Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Dinny McGinley. We will discuss No. 22, motion No. 11, a no confidence motion in the Minister for Justice and Equality and Defence and I call Senator Thomas Byrne.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to make a brief point of order.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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A point of order, Senator.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Justice and Equality, and Minister for Defence, Deputy Shatter, is not present. The Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, is always welcome here. We have great relations with him and he has great expertise in his area but he is not the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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As the Senator well knows, any Minister or Minister of State can represent the Government in the House.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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He is one of our most able Ministers.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I do not dispute his expertise. Last week we had a great debate with him.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator cannot discuss the matter because it is not a point of order.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The motion relates to the Minister for Justice and Equality and Defence. As I understand it, there is a Minister of State at the Department of Defence who is also the Chief Whip.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It is still a point of order.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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It is a point of order. The Minister's absence is completely unsatisfactory and disrespectful.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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It is not a point of order. I cannot accept it as a point of order because any Minister or Minister of State can represent the Government.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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It is symbolic of the arrogance of the Minister for Justice and Equality and is the reason that gardaí all around Ireland have lost confidence in the Minister.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator wish to withdraw his motion?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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No.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask Senator Byrne to proceed with the motion.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I move:

"That Seanad Éireann has no confidence in the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence Alan Shatter T.D., because of his on-going erosion of the physical security infrastructure of the State through Garda station and Army Barrack closures, systematic undermining of Garda numbers and resources with a deeply inadequate budget allocation and abject failure to address the declining morale in the Garda and Prison Officer force the combined impact of which will directly impact on the frontline protection of citizens across the country.".

The Minister has lost the confidence of the Garda and the Army. He is dismantling the security infrastructure of the State through the closures of Garda stations and Army barracks. He is involved in an ongoing row between Garda representative bodies which emphasises the mutual distrust on all sides. It is not good for the security of the State that Garda representatives and the gardaí should have no confidence in the Minister, they should be united. Unfortunately the Garda, which consists of over 10,000 men and women who serve the country well, has no confidence in the Minister. It is on that basis that he should not continue in his role. I call on Seanad Éireann to agree with those organisations and members of the Garda Síochána in their no confidence and to vote no confidence in him in the House.

The Minister, in an underhanded manner, has dropped the financial allocation for the Garda so that it effectively applies to 12,000 members. As many as 100 Garda stations have been closed and a couple more are to be closed around the country. Such moves are an attack on the Garda Síochána by the Minister. He has asked people living in commuter belt areas or areas which have no Garda station in rural Ireland to contact the Garda by Facebook. That recommendation is deeply insulting to people who have been victims of crime. It is a joke.

I have heard some politicians state that burglaries have decreased. In the Meath Garda division, with which I am most familiar, and I am sure my colleagues can state a similar experience around the country, burglaries have increased from 208 in the first quarter of 2009 to 322 in the third quarter of 2012. That means that burglaries have increased by over 50% in the Meath Garda division. The Garda has reported a similar increase in all the eastern and Dublin regions. Therefore, instances of burglaries have increased despite people saying that they have decreased.

The Fianna Fáil Party has put forward a fully costed alternative budget.

Under our proposal, we would reopen Templemore for Garda recruitment and keep rural stations open. The Minister has stated that there is no financial saving in closing these stations. He is only doing it because it is his belief that the Garda Síochána should not have a presence and should be online and that gardaí should be performing tasks other than interacting with communities. We disagree wholeheartedly with his vision of policing.

The Minister of State will refer to the IMF agreement and claim that the Department of Justice and Equality is spending more than Fianna Fáil supposedly projected in the four-year development plan. However, this would ignore the fact that more taxes than projected are entering the system, making it possible for a larger allocation to be made. It would also ignore the fact that the Government claims it is tied down by the IMF agreement on many other matters. For example, it is sorry that it cannot change the property tax "because of the IMF agreement". However, the Government claims that it spends more when doing so suits it. The Government has reduced capital spending around the country significantly, as people are constantly reminded. An element of this is the closure of Garda stations.

There has been a stealth cutback in my area in the form of mergers between Garda divisions, with no recognition of population factors or crime statistics. If a superintendent retires in one division, the numbers will be made up by merging the divisions and placing the other division's superintendent in charge of both. There is no thought process or strategic plan and mergers are not being done in the interests of the public. After east and south Meath Garda divisions were merged, they covered nearly half of the county's population and certainly half of its crimes but possessed less than half of the resources. Management decisions that make no sense and are not thought through are being made in response to the retirement of personnel whom the Government forced out of the service and the retirement of those who will be forced out because of budgetary decisions.

The Minister has also undermined the security infrastructure of the State in terms of the armed forces. Army barracks play a vital role around the country in the local economies and communities in which they are based. The Minister should not have proceeded with the closures. They have proven to be a social, personal and financial inconvenience to the affected members of the armed forces. They must drive considerable distances to get to work, which costs them significant amounts of money. The number of members of the armed forces who are in receipt of the family income supplement from the Department of Social Protection is an embarrassment to the State. Despite risking their lives in the Army every day, they must claim FIS payments because their wages are not large enough.

While we have yet to examine the full implications of the Croke Park II deal, they seem to be considerable for members of the Defence Forces. The last few pages of the deal outline a detailed programme of cuts to Army personnel, who are already among some of the lowest paid workers in the public sector. Examining the level of cuts will take the soldiers time.

The Seanad should have no confidence in the Minister. He fails to appear before us, arrogantly waves away any opposition or dissent, does not take into account the feelings of the people on the ground who know best and is pleased to sit in his office giving orders and directions that are not agreed with by citizens or their security and police services.

I wish to pay tribute to the gardaí and Army personnel who continue performing their duties in difficult circumstances. However, their job is becoming increasingly difficult. A new direction, new approach and new vision of policing are necessary. That vision cannot be stuck in an office on the other side of this building. It must grapple with and debate the issues and improve the country's policing service.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I second the motion. We debated many of these issues three weeks ago when I put 14 questions to the Minister. He failed to respond to nine or ten of them. Had he been more open and responsive, this motion might not have been tabled today. For example, I asked a sincere question on the lack of progress in capturing certain individuals and bringing them before the courts for the murder of Detective Garda Donohoe. The Minister tried to twist my question into a criticism of the Garda, which was not the case. I hope that the individuals concerned will be brought to justice sooner rather than later, but I am concerned that other issues will be factors, for example, people living in Northern Ireland, issues of extradition, etc. These issues could and should have been addressed by the Minister.

I also raised at great length the issue of the closure of rural Garda stations. Were it not for an active rural alliance group in west Cork, several other stations would have been closed. Its members attended Oireachtas briefings to meet the Garda Commissioner and made a strong case for at least six or seven rural stations.

Today, I received an e-mail from a Garda crime prevention officer in my area to the effect that he was concerned about a spate of burglaries in Cork city and permeating towns throughout west Cork, a problem typical of what is occurring elsewhere in rural Ireland.

I wish to read into the record a number of points made to me in an e-mail from an anonymous source. Doing so would be appropriate, as it mainly concerns the lack of morale in the Defence Forces. The e-mail states:

I cannot give my name as I am a middle ranking army officer with over 20 years service, including tours of duty in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and the Balkans. I have led soldiers on operational service at home and abroad.

Morale is at crisis point in the Defence Forces. Like every other public servant the Defence Forces will endure "parity of pain". I am part of the coping class. However, there are many in the Defence Forces who cannot any longer. I have personal experience of many truly loyal, hard working and professional soldiers with over 20 years service on Family Income Supplement. They do all they can to put food on the table and family through "free education". Now they are genuinely at their wits end.

They understand the country is in real financial trouble. But they do not understand why this agent of the state that has downsized constantly is continually enduring more reductions, cutbacks, paycuts and pain. And there is more to come with an "across the board" 10% cut in allowances and basic pay cuts as part of Croke Park II.

When I joined the Army the Defence Forces had a strength which was over 13,000, now it is below 9,500. In 25 years that is a reduction of 27% of manpower. Simultaneously 20 barracks were closed. This includes nine barracks closed in the last 5 years. As public spending increased over 120% in the boom we grew our spending by 27%, and completely modernised. Yet, before the crash in 2007, the average pay in the Defence Forces was the 3rd lowest in the public sector, below those in The Irish Prison Service or An Garda Síochána.

It seems that soldiers, sailors and aircrew are being completely taken advantage of. We cannot strike. This is not something I have an issue with, as I swore an oath of loyalty to Ireland and the Constitution. In 2013, I remain proud of that oath and what it means. This oath brings responsibility for us. If there is another "blue flu" I will be on stand-by for public order tasks, as I was in 1998. Yet, it also brings responsibility from the state and the government of the day.

Oaths, loyalty, sense of duty, pride in the uniform of the state; these are not issues considered among the Twitter-ati or the Chattering classes. They are old fashioned, simple, enduring and binding. I ask every public representative to examine what they know of the Defence Forces and show its members the loyalty they deserve.

When I raised this issue in the House previously, I had a difficult and contentious debate on the appointment of the Army judge with the Minister, Deputy Shatter. He seemed to believe that some of my points were personal or misguided, but I had been given information by an unknown soldier.

The situation outlined in this e-mail could be replicated in the case of the Garda. I have been contacted by at least 30 or 40 gardaí throughout the country who have asked me what I am doing as a public representative to get the Minister to listen to them. Were he more amenable to meeting rank and file gardaí, the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, and the Garda Representative Association, GRA, morale would be much better. It was undoubtedly due to the lack of respect shown by the Minister and his lack of engagement with the GRA and AGSI that both groups decided to walk out of the Croke Park II talks.

In itself, that indicates again a breakdown in communication.

I have had great respect for many years for the Minister of State who is present, Deputy McGinley, but I concur with the sentiments expressed by my colleague in that the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, should have been present for this motion, which is serious and which was not entered into lightly. That is the reason I decided to second its proposal. I appeal to the Minister to listen to members of the Garda and Defence Forces, along with everybody else who is in some way under his remit. He is not listening and he will learn a very hard lesson over the next year or two.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after ??Seanad Éireann?? and substitute the following:"has confidence in the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence, Alan Shatter T.D., and commends him for the effective manner in which he is discharging his Ministerial functions.".

No Minister has served the current Seanad better than the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, who has attended the House for detailed debate on legislation and accepted amendments across a wide range of Bills. More than any Minister in the Government, he has shown how useful and successful a Seanad can be. For that alone, he deserves the full credit of the House.

If in 100 years somebody was to search with Google for instances of scandal in the Departments dealing with justice or defence, what names or political parties would emerge straight away? One would see the names "Moran", "Gibbons" and "Burke" and others. I could go further. One would not see the names "Shatter", "Noonan" or "Dukes".

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, the Senator specified a number of individuals. There are known issues with some but the Senator has suggested historical allegations about other names.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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It is an outrageous act.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The remark must be withdrawn.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Some issues are self-evident but others are not.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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Such as?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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In fairness, the Acting Chairman should rule on that.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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That is not a point of order.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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So he is allowed to make allegations.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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He is allowed to make allegations and drop names to associate them with scandals.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I invite the Senators to Cavan to see the high esteem in which the Minister, Deputy Shatter, is held there.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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This is not a motion about scandal.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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Senator Bradford, without interruption.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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This is a motion about the management of our Department of Defence and Department of Justice and Equality, and I have every confidence in the current Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter. We should request the Opposition to engage in a policy debate rather than an attack on the Minister's personality. When we first discussed these matters a number of weeks ago, the challenge was laid down to the Opposition that if it wanted to spend more money on the Department of Defence, the Department of Justice and Equality and the Garda, it should let us know from where the money will come. The taxpayer will foot the bill for every Department and everybody must recognise that the current resources of the State are extremely limited, notwithstanding the significant progress made over the two years or so in turning around this State's finances or the progress on the promissory notes or this week's events in banking. The country is still in a state of financial peril and every ¤1 paid by the taxpayer to a Department must be managed well.

I would love to see endless resources for the Garda and Army but, sadly, that is not available. That kind of resourcing may have been available during the so-called Celtic tiger but how was it used? What was the level of crime five or ten years ago compared with now? In most cases, the rate was higher. The Garda, the Army and everybody connected to the defence of the State must be congratulated for the way in which they are using very limited resources and putting them to maximum use.

We can consider some of the statistics. On 31 December 2012, there were 13,424 members of the Garda, and there were almost 1,000 members of the Garda Reserve. These are significant figures and the Minister has fought hard at a Cabinet level to defend his Estimate and funding for both the Army and the Garda. He has been quite successful in doing so. As I mentioned earlier, we cannot forget the economic backdrop, as the State's finances are still in a state of peril, with no easy money available.

Many of my own colleagues, as well as those opposite, have expressed concern about station closures, which is a valid subject for debate, although the crude mechanism of a Private Members' motion is not the best way to address it. We can step back five or ten years, when there were more Garda stations in the country. At that time in this House, the Dáil and I presume at the justice committees on an almost weekly basis, Members on all sides spoke of community policing and the need to see more gardaí on the beat. As a result of the Minister's recent actions, there have been difficult decisions and the Minister practised what he preached. A Garda station has closed in his constituency. Nevertheless, he has allowed extra gardaí to leave the stations to go on the street. It is making a difference and if we want community policing, those policemen and policewomen must get on the streets rather than work behind a desk in a Garda station. We have often spoken about the level of administration and the number of gardaí behind a desk processing forms, stamping passport applications and doing other duties which could be done by a civilian. Our aspiration should be for every qualified garda to be available for duty on the street rather than working behind a desk.

It is understandable that there has been public concern about station closures but it is also interesting that once dialogue took place between local community representatives, gardaí and, in some cases, politicians in a neutral and balanced fashion, there was a genuine understanding that flexibility would result from the Minister's decision, which would make gardaí more available to citizens. We must aspire to that goal as having gardaí on the beat in communities is the best form of policing.

The Garda Reserve, which was pioneered by a previous Minister, former Deputy Michael McDowell, is beginning to have an impact and it is hoped that further resources and personnel can be provided for that project. I spoke to the Minister, Deputy Shatter, about it last week in seeking the numbers within the Garda Reserve who have applied to join the official force. There is a step-up facility-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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There is no recruitment whatever.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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With the most recent recruitment programme, a significant number of those inquiring about becoming full members of the Garda are currently seeking to serve the Garda Reserve. It is an interesting factor and the behaviour should be encouraged.

Deputy Shatter as Minister for Defence has also faced difficult decisions relating to closures.

Closures of Garda stations and Army barracks are neither easy nor popular, but being popular or taking easy decisions is not the business of Government. The Minister has maintained a solid number of Garda and Army personnel. This is the line from which we must work.

I invite the Opposition to propose constructive ideas. To my colleagues and friends across the way, I say that what we need is a debate, not a crude motion in which the Opposition states that it has no confidence in the Minister and we state that we do. A conversation on policing and the Garda would be helpful, but this type of motion does politics no great justice.

I express my satisfaction with the Minister's ability to secure the best possible funding package at the Cabinet table against the horrific financial backdrop that he has faced in recent years. I express my full confidence in his ability to use that money to the best of his ability. I acknowledge the fact that he is prepared to take tough decisions in a balanced and fair fashion. He does not concern himself with local politics or short-termism. He is taking the right action for this country and its security and safety.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, is always welcome to the House. He is someone for whom I have the utmost regard, but I want to know where the Minister, Deputy Shatter, is. It is disgraceful that he is not present to take this motion of no confidence in him. I listened to Senator Bradford's points with great interest. We did not table this motion lightly. We have not tabled such a motion often. I have debated justice issues with the Senator and the Minister as recently as a couple of weeks ago. I first raised the issue of the downgrading and closure of stations with the Minister nearly 18 months ago, at which point he gave me information that, to put it mildly, was not correct. It is outrageous that he cannot be bothered to be present today. This shows the disregard and arrogance that he displays towards the Garda Síochána, the Prison Service and the Defence Forces.

The situation with the Garda is unprecedented, in that practically every branch of the Garda Representative Association, GRA, and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, has voted no confidence in the Minister. He will not defend or stand up for them and he will not give them the resources that they require to fight crime. Senator Bradford's figures were wholly incorrect, in that crime levels, including the number of burglaries, are increasing.

I will read into the record a couple of facts concerning R division, which covers the Dublin north metropolitan area of Coolock, Swords and Malahide Garda stations. I raised the matter with the Minister and wrote to him about it, but I have not received a response. For 4.5 hours on 10 February, not a single Garda car was available for an area of nearly 200,000 people. On 14 February, when a woman was mugged at knifepoint in Clarehall, Coolock, the only available Garda vehicle was a two-seater van. The gardaí could not bring her home and needed to give her money out of their own pockets to put her on the bus back to Swords. This is the type of policing to which I am referring. Since the station in Rush, County Dublin, closed, there have been four armed robberies in the town and a serious arson attempt against the church.

The Minister does not have my confidence, that of the majority of people in this country or that of the Garda, prison officers and the Defence Forces. He was a different animal while in opposition, when he stated that there should have been no reduction in Garda services. I remind those opposite that it was previous Governments that increased the number of gardaí to 14,000, their highest ever. The Minister stated that any reduction in numbers would directly affect the fight against crime. I agreed with him. Now, however, he continues to cut Garda numbers, he has closed more than 100 stations and he has downgraded 35 more.

I will provide an example of what a downgrade means. The Minister lied to the people when he claimed that station downgrades and closures would lead to what he called "smart policing". There is nothing smart about the policing policy that he and his officials are following. When Malahide station closes at 9 p.m., for example, anyone who rings it is diverted to Coolock, the gardaí on the beat must take their orders from people in a station in Coolock 12 miles away, their prisoners cannot be detained and the only car in use is taken out of service for nearly two hours because prisoners must be transferred.

The Minister told me his belief that gardaí in stations were sitting around doing nothing. That is not true. He told me that they would now be out on the beat. Gardaí are left in stations because those buildings house firearms and evidence, yet most do not even have alarms. This is the case in Malahide. Consider the R division as an example of what the Minister means by "smart policing".

Of more concern is the fact that our citizens do not feel safe. When we discuss the matter with constituents or colleagues, not one of those people welcomes the closure of Garda stations. Even with the new announcement of additional cars, we are 350 cars down on the 2009 level. We are also 140 stations and nearly 2,000 gardaí down. Gardaí are doing their best every day of the week to try to fight crime and protect citizens without the support of the Minister. I do not say this lightly, but it is conclusion the conclusion I have reached.

The Minister is the wrong person for the job. He is not up to it. He has not even attended for a motion of no confidence to stand up for himself. This is the type of attitude that he has shown rank and file gardaí, prison officers and the Defence Forces. We know what the 24/7 Frontline Services Alliance and others on the front line are telling the Government. As individuals, we all respect the work that they do. Gardaí, firefighters and nurses put their lives on the line to keep us safe. The Government has applied an 8% cut to them in Croke Park II, yet it has only tinkered around the edges where people earning more than ¤100,000 are concerned. Fine Gael has done this.

Senator Bradford asked about where the money would come from to prevent the cuts. Perhaps the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, would not get a stroke of an extension to his hospital in Kilkenny. Perhaps the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, would not have Wexford hospital fast-tracked just because he sat at the Cabinet table with the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly. Perhaps the Minister, Deputy Reilly, would not decide to build whatever primary care centres he deemed politically expedient.

People want their front-line services, including their gardaí, supported. The Garda is not being supported by the Government, as has been shown day in, day out by what we read in newspapers and hear from constituents. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, is a disgrace, should step down and should be replaced. I do not table a no confidence motion in any Minister lightly, but I stand over such a motion in respect of the Minister, who is not even present to answer for himself.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I am not prepared, as someone else was due to lead, but I do not need notes to answer the motion or defend the Government's role. Instead of raising the issues Senator O'Brien did today or last week, he should have been considering them throughout the past decade.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I was not here ten years ago.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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There are two issues to this matter - pay rates for gardaí and rural stations.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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And urban.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Yes. If the Senator will not interrupt, I will continue. We cannot deny the statistics we have read on the proliferation of police stations compared with other modern economies. In the UK, excluding Scotland, for example, there are 1,600 police stations. We had almost 700 at one point, nearly half of the number in the UK, excluding Scotland, with its population of more than 55 million. Scotland, a similar country to Ireland in terms of its geography and urban-rural divide, has approximately 300 stations.

If we were setting up a police force from scratch, building stations in areas that are not used by the public would be the last thing we would discuss. In Donegal, for example, people have told me that many stations have been effectively closed anyway.

For the people who state that older people will be protected by an extra Garda station in an area, there are no statistics to back up that claim. I do not foresee an increase in crime in a year in places where Garda stations have closed. I could almost guarantee that. It is not about how many buildings a Garda force has in the country but rather it is about policing effectively.

There is a new, young Garda force in the country that is well educated, with many members having third level degrees. They have the qualifications and technical ability to operate on a different level to the Garda force that had existed. Some 60% of the gardaí now on duty have less than ten years experience, which is good. We should face the fact that over the years there have been many scandals involving gardaí, and a new breed of garda is now capable of bringing the force into the modern world. I would rather have young gardaí in my area who know what is happening on the street than gardaí 40 years on the beat who have learned their trade in a different time.

People have argued that smart policing does not live up to its name but it is more like modern policing, which is what is required in this country. Other countries have embraced such an idea. The Fianna Fáil Party does not want to change anything.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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It wants to change the Government.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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That is not a matter for Fianna Fáil and the people will decide.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Exactly.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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They certainly will.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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My father-in-law - God rest him - was a rural garda for many years and my wife was born in a Garda station, along with many of her brothers and sisters. The day is gone when a garda lived in a station, working for almost 24 hours a day, 365 days in the year. That was the way policing worked in this country but we have moved on. I stand to be corrected but I do not believe a garda lives in any station in the country. Some 25 or 30 years ago, most Garda stations had the garda and his family living on the premises. At the time it was the way forward as there were no personal telephones. People had to sign on for the dole in a Garda station but that practice is also gone. Passport documents and other forms can now be accessed on the Internet or in local post offices, and having a Garda station open 12 hours a day in this day and age is ridiculous. It is causing members of the Garda force to park their vehicles at a Garda station for several hours, precluding its use elsewhere.

We must move on and there must be a readjustment in this country. An old man spoke to me recently about the cuts and changes to the public service and aspects of private business. He told me we lived in the old world but we now have a new world and must move on in it. We must embrace that idea. There are Neanderthals in various parties who want to hang on to the past and tell people how great it used to be and everything was done much better. The past is a different country and it was populated by criminals as well. Although we still have criminals, statistics indicate that crime rates are decreasing overall. There may be increases in certain areas but these are mainly in fraud or computer hacking, and such crimes cannot be fought from a Garda station. The gardaí know that. I have spoken to many gardaí who tell me they would prefer to have an extra garda or car in the area than have a building maintained. The maintenance of a Garda station in a rural area does not add much.

There has been an argument that gardaí suffered discrimination in the negotiation of an extension to the Croke Park agreement, along with other front-line workers. The previous Government cut Garda pay twice without consultation, so at least this Government sat down with union representatives. The unions which stayed in the negotiations will put the agreement before their members and the unions which stayed out want to play it both ways. They are arguing that they are standing up for workers by not participating in the talks but if the agreement is approved, the same unions will want to be part of it.

No party should use the behaviour of gardaí in the Croke Park agreement negotiations as an argument, as such bodies working for the security of the State should not have an opinion of the Government. When a Garda authority argues that the Government is not doing something right, it is a dangerous day for everybody. It is very dangerous to mix politics and the security of the country and that day should be well gone. I ask Members on the other side to reflect on the work done by gardaí, many of whom have given a lifetime to maintaining security. Some help out in retirement by advising younger gardaí on policing. Such people play an integral role, which should be recognised.

When Fianna Fáil indicates it has no confidence in the Minister, it is a political point. Sinn Féin has already crossed a line in telling us one thing in Donegal and another in Tyrone. The party has called for every Garda station in Donegal to be maintained but in Tyrone, Derry and Fermanagh, it argues that all the stations must be closed because they are not being used. Fianna Fáil should not go down the same route, as it has more credibility. The rural Garda station issue is emotive but it would be no different if we set up a police force today. The former RIC stations were set up for a different type of country and a world populated by landlords and big landowners who used those stations to protect their land. We must modernise the police force in the country and although the way forward may not be easy at the start, in future there will be a better police force and improved security system. We will match countries like the UK and New Zealand, which is similar to Ireland in population and geography.

New Zealand uses community policing. Joint policing committees in this country must be developed and given more power. The proof of this Government's policy will be seen in two or three years, when we will see how crime levels are affected. I would rather know that a patrol car is circling the area routinely than have criminals know that a garda is in the local station from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m. When the cat is away, the mouse will play.

I commend the Leader and the Government parties for rebutting the motion from Fianna Fáil. It is a political argument. I know Fianna Fáil is organising a meeting tomorrow night in Letterkenny about the Garda issue but it did not have such meetings three or four years ago, when the party was part of the Government. It had no plans then except to cut Garda pay, reduce the number of stations and decrease the budget. The party should be honest with the people and tell us its solutions. It should not say it would do things differently as we know it would not. The party has been populist in the past but I ask it not to be populist with a sensitive issue like security.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit atá anseo, an Teachta Donncha Mac Fhionnlaoich as Dún na nGall. Mar adúirt cainteoirí eile, is mór an trua é nach bhfuil an tAire Dlí agus Cirt i láthair anseo tráthnóna. Níl a fhios agam cén fáth nach bhfuil sé i láthair. Is cosúil go bhfuil ionadaithe na gardaí ag iarraidh bualadh leis agus labhairt leis, ach níl sé ar fáil. Anois, nuair atá díospóireacht tábhachtach anseo sa Seanad agus na gardaí in ísle brí, níl sé le fáíl áit ar bith. Is droch rud i mo thuairim é sin.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, who does not have responsibility for the Department of Justice and Equality. It is a sad reflection on the Minister for Justice and Equality that he cannot be here to debate this Private Members' motion, which is very important. The motion merely replicates the lack of confidence in the Minister and the lack of morale in the Garda and Defence Forces.

The Garda, with the Army, is the country's most important defence mechanism, and gardaí should be supported in every way in the financing of the State. Members of the Garda Síochána are now working out of derelict buildings, in unsafe patrol cars and in extremely poor conditions. Their pay and allowances are being reduced. I have spoken to gardaí who have been driven to use the services of the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS. Others are availing of the services of a benevolent fund established within the Garda associations. Morale is at an all-time low, yet the Minister for Justice and Equality fails to come to the House to discuss this issue. It is a disgrace that the Minister is not here.

The Minister has spoken about smart policing but he has failed to tell anyone what he means by that, apart from press releases and soundbites about the use of Facebook and other new technology tools. Does the Minister believe smart policing revolves around Garda stations being open as clinics for two hours every day or every week to fill in forms? Should citizens send a text message to their garda if there is a crime issue in their community? That seems to be the smart policing he is talking about. He has not told anyone else what he means by it. Crime levels are increasing, which happens during every recession and not only during this one. Communities, particularly elderly people living alone, and there are many of them in rural Ireland, are living in fear because Garda services are being reduced. Gardaí in rural stations which are being reconfigurated do not have the additional money to purchase diesel, the cars are not up to scratch and there is a lack of those cars.

I have received anonymous correspondence from members of An Garda Síochána in my own county. Morale within the Garda is at breaking point, at a time when the State should be supporting gardaí. When the pensions of former Government officials, retired Secretaries General and former politicians and Ministers have been reduced somewhat, but not much, members of An Garda Síochána, under the Croke Park ll negotiations, are being asked to accept pay-cuts of 10.6%. This is in addition to the pay-cuts of 24% they have already accepted. A further pay-cut of 10.6% will force gardaí, many of whom took out mortgages during the boom, into a situation where they are simply unable to afford to stay in employment. Senators may have heard yesterday's radio interview with a garda who said he would be better off claiming social welfare than working for An Garda Síochána. What kind of reflection is that on our police force which has a statutory power to protect us, and particularly our elderly and vulnerable, when we need it?

Many recommendations were put forward by the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI and by the Garda Representative Association, GRA. They have fallen on deaf ears. Senator O'Brien referred to Garda cars. Approximately 250 cars were purchased recently, but one Garda car per day goes into an unsafe situation because it has more than 300,000 km on the clock. Those cars, one per day, must go out of circulation. This amounts to 365 cars in the last year which are being replaced by 250 cars. Perhaps everyone else is wrong and the Minister is right. The Minister may be able to add up differently from everyone else, but simple arithmetic shows that more cars are going out of circulation than are being replaced. There is a shortage of cars.

At its conference, the AGSI approved a very sensible motion. It proposed that instead of purchasing new cars, and having a capital outlay, the Garda should enter into a leasing plan, as the corporate or semi-state sectors do. If Garda stations are being closed and new Garda cars are not being provided, how can people living in rural areas be confident that they are being protected from criminality? They can not.

In County Donegal, stations along the Border are being closed. There are Garda stations in Buncrana and in Letterkenny. There are then 16 miles of a free-for-all Border where people are coming across from the North and breaking into houses. A post office near Burt was broken into last year by people who highjacked a taxi in Derry and came across the Border. There are no Border checks. If there is a lack of resources can there not be a joined-up approach to Border security by the Garda and the Army? We must protect our citizens from criminality.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Ba mhaith liom fíor fháilte a ghabháil don Aire Stáit, an Teachta Mac Fhionnlaoich. I am glad to have the opportunity to speak on this issue.

An Garda Síochána has played a central role in providing security and peace of mind for generations of people in this country. Our gardaí carry out a critical role in the social fabric of thousands of local communities across Ireland. The public and media response to the callous murder of Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe highlighted the deep bond that exists between the Irish people and the gardaí. I was struck by the enormous outpouring of grief and emotion of an entire nation of people who, genuinely and rightly, felt they had lost one of their own, a member of the wider community.

The Government's aim, in allocation Garda resources in these strenuous economic times, is twofold. It is to maximise the visible presence and effectiveness of the gardaí in our communities and to continue to make progress on reducing incidents of crime in urban and rural Ireland. The Government has taken a number of positive measures to ensure that these objectives can be met. With regard to crime rates, the 12 months to October 2012 showed reductions in 12 of the 14 crime groups. Instances of assault and related offences were down 9.5%. Public order offences had fallen by 12%. Drug offences were down 7%. Weapons and explosive offences were down 17.4%. Despite this progress, it is with regret that we have seen instances of burglary increase. This is the only area the Opposition was able to highlight.

I welcome the recent decision by the Minister for Justice and Equality to free up more gardaí from behind desks to ensure that community policing, along with the establishment of programmes such as Operation Fiacla, can go ahead. In the last nine months, Operation Fiacla has contributed to 4,000 people being arrested for burglary related crimes, over 2,000 of whom were later charged.

The closure of 100 Garda stations this year does not mean these communities will be deprived of adequate security or the presence of gardaí. Of these 100 stations, 94% were open for three hours a day or less, 88% were served by one garda and only 5% were manned by three gardaí or more personnel. The Government's commitment is to protecting our communities, and this is unwavering. That is why more than 1,000 gardaí are devoted to community policing.

The closure of these stations was recommended by the Garda Commissioner. Highlighting this fact is not an attempt to have the Commissioner carry the burden of negative coverage. The Garda Síochána is in the best position to make efficiencies and changes where it sees fit. The mission statement of the force is to protect and serve the law abiding public. That remains intact.

The Government is doing everything it can to help the Garda in this area and the 61,000 additional policing hours that will come on stream this year as a result of the freeing up of gardaí will be matched by the Government's support. For example, an allocation of ¤4 million in 2012 led to an increase of 212 in the number of Garda vehicles, an issue raised by previous speakers. An additional ¤5 million will be spent on such vehicles this year. Fianna Fáil's national recovery plan made no reference whatsoever to the purchase of one vehicle.

It is important to acknowledge in the context of Garda pay that the proposals to change working conditions for members are part of the overall reform of the public service and not an attempt to single them out or undermine the Trojan work they do, for which we all owe them a debt of gratitude. The drive for improved efficiencies in the public service is a goal we cannot afford to ignore. As the Government has said previously, it will not be found wanting in the provision of resources for the Garda to do its job. I cannot believe that Fianna Fáil would suggest anything other than that and to table a political motion of no confidence in the Minister for Justice and Equality typifies what the party was about when it was in office.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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He should go. He is a disgrace. He does not have the confidence of the Garda.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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When I think of phone tapping, the dismissal of Commissioners and interference in the day-to-day running of the Garda, I look at Fianna Fáil.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Where is the Minister today?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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The Leader, without interruption.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader can do that all he likes because things have moved on.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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Will Senator O'Brien please allow the Leader to speak?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I just want to know where the Minister for Justice and Equality is.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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The Leader might reply if the Senator gives him the opportunity.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil members were used to trying to prevent freedom of speech in the past and they are at it again even in this House. They tried to politicise the Garda on many occasions.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We respect gardaí, the Government does not.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I refer to the dismissal of Garda Commissioners, phone tapping and interference in the day-to-day running of the Garda. However, let us be crystal clear about Garda numbers. If Fianna Fáil was in government today, there would be less gardaí in the force than is the case. The party froze Garda recruitment.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Rubbish. We increased the strength of the force to 14,000, the highest it ever was.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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The Leader, without interruption.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, the Senator is unable to accept facts. He can only shout down speakers when they are outlining facts. That is always the way. Fine Gael and the Labour Party are aware of the extraordinary value of the Garda and that is why the Government has secured additional funding. As I stated on the Order of Business only a few weeks ago, Fianna Fáil had provided ¤90 million less for the force annually in its national recovery plan for 2012, 2013 and 2014. Its members should be ashamed of themselves. I thought they would come into the House and explain this. They are unable to answer questions on this.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Did the Leader see our alternative budget? We would not close Garda stations.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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The Leader, without interruption.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I will conclude on that, despite the fact that half my contribution was interrupted, but I will obey the Chair as I have always done and I will not interrupt anyone else.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I ask Senators to obey the Chair.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to know where the Minister of Justice and Equality is. The Leader is the only one who knows.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I asked Senator O'Brien to allow Senator Cummins to speak and he would not.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Tá céad fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Táimid ag plé rúin atá iontach tábhachtach agus dáiríre. Is é an trua go bhfuilimid gafa i muinín na geamaireachta anseo inniu idir an Rialtas agus an Fhreasúra, idir Fhianna Fáil agus Fine Gael, ar an gceist seo mar is ceist iontach dáiríre í.

We support the motion of no confidence in the Minister for Justice and Equality. I agree with the sentiment expressed but I am a tad bemused by Fianna Fáil's approach. This party is, I understand, attempting to rebrand itself as the party of responsible opposition as it is so fond of telling us. If only it had been more responsible when it was in government. This is the responsible party that signed up to a property tax while in government in the programme for national recovery but opposes it in opposition; the responsible party, which signed up for water charges in the same programme but now opposes them in opposition; the responsible party, which created a mess through its failure to act on European directives on ground water and made hay by opposing septic tank charges; and the responsible party, which having closed many Garda stations, cut Garda numbers and closed Army barracks, has tabled a motion of no confidence in the Minister.

There was a commitment in the 2010 national recovery plan agreed between the Fianna Fáil-Green Party coalition and the troika to cut Garda numbers from 14,500 that year to 13,500 the following year and to 13,000 in 2014, a total reduction of 10%. There were also to be substantial reductions in closing times and closures of Garda stations in that time. By November 2008, almost half of all the Garda stations in counties Cork, Kerry, Clare, Galway and Roscommon had been reduced to one garda operating on a part-time basis. In many of those cases, Garda stations were closed on Sundays and opening hours during the week were limited to between 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. We are quite used to generations of Fianna Fáil brass neck but it is a novelty to have it described as "responsible opposition".

We do not have confidence in the Minister for Justice and Equality. His entire approach to community safety and his lack of concern for rural communities, in particular, and many disadvantaged urban communities, have led us to the conclusion that he is not fulfilling his obligations in an appropriate manner. We have had numerous debates on this matter in recent weeks and there are many respects in which the Government's cuts agenda has been damaging. Some 100 Garda stations closed on 31 January, which is damaging. It is strange that the lack of crime in an area is not being used as a measure of success but is being turned on its head and being used against the area. Surely if a garda is doing his or her job properly, there will be less crime in the area and that should be the measure used. The local Garda station is at the heart of the community and is key to community infrastructure. This will also have a huge effect on people's sense of security and safety, particularly in rural communities.

This is also damaging to Garda morale. Gardaí are among those front-line workers who are being hammered by this new public sector pay agreement. The agreement has not protected low and middle-income earners. Gardaí face hugely increased workloads and increased stress due to under-staffing and under-resourcing but their reward is reductions in pay and allowances. They will struggle with mortgages, groceries and bills. Shame on the Government that is doing this to key front-line workers.

However, the closure of Garda stations is, most of all, damaging to community safety. The Garda will not have the resources to cope. There is an obvious value to the local gardaí and rural Garda stations in the prevention of crime. There is increasing evidence that station closures can lead to an increase in crime. In England, where rural services have experienced similar cutbacks in police services, crime figures have surged. We have experienced an increase in burglaries, which is particularly alarming in rural communities. Violent crime increased by 119% in country areas between 1988 and 1989 and 2006 and 2007 compared with a national increase of 108% that year. Gardaí do not have adequate tools to carry out their job. They need secure digital radio, satellite navigation systems, Internet and e-mail access and suitable transportation. As I recently highlighted in this House, the cars available to gardaí, where they have access to them, mean that they are not as mobile as they should be. The Government is not interested in assuaging concerns of these communities.

I refer to the issue of closure of Army barracks. The Minister has failed to produce evidence that there is an economic gain from closing barracks such as those in Cavan and elsewhere in considering the costs of paying additional travel allowances to approximately 600 people for many months, the substantial capital investments that will be needed in other barracks to accommodate those who are dislocated or the substantial security and maintenance bill for the closed sites, nor is it likely that these sites can be sold for much. The closure of the barracks has done huge damage to these communities. The loss to the local community and economy will take years to recover from. Shutting these barracks is not the answer.

Whether the issue is Garda stations or Army barracks, the Government would have us believe that we have do not have a choice and this is the approach that must be taken and there are troika diktats but that is untrue. The Government is free to adjust the terms of the bailout agreement on condition that the final outcome remains the fiscal adjustment to which the agreement commits Ireland.

We believe that the Government has taken the wrong fiscal approach and that there needs to be a greater spreading of the burden of cuts. The Minister has gone along enthusiastically with the Government cuts agenda and has shown little regard for the community in that context and, therefore, we have no choice but to support the motion of no confidence.

I wish to mention the issue of direct provision which I have mentioned on many occasions in the House. In opposition the Minister promised to review and dismantle the system of direct provision because it is an inhuman and degrading way of dealing with asylum seekers. That points to another failure by the Minister. Níl aon mhuinín againn as an Aire seo ná as na rudaí atá déanta aige mar gheall ar na ceisteanna atá ardaithe anseo. Beimid ag tacú leis an rún, in ainneoin go bhfuil sé de mhuinéal ag Fianna Fáil rún dá leithéid a chur chun cinn.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Dinny McGinley, to reply.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, is unavailable. I welcome the opportunity to come before the House to defend his record and that of the Government-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, will the Minister of State please inform the House where the Minster is?

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the Minister is gainfully employed on many other duties.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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On a point order, I am entitled to know where the Minister is.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Will the Senator please resume his seat?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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With all due respect, the Leader and the Minister of State will know-----

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Will the Senator please resume his seat?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I will submit a freedom of information request to find out what was in the Minister's diary for today and how he could not find two hours to come to the House.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Will the Senator please resume his seat? I invite the Minister of State to continue.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I am disappointed by the fact that the Fianna Fáil Senators have tabled the motion. In the first place the motion is, to a large extent, a re-run of a recent and similar attempt to attack the way in which the Minister and the Government are handling difficult and complex issues within his ministerial brief. As that attempt, in the form of another proposed motion, was overwhelmingly rejected by the House two weeks ago, I do not see what real purpose can be served by seeking to cover pretty much the same ground so soon again. Quite frankly, the Fianna Fáil Senators could have found a more meaningful and appropriate use for their Private Members' time, but that is the decision they have made.

Just as importantly, there is no substance to the issues that have been raised in the motion, and what the Fianna Fáil Senators have sought to do is merely to string together a set of topics on which they hope to garner some publicity. Such an approach is ill-advised and it is designed simply to undermine the excellent work being undertaken by the Government in the relevant areas. Also, but not surprisingly, the motion does not take account of the reality of the very difficult economic conditions facing the country. In that context, it is easy to understand why the Senators who have tabled the motion would wish to ignore our current and extremely harsh financial situation, especially when it is due in large measure to failures on the part of the last Fianna Fáil-led Government.

As the bulk of the specific matters referred to in the Private Members' motion relate to the Minister's functions as Minister for Justice and Equality, I will deal with them first. I will then address the relevant issues falling within his remit as Minister for Defence.

The legacy Fianna Fáil was happy to bequeath to the Minister for Justice and Equality a series of expenditure ceilings for the justice sector which, if applied, would have resulted in devastating cuts in Garda services which he, as Minister for Justice and Equality, would not and could not stand over. The Fianna Fáil national recovery plan was unacceptable and would certainly have put the Garda Commissioner in an impossible position. Fortunately, the Minister was able to secure additional funding over the three year period, 2012 to 2014, to ensure the Garda Commissioner and An Garda Síochána could continue to deliver an effective policing service.

In summary, for the justice sector in 2012, the Minister secured ¤2.243 billion, which was an additional ¤118 million over and above the Fianna Fáil allocation of ¤2.125 billion. For 2013, he secured funding of ¤2.2 billion which was ¤191 million over and above the Fianna Fáil allocation of ¤2.009 billion, and for 2014, he secured funding of ¤2.065 billion which was ¤105 million over and above the original Fianna Fáil allocation of ¤1.96 billion. With the Fianna Fáil national recovery plan, the Garda Commissioner and An Garda Síochána would have had an average of ¤90 million less each year for 2012, 2013, and 2014.

The Minister also made additional funding available last year and in 2013 for the purchase of transport for the Garda fleet for which no provision of any nature was made in 2009. In that context, 213 new Garda vehicles were purchased in 2012, and the dedicated funding of ¤5 million in 2013 will allow for the purchase of a significant number of new vehicles this year.

Recruitment to An Garda Síochána was ended by the Minister's predecessor, Dermot Ahern. The most recent recruits to enter Templemore did so in 2009 and the last substantial number of recruits graduated in June 2011. The last Government planned to reduce Garda numbers to 13,000 by 31 December 2014. The Minister is reviewing the position regarding Garda numbers in light of an estimated reduction to just over 13,000 by the end of 2013, and in this context he will bring proposals to Cabinet in the coming weeks. He does not want Garda numbers to fall below 13,000.

I wish to mention the discussions which have concluded recently on a revision to the Croke Park agreement. Everyone who is involved in this process has recognised the perilous state in which Fianna Fáil left the finances. It is only through the combined efforts of all parties who engaged in these discussions that we will begin to restore our fiscal sovereignty.

The Minister, Deputy Shatter, did not choose the appalling financial position in which he has had to operate as Minister for Justice and Equality. However, he done everything possible to maintain at the highest possible level the resources available to An Garda Síochána. There is a budget of more ¤1.4 billion available for the force in 2013 and, by any standards, this is a substantial amount. The Minister is pleased that the provision of three new Garda divisional headquarters for Kevin Street in Dublin, Galway and Wexford was included in the special Government stimulus package announced last July.

I wish to address the question of the closure of some Garda stations, which is referred to in the Fianna Fáil motion. Some 39 Garda Stations were closed in 2012. Eight of these had not been opened for a number of years and many only for a short period during each day. The same party which is proposing a motion of no confidence in the Minister for agreeing to close these stations formally presided over their continued existence on paper only in another attempt to fool the people. The closure of these stations simply recognised a reality concealed by the Minister's immediate predecessors. Following a comprehensive assessment by the Garda Commissioner of the Garda station network, a further 100 were listed for closure in the Commissioner's policing plan for 2013, 95 of which closed on 31 January 2013 and the remainder of which will close in the coming months.

The Garda station network was inherited from the Royal Irish Constabulary in 1922 on the foundation of the State. Such a large-scale static deployment of resources is no longer appropriate in the present day where the transport and communications infrastructure has been transformed beyond recognition. The Garda Síochána has a class-leading police computer system, a state-of-the-art digital radio system and a transport fleet which is currently receiving significant investment.

Of the 100 stations on the list for closure, 98% opened part-time, 94% opened for three hours per day or less, 88% were manned by one Garda and only 5% manned by three or more Garda personnel. By way of comparison, there are 83 police stations in Northern Ireland for its population of 1.4 million and 340 stations in Scotland for its population of 5.2 million.

In the London metropolitan area, 66 police stations are due to close, leaving 73 police stations open to the public. These figures speak for themselves.

It is the Garda Commissioner's professional opinion, following a comprehensive national assessment carried out over a period of 12 months, that a country the size of Ireland with a population of 4.5 million does not, in the 21st century, need 700 Garda stations. It is nothing less than scaremongering to suggest that reducing the network to 564 Garda stations is a cause for fear and anxiety. It would be entirely wrong for the Minister for Justice and Equality to second guess the commissioner's judgment and expertise in this matter.

It is unfortunate and regrettable that some public representatives, particularly in the ranks of Fianna Fáil, have been fuelling public fear regarding the impact of the closure of Garda stations. In fact, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has been advised by the Garda Commissioner that Garda station closures in 2013 will result in an extra 61,000 Garda patrol hours. Are the detractors seriously telling the public it is preferable to have gardaí sitting behind desks in stations than being on patrol?

Some have sought to paint the Garda station consolidation process as an attack on rural Ireland. However, the two largest stations listed for closure in 2013 are Stepaside in the Minister's constituency of Dublin South and Kill o' the Grange in the Tánaiste's constituency of Dún Laoghaire. In 2012 the three largest Garda stations to be closed were Harcourt Terrace, Whitehall and Dalkey, all of which were also in Dublin. Garda stations come under the control of the Office of Public Works and the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, has confirmed that if an appropriate community management structure is put in place, the closed stations can be utilised for local community purposes.

The Commissioner, Mr. Martin Callinan, has stated the revised structures will continue to support the Garda community philosophy through the clustering of services at policing hubs. This centralisation of services will facilitate the introduction of enhanced patrolling arrangements which, in turn, will provide increased Garda visibility as well as maintaining existing Garda links with communities throughout the country. In addition, An Garda Síochána recently acquired a number of vehicles which are being converted into mobile Garda offices and it is planned to assign them to areas where Garda stations have been closed to ensure members of the public can continue to conduct their business and interact with members of An Garda Síochána.

All gardaí have a part to play in community policing and more than 1,000 gardaí are dedicated to community policing throughout the country. Gardaí continue to work closely with all communities to enhance community safety through a wide range of local fora such as Community Alert and Neighbourhood Watch. The Department, along with the HSE, has for many years supported the work of the Community Alert programme, which was established in 1985 by Muintir na Tíre in association with the Garda authorities. The programme has 1,300 local groups. The close involvement of gardaí with the Community Alert programme was further underlined in January this year by the signing of an updated memorandum of understanding between An Garda Síochána and Muintir na Tíre which administers the programme. Furthermore, a new Garda community crime prevention programme booklet has been published to support the establishment and operation of Community Alert, Neighbourhood Watch and similar local crime prevention initiatives.

An Garda Síochána has risen to the challenges it faces in the current economic climate. Change is being delivered in co-operation with the members and staff of the Garda Síochána. Without doubt, the single biggest transformation project in the Garda Síochána, and arguably in the public service, has been the development and implementation in 2012 of a new roster system in the force. Not only does the new roster provide a more effective policing service, it also protects the health and welfare of the members of the Garda Síochána. The new Garda roster system ensures that resources are optimally deployed when and where they are required, to every part of the community, rural and urban. Evidence of the new roster is immediately apparent on our streets as more gardaí are on duty at times of peak demand and fewer during quieter periods. This is essentially what this reform is about - doing things differently but doing them more effectively.

In response to allegations about increased crime levels throughout the country, the most recent available crime statistics, published by the Central Statistics Office for the 12 months ending on 30 September 2012, show reductions in 12 of the 14 crime groups. There have been reductions in the numbers of crimes against the person including homicide offences, sexual offences and assault and related offences. Public order and damage to property offences have also decreased, as have drugs offences and weapons and explosives offences. Details of all these reductions have already been reported to the House. Burglaries, however, increased by 7.9% during the period.

Operation Fiacla was set up by the Garda Commissioner and is particularly focused on identifying and targeting mobile gangs involved in burglaries around the country, and is extremely effective. In the period to the end of January 2013 it resulted in 3,903 persons being arrested and 2,142 persons being charged. In addition, the latest quarterly figures for burglary suggest that Operation Fiacla is having an impact when compared with the quarterly figures prior to its introduction. These figures, taken with the robust response of the Garda in tackling gangland crime and the activities of paramilitary organisations, are clear evidence that while the Garda cannot avoid the economic realities, it has been more than able to continue to respond effectively to crime. The most recent crime figures show that the number of aggravated burglaries is down when compared with the previous 12 months.

Everybody shares the widespread outrage at gang-related criminal activity. The Minister is in ongoing contact with the Garda Commissioner about all aspects of serious crime and the Garda will continue to bear down heavily on the activities of those involved in gangland crime. The only effective way to combat organised crime is by disrupting and prosecuting those involved in its operations, particularly the drugs trade which is at the heart of much of its profits. We should not underestimate the difficulties the Garda faces in trying to prevent gangland killings and related crimes and in bringing the perpetrators to justice. These crimes are carefully planned and are carried out by people who are very familiar with criminal and forensic investigation techniques. Moreover, despite the clear risk to themselves, members of gangs will not generally co-operate with Garda investigations. Despite these difficulties the Garda has been able to bring people before the courts, particularly with regard to a number of high-profile killings in recent years, although it will be some time before these cases are disposed of.

This is not a budgetary matter. The Commissioner has made it clear that where resources are needed to combat serious and organised crime they will be made available. The number of gangland murders was, in fact, higher when Garda numbers were higher than they are now. Very strong anti-gangland legislation is already in place. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, has made it clear that if the Garda Commissioner feels other measures might be taken in this area he will look at them very positively.

Despite the many positive developments in Northern Ireland in recent years, the Garda has never relented in its efforts to counteract criminal groups whose only objective is to drag our island back to a dark past. The shared objective of the Government and the authorities in Northern Ireland is to enhance community safety on the whole of this island. The Minister has asked me to assure the House that we will continue, in co-operation with the authorities in Northern Ireland, to spare no effort to ensure criminal terrorists who seek to subvert the democratic will of the people will face the full rigours of the law.

The prison system also features in the Fianna Fáil motion. This is an area in which the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has adopted a very proactive approach since becoming Minister for Justice and Equality, and significant progress has already been made in this relatively short period. As Senators are aware, the system faces many challenges, including pressure of numbers and the fact that many of the prisons are very old. While these challenges are significant, the Minister will continue to ensure they are addressed as effectively as possible.

The largest single allocation of the capital allocation to the justice sector for 2012 was provided by the Minister, Deputy Shatter, to fund the Irish Prison Service building programme.

This significant capital investment underlines the Government's commitment to addressing the twin problems of overcrowding and physical conditions within the prison estate. Refurbishment, including the provision of in-cell sanitation, continues in Mountjoy Prison and approval has been granted to the Prison Service to proceed with the project to replace Cork Prison. The drafting of detailed plans for the replacement of two outdated wings in Limerick Prison has also been approved. A new unit opened in December 2012 in the Dóchas Centre which provides an additional 20 spaces. A new accommodation block at the Midlands Prison became operational in late 2012 providing a potential 300 additional spaces as well as additional work training and educational facilities.

The Minister has also actively pursued alternatives to custody. In that context he has established a working group to conduct a strategic review of penal policy. The group, which has a very wide remit, has been asked to examine the role of penal policy in crime prevention, sentencing policies, alternatives to custody, custodial accommodation and regimes, reintegration and rehabilitation, and any special issues relating to female offenders and prisoners.

Finally, the Minister is very much aware that the Prison Service has actively engaged with the staff associations as part of the Public Service Agreement 2010-14. As part of a joint task review process, management and staff representatives within the Prison Service are working effectively together to implement the provisions of the public service agreement. That ongoing process is addressing every aspect of the operation of the prison system and has resulted in the implementation of new daily task lists, new staff rosters and new staff configurations in seven establishments in 2012. In addition, another four prison development reports have been agreed and will be implemented next month. Reports for the remaining four prisons are at an advanced stage of completion.

Co-operation between management and staff within the Prison Service is at a high level during this challenging period. This has been achieved through a clear focus on communications facilitated through bilateral engagement with the staff associations and the support of the prisons sector group of the implementation body. In addition, Senators may be aware that specific measures relating to prison staff were incorporated in the proposals for the revision of the Croke Park public service agreement which have recently been circulated by the Labour Relations Commission.

I will briefly deal with the element of the motion which is concerned with Minister Shatter's role as Minister for Defence. In that regard, his primary objective in progressing the initiatives that have been taken has been to focus on maintaining the operational capability of the Defence Forces to fulfil all of the roles assigned by Government. The consolidation of the barrack infrastructure has been a long-term policy in this respect. Moreover, the re-organisation of the Permanent Defence Force has succeeded in freeing up personnel for operational duties and improved the overall effectiveness of the force. Reports and studies dated back to 1990 identified barrack closures as a fundamental requirement towards improving military effectiveness and efficiency. A total of 14 barracks have been closed by successive Governments over the past 14 years.

The total realised to date in terms of sales of surplus property is approximately ¤85 million. This, together with income of ¤18 million approximately from the sale of other smaller military properties and married quarters, has been reinvested in a number of areas including the provision of accommodation, training facilities, the equipment modernisation programmes which involved major acquisitions, including light tactical armoured vehicles, personnel carriers, eight helicopters, and two new offshore patrol vessels.

The Minister is committed to maintaining the capacity of the Defence Forces. He is satisfied that the Defence Forces are currently fully capable of meeting those tasks assigned to it.

Members of the Garda Síochána provide a vital service to the public and deserve the support of the public. A safe society is the responsibility of every member of that society, not just of the gardaí. The interconnection between the Garda and community is a vital one in the successful delivery of a policing service in Ireland. The Government will not shirk its responsibility to do everything that it can to ensure that the connection is not broken and that the best possible resources are made available to the Garda Síochána.

Similarly, the Government will continue to pursue the development and improvement of the prison system. That project has been a major priority for the Minister during his time as Minister for Justice and Equality. That will continue to be the case. In addition, he has worked hard to ensure that the Defence Forces will be fully capable of fulfilling their important tasks. He is satisfied that this is the position and that it will be maintained. As I have demonstrated very clearly, the Fianna Fáil motion is completely without substance and, accordingly, I commend the amendment I have proposed to the House.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O'Neil):

I thank the Minister of State. I call Senator MacSharry and he has six minutes.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House. He is always welcome but we and many other Senators would have preferred if the Minister had chosen to attend.

My party has submitted a freedom of information request on the Minister's diary for today to find out where he went this afternoon. If he attended a European meeting then it would not be such a secret. It is unfortunate that he could not come here to defend the motion. The Minister of State read the reply very well but we heard something similar a few weeks ago.

In February 2011 the people judged the performance of the previous Government, which is two years ago, and my party lost 53 seats and whatever number of Senators. As Mary O'Rourke, the distinguished former Leader of the House, has often said, that was then and this is now. Every time that a point needs to be made on behalf of the people, and it relates to an action that is taken today, it will be perfectly legitimate and credible for people on this side of the House to take that step and to say it.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Apologise.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator MacSharry please, without interruption.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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It is important that we can make necessary points and my party will do so.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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It is the opposite side who will be apologetic at the next polls.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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When the Minister was here on the last occasion he read the same speech as the Minister of State.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Only not as well.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, not as well as Deputy McGinley.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Order, please. I ask Senators not to draw fire.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Is there a problem?

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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No. I just advised that Senators should not draw fire.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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The Acting Chairman should direct his comment at his own people. People on the other side of the House want to live in the past and constantly describe the original document, by the outgoing Fianna Fáil Government, as their manifesto, which was the recovery document. The Minister of State spoke about it for ten minutes. It would prove useful, if we want to examine the past, to examine the Government's manifesto which is a very different document.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Fianna Fáil was in government.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Let us examine chapter 6.4 on page 28 of the manifesto document which states: "Fine Gael will put an increased emphasis on Community Gardaí and encourage members to live in the communities they serve." In the same paragraph, it outlined how it would end wasting the time that law enforcement officers spend checking passports at airports or doing administrative duties in Garda stations so that more could be made available to police in communities. Of course none of that happened which is consistent with the entire manifesto.

On the day that the manifesto was launched I said to the Minister that it was probably the greatest act of political delinquency since the foundation of the State for the blatant lies poured on the people. It was done very cynically, particularly in the north west, which the Minister of State should know about, in the form of the lies told about cancer services at Sligo General Hospital, accident and emergency services at Roscommon hospital and so on. The Government made those promises long before chapter 6.4 was published. It is hardly surprising that the commitment given about policing was another lie perpetrated on the people.

The Minister of State was sent here to take a bullet - for want of a better expression - for the Minister because he did not have the manners or courage to come here himself. My party has lodged a FOI request for a copy of his diary in order to discover where he chose to go rather than come here to read the same speech that was read so well by the Minister of State today. What will happen when the people of Glencolmcille, Annagry or Dunkineely go to the Minister of State's constituency office to ask him what is the situation with paragraph 6.4 on page 28 of the Fine Gael manifesto that spoke about enhanced community policing in their areas? What will he say to them? Will he say that the Fianna Fáil party blew the boom and blame it for everything?

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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When people from communities such as Annagry and Dunkineely come to the constituency office of the Minister of State and ask him about paragraph 6.4 on page 28 of the Fine Gael manifesto dealing with enhanced community policing, will his response be that the Fianna Fáil Party blew the boom and it is all its fault? That is the reason for the drop in the polls. People are sick of that one-liner.

We lost 53 seats at the last election, but the Fine Gael Party in government is now being judged on its actions, given the commitments it made. Senator Susan O'Keeffe who was referring to the bad memory of those in Fianna Fáil was thrown off course when we asked her about Sligo hospital. There are many similar instances

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Lies.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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He is stating the facts.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Sadly, the Minister for Justice and Equality is not present.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has one minute remaining. Please do not interrupt the Senator

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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In essence we have more aggravated burglaries than we ever had in the history of the State. In that large area from Ballina in north Mayo to Ballisodare in Sligo, there are eight gardaí, one car and one sergeant. That sounds very good but at any one time there are two gardaí on duty. There are aggravated burglaries and in one instance, a man left his wife in the house while he went to mass, a distance of no more than 100 metres, and on his return 40 minutes later he found his wife tied up.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator's time is up.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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When Senator O'Neill was in the Chair he was not too concerned about a few seconds.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Chair indulge me for 30 seconds? Aggravated burglaries are happening all over the country.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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There are five more speakers.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Even if they were planning to replace people----

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator's time is up.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister spent 40 minutes reading out a speech we heard weeks ago.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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With respect, Senator, your time is up.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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It is an important point to make. The reality is that we are not getting increased numbers of gardaí on the ground. We have fewer members of the force on the ground.

From the people whom I know in the Garda Síochána, morale is at an all-time low. We have heard the story of the detective unit in Cavan, in which the six detectives have no car between them. In Sligo, there is one car to be shared among the eight detectives. Other Senators made the point about the lack of resources. Of course, the top brass are being wheeled out to say all is well and that we are winning the battle. We are losing the battle.

As Deputy McGinley was sent in to deal with the motion, I will return to the areas in his constituency, Dunkineely and Churchill, to Annagry to Glencolmcille. Will he say to those people, "What's the problem? The Garda station in Stepaside in the constituency of the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, had to close." Stepaside is no more than six or seven minutes away from the Garda station in Donnybrook----

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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With respect, the Senator should finish.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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----or in Dalkey. One is not comparing like with like. When the Minister of State goes out to Carrick or Glencolmcille looking for votes let him tell the people that No. 6.4 in the Fine Gael manifesto is a fabrication and a lie.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I cannot indulge this argy-bargy across the Chamber.

Senator Bacik has six minutes.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I will not take that time as I am conscious that others wish to speak. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley. I am happy to join with my colleagues on this side to rebut the Fianna Fáil motion, which as others have said, is inappropriate and a repetition of what has been set out very recently.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We will keep doing it.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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It is a waste of Private Members' time. That is a matter for them.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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When did Senator Bacik last have a Labour Party motion on Private Members' time?

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Our motion touched on this very issue but it brought in a range of other issues around community life, including the Purple Flag.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator knows that.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Senator Harte, as did other Senators, set out a very strong defence of Government policy on justice. Senator Bradford, very helpfully, pointed out that the attitude of the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, to the Seanad has been extremely positive. He has initiated a large number of Bills in this Chamber, probably more than most other Ministers. Let me say that his record on penal reform and on prison policy has been strong. The Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, gave us information on the investment in prisons. As a member of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, I visited Mountjoy Prison recently and have seen the roll out of in-cell sanitation, the installation of new shower blocks and the great improvement in prison conditions for prisoners and staff. There is a new reception area for prisoners who are coming into prison. Some very important innovations have been undertaken by the Minister. In addition, he has established a working group on penal policy which I know will come up with really useful reforms of prison policy. I know the committee report on penal reform will feed into it. The Minister for Justice and Equality is genuinely reforming the system, particularly in penal reform, an issue which is close to me.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Army and the Garda.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I will now deal with the issue of the Garda which the Opposition has been focusing on. The figures provided by the Minister of State speak for themselves. It is scaremongering to suggest that reducing the Garda network to 564 stations is a cause for fear and anxiety. The figures for Northern Ireland, Scotland and elsewhere show that it is unnecessary to have the number of Garda stations we have. To suggest that Ireland needs 700 Garda stations----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Tell that to the people of Rush.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I would ask the Opposition to look at the actual number of crimes reported each year in some of the Garda stations----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I have the report.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Tell the lady who was tied up in her house----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Millionaires row, which the Senator represents.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senators must address their remarks through the Chair.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Some of the stations have not been opened for a number of years and some only for a short period. Clearly to free up Garda time and to allow for an extra 61,000 Garda patrol hours is a better and more efficient use of policing time. It is worth reminding the Opposition of advances in technology and policing practice that will allow for more efficient use of policing rather than have gardaí sitting behind a desk in stations that deal with a tiny number of reports every day. That is an issue of major importance that is worth speaking on.

My colleagues have spoken on the reduction in crime figures and the success of Operation Fiacla in tackling the area of serious crime. Members are concerned about increases in serious crime.

The previous Government in a time of plenty does not have the same record on penal and justice reform that this Minister does, and I commend him for it.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Wilson has six minutes.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, to the House. He is a man for whom I have great respect. I thank him for his major contribution. As Senator MacSharry has said he has been thrown in at the deep end to come in to defend the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter. I apologise that this has happened to an honourable and decent man.

The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, has form in this regard. A little more than 12 months ago, I tabled a Private Members' motion on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party on the closure of Army barracks. On that occasion, the Minister did not pay us the courtesy of attending and sent the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe. I am glad he has learned from that experience and he did not turn up on this occasion either. I do not think it is acceptable that the Minister is not present to hear the views of the Opposition. I know he is in the House because he has been spotted by a colleague of mine, a little more than an hour ago. It is not acceptable that he is not here himself to take this motion.

At a time of rising numbers of burglaries, drug smuggling and serious dissident activity, the Government is going way beyond the EU-IMF agreement in slashing Garda numbers to the lowest level in over a decade and closing Garda stations. My colleagues have outlined the reasons this is not a good idea and I do not intend to repeat them. Morale in the Garda Síochána is at an all-time low. Not only are the Garda representative associations in open conflict with the Minister's handling of Garda pay and conditions, but ordinary members of the force throughout the length of the country are struggling not only to survive but to do their job because they have not got the resources they need to do it. As my colleague, Senator MacSharry, said, there are six detectives in Cavan town. For a period of three months they had no unmarked car. I raised the issue in this House and a couple of days ago they were given a car with less than 20,000 miles left on the clock.

Does the Minister of State think that is acceptable? The Garda Síochána in County Cavan does not have the number of marked cars required to carry out its duties to the full extent. Garda superintendents are faced with having to put together 12-hour rosters in order to police large areas. In addition, Garda chief superintendents and superintendents are faced with an amalgamation of Garda districts, to which Senator Thomas Byrne alluded, without an increase in numbers to carry out such duties.

As Senator MacSharry said, one of the major commitments in both the Fine Gael and Labour Party manifestos was to community policing with gardaí living in the local community. Tell that to communities that now see their Garda stations being closed. Tell that to gardaí and their families who have to move up to 30 miles in some cases due to the amalgamation of Garda districts. This situation is unacceptable. Ordinary gardaí are at breaking point. I want to pay tribute to each and every member of the Garda Síochána of all ranks for the excellent work they are doing in protecting our communities in such difficult circumstances.

The Minister, Deputy Shatter, also holds the Defence portfolio. What a disgrace he has been as Minister for Defence. It is a disgrace to hide behind the financial situation as an excuse for closing Army barracks, such as Dún Uí Néill in Cavan town. In his earlier contribution, the Minister of State alluded to the fact that ¤85 million has been raised to date by the sale of that property. How much of that sum, however, has come from other Government Departments and State agencies? The vast majority of that money has come from other Departments. What saving is there in the three-card trick of the Department of Defence selling Dún Uí Néill to the Department of Education and Skills? At the same time, the soldiers who were based there are being paid to go to other barracks. What security is there in soldiers from Dún Uí Néill being moved to Athlone, while dissident activity is increasing just seven miles from where they were originally based? If there is a crisis it will take over two hours for Army personnel to get to the Border. That is the reality, but is it progress or smart defence? What an insult it is to the Garda Síochána to say that we are going to implement better and smarter policing. What does that tell the members of An Garda Síochána who have served the State over the decades?

The Minister, Deputy Shatter, should resign not just for the reasons that I and my colleagues have outlined, but also because there is a constitutional conflict in his holding both the Justice and Defence portfolios. There are only two Ministers in Government who are charged with the responsibility of signing bugging orders. Senator Cummins quite arrogantly mentioned bugging in the past.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has exceeded his time.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with him, however. It is a major difficulty.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I do not like having to interrupt the Senator.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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If we have the same Minister being the only one who can sign bugging orders, I think that is a danger to the security of the State. Two different people should occupy those Ministries. For that reason alone, apart from the other myriad reasons, I believe the Minister, Deputy Shatter, should resign.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Michael D'Arcy is next but there are three speakers remaining. I will have to call on Senator Byrne in a few minutes. What does Senator D'Arcy wish to do?

Michael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I will be as brief as possible.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Could the Acting Chairman extend the time by five minutes?

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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No, I cannot do that.

Michael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I will be as brief as I can.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of clarification, at what time is Senator Byrne being called to wrap up?

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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At 5.26 p.m.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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That is in one minute.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Yes, there is only a minute or two in it. Will I give the Senators a minute each?

Michael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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No. I will say what I have to say very quickly. There is a certain discourtesy from other speakers. We all have our time slot but some people exceed it. Senator MacSharry was the worst example today. He took up everyone else's time, as others did.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should not cast blame on anyone.

Michael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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He did, so I am making the point. I disagree with the Minister for Justice and Equality on the 2013 policing plan that was commissioned by the Garda Commissioner. Certain aspects of the plan should be scrutinised and analysed. The Minister will not second-guess it. In my opinion, however, if there is an aspect of the policing plan that is incorrect - perhaps based on incorrect information or faulty data - we should scrutinise it.

When the Garda Commissioner brings forward the 2014 policing plan, we should be in a position to make available the information we have put to joint policing committees. I have also put that information to the Minister and am trying to put it to the Garda Commissioner. I have spent a week trying to contact the Garda Commissioner, but he has not had the courtesy to return my call.

The 2014 policing plan should be flexible while not including incorrect matters. I am speaking specifically about the amalgamation of two Garda districts in Enniscorthy and Gorey. Such an area, with a population of 75,000, cannot be policed with a sole Garda superintendent in a single Garda district.

I think it is disappointing that Senators exceed their time allocation. It is very rude to other Members.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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With respect, I will give each remaining speaker one minute. They should make their points briefly.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I do not know what one can say in a minute.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I want to clarify a point.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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There we go again.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne will have four minutes.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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It is disrespectful to the Minister of State and the House.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It is our motion. I just want to ensure that we get enough time to wrap it up.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I will not short change you.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Chairman. I was just checking.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Keane has one minute.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Starting from now. We inherited this situation and, no matter how often one says it, the financial situation dictates policy. Fianna Fáil Members knew what the policy was when they wrote it. The figures speak for themselves. It is what one inherits. One must cut one's cloth according to one's measure. No matter how often Senator Darragh O'Brien may contradict it, inheritance does matter.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Not if it is a transfer, as in the Senator's case.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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One has to deal with the coin that turned up at the time. The fact is that crime has gone down. I do not have time to quote the statistics but I have them in writing. Meanwhile, the money has not gone down based on what the Opposition is proposing. Senator Darragh O'Brien should read the speech made in the Dáil by the Minister, Deputy Shatter. He said that we would be ¤90 million worse off.

I want to quote Mr. Vincent Browne, a man who never praises politicians. I have never quoted him before in my life but I will now.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator's time is up.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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For a man that never praises a politician, Mr. Browne said of the Minister, Deputy Shatter, that he might turn out to be the best Minister for Justice and Equality in quite some time.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We will withdraw the motion then, just because Vincent Browne said it.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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It could be the kiss of death.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I have a lot more to say but my time has elapsed.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Colm Burke has one minute.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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My colleagues on the Opposition benches should look at the television series "Love Hate" because that is what they left us with in certain areas of the country. We must adjust to responding to that type of society, which is what the Minister is doing.

The Fianna Fáil Party was in office for 14 years and the Cork prison issue was constantly being put forward. That party said it was going to something about it, but after 14 years nothing had been done. The current Minister intends to, and will, deliver a brand new prison in Cork which is long overdue. We will deliver on that matter, which is an extremely positive move.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne has four minutes to wrap up.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I am disappointed by the disrespect the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has shown to the House by not attending the debate on a motion concerning him. Let us not be confused. This motion is not about the Minister's attendance before this House and how great he is to the Seanad. That has nothing to do with it at all.

This motion is about the issues such as burglary that affect people on the ground. Moreover, Senator Keane and the Acting Chairman should note I quoted statistics from County Meath. In the first quarter of 2009, there were 208 burglaries, while in the third quarter of 2012, there were 322 burglaries. This constitutes an increase of 50% in burglaries and as I noted, it is replicated right across the eastern division. The Senator might pretend the number of burglaries is falling or repeat the lie that they-----

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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It is not pretence; it is fact.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne, without interruption please.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I have set out the facts from the Central Statistics Office in respect of my own county. I have them to hand and they have been put on the record a number of times. Moreover, they derive from responses from the Minister himself in Dáil Éireann.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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For one area.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has shown disrespect and discourtesy to the gardaí and to their representative bodies. He has shown disrespect and discourtesy to the Army and its representative bodies, as well as to the prison officers. These are the people who often put their lives and physical safety on the line in the service and defence of the State. My first interaction with the Minister, Deputy Shatter, was in this Chamber shortly after my election to the Seanad when he came in with all guns blazing and declared his intention to close down the Smithwick tribunal. He did not tell Members the reason and at that time also failed to tell them he had received correspondence from the judge presiding over the Smithwick tribunal outlining the reason the tribunal needed to continue for some time. My confidence in the Minister was shattered at that time. I had no confidence in him because I thought he was trying to be the new sheriff in town and was pretty unsuccessful in so doing. Fianna Fáil was able to acquire the documents under freedom of information legislation on that day regarding the correspondence between the Minister and the judge, just as the party will seek the Minister's diary for today under freedom of information legislation, because no convincing reason has been given for his absence.

Moreover, when people talk of how great the Minister is in respect of legislation, the same is true of all Ministers for Justice and Equality. It is a legislating Department that keeps producing legislation. It has no relevance to the fear people have when their Garda stations are closed, their districts are merged and there is no proper policing in their areas. Moreover, those Garda and Army staff, as well as other front-line workers, are being hit hardest under the Croke Park agreement. Through hitting their allowances, the Government is hitting the average garda or nurse as hard as those people who are on salaries of ¤100,000. That is unfair and unjust, and while my party has yet to finalise its examination of the deal, in my view it is a reason to oppose it. Fianna Fáil has no confidence in the Minister and neither do the people or the security forces of the State. It is about time that Seanad Éireann also declared that it, too, has no confidence in the Minister.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Under Standing Order 62(3)(b) I request that the division be taken again other than by electronic means.