Seanad debates

Wednesday, 20 February 2013

10:30 am

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re suspension of Standing Orders 29 and 30 on Thursday, 21 February, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business, without debate - I understand there are difficulties and delays, and the Clerk Assistant has mentioned delays in regard to servers, recording and so on, which means we will not be taking Adjournment matters tomorrow; No. 2, Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill 2012, Report Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 1 and to conclude no later than 12.30 p.m.; No. 3, statements on the future of further education and training, to be taken at 12.30 p.m. and to conclude no later than 2 p.m., with the contribution of group spokespersons not to exceed six minutes, all other Senators not to exceed four minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply to the debate no later than 1.55 p.m.; a sos will be taken between 2 p.m. and 4 p.m.; and No. 4, Private Members' business, to be taken at 4 p.m. and to conclude no later than 6 p.m.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the fulsome apology the Taoiseach made on behalf of the Government and the Irish people for the treatment of the ladies in the Magdalen laundries. It was welcome, fulsome and honest, and it is certainly a day on which we can now move on to make redress in the financial and other ways required by these ladies who suffered so gravely in these institutions.

I want to put on the record of the House that I welcome the Taoiseach's statement without reservation. He did the right thing yesterday and I certainly welcome that on behalf of my colleagues in Fianna Fáil.

Have the Leader and the leader of the Labour Party group received any clarification as to when the Minister for Social Protection received the Mangan report of the advisory group on tax and social welfare, which deals with proposals on child benefit? The report is dated 27 March 2012. I raised this issue yesterday. Senator Bacik said she did not believe the Minister had the report since last March. I know she did. We need the Minister to come here very soon to explain why when we debated the budget and the Social Welfare Act here, she put on the record of the House that she would debate the report when it was available. The report has been available since last March so I put it to the Leader that the Minister misled the House and I would like her to be given an opportunity to come here and correct the record and have a proper, open debate on child benefit. I said that we would play a constructive part in that.

Last week, I raised the situation pertaining to the Dublin north metropolitan region of An Garda Síochána in the House. There were no operational Garda vehicles available for 4.5 hours on the morning of 10 February 2013. The Garda press office denied it but it is a fact that this was the case and our gardaí are not properly resourced. A lady contacted me yesterday who was attacked and robbed in Clare Hall in north Dublin on 10 February. Thankfully, she was not badly injured. The only gardaí available to see her were two gardaí in a two-person Garda van. The gardaí were excellent and responded to her very well but they had to give that lady change out of their own pockets for her to get a bus home to Swords because they had no Garda car available. That is not on and is absolutely disgraceful. It is not the policing we deserve and our citizens require. It is certainly not the gardaí's fault. The resources they are left with are scant in the main.

I have four questions for the Leader. Does this Government respect the gardaí? Does the Leader feel the gardaí are properly resourced? Does he believe the gardaí are overpaid? Does he believe that rank-and-file gardaí should take a pay cut? Once again, I will table an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister for Justice and Equality come to the House to answer the four questions I put down today and explain how he intends to address the situation with An Garda Síochána when he has lost the confidence of every rank and file member of the gardaí? This is an unprecedented situation that is getting worse by the day. I want the Minister to state directly whether he respects or values the gardaí because his actions show that he does not. I am formally proposing that amendment to the Order of Business.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I wish to state how proud and excited I am on behalf of the Labour group to welcome the heartfelt and unreserved apology - a fulsome apology as Senator Darragh O'Brien noted - given by the Taoiseach on behalf of the State to the survivors of the Magdalen laundries. I am really proud that this Government has at last given the long-overdue recognition and acknowledgement of the pain and suffering caused to the women who spent time in the Magdalen laundries. Those laundries, as everyone is aware, operated for 74 years in this State and successive Governments failed to take any action to acknowledge their existence or State collusion in and facilitation of their existence. I very much welcome the fact that we will have a debate in this House next week and look forward to teasing out some of the issues raised by the McAleese report and what we know of the experiences of women and girls in the laundries. We know that there were not only gender but class issues involved. I wish to say how wonderful it was to see that heartfelt apology given by the Taoiseach, the words of the Taoiseach and Tánaiste and indeed the words of the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy Martin. I acknowledge that he also gave a very important apology on behalf of the Government of which he had been a member, which had failed like so many other governments to take action on this issue. It was a night in which another light was shone into very dark shadows and corners of our past in the same way as we have already acknowledged the abuse suffered by children in industrial schools and reformatories.

Many colleagues have raised a desire to debate the Mangan report with the Minister for Social Protection. She will be in this House next Tuesday so we can debate the issues with her directly as to when she received the report. It is to be published today, as we all know. Judging by what has been said about it, some of its recommendations will deserve some comprehensive debate in this House. In particular, I note Dan O'Brien's analysis in today's edition of The Irish Times which is really pertinent about the levels of child benefit and welfare payments directed towards children we have had in Ireland for many years, which have been high by international standards yet the outcomes have been very poor by international standards when one looks at our child poverty rates. We need to look at how we can best tackle child poverty in a meaningful way through social welfare payments. I pay tribute to the Minister for Social Protection who, since she took office, has expressed a desire to reform the system in a meaningful way to ensure better outcomes not just for child benefit but for other social protection payments.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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What about the respite care grants?

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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For far too long, there has been no proper analysis of the way payments and benefits have issued. The Minister is trying to do that which is very important. I look forward to that debate next Tuesday.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator Darragh O'Brien's appreciation of the Taoiseach's fine apology on behalf of the State and all of us for the neglect of those women in the Magdalen laundries. It is well-timed and certainly very sincere. I went into the Chamber to see it and during my years there, I never experienced such emotion both on the floor of the House and in the Gallery. The fact that a standing ovation was given to those victims and survivors of the Magdalen laundries was very much appreciated by all concerned. The appointment of Mr. Justice John Quirke to assess the situation is very welcome. He has a three-month mandate to come up with recommendations and should consider the families of the victims who have died and who have suffered as a result of their mothers being resident in those institutions. They should also receive consideration.

I also recognise the fact that the Leader of the Opposition on behalf of every Member of the House recognised the gesture and decision of the Government and Taoiseach and was a member of the Government that set up the redress board for those young students in reformatories. They must ensure that the lawyers will not receive the money they received from the redress board. The lawyers made more money than those poor victims of institutions like Letterfrack, which is certainly a blight on Ireland. I hope whatever is done is done speedily because some of these women are of senior age. I hope we will have a debate next week on this issue and tease out this situation. From an Irish perspective, it is very timely and should have been done a long time ago but it should never have happened in the first place. We have now reached a stage where the Taoiseach on behalf of the Government has given that apology and action is being taken to give those women some form of compensation or support. I second the amendment by the Leader of the Opposition.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I propose that No. 10 on the Order of Business be sent forward for publication subject to the agreement of the House.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Fine Gael)
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Yes. I am proposing that No. 10 be taken and that the Bill be sent forward for publication.

A report in one of today's newspapers related to absenteeism in the public sector. We should have a debate on this issue in the House. Very little real progress has been made over the past two to three years. There are genuine reasons people are absent from work such as health or family bereavement. In the health sector, while one finds junior doctors working long hours and the absenteeism level is extremely low, the absenteeism level on the administrative side in the HSE has still not changed to any great degree.

It is time to engage in a debate on this matter, particularly as it involves the use of taxpayers' money. It is important that the debate to which I refer should be constructive. If there is a need to consider how work schedules operate or the structures within people's places of employment, we should do so. It might be appropriate to invite the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, to come before the House in order that we might identify the changes which should be introduced in order that we might deal with this issue. Matters cannot be left as they stand.

10:40 am

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Ach an oiread le mo chomhghleacaithe, ba mhaith liom tréaslú leis an Taoiseach as ucht an leithscéal a gabhadh inné, lá stairiúil do na mná a d'fhulaing ins na hionaid Magdalen. Céim dhearfach chun cinn í sin agus tá súil agam go leanfar leis na moltaí a cuireadh os comhair an Tí inné. I also welcome the full apology offered by the Taoiseach yesterday. That apology is extremely apt and a recognition of the great campaign in which the women who were kept in the Magdalen laundries have engaged. I hope the plight of those who were put into the Bethany Home in Summerhill and also that of the survivors of symphysiotomy will be taken into consideration and that their cases will be dealt with swiftly also.

I wish to draw a slight analogy in this matter. The Taoiseach's apology on behalf of the State is welcome. However, on numerous occasions during my two years as a Member of this House I have outlined my hope a similar apology will not be required from a future Taoiseach in respect of the direct provision system. I have grave concerns about the system of direct provision and I am of the opinion that it must be reviewed. Coverage in the press this morning indicates that some ¤655 million was paid to the private companies which ran the direct provision system during the past ten years. These companies have unlimited status and, therefore, we are not in a position to discover the level of profits they have made. These profits were made on the backs of people kept in conditions that were far from satisfactory from a civil rights perspective.

I appreciate that the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, is processing asylum applications faster than his predecessors. However, organisations such as the Irish Refugee Council continue to raise serious questions about the conditions which obtain in the direct provision system. The Ombudsman has called for oversight of the organisations which administer the asylum system. A debate is required on the direct provision system in the light of the new information to which I refer in order that we might discover the level of profits the companies involved are making. Such a debate might also be of assistance in discovering whether there is a better way to deal with asylum applications and with those who are obliged to engage with the system. I sincerely hope it will not be necessary for the State to issue an apology to these individuals at some point in the future.

Photo of Aideen HaydenAideen Hayden (Labour)
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I also congratulate the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste on the genuinely moving and considered speeches they made in the Dáil yesterday. I must admit that I became very emotional about yesterday's events. I take the opportunity to remember the work of the late Mary Raftery, a journalist who tirelessly worked to expose institutional abuses. We owe a debt of gratitude to her for that work. It is important to remember that what is happening is a step along the road. The real proof of the pudding will lie in the quality of the redress that will be given to the victims of the Magdalen laundries. I regret to say that I do not believe this is the end of the story. There are many hidden histories in Ireland which remain to be uncovered. In that context, I refer to what occurred in county homes. As a young child, my father took me to visit an elderly relative in one of these homes. During our visit I saw through an open ward door an elderly lady sitting naked. I heard noises in that institution the likes of which I had never heard previously. Will the Leader bring to the attention of the Minister the fact that what we need to do now is, as Donogh O'Malley put it in 1969, take the skin off the pudding. Rather than waiting until the next unfortunate case is brought to our attention, we should consider establishing a permanent national investigations unit which could look into all of the institutions of the State to uncover evidence of any outstanding instances of abuse.

Photo of Labhrás Ó MurchúLabhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, compliment and commend the Taoiseach for the very full apology he offered yesterday. I do not believe anybody expected anything less of him, it was just a matter of timing. I also include the Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin and everyone else involved in yesterday's debate. I became extremely emotional when I saw all Members of Dáil Éireann give a standing ovation to the survivors seated in the Visitors Gallery. We normally give standing ovations to world leaders and celebrities. Yesterday one was given to decent human beings who had suffered quietly. That ovation was also related to the memory of those who had passed on. It is not just a matter of raising the spirits of the survivors; we have raised the spirits of the entire nation because we did the right thing. There are lessons to be learned from this.

On a completely separate and unconnected matter, yesterday I referred to Ms Marion Price who is incarcerated in Northern Ireland and currently in hospital in a very frail state. I welcome the Taoiseach's statement yesterday to the effect that he intends to raise the matter with the British Prime Minister and draw on the report of the all-party delegation which visited Ms Price. He will have a direct opportunity to raise a few fundamental questions about issues such as the location of a royal pardon given to Ms Price, why she is being subjected to a flawed process in respect of her appeal which is due to be heard in a couple of weeks and why human rights are being sidelined in this matter. This issue does not just relate to Ms Price, it also involves the need to be vigilant when it comes to the frailties in the appeals process. It is not just matters relating to prisoners, republicanism or unionism which are at stake. There are other issues relating to social deprivation and the fact that individuals have been sidelined and that there are individuals who have seen nothing good coming from the Good Friday Agreement or the appeals process. If we do not engage with those to whom I refer and individuals who have difficulties with flags, etc., there is always a danger that a new generation who have no connection with the past will come to the fore and focus on matters with which their communities have a particular difficulty. The Seanad played a significant role during the Troubles in bringing balance and a focus to fundamental and urgent issues as they arose. It can continue to do so. I am very pleased that the Taoiseach is prepared to take this matter to the highest level. I urge that this be done immediately because Ms Price's review will take place in two weeks.

Photo of John WhelanJohn Whelan (Labour)
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It would be remiss of me not to raise the issue to which I am about to refer. Two years ago I was fortunate to be elected from the labour panel in order that I might represent workers' interests. I come from Portlaoise which is home to the country's two largest high security prisons. In that context, I register my dismay at the manner in which workers who are members of the 24/7 Frontline Services Alliance are being treated in the current review relating to the Croke Park agreement and in the discussions on pay. I support the people concerned in their view that they have been double-crossed. The current Croke Park agreement to which they signed up in good faith still has 12 months to run. They conceded to pay cuts, rationalisation, reform and redundancies. They bought into, embraced and honoured the agreement but halfway through its period of operation, they are of the view that they are being double-crossed. Those to whom I refer are being asked to accept further cuts and are being pilloried and characterised as people who do not want to move forward. That is wrong.

It is both wrong and Thatcherite in the extreme to try to encourage divisions between public and private sector workers. Certain organisations within the public sector are even trying to encourage such divisions between different elements within the sector. That is also wrong. I intend no disrespect to other public or private sector workers, but one cannot compare the work done on a Sunday by someone employed in a shop, an office or a restaurant with that done by a garda, a prison officer in a high security prison, a nurse in an accident and emergency department, a soldier or a fire-fighter on the same day, to whom we turn when we need help. They operate in dangerous and attritional working environments and often put their lives on the line for us. Not even Stalin could turn Sunday into Monday. Since biblical times, Sunday has been a day of rest and recreation which people have spent with their families. However, there has been an attempt to use the current crisis to see to it that working on a Sunday will be treated in the same way as working on a Monday. That is wrong and will not be allowed to stand.

10:50 am

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate the Taoiseach on what was a full apology to the women who were in the Magdalen institutions, an apology which was long overdue from successive Governments. It is a tribute to him that he appointed Mr. Martin McAleese to the Seanad to carry out that very difficult task of researching what had happened in the Magdalen laundries, culminating in the report presented and last night's apology, which we all welcome.

I ask the Leader to organise a debate on red tape and regulatory impact assessments. The Government promised that it would cut red tape by ensuring legislation from this House or the European Union would be thoroughly scrutinised to ensure it would not stop job creation or prevent the sustaining of employment. However, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister, Deputy Brendan Howlin, have carried out only one regulatory impact assessment of all the legislation passed through these Houses in two years. That is all he has done in two years. A total of 200 EU directives were issued last year and 167 the year before, but the Minister has only carried out one regulatory impact assessment. This House deals on average with 50 Bills a year, but only one regulatory impact assessment has been carried out. A report was produced on the amount of red tape involved on Valentia Island. Between marine licences, planning permission applications and other Government-controlled authorities and regulations, red tape was preventing the creation of a total of 70 jobs. Regulatory impact assessments need to be carried out of all legislation and EU directives, yet the Minister has only carried out one such assessment. One report in two years does not look like reform.

Photo of Michael MullinsMichael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator Colm Burke.

Like other speakers, I wish to refer to the apology given by the Taoiseach last night. The date 19 February 2013 will forever be remembered as the day on which a very bright light was necessarily shone on a very dark chapter of Ireland's history. I applaud the Taoiseach for taking a period of two weeks to consider the McAleese report and his meetings with the Magdalen survivors. This contributed to the sincerity and content of the apology he gave. I also welcome the apology from the Tánaiste, the leader of Fianna Fáil and the fine contributions of other speakers last night. I do not think I have ever witnessed such unanimity among Oireachtas Members. The sense of relief and appreciation among the Magdalen survivors was palpable around Leinster House. As other speakers said, it was a good night for Ireland and the Oireachtas.

I hope the arrangements to be spearheaded by Mr. Justice Quirke will run smoothly. It is welcome that no very large legal fees will be part of this arrangement. It is to be hoped the process will be non-adversarial and that the outcomes will be satisfactory to all of the Magdalen surivors.

I support Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh's proposal. I ask for a debate with the Minister for Justice and Equality on the direct provision facilities. We need the Minister to assure us that we are getting value for money and that the people being cared for are receiving the care and support they deserve.

Photo of John KellyJohn Kelly (Labour)
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I support my colleague, Senator John Whelan, in his call for proper engagement with the 24-7 Frontline Services Alliance. I said last week in the House that front-line workers and middle-income earners had nothing left to give in further talks. As Senator Diarmuid Wilson said, morale in the Garda Síochána is at an all-time low. I know that in some Garda stations in this city gardaí do not have stationery supplies. The Government might be looking in the wrong direction when trying to solve the problem. It has suggested a fire crew of five personnel should be sent to deal with a house fire, while there are 30 fire chiefs and 350 assistant chief fire officers. There is only one chief fire officer in the North of Ireland and two assistant chiefs. That is the example to consider rather than cutting the number of front-line staff. The same problems are evident in the HSE. Everyone and anyone knows the HSE is top-heavy with management staff, yet we are asking junior nurses to take serious pay cuts and work for ¤22,000 a year. We are looking in the wrong direction when trying to solve our problems. We have to avoid strikes at all costs in order that the country will not be brought to a standstill. Proper engagement with the 24/7 alliance is the only way to proceed.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should make that speech to the Labour Party Parliamentary Party.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I remind the Senator that he has already spoken, although I know Roscommon Senators are united.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Like other Senators, I acknowledge the wonderful contribution of the Taoiseach last evening in the Dáil. The apology was long overdue, but it came at a very important juncture. It is to be hoped it will give some solace to the victims of the Magdalen laundries. The attention now moves to the question of redress, which is essential. Such redress must not favour the legal profession substantially; rather, the money should be directed to the victims and their families. The Government must ensure there will be no repetition of what happened when redress was made available by the State and the legal profession benefited substantially.

I agree wholeheartedly with Senator John Kelly and other Senators who spoke about front-line emergency staff. Nurses, front-line local authority staff, HSE front-line staff and firemen should not be alienated by the State in seeking cost savings. The Senator highlighted staff in local authorities, HSE management, at all tiers of management, including very senior staff in every Department, who are tripping over each other. They are not being targeted, even though most of them are in receipt of salaries in excess of ¤70,000 to ¤100,000 a year. Why is the Government touching those on salaries of ¤20,000 to ¤30,000 a year? Strikes must be avoided at all costs. Members of An Garda Síochána and nurses took out mortgages when property prices were high, but now they are suffering and struggling to repay these loans. The removal of allowances which are deemed to form part of core pay should not be undertaken. The Government needs to go back to the drawing board. It needs to look at those at the top of the public sector pay bill to see if they can give a little more. It needs to engage proactively with the 24-7 alliance, rather than adopt a stand-off approach as is happening. A stand-off will lead to strikes and everyone will suffer as a result.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Like other speakers, I compliment the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, Deputy Michael Martin, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, and the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch. Yesterday was a fine day. The Magdalen girls and ladies had suffered for so long. I listened to them on "Morning Ireland" and they appreciate all that was done. The Taoiseach's speech was very moving. He demonstrated compassion for the ladies and scrubbed away the nation's shadows.

I call on the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, and his Cabinet colleague, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to reach out and meet the leaders of the 24/7 Frontline Services Alliance who are justifiably seething with anger lest the Government imposes unilateral cuts in pay that is neither a bonus nor an increment but an allowance in recognition of the anti-social and anti-family nature of working on a Sunday, week in and week out for the 52 weeks of the year, or when everybody else is on holidays, can take bank holiday breaks or spend Christmas with their families. I implore the Leader to call on the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister for Justice and Equality to re-engage with the GRA and the AGSI which also have a responsibility - - - - -

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is over time

Photo of John WhelanJohn Whelan (Labour)
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Let me finish on this point. It would be damaging to the Government, the country and democracy if we were to go down the road taken in Bulgaria - the Bulgarian Government has resigned en masse- or Greece in which there are ongoing national strikes by public sector workers. I am imploring the Government, particularly the two Ministers involved, to re-engage with the trade union leaders who have left the talks. If would be a disaster if members of the Garda Síochána and prison officers were forced to strike. There would be no recovery from it.

Photo of Feargal QuinnFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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Last night was an emotional one, a night that enhanced the reputation of the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Taoiseach's words came from the heart and were very worthy. Very often our experience of a public apology is that it is tempered by an attempt at protection. The Taoiseach must, therefore, be congratulated.

Will the Leader consider allowing a debate on the report of the Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation entitled, Creating Policies that Work - Actions to Address Youth and Long-Term Unemployment, which was launched yesterday and is worthy of discussion? One of its proposals is that we introduce a youth guarantee in order that anybody under the age of 25 years who has finished his or her education and has not found a job within four months would be given a guarantee of either further education, an apprenticeship, a traineeship or a job. This concept is based on a similar strategy in Austria, Sweden and New Zealand. It would be very worthwhile to discuss this proposal because the benefits that would result are such that it should be brought to the attention of everybody involved in job creation. The day before yesterday I went to Dundalk Institute of Technology to speak on the subject of entrepreneurship. All students take a module in entrepreneurship. It is a real reminder that we can do things ourselves rather than expecting others to do them for us.

I hope in the year of The Gathering we will see the return of tourists. One of the things that frustrates me is the number of lampposts with ties used to attach election posters. Last night on the way home there was one lamppost which still had 15 ties on it. When the political parties take down their posters, they leave the ties behind. I am not suggesting we ask Dublin City Council to perform this task but that each one of us go and look at the lampposts near our home and remove the ties which look untidy and are to be found all around the country.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I join Councillor Séamus Cosaí Fitzgerald in welcoming the return of road signs that direct people to Dingle. Under a previous Administration, it was ordered that signage for Dingle would be in the Irish language and that the town would be known as "An Daingean"

Photo of Terry BrennanTerry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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An Daingean Uí Chúis

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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No, An Daingean.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Daingean is in County Offaly.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The people of Dingle decided in a plebiscite, as I reminded the previous Seanad, that the name should be "Dingle - Daingean Ui Chúis.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The National Roads Authority had decided that this is what would be done and it will happen in the next month or two. This is to be welcomed in advance of the tourism season. Too many visitors to Dingle, that delightful part of the world in beautiful County Kerry, did not know where they were going.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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They were going to Killarney.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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"An Daingean" meant nothing to them.

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Tourist numbers are falling in Galway.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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They got stuck in Killarney.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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We are hoping for greater numbers as a result of The Gathering.

I join other speakers in welcoming the speeches made in the Lower House last night. It was the Taoiseach's finest hour. We know they were overdue, but they were heartfelt. It is wonderful what is happening.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I join other colleagues in welcoming the Taoiseach's apology on behalf of every one of us to the former residents of the Magdalen laundries. I congratulate him on the sincere, cool and honest way he delivered his contribution. I also congratulate the other speakers, including the leader of my own party, who apologised for doing nothing during the 14 years he was in government.

I support the leader of the Fianna Fáil group, Senator Darragh O'Brien, in again calling on the Minister for Justice and Equality to come into the Chamber to address the very serious difficulties arising in the ranks of An Garda Síochána. I have never witnessed such low morale among the gardaí I meet on a day-to-day basis in my county town and throughout the country. The morale of gardaí is at rock bottom because of the way they are being treated by the Minister. I had occasion to see how he treated members of the Defence Forces in my county and I am not going to allow that to happen to members of An Garda Síochána also.

Let me draw the attention of the Leader to a headline in one of the national newspapers that indicates that one of the major banks, AIB, is proposing to increase interest rates for mortgage holders. On what planet are the bankers living? I ask the Leader to please communicate with the Minister for Finance about the proposed increase which will drive hard-pressed mortgage holders over the cliff. It will be the final straw. AIB is only the stalking horse for the other banks which will also increase their interest rates. The Minister must be asked what he will do about this proposal.

Photo of Jimmy HarteJimmy Harte (Labour)
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Last night was a very poignant one for the people in the Visitors Gallery and others outside Leinster House who watched the Taoiseach apologise to the women who had spent time in the Magdalen laundries. It was followed by an apology from the Tánaiste and the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch. The leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, Deputy Micheál Martin, also apologised for doing nothing. Let me repeat what I said last week. It was like a scene from "Waiting for Godot" when nothing happens twice. That was a feature of the previous Administration. Will Deputy Micheál Martin apologise to the hundreds of thousands out of jobs who were victims of the policies he initiated? I give credit to Senators on the other side of the House and others who stood for election who went to doors as Fianna Fáil candidates and received terrible hassle.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Here we go again.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Jimmy HarteJimmy Harte (Labour)
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I asked it yesterday.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There is no need to ask it again today. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Jimmy HarteJimmy Harte (Labour)
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Perhaps he did not hear me yesterday.

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Nothing happens twice

Photo of Jimmy HarteJimmy Harte (Labour)
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Thank you, Senator. Will the debate on the Magdalen laundries include a visit from Deputy Micheál Martin to explain - - - - -

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I am sure he would be delighted to come into the House if he was invited.

Photo of Jimmy HarteJimmy Harte (Labour)
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I am sure he would not be so delighted.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I am sure he would be.

Photo of Jimmy HarteJimmy Harte (Labour)
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We should extend the invitation to his former Cabinet colleagues who did not have the guts to stand for election, unlike my colleague opposite.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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A question for the Leader, please.

Photo of Jimmy HarteJimmy Harte (Labour)
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I will ask the same question that I asked yesterday and will ask it again tomorrow.

11:00 am

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate the Taoiseach on what was a full apology to the women who were in the Magdalen institutions, an apology which was long overdue from successive Governments. It is a tribute to him that he appointed Mr. Martin McAleese to the Seanad to carry out that very difficult task of researching what had happened in the Magdalen laundries, culminating in the report presented and last night's apology, which we all welcome.

I ask the Leader to organise a debate on red tape and regulatory impact assessments. The Government promised that it would cut red tape by ensuring legislation from this House or the European Union would be thoroughly scrutinised to ensure it would not stop job creation or prevent the sustaining of employment. However, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister, Deputy Brendan Howlin, have carried out only one regulatory impact assessment of all the legislation passed through these Houses in two years. That is all he has done in two years. A total of 200 EU directives were issued last year and 167 the year before, but the Minister has only carried out one regulatory impact assessment. This House deals on average with 50 Bills a year, but only one regulatory impact assessment has been carried out. A report was produced on the amount of red tape involved on Valentia Island. Between marine licences, planning permission applications and other Government-controlled authorities and regulations, red tape was preventing the creation of a total of 70 jobs. Regulatory impact assessments need to be carried out of all legislation and EU directives, yet the Minister has only carried out one such assessment. One report in two years does not look like reform.

Photo of Michael MullinsMichael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator Colm Burke.

Like other speakers, I wish to refer to the apology given by the Taoiseach last night. The date 19 February 2013 will forever be remembered as the day on which a very bright light was necessarily shone on a very dark chapter of Ireland's history. I applaud the Taoiseach for taking a period of two weeks to consider the McAleese report and his meetings with the Magdalen survivors. This contributed to the sincerity and content of the apology he gave. I also welcome the apology from the Tánaiste, the leader of Fianna Fáil and the fine contributions of other speakers last night. I do not think I have ever witnessed such unanimity among Oireachtas Members. The sense of relief and appreciation among the Magdalen survivors was palpable around Leinster House. As other speakers said, it was a good night for Ireland and the Oireachtas.

I hope the arrangements to be spearheaded by Mr. Justice Quirke will run smoothly. It is welcome that no very large legal fees will be part of this arrangement. It is to be hoped the process will be non-adversarial and that the outcomes will be satisfactory to all of the Magdalen surivors.

I support Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh's proposal. I ask for a debate with the Minister for Justice and Equality on the direct provision facilities. We need the Minister to assure us that we are getting value for money and that the people being cared for are receiving the care and support they deserve.

Photo of John KellyJohn Kelly (Labour)
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I support my colleague, Senator John Whelan, in his call for proper engagement with the 24-7 Frontline Services Alliance. I said last week in the House that front-line workers and middle-income earners had nothing left to give in further talks. As Senator Diarmuid Wilson said, morale in the Garda Síochána is at an all-time low. I know that in some Garda stations in this city gardaí do not have stationery supplies. The Government might be looking in the wrong direction when trying to solve the problem. It has suggested a fire crew of five personnel should be sent to deal with a house fire, while there are 30 fire chiefs and 350 assistant chief fire officers. There is only one chief fire officer in the North of Ireland and two assistant chiefs. That is the example to consider rather than cutting the number of front-line staff. The same problems are evident in the HSE. Everyone and anyone knows the HSE is top-heavy with management staff, yet we are asking junior nurses to take serious pay cuts and work for ¤22,000 a year. We are looking in the wrong direction when trying to solve our problems. We have to avoid strikes at all costs in order that the country will not be brought to a standstill. Proper engagement with the 24/7 alliance is the only way to proceed.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should make that speech to the Labour Party Parliamentary Party.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I remind the Senator that he has already spoken, although I know Roscommon Senators are united.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Like other Senators, I acknowledge the wonderful contribution of the Taoiseach last evening in the Dáil. The apology was long overdue, but it came at a very important juncture. It is to be hoped it will give some solace to the victims of the Magdalen laundries. The attention now moves to the question of redress, which is essential. Such redress must not favour the legal profession substantially; rather, the money should be directed to the victims and their families. The Government must ensure there will be no repetition of what happened when redress was made available by the State and the legal profession benefited substantially.

I agree wholeheartedly with Senator John Kelly and other Senators who spoke about front-line emergency staff. Nurses, front-line local authority staff, HSE front-line staff and firemen should not be alienated by the State in seeking cost savings. The Senator highlighted staff in local authorities, HSE management, at all tiers of management, including very senior staff in every Department, who are tripping over each other. They are not being targeted, even though most of them are in receipt of salaries in excess of ¤70,000 to ¤100,000 a year. Why is the Government touching those on salaries of ¤20,000 to ¤30,000 a year? Strikes must be avoided at all costs. Members of An Garda Síochána and nurses took out mortgages when property prices were high, but now they are suffering and struggling to repay these loans. The removal of allowances which are deemed to form part of core pay should not be undertaken. The Government needs to go back to the drawing board. It needs to look at those at the top of the public sector pay bill to see if they can give a little more. It needs to engage proactively with the 24-7 alliance, rather than adopt a stand-off approach as is happening. A stand-off will lead to strikes and everyone will suffer as a result.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Like other speakers, I compliment the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, Deputy Michael Martin, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, and the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch. Yesterday was a fine day. The Magdalen girls and ladies had suffered for so long. I listened to them on "Morning Ireland" and they appreciate all that was done. The Taoiseach's speech was very moving. He demonstrated compassion for the ladies and scrubbed away the nation's shadows.

It is time to have such a debate on scrubbing away our nation's shadows. That would be a good title for such a debate because for too many years we put away our conscience and not just alone on this issue. As well as doing a great service to the women who were in the Magdalen laundries and what they suffered as demonstrated in the report, such a debate would help Ireland's conscience to realise the Ireland we thought we had was all a shadow.

I am proud to be a member of a party that has a leader such as Deputy Enda Kenny who showed his compassion, that he is real and that he cares. He has done for the country, his people and the Magdalen people a magnificent job. I also want to pay tribute to Deputy Martin who had the guts to stand up-----

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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He was four years too late.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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It was but it is better late than never. The Ministers involved, Deputies Shatter and Kathleen Lynch, have been campaigning on this issue for many years.

The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, will visit Russia tomorrow for discussions on interstate adoptions. She has done Trojan work in this area. Regarding adoption rights, many of the girls from the Magdalen laundries and others are trying to trace their parents for many reasons, including medical reasons. We must ensure all help is given in this area.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I will preface my remarks by thanking the Leader for his response to the issue I raised yesterday on the possibility that householders could be saddled with the burden of unpaid development levies if various city and county councils were thinking of targeting them as has been reported. In my

extempore remarks, I made an unfortunate slip of the tongue in that I referred to Galway County Council when I meant to refer to Galway City Council.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Galway County Council is at it too, so the Senator should not worry about that remark. They are all at it.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I will be inquiring anyway of the various councils as to what will happen.

I want to be associated with the general message, response and welcome to what the Taoiseach and other members of the Government said yesterday evening on the Magdalen laundries. The Taoiseach's response went a long way towards addressing any discontent that there might have been over a perceived delay in a Government response. What was said could have been said earlier, however. Perhaps Dr. McAleese's report may have taken the Government by surprise to some extent.

There is also a lesson here for how communications are managed in these situations. Expectations are important and it is probably a good development that when a report like this comes out that it would be clearly understood that there will be some time taken before giving a response.

Photo of John WhelanJohn Whelan (Labour)
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What about the church's role?

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is appropriate it would be done in a considered way. We will now enter into a complex period in identifying how best to do justice for the undoubted wrongs and cruelties of the past that these women suffered. I hope all parties will be generous. It will probably require some creativity in coming up with the solution that will reflect the diverse types of situations that arose.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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I am often exasperated listening to my colleagues on the other side of the House. Fianna Fáil has always managed to put the party's interests ahead of the country's.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely not. We would not be where we are if we did.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Gilroy without interruption.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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Three times in the history of the State, we have seen how Fianna Fáil almost bankrupted the country and finally on its fourth attempt it managed to do just that.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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I have indeed.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It better be good then.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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It is remarkable then when one sees the amnesia affecting the Opposition with regard to its own incompetency and misgovernment.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Talk about amnesia. The Senator was once a member of Fianna Fáil for years.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Gilroy without interruption.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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The Opposition makes general and supportive noises towards the most populist arguments. We must remember it was a Fianna Fáil Government that reduced public servants' pay by 14%. We did not hear much of a complaint out of the Members opposite then.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We agreed the Croke Park agreement.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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Did Fianna Fáil reduce public servants' pay by 14%?

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Who set up the redress board?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Has Senator Gilroy a question for the Leader?

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We increased social welfare by 300%.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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A Chathaoirligh, the Senator is being provocative. You should prevent that.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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In addition to giving vent to my frustration with the hypocrisy on the other side of the House, I want to welcome-----

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Takes one to know one.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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-----the good news, which has not been commented upon in the House, that of the ¤1.2 billion sale of Permanent TSB.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator means Irish Life.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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It demonstrates the good management of the public finances by the Government. It is a vote of confidence in the country that international investors would see fit to pay full market value for what we borrowed and paid two years ago for the company. All told, it represents a ¤8 billion commitment which we will receive from international investors in transactions managed by the State or entities controlled by the State. In addition to the deal we got on the promissory notes last week, it is a sign that on a macroeconomic level at least we are going in the right direction. I compliment the Government on this and hope the Opposition would refer to good news now and again.

Photo of John CrownJohn Crown (Independent)
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I would be grateful if the Leader could get clarification from the Minister for Health on the position of the funding for the Irish Patients Association, a representative group which has been involved in the agitation for patients' rights over the past several years. It has done such good work that it has been internationally recognised with membership on international patient advocacy groups. Apparently, a decision was made to de-fund the organisation. I am curious as to what the circumstances behind this were and would be grateful if it could be clarified for us.

Will the Leader get clarification from the Minister for Justice and Equality as to what investigation will take place with regard to potential conflict of interest issues that arise with the Magdalen laundries? State moneys were paid to hospitals which were then paid to the laundries for a service which did the work in terms that have been described as perhaps slave labour but certainly unpaid labour. The laundries in some cases were operated by the same religious orders with which the hospital contracts were held and to which Government funds were paid at break-even, subsistence levels or even at a loss. There seems to be a need for a greater level of accountancy scrutiny than took place in the McAleese report which to the best of my knowledge only had accounting evidence provided by the accountants who worked for the organisations. As it is likely there will be State-funded redress for the victims of the Magdalen atrocity, it is important those complex financial weaves are disentangled.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach's speech yesterday on the Magdalen laundries was encrypted with humanity, humility, compassion, understanding, generosity and the type of leadership that we expect from a man of his calibre. It was appropriate, long overdue but the right thing to do. This Taoiseach has proved that he does not take advice from his advisers and opinions from legal people but says and does the right thing. Yesterday was an extremely good day for Ireland, for democracy, for politics and doing the right thing for citizens who this State had clearly failed. To bring this to a finality, I would like to see the same leadership to be shown by the people who ran these institutions.

As a practising Catholic I believe that elements in the Catholic Church have a responsibility to follow the leadership of the Taoiseach and I sincerely hope that happens. I have every confidence that the redress system will be generous, fair and easily managed. I sincerely hope that the Catholic Church and the elements within it that ran these institutions pay their fair share under the redress system.

11:10 am

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I am proud of our Taoiseach today, proud that he had the capacity to deliver such a meaningful apology and to provide an indication of the compensation deal on behalf of the Government and the people to the Magdalen women.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I met them this morning in Buswells Hotel and they were so happy they were walking 10 ft. tall. They put it to me that a great weight had been lifted off their shoulders. They are new women today. However, I am not only proud for the Magdalen women, I am proud for Ireland. We have had such a blackened and hidden past but what we did as a Government yesterday lifted the veil off that. This has been a good day for women, children and young girls.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Any of these people could have been our sisters, mothers or daughters. This is highly significant and I wish to put as much on the record.

I was flabbergasted today by a story in The Irish Times that our pillar banks could consider writing off some of the ¤400 million debt of Independent News & Media, the largest newspaper group with popular titles such as the Sunday Independent and the Irish Independent. What is the justification for this when they will not even write down the mortgages for hard-pressed homeowners and given that we have learned today that AIB is considering raising variable rate mortgages for 300,000 homeowners? It is ridiculous. I was pleased to read that senior Government figures are highly concerned about this. However, I wish to know and I believe the House wishes to know details of the conditions our Government has set on State moneys given to pillar banks. Are preconditions in place? What type of accountability is in place for the State-owned pillar banks to the Oireachtas and to Members?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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You are over time, Senator.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We saw before that they used our State funds to pay off their bankers with their pensions.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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You are way over time, Senator. I call Senator Moran.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach had to intervene. We need an answer and I believe the House should join me in requesting it.

Photo of Mary MoranMary Moran (Labour)
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I wish to add my voice of support. I was singularly proud to be in the House last night. I consider the moment An Taoiseach, An Tánaiste and Deputy Martin paid the long-overdue apology and dues to the women who have suffered down through the years to be probably the finest moment of this Government so far. Outside at the vigil yesterday I spoke to some of the women. They were remarkably grateful for the tone and manner in which the apology was delivered. It was long overdue. I echo the sentiments of Senator Conway, who said he hoped that the religious institutes that incarcerated these women will now pay their fair share as well.

I echo the calls this morning for a debate on direct provision. I was horrified to read in the Irish Examiner this morning that ¤655 million has been paid to companies and individuals for accommodation to support asylum seekers, yet these people are on a pittance and have no direct right to work.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Unbelievable.

Photo of Mary MoranMary Moran (Labour)
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I echo the calls for a debate on this matter.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The vast majority of Members who spoke welcomed the Taoiseach's apology last night. For anyone in the House last night who was listening it was a rather emotional debate, there is no question about it. The sincerity and compassion of all speakers was clearly evident.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is true.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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To see first of all the ladies from the Magdalen laundries stand and applaud the Taoiseach after his speech and then all Members, including the Ceann Comhairle, stand and applaud these women was a sight to behold. Anyone present could not but have been touched by the emotion in that House yesterday evening.

We are all keen to see a proper system of redress for the ladies of the Magdalen. The fact that Mr. Justice Quirke has been appointed to consider a proper scheme and report within three months indicates that we will have action on this matter soon. We all agree that it was something that should have been acted upon many years ago but was not. Now that it has been and that the apology has been given I hope the redress for those wonderful ladies will materialise fairly soon.

Senator O'Brien asked about the Garda and highlighted that there were no Garda vehicles in a particular area. Some 203 extra vehicles were provided last year and ¤5 million extra was provided this year for the purchase of vehicles for An Garda Síochána. The matter raised by Senator O'Brien is unacceptable and I hope that funding will address the matter of the availability of vehicles. This Government totally respects and values gardaí and values the services of all involved, not alone in the Garda but in all services, including ambulance men, nurses and everyone else. That is why we are looking for the fairest possible deal under Croke Park for all public services. The first five weeks of the talks have taken place and they did not concern people on the front line. They were about the pay and conditions of other members in the public service, including people on large salaries and their pensions. These issues have been mentioned as well and will have to be addressed and will be addressed but, ultimately, we must have the fairest system for all public servants.

Senator O'Brien raised a matter on the Order of Business some weeks ago which I brought to the attention of the Minister for Justice and Equality. The Senator suggested that there was a directive from the Dublin joint policing committee to the effect that in some way burglaries would be overlooked and that a lenient sentence would be given to those involved. I have a reply from the Minister on the matter and I will put it on the record of the House:

I refer to your letter of 5 February 2013 concerning a matter raised on the Order of Business suggesting that a directive had issued to the courts on the matter of sentencing in burglary cases. As you might observe, this is not a matter in which I or my Department would involve itself. The Dublin City Council central area policing sub-committee wrote to me on the matter and has been informed that no such directive has issued nor could issue. As you are aware, the position is that judges are independent in the matter of sentencing as in other matters concerning the exercise of judicial functions, subject only to the Constitution and the law and neither I as Minister nor my Department could issue any such directive in this regard.
I hope that clarifies the matter raised by the Senator.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It does. I thank the Leader.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Bacik raised the question of the Mangan report as did Senator O'Brien. The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, will be here to speak on the Mangan report next week.

Senator Leyden raised the issue of redress and I have referred to the appointment of Mr. Justice Quirke in this regard.

It is time to have such a debate on scrubbing away our nation's shadows. That would be a good title for such a debate because for too many years we put away our conscience and not just alone on this issue. As well as doing a great service to the women who were in the Magdalen laundries and what they suffered as demonstrated in the report, such a debate would help Ireland's conscience to realise the Ireland we thought we had was all a shadow.

I am proud to be a member of a party that has a leader such as Deputy Enda Kenny who showed his compassion, that he is real and that he cares. He has done for the country, his people and the Magdalen people a magnificent job. I also want to pay tribute to Deputy Martin who had the guts to stand up-----

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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He was four years too late.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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It was but it is better late than never. The Ministers involved, Deputies Shatter and Kathleen Lynch, have been campaigning on this issue for many years.

The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, will visit Russia tomorrow for discussions on interstate adoptions. She has done Trojan work in this area. Regarding adoption rights, many of the girls from the Magdalen laundries and others are trying to trace their parents for many reasons, including medical reasons. We must ensure all help is given in this area.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I will preface my remarks by thanking the Leader for his response to the issue I raised yesterday on the possibility that householders could be saddled with the burden of unpaid development levies if various city and county councils were thinking of targeting them as has been reported. In my

extempore remarks, I made an unfortunate slip of the tongue in that I referred to Galway County Council when I meant to refer to Galway City Council.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Galway County Council is at it too, so the Senator should not worry about that remark. They are all at it.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I will be inquiring anyway of the various councils as to what will happen.

I want to be associated with the general message, response and welcome to what the Taoiseach and other members of the Government said yesterday evening on the Magdalen laundries. The Taoiseach's response went a long way towards addressing any discontent that there might have been over a perceived delay in a Government response. What was said could have been said earlier, however. Perhaps Dr. McAleese's report may have taken the Government by surprise to some extent.

There is also a lesson here for how communications are managed in these situations. Expectations are important and it is probably a good development that when a report like this comes out that it would be clearly understood that there will be some time taken before giving a response.

Photo of John WhelanJohn Whelan (Labour)
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What about the church's role?

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is appropriate it would be done in a considered way. We will now enter into a complex period in identifying how best to do justice for the undoubted wrongs and cruelties of the past that these women suffered. I hope all parties will be generous. It will probably require some creativity in coming up with the solution that will reflect the diverse types of situations that arose.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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I am often exasperated listening to my colleagues on the other side of the House. Fianna Fáil has always managed to put the party's interests ahead of the country's.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely not. We would not be where we are if we did.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Gilroy without interruption.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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Three times in the history of the State, we have seen how Fianna Fáil almost bankrupted the country and finally on its fourth attempt it managed to do just that.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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I have indeed.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It better be good then.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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It is remarkable then when one sees the amnesia affecting the Opposition with regard to its own incompetency and misgovernment.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Talk about amnesia. The Senator was once a member of Fianna Fáil for years.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Gilroy without interruption.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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The Opposition makes general and supportive noises towards the most populist arguments. We must remember it was a Fianna Fáil Government that reduced public servants' pay by 14%. We did not hear much of a complaint out of the Members opposite then.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We agreed the Croke Park agreement.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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Did Fianna Fáil reduce public servants' pay by 14%?

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Who set up the redress board?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Has Senator Gilroy a question for the Leader?

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We increased social welfare by 300%.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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A Chathaoirligh, the Senator is being provocative. You should prevent that.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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In addition to giving vent to my frustration with the hypocrisy on the other side of the House, I want to welcome-----

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Takes one to know one.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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-----the good news, which has not been commented upon in the House, that of the ¤1.2 billion sale of Permanent TSB.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator means Irish Life.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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It demonstrates the good management of the public finances by the Government. It is a vote of confidence in the country that international investors would see fit to pay full market value for what we borrowed and paid two years ago for the company. All told, it represents a ¤8 billion commitment which we will receive from international investors in transactions managed by the State or entities controlled by the State. In addition to the deal we got on the promissory notes last week, it is a sign that on a macroeconomic level at least we are going in the right direction. I compliment the Government on this and hope the Opposition would refer to good news now and again.

Photo of John CrownJohn Crown (Independent)
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I would be grateful if the Leader could get clarification from the Minister for Health on the position of the funding for the Irish Patients Association, a representative group which has been involved in the agitation for patients' rights over the past several years. It has done such good work that it has been internationally recognised with membership on international patient advocacy groups. Apparently, a decision was made to de-fund the organisation. I am curious as to what the circumstances behind this were and would be grateful if it could be clarified for us.

Will the Leader get clarification from the Minister for Justice and Equality as to what investigation will take place with regard to potential conflict of interest issues that arise with the Magdalen laundries? State moneys were paid to hospitals which were then paid to the laundries for a service which did the work in terms that have been described as perhaps slave labour but certainly unpaid labour. The laundries in some cases were operated by the same religious orders with which the hospital contracts were held and to which Government funds were paid at break-even, subsistence levels or even at a loss. There seems to be a need for a greater level of accountancy scrutiny than took place in the McAleese report which to the best of my knowledge only had accounting evidence provided by the accountants who worked for the organisations. As it is likely there will be State-funded redress for the victims of the Magdalen atrocity, it is important those complex financial weaves are disentangled.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach's speech yesterday on the Magdalen laundries was encrypted with humanity, humility, compassion, understanding, generosity and the type of leadership that we expect from a man of his calibre. It was appropriate, long overdue but the right thing to do. This Taoiseach has proved that he does not take advice from his advisers and opinions from legal people but says and does the right thing. Yesterday was an extremely good day for Ireland, for democracy, for politics and doing the right thing for citizens who this State had clearly failed. To bring this to a finality, I would like to see the same leadership to be shown by the people who ran these institutions.

As a practising Catholic I believe that elements in the Catholic Church have a responsibility to follow the leadership of the Taoiseach and I sincerely hope that happens. I have every confidence that the redress system will be generous, fair and easily managed. I sincerely hope that the Catholic Church and the elements within it that ran these institutions pay their fair share under the redress system.

11:20 am

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I am proud of our Taoiseach today, proud that he had the capacity to deliver such a meaningful apology and to provide an indication of the compensation deal on behalf of the Government and the people to the Magdalen women.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I met them this morning in Buswells Hotel and they were so happy they were walking 10 ft. tall. They put it to me that a great weight had been lifted off their shoulders. They are new women today. However, I am not only proud for the Magdalen women, I am proud for Ireland. We have had such a blackened and hidden past but what we did as a Government yesterday lifted the veil off that. This has been a good day for women, children and young girls.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Any of these people could have been our sisters, mothers or daughters. This is highly significant and I wish to put as much on the record.

I was flabbergasted today by a story in The Irish Times that our pillar banks could consider writing off some of the ¤400 million debt of Independent News & Media, the largest newspaper group with popular titles such as the Sunday Independent and the Irish Independent. What is the justification for this when they will not even write down the mortgages for hard-pressed homeowners and given that we have learned today that AIB is considering raising variable rate mortgages for 300,000 homeowners? It is ridiculous. I was pleased to read that senior Government figures are highly concerned about this. However, I wish to know and I believe the House wishes to know details of the conditions our Government has set on State moneys given to pillar banks. Are preconditions in place? What type of accountability is in place for the State-owned pillar banks to the Oireachtas and to Members?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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You are over time, Senator.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We saw before that they used our State funds to pay off their bankers with their pensions.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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You are way over time, Senator. I call Senator Moran.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach had to intervene. We need an answer and I believe the House should join me in requesting it.

Photo of Mary MoranMary Moran (Labour)
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I wish to add my voice of support. I was singularly proud to be in the House last night. I consider the moment An Taoiseach, An Tánaiste and Deputy Martin paid the long-overdue apology and dues to the women who have suffered down through the years to be probably the finest moment of this Government so far. Outside at the vigil yesterday I spoke to some of the women. They were remarkably grateful for the tone and manner in which the apology was delivered. It was long overdue. I echo the sentiments of Senator Conway, who said he hoped that the religious institutes that incarcerated these women will now pay their fair share as well.

I echo the calls this morning for a debate on direct provision. I was horrified to read in the Irish Examiner this morning that ¤655 million has been paid to companies and individuals for accommodation to support asylum seekers, yet these people are on a pittance and have no direct right to work.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Unbelievable.

Photo of Mary MoranMary Moran (Labour)
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I echo the calls for a debate on this matter.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The vast majority of Members who spoke welcomed the Taoiseach's apology last night. For anyone in the House last night who was listening it was a rather emotional debate, there is no question about it. The sincerity and compassion of all speakers was clearly evident.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is true.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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To see first of all the ladies from the Magdalen laundries stand and applaud the Taoiseach after his speech and then all Members, including the Ceann Comhairle, stand and applaud these women was a sight to behold. Anyone present could not but have been touched by the emotion in that House yesterday evening.

We are all keen to see a proper system of redress for the ladies of the Magdalen. The fact that Mr. Justice Quirke has been appointed to consider a proper scheme and report within three months indicates that we will have action on this matter soon. We all agree that it was something that should have been acted upon many years ago but was not. Now that it has been and that the apology has been given I hope the redress for those wonderful ladies will materialise fairly soon.

Senator O'Brien asked about the Garda and highlighted that there were no Garda vehicles in a particular area. Some 203 extra vehicles were provided last year and ¤5 million extra was provided this year for the purchase of vehicles for An Garda Síochána. The matter raised by Senator O'Brien is unacceptable and I hope that funding will address the matter of the availability of vehicles. This Government totally respects and values gardaí and values the services of all involved, not alone in the Garda but in all services, including ambulance men, nurses and everyone else. That is why we are looking for the fairest possible deal under Croke Park for all public services. The first five weeks of the talks have taken place and they did not concern people on the front line. They were about the pay and conditions of other members in the public service, including people on large salaries and their pensions. These issues have been mentioned as well and will have to be addressed and will be addressed but, ultimately, we must have the fairest system for all public servants.

Senator O'Brien raised a matter on the Order of Business some weeks ago which I brought to the attention of the Minister for Justice and Equality. The Senator suggested that there was a directive from the Dublin joint policing committee to the effect that in some way burglaries would be overlooked and that a lenient sentence would be given to those involved. I have a reply from the Minister on the matter and I will put it on the record of the House:

I refer to your letter of 5 February 2013 concerning a matter raised on the Order of Business suggesting that a directive had issued to the courts on the matter of sentencing in burglary cases. As you might observe, this is not a matter in which I or my Department would involve itself. The Dublin City Council central area policing sub-committee wrote to me on the matter and has been informed that no such directive has issued nor could issue. As you are aware, the position is that judges are independent in the matter of sentencing as in other matters concerning the exercise of judicial functions, subject only to the Constitution and the law and neither I as Minister nor my Department could issue any such directive in this regard.
I hope that clarifies the matter raised by the Senator.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It does. I thank the Leader.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Bacik raised the question of the Mangan report as did Senator O'Brien. The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, will be here to speak on the Mangan report next week.

Senator Leyden raised the issue of redress and I have referred to the appointment of Mr. Justice Quirke in this regard.

Wilson, Diarmuid.

11:30 am

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Colm Burke has moved the following amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 10 be taken before No. 1." The Leader has indicated that he is willing to accept this amendment. Is the amendment agreed? Agreed.

Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.