Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful for the opportunity to make a number of comments on the motion. Fianna Fáil would argue strongly against the devastating blow to the security infrastructure of the State. The underhanded reduction in the force to an abysmal low of 12,000 Garda members, combined with the jaw-dropping closure of over 100 Garda stations is nothing less than an attack on the Garda Síochána by the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter. At the same time, we have an increase in burglaries, drug smuggling and serious dissident activity. The Government is going way beyond the EU-IMF agreement in slashing Garda numbers to their lowest level in over a decade and in dismantling the security infrastructure of the State by closing Garda stations across the country. Fianna Fáil has put forward a fully-costed alternative budget proposal that reopens Templemore to allow for Garda recruitment and keeps rural Garda stations open. Instead, criminals will be toasting the Minister's decision to dismantle the Garda Síochána.

I wish to focus on the set up and the difficulties in rural Ireland, even though this is a motion that embraces communities in both rural and urban Ireland. In the Mizen Head Peninsula, for example, where I live, Goleen Garda station, which is one of the most remote in Ireland, has been closed. The Minister has forgotten that three or four years ago an attempt was made to land one of the biggest shipments of drugs near Goleen and it was the local gardaí who apprehended the felons, who are now serving long sentences in Portlaoise Prison. Ballydehob Garda station on the same peninsula has been disabled and two banks on the peninsula at Ballydehob and Schull have been closed down. The peninsula is also on record as having the oldest population profile of any rural area, bar one community in Donegal which the Minister of State represents. It is also regrettable that in the last 12 months we have lost the Cork to Swansea ferry, which is having a very negative impact on people in west Cork who want to travel to and from the UK and on tourism in the area. Furthermore, Cork Airport has lost approximately one third of its flights in recent times, which is hugely damaging to the community.

The proposal by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to transfer the responsibilities of Bantry Bay Harbour Commissioners to the Cork Port Authority is something which I vehemently opposed in this House. I succeeded in deferring this when it was proposed by the former Fianna Fáil Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, when I spoke for approximately four and a half hours in this House on this matter.

I have great respect for the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, and my remarks are not directed at him. He has a great love, respect and, indeed, grá for rural Ireland. The threatened closure of many rural schools is another difficulty, as is the slow roll-out of broadband in many of the schools in west Cork. Another enormous problem is the mass emigration from our shores, which has probably never been as intense as it is at present. If one combines all of these elements, one paints a very dismal picture of the fate of rural Ireland going forward. I know of several GAA clubs in my own area where problems have arisen because of emigration. Gabriel Rangers, which is based in the Schull area won the west Cork junior football final two years ago for the first time in its history but a shopkeeper told me recently that 18 of the panel of 33 have now left Ireland, a situation that is replicated in many other areas. I am not saying that this is all the fault of the Minister for Justice and Equality. I am simply giving the House an overview of where we stand in rural Ireland.

At an Oireachtas committee meeting recently, attended by the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Martin Callinan, I focused in particular on the closure of rural Garda stations. Senator Whelan made a comment to the effect that they are just buildings but if there are no gardaí or buildings in places like Goleen, which is 40 miles away from the nearest large town, it indicates a lack of status for such places and provokes fear among locals that their local garda is gone for good and glory. When I questioned the Commissioner at that meeting he told me that, in his view, the closure of rural Garda stations was not an economic issue and that little or no savings would be made in that regard. That must be put on record. The reduction in Garda numbers is an issue of major concern, particularly when one bears in mind that approximately 2,000 members of the force are engaged in administrative duties. A total of six or seven Garda stations in my constituency have been closed. The fact that these were the most rural of stations in the area, which were serving an active community, is a matter of grave concern.

I mentioned the closure of the banks earlier. When banks close in areas which have large numbers of elderly people, some of whom do not have cars or access to decent public transport, many of them are inclined to keep money at home. The professional burglars out there who are staking out rural communities and individual houses are well aware of the fact that people are keeping money at home.

Will it be the case that whatever it costs to rectify all the leaking pipes and bad piping, people will have to pay for it? When will we have an indication about the amount of money needed and what it will cost users? It is important that people know that.

Senator Cullinane said his piece and ran out the door. To a degree there is something in what he said with regard to large families and low incomes and small families and large incomes. Perhaps some mechanism could be put in place such as an allowance for larger families which they could use first and which would be free. There may be scope for something similar to what is in place for farmers whereby farms receive X amount of water for domestic usage for free and after that they are charged. Some of these things should be examined.

I will conclude by talking to my good friend, Senator Wilson. He seems to have a remarkably short memory, as pointed out by Senator Landy, because Fianna Fáil signed up for water charges with the troika. I imagine the party's supporters have forgotten the damage that it has done by now. I remind Senator Wilson of one debate we had on the budget-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I imagine Labour Party supporters have not forgotten what it promised.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Kelly, without interruption. However, I advise you not to be provocative.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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An Lucht Oibre.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Let them enjoy it while they can.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Through the Chair, please. I am allowing you-----

Denis Landy (Labour)
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He is leaving it down to the home team.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Let them interact while they can.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Kelly without interruption. Senator Mooney, you are a senior Member here and you should know not to interrupt.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you for the kind comments.

John Kelly (Labour)
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I remind-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Allow Senator Kelly to conclude.

John Kelly (Labour)
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I realise Fianna Fáil is taking every opportunity to vote against things that it supported initially, including the budget measures which, unfortunately, I did not remind them about at the time. In the budget the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, reduced the spend on social welfare by ¤500 million to ¤19.5 billion, but Fianna Fáil had signed up with the troika to reduce the spend on social welfare to ¤18.5 billion, some ¤1 billion more of a reduction. I realise it is not relevant to water services but I questioned those in Fianna Fáil about where it would take the extra money out of social welfare and they refused to answer.

John Kelly (Labour)
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I would like to know because Fianna Fáil made a big play about taking ¤6 per week off the respite care grant.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Kelly, this is not an interaction with the Opposition.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We are not here to talk about septic tank charge.

John Kelly (Labour)
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Where was Fianna Fáil going to get the extra ¤1 billion?

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Those in the Labour Party proposed it to their partners, but they would not accept it.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Mooney, no interruptions please.

John Kelly (Labour)
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When people initially support something they should not change horses in mid-stream.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Those in the Labour Party sought to make a change to the universal social charge but their friends in government would not accept it.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Brien has five minutes.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State. I am pleased to follow Senator Kelly but I wish to stick to parts of the Bill. I have several questions for the Minister of State. I have been on record for many years in support of metering of water.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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It is a broad church.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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No, fan noméid. The question is how and when it is done, what the priorities are, and to ensure it is fair and metered. The Minister of State will know that in the north east, where we both live, in Fingal and Louth county Council there are issues with the loss of water before it gets to the taps and the consumer. I realise there are details in the capital programme on the spend. What investment does the Minister of State believe will be required in the coming two or three years to reduce the level of wastage of fresh water before it gets to the citizen? That is important and people need to know that.

I want to know how the capital budget will be managed. Does the Minister of State envisage that it will be managed by Uisce Éireann or will it be done through the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources by way of NewERA? How will it be managed? That question is fundamental. There is a significant issue in this regard and confusion arises for many people because we do not know exactly. I have heard that in 2014 the Government will begin to charge people. However, not all houses will be metered by then and the head of the Irish Water has said as much clearly. What happens in the interim? I fundamentally disagree with a flat water charge in the interim.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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There will not be one.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Minister of State will expand on that in his reply. I fundamentally disagree with the idea, but this debate provides an opportunity for the Minister of State to give clarity on many of the areas where, frankly, there has been a good deal of confusion. We could blame the devil and all, but the fact is that people are not clear on how it will work.

I have a major problem with the installation of water meters. One reason I will not support the Bill on Second Stage relates to the structure and how this will be set up. PricewaterhouseCoopers carried out a report, commissioned by the Government, on how the process should be managed. The firm clearly stated that there should be an independent Government-owned or State-owned entity. Instead, the operation is being given to a semi-State body, which will probably be a private entity in future, Bord Gáis Éireann, without any real tendering process. It was only a question of whether it would be Bord Gáis or Bord na Móna. I have grave concerns for the future and for how this will impact on people who work every day of the week in local authorities and who do a really good job.

I understand there have been three bursts of water pipes in Fingal and these problems are continuing as we speak. We regularly receive e-mails with such news. We know the infrastructure is poor in many places. We have seen improvements in recent years, including up to this winter, whereby main trunk water mains are being replaced in conjunction with other works taking place and that is sensible. I hope I will be proven wrong because water is a valuable resource for all of us and it is important that we get it right, but I do not have confidence in how we will manage the transition and ensure that we upgrade our fresh water system to the point where it should be.

There are issues with regard to the costs of the installation of the meters. We were informed at the start that the consumer and the public would not be paying for the installation. Then we learned that they would be paying by way of a loan from the National Pensions Reserve Fund in the region of ¤450 million, which would be charged at interest over 20 years at approximately ¤40 per annum. Effectively this will amount to a cost of ¤340 to the consumer. Consumers will be paying for water, which they did not have to pay for previously and now, as I understand it, they will also be paying for the installation of the meters with an interest rate charged as well. That is not equitable or fair. Before that is introduced the Government must provide absolute clarity on the degree of free water usage and this should be done on a per person per household basis. It should take into account the demographics within each household as well. If there are young children in a household it will use more water; this depends on age groups in certain households.

This needs to be worked out and it cannot be rushed and that is our problem with the Bill. The Minister of State holds a different view and I respect that. We need to consider whether we are rushing ahead with this. If we start on the basis that we will not get metering right at the beginning then public confidence will be lost. Those are some of the questions I have put to the Minister of State I know he will answer them and I appreciate that.

With the indulgence of the Leas-Chathaoirleach, I call on the Minister of State to examine the tendering process for the installation of water meters. There is a real concern that the small and medium-sized Irish business sector will be bounced out of this process. I have already received complaints about the pre-tendering qualification stage because of the level of turnover required for a tendering business. If we are serious about using this exercise to create 2,000 jobs, do we want to give those jobs to the large organisations? Should we not give them to the local businesses that are well trained to do the work and that can do it? I call on the Minister of State to examine the levels of turnover set down for businesses to tender for jobs that we all know they can do. I would be far happier, as would Senator Landy, for a business in Carrick-on-Suir to get the job to carry out the work in that area or for a business in Swords which has the expertise to get it for the surrounding area there. I do not want a large foreign conglomerate to come in and install all of these meters and I call on the Minister of State to examine that.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I extend my welcome to the Minister of State. This is very important and I support the setting up of the new water authority. Many questions have been asked and we have dealt with them thus far. Local people are working with local authorities at the moment and some of them are concerned about their jobs. Will their jobs be maintained and will they be kept on by the local authority, or will they be working for the new board? Clarity for these people is important.

It is also very important to use local contractors and subcontractors - local people with local knowledge - to install meters, a matter touched on by my colleagues. In many cases, such persons have already installed some of the systems and pipework to be used. It is important to keep them in the loop. If we are to create 2,000 jobs, it is important to keep as many of them as possible in local areas. Problems arose in the past, particularly in Border areas, when people from outside the State came into local authorities and sublet some of the work to local people. They skipped off before the job was finished without paying the local subcontractor. I have raised a number of such cases in the House. We must be careful not to allow this to happen in the future.

I understand the current free usage allowance is 50,000 gallons. Perhaps it would be a good idea to examine the limit as it applies to families, particularly those on low incomes, for whom we should do something.

A point was made about the importance of not having to dig up the road a number of times when one is doing a job. When works are being done on the roadway, the opportunity should be taken to inspect the water system and make sure it is being looked after.

Problems may be encountered by farmers who have several plots of land and are paying for several meters. I suggest there be a single universal charge for farmers. The north-south and east-west variations are unfair. There should, therefore, be a universal charge for water across the country.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Like Senator Darragh O'Brien, I believe the introduction of water charges is inevitable. It has been on the cards for a couple of decades. Ireland is the only country in Europe that does not impose a water charge, which does not necessarily make it right.

On this side of the House, we have been attempting to tease out exactly how this structure will work. We accept the inevitable principle that it will happen. I am surprised, however, especially in the light of yesterday's debate on local government reform, that there has been so little discussion on the Government side of the Government's concept of establishing a separate water authority. I fail to understand why this and the previous Government seem to have engaged in a headlong rush to remove powers from politicians at local and national level. They have chosen to establish quangos at arm's length from the Government, only to find that such bodies have very little accountability. Like Senator Darragh O'Brien, I firmly believe it is inevitable that a future Government will decide to put the water authority up for sale. Regardless of the Government's wishes in this regard, the family jewels will be sold at some point to generate income.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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That will not happen.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It has happened in the United Kingdom, in some cases with disastrous consequences, but that is further down the road.

My main concern is to ensure fairness and equity are built into the system, particularly in the interests of those who are most vulnerable. This requirement has already been established on both sides of the House. The Minister of State is operating in an environment in which people are totally unused to paying for water. A massive cultural change will take place when the people are asked to pay water charges for the first time ever. There is a large rural population outside the major cities. For such people, paying for water used to be the last thing on their minds. I cannot help reflecting on a comment made some time ago. I used to follow the mantra that water was a finite resource until a scientist pointed out that this country's rainfall levels meant it was not a finite resource. There is water in abundance at all times of the year. I am not sure Senator Michael Comiskey will agree with my view that farmers will start to increase their use of rainwater. The accumulation of rainwater, in order to cut down on paid usage, will be in vogue.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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That makes sense.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It is interesting that as technology develops, people will be able to harvest more and more rainwater in order to cut costs. Perhaps the Minister of State has a view on this. I am concerned about what will happen when charges are eventually imposed on the most vulnerable. It is only right and proper that everybody - Government and Opposition alike - accept and acknowledge that the increased level of taxation being imposed will reach breaking point at some stage, to the extent that people will say "enough is enough." I hope the timeline the Government has outlined for reaching its budgetary and fiscal targets will be adhered to in the interests of the country and social cohesion. My personal opinion which I have no evidence to support is that this will be a "make or break" year. The general population will accept the taxation measures outlined in the budget last month, but if the Government provides for a similar level of austerity this time next year, we will reach an impasse and may experience serious social breakdown in certain key areas. While I do not want to be a prophet of doom, I must emphasise that the effectiveness of the water authority will hinge on the level of trust between the Government and the people. Will it be more effective than what the local authorities are offering?

Questions have been raised about the transfer of power. I have spoken to people in local authorities who have said it is inevitable that the people currently operating the water regime in local authority areas will operate it under the new water authority. That issue must be addressed. While the installation of meters and the imposition of charges are of critical importance, the first priority will be the cultivation of the resource. As the Minister of State has said repeatedly, leakages in the system have reached unacceptably high levels. I would like to receive an assurance that this will be a major priority for the new authority. There are concerns about whether the necessary investment will be provided for. It is a matter of trust between the Government and the people. Will sufficient resources be provided to address that issue? It is going to be a problem. When people receive their bills at the end of each month, having been told by the media that millions of gallons of water are being wasted, that will also have an impact on the level of trust.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business. I understand the Minister of State must be in the other House at 4.30 p.m. Therefore, I propose that we adjourn the Second Stage debate on the Water Services Bill 2013 at 4.25 p.m. and resume it on Thursday.

John Whelan (Labour)
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I take the opportunity to welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, back to the House. As I have said for some time, the Water Services Bill 2013 is one of the most significant, strategic and substantial Bills that will be dealt with by this House and the Dáil in the current term. It is just as important as the financial legislation with which we will have to deal.

An Bord Pleanála saw fit yesterday to grant planning permission for the next phase of the expansion and development of Intel. The safety, security and sustainability of a reliable water supply was one of the key factors the board considered in granting planning permission. Intel and other similar institutions use thousands of litres of water in their factories and plants on a daily and weekly basis. This is part of the strategic planning of international companies. We are competing with countries such as Scotland and Israel for investment and job creation of this nature. As part of the planning conditions, Intel has agreed to pay ¤21 million, a significant sum, to Kildare County Council for the supply of water. To date, Intel has invested at least ¤7.5 billion in its Leixlip installation which currently employs 4,500 people. That is what we are talking about when we have a debate on water supply.

Over 30 years ago everyone thought the idea proposed by a young man who appeared on "The Late Late Show" was crazy. I refer to the proposal made by Mr. Geoff Read to sell water to people in bottles.

At the time they thought it was a laughing matter, but, of course, we are talking about the founder of Ballygowan who was before his time and, as they say, the rest is history. Who would have thought that was possible in this country where it never seems to stop raining? We are fortunate to have a supply of largely clean and reliable fresh water in our taps, of which we think nothing and which, in fact, we take for granted.

I am not sure what the charge will be for water when meters are installed. I accept, however, that any new bill coming through the door of any household will be an additional burden and that no one wants to see extra charges and bills because, ultimately, people see the charge as a tax. Whether it is, it will certainly be a burden on families and households. However, as other speakers said, most reasonable people say it is not unfair or inequitable to pay, let me suggest, ¤1 a day to be sure of a supply of clean fresh water to meet all household needs. This goes way beyond that, however, as the Minister of State knows, because we are also looking at the commercial, industrial and agricultural implications, as mentioned by other colleagues. Even though there is an abundance of rain, this does not equate with having an abundance of useable drinking water and water suitable for use by pharmaceutical companies, restaurants and other businesses such as agricultural processing and so on.

I take the opportunity to remind the Minister of State, as I have in the past, that it was in 1940 the Poulaphouca reservoir was built to supply water to the city of Dublin. However, although construction started in 1940, it was 1947 before a single drop of water became available to the city. That is the lead-in time at which we are looking. With no disrespect to anyone, we are putting the cart before the horse in talking about charging for water, installing meters and developing the water infrastructure when we have not built the necessary reservoirs and infrastructure to make sure we will have the water to supply.

I highlight for the Minister of State the need to expedite and for him to intervene in this issue personally, as I know he is committed to the project of building the Bord na Móna reservoir at Garryhinch in the midlands to supply water to Dublin and the greater Leinster region. I would not countenance for one second supporting a proposal that would be ecologically or environmentally unsound or unsafe; in fact, I would vehemently oppose such a suggestion. I am certain, however, given the available data and evidence to date, that it is possible, safe, secure and sustainable - economically, ecologically and environmentally - to abstract water from the Shannon basin at a rate of between 2% and 4% and supply it to the greater Leinster region. I remind the House that the River Shannon is in flood for 80% of the year.

How much time do I have left?

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's time is up.

John Whelan (Labour)
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I will draw to a conclusion because I know the Minister of State has to leave and we will resume the debate on Thursday.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I hate to stop the Senator in full flow.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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That is a watery comment.

John Whelan (Labour)
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I want to make one further point. People say they support the establishment of Irish Water, but they are not sure if now is the time to establish it. They also support water metering, but, again, they are not sure if now is the time to charge for water. The right time was 20 years ago.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, when the Senator's party abolished water charges.

John Whelan (Labour)
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No. My point is that as the right time to do so was 20 years ago, we have no time to waste. It should not take the troika to tell us to do what is right. We are 50 years behind the rest of Europe on this issue and it is high time we proceeded on it. I commend the Minister of State for his work on this legislation, but I suggest to him, with respect, that we tie infrastructural investment with the supply of safe and clean water.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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There seems to be uncertainty in this regard. One point that has not been raised concerns the number of houses that already have meters installed. I understand that in the case of any house built in County Meath in the past ten years provision has been made for the installation of a meter. I did not hear the Minister of State's speech, but is he making provision for those houses that already have been provided for, where it will not cost us much to install meters? There are many such houses. I know Donegal County Council charges for the supply of water to holiday homes. Will the owners of such homes be charged again? There is, therefore, much uncertainty in this regard.

The Labour Party opposed this measure before the general election, but it is now supporting it. It abolished water charges in the 1990s, a matter about which Senator John Whelan spoke.

John Whelan (Labour)
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I supported the payment of water charges.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The debate will resume tomorrow.