, I wish to say that during the Celtic tiger, when the bankers were getting pay increases, there was silence from the Government.

David Norris (Independent)
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And from the other side too.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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And the Fianna Fáil-----

David Norris (Independent)
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And Fine Gael.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We did not own the banks.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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We did not own the banks.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We had no stake in the banks.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Could Senator Harte ask a question for the Leader? We are on the Order of Business.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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What is your point? We did not have any stake in the banks.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Please, Senator O'Brien.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Senator O'Brien has answered my question.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Harte have a question for the Leader?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Could Senator Harte tell me why he is not voting on it tomorrow?

David Norris (Independent)
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The Independents were the only ones who raised the issue.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Could Senator Harte be allowed to speak without interruption? Does he have a question for the Leader? We are on the Order of Business.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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He is addressing all his comments to me. It is very unfair.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I am just coming to the question. Senator O'Brien has answered my question. He says that the pay of bankers is not an issue for him. He said-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Why would I have raised-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Brien should stop interrupting. Does Senator Harte have a question for the Leader?

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I wish to clarify the position.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I raised the issue.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Senator O'Brien said that during the Celtic tiger period we did not own the banks so it was okay then for bankers to earn €1 million a year.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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No.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Brien, please. Does Senator Harte have a question?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Harte is in government so could he tell me why he is not voting on this tomorrow?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Brien, please respect the Chair.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I do respect the Chair.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Harte have a question for the Leader?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Harte is losing the run of himself.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Harte have a question for the Leader?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I do not even know what he is talking about.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Harte have a question for the Leader?

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I want to ask the Leader to ask the leader of the Fianna Fáil group to give a response following a debate in the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis this weekend on why bankers' pay reached such levels. It was not because of this Government.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a question for the Leader.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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It is really the Bertie legacy.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Is Senator Harte asking me that question?

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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We are dealing with the Bertie legacy.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Brien, please.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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There is no shame on the other side of the House.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh, but I have no protection.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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There will be less shame at the weekend.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Harte is way over time. I call Senator Barrett.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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It is the Bobby Ewing effect. One can come out of the shower and forget about everything that happened previously.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I join everyone who has praised the Seanad Éireann transition year student challenge which we had this morning. It was a splendid occasion and credit is due to everyone associated with its organisation.

One discordant note was communicated to the Minister for Education and Science by the heads of Irish universities. If I got the quote correctly, it was that young people arrive in universities "not fit for purpose". I have the advantage over the heads of Irish universities in that I give lectures to freshmen and I do not recognise their caricature of undergraduates. External examiners tell us that the students are of the highest standard. The troika lectured to students during a visit and they said they were splendid. I said that none of them works in the Department of Finance or in banks. Attempts by bodies such as IBEC and the heads of Irish universities to denigrate young people do not add much to the scene and it is not confirmed by the evidence. Approximately 50 people, all adults, some in politics, others in senior public service, banking, building and property, brought the country to the state it is in today. It is unfair of any group in society to blame 18 year olds.

David Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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They are the solution. They were splendid this morning, as you know, a Chathaoirligh. I will vote in favour of allowing 16 year olds to vote if the people we had in this morning are representative of young people in this country. Empire builders and public relations people in universities and IBEC do not seem to think when they make disparaging and snide remarks about the standard of young people in this country. I wish that to be on the record of the day because the previous remark could not be corrected at the time it was made. The heads of Irish universities gave a wrong impression. Most of them have long left the lecturing hall and do not really know what is going on. The present generation is a credit to this country and their families.

David Norris (Independent)
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Well said.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I wish to revert to an article in yesterday's edition of The Irish Times with the headline "€18 million bridge on Border hit by politics". It was a well-researched article but its thesis is not correct. I would like the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to confirm that because I have been involved in the project for a long time, as has Senator Brennan.

Last week I visited Stormont, met people from all parties and brought the Warrenpoint Chamber of Commerce to Dublin where they met the Taoiseach. The reality is there is great support, North and South, for this bridge. The Minister for Regional Development, Mr. Danny Kennedy, MLA, advertised the order for the bridge last week. Although it is true that the Minister for Finance, Mr. Sammy Wilson, MLA, has yet to issue the letter of offer, namely, the money from the Northern side, he could not be expected to do that before the bridge order is signed. It is unhelpful, therefore, for certain politicians to be playing politics with this. This bridge was considered by all parties. Members of all parties had their views, both for and against, not only those on the Unionist side. It is important to remember that. It is unhelpful to blame politicians when they have to consider whether to let the project continue. It is better to work behind the scenes.

The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, has been top-class on this matter. Everybody, including Ms Catriona Ruane, MLA, of Sinn Féin, acknowledges that, which is praise indeed. The good news is-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is over time.

Michael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for his indulgence. Yesterday I spoke to the former Minister for Justice and Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Do not believe him.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is way over time.

Michael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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He is a neighbour. He said that when he brought this matter up with Dr. Ian Paisley at the Farmleigh meeting Dr. Paisley said, with tears in his eyes, that he supported this bridge.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I fail to see where Senator D'Arcy is heading.

David Norris (Independent)
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I want to hear about the tears in Dr. Paisley's eyes.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I am starting to get emotional.

Michael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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It is very important and that is the reason I ask this of the Leader. It is also very important that the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, confirms to this House and to the nation that the timeframe for this bridge is on schedule and that it will come about.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I am very pleased that Senator D'Arcy is building bridges of his own across the political divide. I support him in the call he has made for common sense to prevail and for people to stop playing games with this issue which is far too important.

I raise the issue of social housing and housing in general. On a number of occasions in this House the Sinn Féin party has raised the issue of housing. Last year we used Private Members' time, the sole opportunity we have on a yearly basis, to raise the issues of provision of social housing and rent supplement. We saw a crisis which was evident at that time and which, unfortunately, has got much worse since then.

As Senators will know, in this State we have had a major change in policy in social housing over the past ten years, away from local authorities to building social housing blocks or estates and being given funding to do so. There was Part 5 social and affordable housing and also the private rented sector. I agree with part of the policy and do not agree with other parts. We have now found ourselves in a situation where local authorities do not have any money to build any social housing. Part 5 goes to the private sector and new builds have completely dried up. There are no new builds and no new housing stock coming into play. The vast majority of housing needs are being met through the private rented sector, either through rent supplement or the rental accommodation scheme, RAS. What we see now is a crisis within a crisis. I can testify to that in terms of my own dealings with people in Waterford who are either in RAS houses or waiting to get into them. We have a crisis within a crisis where there is a reduction in the amount of money people can get through rent supplement and there have been changes to rent caps.

At present, landlords, mainly in Dublin but also in other urban areas throughout the State, are either unable or unwilling to repay their mortgages. As a result, their properties are being repossessed by the banks and RAS applicants are simply being turfed out. There is no support for the latter. We need to return to the drawing board in the context of the provision of social housing in the State. Will the Leader arrange a debate on housing? There are many facets to this matter, including mortgage distress - this is a hugely important issue and the Government has not done enough in respect of it - and the crisis in social housing, and they must be dealt with. I would welcome it if the Leader made time available for a debate on this important issue.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator Cullinane's call for a debate on housing. I have raised this matter on previous occasions in the House. In view of the fact that there are massive housing lists in place at present, it is important to pose the question as to why so many thousands of people are obliged to live in dreadfully inadequate conditions when there are tens of thousands of vacant accommodation units throughout the country. As in the past, the relevant Departments must come together to resolve this matter. This State has experienced many economic problems since its foundation. During periods of economic difficulty in the 1930s, the 1950s, the 1970s and the 1980s, the then Governments - which were of a variety of political hues - invested money in housing programmes. Such programmes ensured people were given decent homes in which to live. The thinking which obtained in respect of this matter in the past must come to the fore again. We must try to deal with the housing crisis because the obvious social problems and problems relating to crime to which it is giving rise need to be addressed. I support the call for an urgent debate on this matter.

I wish to comment briefly on the current economic situation and the Government's decision earlier today to re-engage with the trade union movement. I support that decision because talk is better than confrontation. However, we must be realistic in our discussions with the trade union movement and with the public sector unions in particular. In that context, we must ensure that no one becomes removed from reality. The Government must save €1 billion on public sector pay and pensions. We must ensure we have a public sector in respect of which we can afford a pay and pensions bill and which the economy can afford to sustain into the future. There may have been difficulties with the deal that was previously on offer and perhaps it might be possible to consider a tweaking of that arrangement. However, the message must go out loud and clear from those on the political side of the debate that the €1 billion in savings to which I refer must come from within the public sector. Taxpayers and those in the private sector can pay no more and those in the latter sector who lost their jobs can afford to lose no more. That is the economic reality in which this country still finds itself. That reality must be taken into account in the context of any negotiations which take place.

David Norris (Independent)
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I completely agree with my colleague, Senator Mullen, that the Government's approach to legislating on the abortion issue is completely unsatisfactory. I say this because the issue of health is not being addressed as part of the process. I refer, in particular, to situations where young girls might be the victims of incest or rape. It is absolutely unconscionable that people should try to force a young woman who might be in such a position to carry a baby to full term in order to satisfy their consciences and nothing else. I was not surprised to hear distinguished medical experts refer to this matter. One such expert indicated that what is going on is reminiscent of the Taliban, while another likened it to what happened during the Inquisition. I cannot understand how anybody would want to proceed as has been suggested. Of course, no young person would be forced to have an abortion.

Senator Mullen also indicated that he is not impressed with the Government's lack of communication with the stakeholders involved. I support the Senator's call for a debate on this matter and I would like those stakeholders to be identified during any such debate. I would like to know who those stakeholders are and who Senator Mullen believes are the people who need the information to which he refers.

We have to be careful when we quote so-called experts. I have not had the pleasure of reading Mr. Ferguson's analysis. I am sure he is a highly distinguished man. Certainly, he brought Pat Kenny to indignant life this morning on the wireless when Senator Mullen produced all this stuff. Coincidentally, this morning I received a distinguished paper from someone on completely the other side. I am supporting the call for a debate on this issue.

There are two other matters I wish to raise quickly. Will the Leader confirm for me, if he can, the outrageous allegation - it is even more outrageous if it is true - that the ECB instructed the IBRC not to comply with freedom of information requests from interested parties in terms of the banks? It is outrageous if someone in Europe was telling us that we cannot release information to our citizens under the Freedom of Information Act, which is domestic legislation. This I find absolutely shocking.

I agree with everyone who spoke on the matter that it was immensely reassuring to hear those wonderful young people and to read their essays. One or two of them were quite brilliant. There was a note of real sadness - I am sure the Cathaoirleach detected it himself - in those who said that to their immense regret they were afraid that because of economic circumstances they might not find a future in this country. I found that really troubling.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I wanted to raise the matter of the Marketplace Fairness Act, which has got the backing of the Senate in the United States. It is designed to force online retailers like Amazon, eBay and such sites to collect state and local sales taxes. This could mean changes for Ireland and I am keen to know exactly what it could mean for Irish consumers and businesses. The intent is to ensure that online retailers and bricks-and-mortar shops are competing on a level playing field. However, I am concerned about how exactly it will be implemented and the way it could potentially impact.

It is uncertain at this stage how it will operate for consumers in the EU. All of us know how VAT is applied when an Irish consumer buys from the United Kingdom or France but it is not entirely certain how this would apply in the case of buying from the USA. There is a possibility of our being charged US sales tax and Irish VAT. This seems to me to be a distinct possibility.

From a political perspective any significant change such as this in US taxation policy needs to be watched closely by us. Ireland has a great strategic interest in the US and given that the level of investment in both directions is at unprecedented levels, we need to monitor such Acts, which could have an impact on us. I wish to find out with certainty what it means for Ireland, Irish consumers and Irish business, as it poses several questions for businesses which operate here and there. Although it is not something I expect the Minister for Finance to come to debate as a full debate, I would be grateful if it could be included as part of a larger debate when he is next in the House.

I echo the suggestion of Senator O'Brien to have a debate on adult mental health services. It is long overdue and I hear what he is saying. I have some people coming in tomorrow from the area of visual art therapy to discuss how it helps people with different difficulties. That will be tomorrow evening at 5 p.m. I hope Senators might come along to hear what the therapists and the organisation have to say and how helpful this therapy can be in the area of mental health.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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A Chathaoirligh, it is not unusual to hear you rule frequently that it is not appropriate to comment on any investigation, inquiry or case while it is in process. Last Thursday I was watching the end of the Order of Business on the monitor in my office. I was absolutely shocked to see this practice abused by the Deputy Leader, Senator Ivana Bacik. She commented on the inquest in Galway into the death of Savita Halappanavar.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, that question was dealt with at the time. She was acting as Leader on the day and she was responding to questions.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Fair enough.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Have you a question for the Leader?

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Yes, I do have a question. Is it not fair that the same treatment is given to all Members as to the Deputy Leader? She commented without the inquest having been concluded.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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She has a different role when she is acting as Leader of the House.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I also felt it was-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Have you a question for the Leader?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It was an abuse of her role.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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She abused her position as Deputy Leader to advance one side of the debate on abortion.

David Norris (Independent)
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Are we dealing with today's Order of Business or last week's?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It is an important point.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We cannot have a discussion on this matter.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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This must be said because we need an open debate.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Yes. I call for a fair debate on the abortion issue that is open to all sides, as advanced by Senators Norris and Mullen. The Deputy Leader should not abuse her role-----

David Norris (Independent)
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The word "abuse" is not right. I do not believe that Senator Bacik abused her position and I ask Senator Healy Eames to withdraw it.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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My point is made, but it was an abuse.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Chair dealt with this issue last week.

David Norris (Independent)
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Senator Healy Eames should not claim that the Deputy Leader abused her position. This is ridiculous.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Why not? The Deputy Leader did.

David Norris (Independent)
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She did not.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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She did.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Has Senator Healy Eames a question for the Leader?

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Today's public consultation with the young senators was fantastic. Will the Leader invite the President to attend the Seanad-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Yes, but I would like to propose it-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator can raise the matter with her group's leader, who will bring it to the CPP.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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-----for this term, if possible. The President brings a great deal of wisdom and admiration to his role.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has gone way over time.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Last week, he referred to being in contact with the vulnerability of the people. Senators could benefit from that.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Without re-opening the debate, some of us on this side of the House agree with Senator Healy Eames's comments. Our query relates to how Senator Bacik seemed not to separate her role as a Senator from that of her role as Deputy Leader. No one on this side of the House had an opportunity to respond to her position.

When is it intended for the Minister for Finance or the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Brian Hayes, to appear before the House? In the past week, there has been a flurry of activity primarily in the international media, to some extent reflected in the national media, arising from a paper published by two economists in America that is now seen to be flawed. Their premise was that high debt led to low growth, but this is being challenged. Commentary has culminated in reports in today's Irish Independent of remarks by European Commission President Barroso to the effect that austerity is not working.

David Norris (Independent)
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We wake up at last.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Is there an opportunity for the House to debate the question of whether austerity works? It is becoming increasingly obvious to everyone that it does not work. The last budget was the tipping point for the majority of taxpayers. With water charges and the property tax coming down the line, a further €2 billion or €2.5 billion remaining to be taken out of the economy, although on which no decision has been made, and taking into account the €300 million in savings that would have been made following the passage of Croke Park II, up to €3 billion will be removed from the economy. People will say that enough is enough and will not be able to take any more. Therefore, it is incumbent on the Government to determine how to introduce a comprehensive stimulus package that would make a serious dent in the unemployment figures.

There are two examples of such an initiative working. First, the reduction in VAT to 9% stimulated the hotel and restaurant industries, resulting in the creation of some 5,000 jobs. In the context of The Gathering, this initiative has proven to be of particular significance in expanding employment. Second, the car scrappage scheme increased the number of jobs in the motor industry by creating an economic stimulus. If the Government is seeking examples because it may be soft on this issue or because some of its economists are making flawed judgments, I have provided two perfect examples of stimulus packages working. Will the House debate alternatives in advance of the Government's discussion on the Estimates? Perhaps the Minister or Minister of State could attend the House. Will the Leader provide at least an hour's debate for this issue.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate everybody involved with the transition year student challenge held earlier today in the Seanad, as it was a wonderful event. Like some previous speakers, I was very concerned to hear young people say they felt there is not a future in this country for them, so all of us as politicians must redouble our efforts to ensure there is a future for these people by taking decisions in this House and the wider Oireachtas to continue helping our country in its recovery from the turmoil we have endured for a number of years.

I welcome the announcement yesterday by the Government that 20,000 new manufacturing jobs will be created by 2016. The Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, set up a task force last year led by industry experts to formulate a plan. Forfás and the expert group on future skills needs put together an action plan in this regard. The key actions being proposed across a range of areas include access to funding, management training and supports, cost reductions and technology adoption. I was in two venues yesterday, in Castlebar and Ballinasloe, meeting people from small businesses and the retail sector. One area of cost that seems to be crippling all types of business is energy, and we should have a debate in this House in the near future with the Minister responsible for the area in order to see how we can address the issue. Whether we are talking about small hotels or other businesses, the cost of energy and specifically electricity is absolutely crucifying them.

I ask the Leader to engage again with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation on the jobs programme. Every quarter, at least, we have a very forthright and useful discussion with the Minister, and in light of yesterday's announcement, we should engage further so that we can keep pressure on and ensure the fears expressed by young people today will not come to pass in future. We must lay a solid foundation for significant economic growth in the next number of years.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator Cullinane on the housing issue. It is not only about the problems that local authorities have in managing their housing stock as there is also an issue regarding vacant housing. As I understand it, Cork City Council has over 500 vacant houses, so we must devise new schemes to bring such properties back into use. If necessary, we should work with the private sector to bring them back into use rather than having them left idle. I agree with Senator Cullinane in that during the economic downturn in the 1980s, there were initiatives put in place to help the housing market, so we should consider the matter again.

There are people in local authority housing in a financial position to buy a property but we are not doing enough to encourage them to do so. Housing prices have decreased and even in the past week, somebody came to me asking what was the procedure to buy a property. That person had an adequate income to buy and the repayments for a mortgage would be less than the rent paid to the local authority. There is also the issue of making money available to local authorities to repair existing houses.

I will refer to the current procedure in the High Court with regard to taxation of costs, which I have raised previously. There is much delay in the taxation of costs, meaning there is a cash flow problem in many legal practices across the country. I ask for a proposal to be put to the Taoiseach and Minister for Justice and Equality. Currently, there are two taxing masters in the High Court and I suggest we appoint a third. This would be cost-neutral as every time the taxing master makes an award of costs, he or she is also entitled to collect stamp duty, which would be sufficient to cover the cost of employing a taxing master. I ask for a third taxing master to be appointed, even if it is only for a two-year period, to deal with the significant delays arising from the volume of work being presented to the existing taxing masters.

My request should be taken on board. Will the Leader bring this matter to the attention of the Minister for Justice and Equality to resolve many legal practices' outstanding cash flow problems?

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Darragh O'Brien's calls, so ably supported by Senator Ó Murchú, were understandable and I am sure they consider them good politics.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Of course. As Senator Darragh O'Brien pointed out, the State's equity in Bank of Ireland is 15%. It used to own more, but millions of euro have been repaid. It is the bank's stated intention to repay the remainder in the shortest possible time.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I know all of that. It is not the point.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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There are State guidelines on bankers' remuneration.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Which are exceeded by the chief executive.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, they do not enjoy the force of law.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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For God's sake.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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This is especially so if one is going to be outgunned by the shareholders, that is, if one owns 15% and is up against the other 85% at an annual general meeting, AGM. I do not know the answer, but I suspect that the Minister probably believes-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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He has given up.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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-----it is best to abstain in all circumstances because the proxies will be stacked against him.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is Senator Paul Coghlan asking or answering a question for the Leader?

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It is about symbolism.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I do not have a question as such. I wanted to point out-----

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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People are playing at the gates. They are waiting for the Senator.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Due to my macular edema, I have a slight difficulty in reading a word that I wrote in my notes, but Senator Darragh O'Brien gets the gist of what I am saying and of the position in law.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I am still none the wiser, but I thank the Senator for trying to help.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I will speak with the Senator later.

Michael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I support the call for a debate on housing. My interest was tweaked when, at the weekend, I read on a full page spread in one of the Sunday publications the news that the former Clancy Barracks development of 420 units was being sold by an international auctioneering firm, which I assume is operating under the instruction of receivers, themselves operating under the instruction of NAMA. NAMA, an organ of this State that is obliged to accrue as much money for the State as possible, will effectively sell 420 dwelling units for a super value per unit, most likely to international equity investors.

As tens of thousands of young Irish people are struggling to get on the property ladder, this is a wonderful opportunity. Be it in the form of a local authority, the Department of the Environment, Culture and Local Government or other established bodies, the State could purchase the units at the prices NAMA or the receivers will achieve and sell them as affordable housing. The State has a magnificent history of providing affordable housing, mainly to young people starting their homes.

It is a scandal that we are going to give international investors the opportunity to double or quadruple their money. How much they will receive is unknown because NAMA is forcing the sale. At €1,000 per unit, the development could be sold for €420,000. At €10,000, it would be €4.2 million. At €20,000, it would be almost €9 million. We would not collapse any market by buying at €20,000 per unit and giving citizens an opportunity to buy an affordable dwelling.

We should debate housing, a matter that covers several Departments. We keep discussing the relevance of this Chamber. If the Seanad can shine a spotlight on this type of appalling practice and provide citizens an opportunity to purchase one of the units in question, we will have done them a good service.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I know that our time is nearly over, but I wish to mention the OECD report on pensions, which was mentioned in the newspapers. Any attempt to means test the State pension should be resisted by all. It is ridiculous and I cannot understand how any policy maker could come up with the idea. People worked and contributed all of their lives. They and their employers paid 14% PRSI but to what benefit if they are not to be given their State pensions? It makes no sense that people who worked for all of their lives and put some savings aside will end up with less money than those who sat on their proverbial rears and did not save anything. Policy makers believe that the public sector is up in arms over a proposed reduction in wages, but every worker should be up in arms and resist the pensions change. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Social Protection to attend the House when she gets the chance for a debate on the pensions report?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Darragh O'Brien, the Leader of the Opposition, raised the question of Bank of Ireland and the Minister's reason for not voting against the proposed remuneration at the AGM. As the Senator well knows, the review of bank executives' pay was conducted by consultants Mercer. The Minister wrote to the banks seeking remuneration cuts of between 6% and 10%. As this process has not yet concluded, it would not be appropriate for the Minister to express an opinion at the institution's AGM. However, it is a serious matter and I hope that we can revert to it soon.

In the past 12 months, the House has held three debates on adult mental health services, but we can arrange a further debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, who has spent a good deal of time discussing that and other matters in her portfolio in the House.

Senator Bacik and others who were present referred to today's excellent session with young people, who made bright, constructive, articulate and thought-provoking presentations. It is incumbent on us to listen to young people's concerns at every opportunity. I compliment everyone involved, including the young people, their parents and teachers and the Ministers, Deputies Quinn and Fitzgerald, who also gave of their time to respond in the House. I thank the organisers. It was time well spent for the House and I congratulate all involved.

Senator van Turnhout referred to the scouting association's concerns about access to forests. I assure her that access will be protected. The Minister is on record in this regard. I noted the Senator's comments on the serious issue of websites being blocked and child abuse.

A debate on direct provision was requested. We will try to arrange one. Most Senators requested Ministers' attendance, but we are in the middle of the Irish Presidency of the EU and it is difficult to arrange Ministers' attendance in the House for business other than legislation. I assure Senators that I will endeavour to do the best I can to have as many Ministers as possible attend to discuss the issues raised by Senators.

Senator Mullen referred to the maternal protection Bill.

I understand it is the intention of the Government that the Bill will come before the House in this session, with the heads being published soon. The health committee will debate the Bill and both Houses will have ample time to debate the issue before the summer recess.

Senator Brennan spoke about improved bookings in the bed and breakfast and guesthouse sector. It is good news for tourism and the economy, and it augurs well for the success of The Gathering. We welcome those figures and hope they translate to other sections of the tourism industry to the end of the year. I also note Senator Ó Murchú's remarks on the banks, which I have referred to in my reply to Senator O'Brien. Senator Harte mentioned that very little was said when bankers were getting over €1 million each in salary when the previous Government was in power. I suppose people tend to forget such things.

Senator Barrett mentioned that heads of universities have been making disparaging remarks about young people leaving secondary schools. I noted the Minister's comments on the issue and I share Senator Barrett's views on it. Senator D'Arcy commented on the view that an €18 million bridge project is being delayed by politics, arguing that politics are not causing the delay. He called on the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, to provide a timescale and ensure that the project remains on schedule. I will try to ascertain the current position of the project, and there has been great political support from both sides of the House and the Border for the project. The sooner it goes ahead, the better for all concerned.

Senators Cullinane, Bradford, Burke and others spoke about housing. A Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, was in the House on 6 February to discuss housing projects and we will endeavour to bring her back to the House. It is disheartening to hear, as Senator Burke noted, that 500 council houses are vacant in Cork, as it seems to be a very high number. Some schemes should be put in place to repair and bring houses up to standard so they can be let to deserving applicants.

I note Senator Norris's comments regarding a maternal protection Bill and freedom of information. He also noted the wonderful young people we had in the House earlier today. Senator Noone spoke about the regulation of online retailers in the US and how we should monitor the impact on Ireland and the EU. I also note her comments regarding mental health. I should clarify the position of the Deputy Leader for Senator Healy Eames. She was the acting Leader last week when she was responding to questions on the Order of Business from the other side of the House. She responded to questions, as is her right as acting Leader, on the maternity protection Bill in particular.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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She went on a frolic of her own.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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We will raise the matter of inviting the President with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Senator Mooney called on the Minister for Finance or the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, to come to the House to discuss the issue of high debt and low growth. The Senator would agree that these two Ministers in particular have been very generous with their time in coming to the House, especially when the country holds the EU Presidency. We will invite them nonetheless. The Minister made comments about property tax and water charges, which the previous Government signed up to.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Do not play dirty. That is not correct.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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With regard to economic stimulus, the Minister stated only today that if there is money available, it will go to economic stimulus.

Senator Mullins spoke about the young people here today, and they wanted the truth from politicians and everybody else in society. They want things told as they are. I note the Senator's points on the plan for manufacturing jobs, and I will ask the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, to address the matter and perhaps even address the costs to small business that were raised by the Senator.

Senator Burke spoke about the delay in taxing costs in the courts, which he mentioned before, and suggested the appointment of a third taxing master. I will bring that matter to the attention of the Minister and I urge Senator Burke to do the same. Senator Paul Coghlan spoke about Bank of Ireland, emphasising that the Government only has a 15% holding in the bank and that the institution has repaid quite an amount of the money that has been paid into it. Senator D'Arcy also spoke about housing and 420 units that have been put up for sale. It is incumbent on the city council or a Department to get involved in the purchase of those units.

I note Senator Moloney's point on the very important OECD report on pensions and I will ask at the earliest opportunity that the Minister for Social Protection come to the House. Looking at the seven or eight Members present now, I think I will revert to replying only to the people here at the time.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.