Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Senators for allocating time in this week's schedule of business to discuss the issue of local government reform. It is appropriate, almost 12 months from the date of our last exchange on the issue, that Members wish to revisit the subject and I am pleased to have the opportunity to update the House on developments and progress. Senators will recall that on the previous occasion we covered a good deal of ground. At that point the objective of my contribution was to frame the context of the reform debate by setting out some of the fundamentals of the local government system, the rationale for its existence, the principles we were following in implementing change, the main strands of reform and what our vision for local government might look like. I also sought and received robust and insightful views from Members on a range of issues and look forward to an equally constructive discussion today.

Since that debate it is fair to say a significant milestone was reached with the publication, on 16 October, following Government approval, of the action programme for effective local government. I take the opportunity to brief the House on some of the principal elements of the document and the implementation work being undertaken. The action programme sets out Government policy on reform across all the main areas of local government. In particular, it addresses some fundamental issues in local government structures that have been problematic for a number of years and the fact that the functions of local government in Ireland are much narrower than in most democratic states. It draws on the constitutional status local government enjoys as the second tier of government in the State and also recognises the uniqueness of local government, compared with other elements of the public service, in terms of its engagement with the public, both as citizens and consumers.

The programme is not solely concerned with correcting faults in the local government system. It is even more important to ensure local government can play as effective a role as possible in the national recovery effort and enhancing the quality of life of local communities. The programme is based on a strong rationale and purpose for local government which is expressed in a vision for the sector which states, "Local government will be the main vehicle of governance in public service at local level, leading economic, social and community development, delivering efficient and good quality services and representing citizens and communities as effectively and accountably as possible".

In keeping with that vision, the document contains a firm commitment that local government will not in the future be bypassed by the establishment of other structures of local administration outside the local government system, unless there is a compelling reason to do so. While the qualities and achievements are acknowledged in the programme, the shortcomings of the system and issues that need to be addressed are clearly and frankly identified. The system is often seen - correctly - as outdated, with anomalies, inconsistencies and other deficiencies.

For example, there is a disparate array of authorities, many lacking the scale or resources to support significant functions. Some small towns have their own council while larger towns have no municipal status. Elected bodies have limited revenue-raising powers and as a result restricted accountability, responsibility and self-reliance. Operating arrangements are often fragmented, with duplication and diseconomies; and systems of governance, performance measurement and public engagement have lagged behind modern best practice.

The programme identifies the need to address these and other weaknesses, enhance capacity and improve performance across the entire system. This involves reform of all of its key elements - structures, functions, resources, operational arrangements and governance. Local government structures are a key focus of the reform programme, with the emphasis on strengthening, modernising and streamlining them. We confirm that the city or county will continue to be the core element of local government. However, the system will be strengthened by unification of authorities in some areas, while fully maintaining county identities. As Senators are aware, this process is well under way in counties Limerick and Tipperary. Reports by the implementation groups in those areas have been published. As I commented when the report of the Limerick group was published at the end of 2012, it sets a standard for local government reform, for example, in terms of organisational and management streamlining and that action being taken in the context of unification to achieve economic transformation, which my Department has strongly supported financially and otherwise.

The Government has also decided that Waterford city and county councils should be combined to form a single strong local authority and an implementation group has been appointed to oversee and guide the reorganisation process in that county with a mid year completion target. I look forward to the positive results from local government unification in Waterford - to which Senator Cullinane does not look forward - not least in terms of economic and social revitalisation of the area as is happening in Limerick. At regional level the Government has decided to retain a regional dimension in the local government system with significant structural consolidation, including a reduction in the number of authorities and assemblies from ten to three and in membership from 290 to 62. Functions will be revised and updated, regional bodies in future will perform an enhanced function in the formulation of regional, spatial and economic strategies.

All relevant agencies will be required by legislation to participate in this process and to adhere to the adopted strategies in performance of their own functions. Many of the existing regional functions, including the role of regional assemblies on EU programmes, will be retained but updated as appropriate in light of experience to date. The new regional structures will also be used for the adoption of strategies in sectors other than the spatial-economic area and there are already indications that the new regions will be used as the basis for the development of strategies in relation to sectors such as waste and river basin management. Overall therefore, the new system of regional governance will bring a greater coherence and continuity to development in and between regions.

The aspect of the programme that has generated most attention in the media and in council chambers is the new system of municipal governance at sub-county level. There has been some predictably strong reaction to the loss of double representation in towns although I have been equally criticised by some commentators for not going far enough. Perhaps these contrasting reactions indicate that we might have got the balance right. This element of the reform programme is not about abolition, as some commentators seek to portray it. Yes, the isolated tier of town council local government, as we know it, will no longer exist. It will be replaced, however by a new model of municipal governance which will address current weaknesses and anomalies. Municipal districts will cover the entire territory of each county, providing equality of representation to all citizens, which reflects European norms, uniting towns with their hinterlands, removing outdated boundaries and ending the anomaly I referred to earlier of small towns with municipal status while much larger centres have none.

Elected members will perform more important community focused reserved functions at district level on a fully devolved basis and very importantly without duplication at county level. Municipal districts will have significantly greater powers than the current area committees. The latter are consultative or advisory arrangements. They do not have statutory or decision making powers, whereas municipal districts will have such powers. The member will decide a range of important matters at district level and will have full powers in this regard. They will generally decide matters without reference to the county council, subject to consistency with overall policy, for example, the development plan.

Examples of matters to be dealt with at a district level also include policy and regulatory functions in areas such as planning, including local area plans; housing, for example, housing service plans; the annual programme for local roads; and traffic by-laws, for example, parking charges. In the environment, recreation and amenity areas matters such as litter management plans, by-laws and action to promote the interests of the community will be decided on at municipal level. With regard to relevant finance and governance matters, decisions on policy at district level will be the order of the day, requiring the manager and chief executive to act and levy certain charges. There will be representational oversight functions at district level, civic and ceremonial roles and citizen and community engagement and leadership. The action programme makes it clear that the initial reference point in determining functions for district level will be existing town council functions. Unless a function requires to be decided on the basis of county-wide implications, it should, in principle, be considered as suitable for decision within the municipal district jurisdiction. At the same time, administrative and operational aspects of the executive will be integrated at county level. The primary objective is to create a modern, effective, accountable and cohesive system of local government in which a range of important decisions will be made by elected members at sub-county level in structures that will apply across the entire territory of a county. The effect of this innovative approach which has received scant attention amidst all the noise about abolition will be to enhance significantly both democratic leadership and accountability, on the one hand, and operational efficiency, on the other, within a far more cohesive and integrated system that will reflect the realities of the 21st century rather than the 19th.

In support of sub-county restructuring, I established an independent statutory committee on 15 November 2012 to carry out a local electoral review, on which the new municipal districts will be based. Criteria and parameters for the new sub-county system are set out in the action programme and reflected also in the committee's terms of reference. The electoral review will also have a specific goal of achieving a better balance and consistency in representational ratios, while taking particular account of factors such as the location of towns and local identities in the new municipal governance arrangement.

Denis Landy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, unfortunately, the speech the Minister is reading is not the one that was circulated to us.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a point of order, but we will try to get to the bottom of the matter.

Denis Landy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise if I am mistaken. We are not reading the same speech.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator may be jumping the gun, but I note his comments. We will see what can be done.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise to Senators.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ar aghaidh leat.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope the real one includes some information for us.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope the content is useful.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope it will change.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It will not.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister to continue, without interruption.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The terms of reference for the review also contain the parameters that will determine the total number of seats on each council. These will take account of the significant population changes that have taken place since the current numbers were decided, while at the same time ensuring adequate numbers for effective representation and governance in lower population counties. It is worth noting, in particular, that the terms of reference include a system of weighting to provide additional members in counties with borough and town councils; that local electoral areas will be designed, as far as possible, around existing municipal towns and that local electoral areas will also generally be named accordingly. Therefore, the town will retain a prominent position within the new system of local governance.

Strengthening the role of local government is a fundamental aim of reform. The action programme provides for the assignment of some significant additional functions, some of which I have mentioned. It also includes the operation of the micro-enterprise support service; alignment of local and community development with local government; and an enhanced role for local government in economic development. A number of specific functions are identified for devolution from central government agencies to local government in areas such as tourism, rural transport, ports and the management of State property. In addition, local authorities will be given greater responsibility in a range of matters in which they are already involved but where there is scope to reduce the degree of central control.

Local government funding, accountability and governance will be strengthened in a number of ways. The action programme recognises the role of an equitable property tax. Government decisions were announced in the context of budget 2013 in relation to the introduction of a local property tax. While it will be administered by the Revenue Commissioners, it is a local property tax. Receipts will be going to local authorities and there will be discretion for them to increase or decrease the rate of tax, with effect from 1 January 2015 onwards. This element of local financial discretion is fundamental to the future development of a more independent, self-reliant and responsible local government system, an objective highlighted in the action programme.

A new system of local government oversight will be introduced, involving the establishment of a national oversight and audit commission, and aspects of the local government audit system will be strengthened.

An important aspect of the oversight process is that it will operate on an independent basis. There is, therefore, no question of it adding to control by Departments over local government, something we are keen to minimise as far as possible. The role and functions of the elected council will be increased and policy making structures reviewed. The local government ethics code will be strengthened and merged into a single national system and important changes will be made to the directive powers of councillors arising from certain recommendations of the Mahon tribunal. This involves excluding the use of powers under section 140 of the Local Government Act 2001 and decisions involving financial or other benefits for an individual or a specific organisation. It is absolutely appropriate, in a proper system of governance, that elected members should remain aloof from such individual decisions, while at the same time their leadership and policy making roles are being strengthened.

The programme incorporates a major efficiency agenda, based particularly on implementation of measures arising from the Local Government efficiency review. Significant savings will be achieved through efficiency measures and workforce planning in local authorities. There will be a more robust system of performance monitoring, with a focus on key indicators, outcomes rather than outputs, value for money and the comparative performance of authorities. Customer service arrangements in local authorities will be further enhanced, while ways of promoting greater community and citizen engagement with local government will be explored and local authorities required to provide better quality public information. All told, it is broadly estimated that the measures outlined in the programme will involve savings of more than ¤400 million per annum when all the reforms are in place. These will be enduring savings in the budgets of local authorities.

Concern has been expressed from some quarters that the proposed new arrangements will have implications for commercial rates income as a result of the differences between the annual rate of valuation in towns and counties. Town rates are lower than the relevant county level in around two thirds of cases. We have to ensure the harmonisation of rates does not lead to a significant net loss of revenue for authorities, while at the same time safeguarding against an increase in rates that would impact negatively on businesses and employment. Harmonisation of rate levels will be equalised gradually over a number of years. It is envisaged that the overall savings to be accrued from the reform agenda, coupled with the strengthening of the funding base for local authorities, through the introduction of the local property tax, will further reduce the burden of commercial rates on local business.

In relation to change in Dublin, the Government has decided that the introduction of an office of directly elected mayor, as has been suggested, should not take place without a more fundamental review of local governance generally in the area. The programme indicates, therefore, that a forum on local governance in Dublin should be convened and, based on these deliberations, proposals will be put in a plebiscite to be held in conjunction with the 2014 elections.

Implementation of the local government reform agenda will be challenging at local and national level. I have mentioned a number of specific structures that are in place to advance elements of the reform process, including electoral review, the merger in Waterford, local-community development alignment with local government, shared services and the local property tax. In line with proposals in the action programme, specific implementation advisory arrangements have also been established also relation to the reform of structures, functions and related matters, with a particular focus on reorganisation of sub-county local government, including detailed examination of specific technical aspects of reform.

Some local elected members view the reform programme with suspicion and cynicism. This perhaps is to be expected with any major programme of change. However, it is important to note that the views of elected members, as expressed in consultations with and submissions by the representative associations of local authority members, were taken into account in the preparation of the action programme for effective local government. I want to make it clear that I am willing to continue that consultation and constructive engagement with the representative associations in the implementation of these reforms.

An essential component of the action programme will be the development and enactment of legislation. Wide-ranging and detailed provisions will be necessary to provide for a range of measures, including mergers, new arrangements at sub-county and regional level, consequential amendments across a number of other legislative codes, and to allow for implementation of a number of new policy undertakings under the programme. The programme sets out more clearly than any previous Government policy document the rationale for strong local government and the logic for using it as the main vehicle of government and public service at local level.

As well as implementing significant changes from 2014 - sooner in some respects such as the enterprise function - the programme has a longer term objective of positioning the local government sector to continue to develop. By putting in place stronger structures, functions, resources, governance and operational arrangements, the reforms should enable the local government sector to play a much wider and more effective role, with the possibility of taking on a broader range of functions of the sort local authorities perform in other European countries.

All of this will not happen overnight, but the measures in the reform programme, including the implementation of a secure and sustainable system of local funding, will greatly increase public interest, engagement, confidence and credibility in local government, setting out a realistic and progressive pathway to the more far-reaching development of local government, and building on the enhancement of the local government role in the shorter term.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the Chamber to discuss a topic that is generally under-discussed in the Houses of the Oireachtas, namely, the roles of local government, councillors and councils. Local authorities certainly comprise the point of democracy closest to the citizen. While local government was funded from a central resource for many years, it was such that the functions of local authority members might have been under-utilised. The powers given to local authority members under legislation were not what they should have been. Therefore, everyone was waiting for the reform of local government, which was promised prior to the last general election. It was much anticipated by all local authority members, including town council members. Town councillors constitute the point of democracy closest to the citizen. Unfortunately, my reading of the local government reforms is not entirely in keeping with that outlined by the Minister. Powers are being removed from local authorities and their members. There is a cost-cutting exercise, and the point of democracy closest to the citizen is being moved away from him or her. This cannot be welcomed.

Let us consider the disempowerment of citizens in towns over the past 18 months during the Minister's watch. The Minister outlined that he is giving local authorities the autonomy to collect money locally and make their own decisions on spending it, but he did not say that he has actually removed the local government fund since he became Minister. The local government fund is a central taxpayer fund for local government. The Minister has asked local authorities to collect septic tank registration charges, household charges and property taxes, which are about to be introduced. He is in the process of further removing power from local authorities by setting up a new quango called Irish Water and removing the water services function from the closest points of contact to the water user, namely, local authorities.

The removal of town councils must not be and is not being welcomed throughout the country. In Letterkenny in County Donegal yesterday, I noticed a number of people on the streets. Citizens are really only becoming aware of what is happening in regard to the removal of town councils. Town councils are the most efficient, and arguably the most effective, government structure in the country. They constitute the decision-making point closest to the people. Town councillors are not working for vast sums of money but for very minimal sums, and they are working very long hours. We all know town councillors, of all political parties and none, who are effectively giving of their time voluntarily. Eighty town councils and over 700 town councillors are being removed from the equation. Existing town councillors may not run for election again or may not be re-elected. The people will lose the opportunity to elect a town council after the next election.

Local authorities have been disenfranchised further through major cuts, including the removal of the local improvement scheme grant. The latter was available down through the years, during good times and bad, to help elderly people and farming communities to fix the roads leading to their houses.

That scheme is gone. Local authorities have cut funding for housing grants for elderly and disabled people. Local authorities, including my own in Donegal, are not in a position to let local authority housing. They cannot comply with BER certification requirements and upgrade the houses because they are not getting the funding. There are at least 100,000 people waiting on local authority housing. Many local authority houses are lying empty and cannot be let. I know of one estate in my constituency where the windows of nine local authority houses are boarded up. It is turning into a ghetto because the local authority cannot undertake the work required for BER certification. It has applied to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government but no funding is forthcoming. That is not renewing or incentivising local government.

We must be frank here. The energy and the money are being removed from local government. We are coming up with a new plan, which is really a cost cutting exercise, but we are supposed to be putting the people first. How the hell are we putting the people first if we are removing democracy from the closest point of contact? The Minister is providing additional county councillors but he is removing the people who deliver democracy at the closest point to the citizen. He is depriving towns with rateable functions from keeping rates to develop them. If we look at the western seaboard, Sligo and Letterkenny are two of the main towns in the north west, but they will suffer. Letterkenny will suffer greatly from the removal of the town council which has served it well down through the years. It was in a position to borrow money to develop the Aura leisure centre and so on. That will all be lost under the proposals being brought forward by the Minister.

This is disguised as giving additional powers to local authorities. The Minister said the county enterprise board function will be subsumed into the local authority structure. That is true and it is in the document but it is not the right thing to do because local authority members, including county managers in most counties, already sit on the boards of the county enterprise boards. Funding for county enterprise boards is stand-alone - in other words, projects can make applications and obtain funding. We will now amalgamate them with local authorities.

Leader funding, which is available through the Minister's Department to community groups and businesses, has been under-utilised because the conditions are too stringent and the grants cannot be drawn down. The Minister proposes to bring all the local partnership companies under the auspices of the local authorities. Again, local authority members sit on those boards. There has been a total of lack of discussion with the partnership companies, which are doing excellent work, and that needs to be clarified. Why is the Department refusing to talk to workers or to SIPTU in regard to the alignment with the local authorities? Do these workers, who have provided a service over the past 20 years under the Leader programme, not deserve to be consulted with? They have no pay scale and their money has been cut year on year. Why are they being brought under auspices of the local authorities? Instead of funding local authorities properly, the Minister is using the Leader programme to bolster local authorities. If we are serious about providing local democracy and decentralising power, we have to fund local authorities properly.

I refer to another local authority function, namely, the septic tank registration system. The telephone lines in Donegal County Council have been hopping over the past couple of weeks. Officials are unable to answer a basic question. If people register, what are the standards? The Minister has not published the standards and ¤50 is being requested. Will he consider extending the deadline for two or three months and publishing the standards in the meantime? He should be clear so that people know they are not buying a pig in a poke and that they can register when they know what the standards will be. Would the Minister to do that because it is the sensible thing to do and it is being frank with the people?

One year after the legislation was brought in by the Oireachtas I cannot understand the reason the inspection plan was not published. We were fined by Europe as a result of that. Second-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why were we fined by Europe?

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Senator Keane.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We were fined by Europe because of the incompetence of the Minister and his officials.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Ó Domhnaill, you are over time.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I read the judgment and it was very clear. Extend the deadline.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the House for this good debate on local government, which is an important feature of this House. As spokesperson on local government I am delighted to have the opportunity to debate the issue today. Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill appears to have read a different report from the one I read. The kindest thing I could say is that perhaps he read it backwards. We spoke about negativity and positivity in the House-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tell the truth.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Keane without interruption.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If he would speak the truth and read the report that would be welcome.

I welcome the report. As we are aware, the action programme Putting People First was launched by the Minister, Deputy Hogan, in October and it will bring about the most fundamental improvements to our local government system in many years.

The programme represents a radical reform plan that will bring local government into the 21st century. This new programme will bring about the necessary reforms designed to increase efficiencies of local government - I did not hear the word "efficiencies" mentioned earlier. We do not want many offices located around the place but efficient local government that will ensure taxpayers' money is translated into the services people expect and deserve in their local areas. It is also in keeping with the commitments in the programme for Government to deliver local services efficiently, cost effectively and democratically.

The vision in the report, and it is my vision, is of a system of local government based on strong local democracy, community spirit and citizen empowerment allied to effective and cost efficient service delivery.

In pursuit of reform over the years we have seen an agenda of reductionism in local government as opposed to real reform. We have had tinkering with local government and to date no real attempt has been made to reform it. We now have reform. We have seen powers and functions removed from local authorities, and I did not hear Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill say anything about that. In the years I sat on the council I did not see any reform; I saw only powers being removed. In this programme power is being given back at district and more local level.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Money is being taken out.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Certain functions are best administered centrally but central Government is not best equipped to grasp the conditions in each locality. It is preferable for local government to carry out that job because locally elected institutions employing their own specialist staff are better placed to understand and interpret the conditions and needs of the municipality and the district. This will happen with the water issue. Does Senator Ó Domhnaill want 39 different water authorities? Do we need 39 offices throughout the country dealing with water services? What we need are the local council people who have the expertise in water services, and that will not be changed.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Privatisation of a natural resource.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No interruptions please.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People want clean water from their taps but they do not need to have 40 people turning on that tap.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did the Senator ever hear of eircom?

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They want the service delivered locally.

The over-centralisation of government here is inefficient and fundamentally incompatible with a healthy Republic. This programme is delivering more powers at district level. The Senators should check it out and they will see what is changing. Devolving it from the county council down to the district level is devolution of function from council to district-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Centralisation.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Keane without interruption please.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am long enough on local councils to remember that over 20 years ago, when the Senator was there, the Barrington report recommended a system of district-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was in school at the time.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator was in school but his party was there.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Keane without interruption.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Barrington report recommended district council level delivery, and that is what the Minister is doing now with a district and municipal system. That is part of the reform programme the Government is to undertake, which the Minister outlined. That will address weaknesses associated with inconsistencies of structure, inequality of representation and fragmentation and duplication throughout the county between town and county councils. One only has to see the duplication that has happened in any town and county. Where there is more than one principal town in a district how will the name of the district be chosen? That might be too detailed a question but it will probably be up to the local district. If the Minister has any further information on that it would be welcome but the functions that will be devolved from the council, and the Senator should check them out, will bring local democracy closer to the people.

In the system in Ireland some voters in a county have votes in towns. I sat on a council in Dublin which has a huge population but no urban council. This is now being corrected and the Minister is looking at the issue. He has mentioned the reduction in the number of councillors which must be seen in the context of dual participation. The ratios in representation have varied from one councillor for 1,400 constituents to one councillor for 8,398 on the council on which I sat in Dublin. This is dividing it out, looking at the whole country at district level. In Dublin, however, there is not going to be a district level. This is a special case because of the review that took place. It will be an issue decided locally in the Dublin area. Ireland is unique in Europe where town councils are very much the exception and municipal level districts are the norm. I understand from the report that cities will remain. I read in the report - the Minister might respond on this point - that mayoral status at municipal district level and in towns with a population over 20,000 will remain. This may mean too many mayors and not enough chairpersons in a county. Perhaps the Minister might comment on the issue of mayors versus chairpersons.

The Minister has mentioned - this is welcome - that there is scope for further extension of reserved functions of elected members. He has asked each Department to come up with proposals in this regard, to which I look forward. He is serious about the devolution of functions, as he has stated regarding local delivery, local responsibility and local democracy. He has answered a question I was going to ask on directly elected mayors.

I note the ACC and AMAI amalgamation. It is important that they are represented on any body which represents local authorities and that their input is maintained at every level.

The burden on councillors is much greater than it was 20 years ago when I was first elected. I ask the Minister if anyone has conducted a review of the hours spent on local authority work. I am all for local democracy and participatory budgeting, but they take time for councillors. While we all welcome the concept of voluntarism, we must consider that someone may have to pay for child care to sit on a council. Men have to pay for child care as well as women. It is not only a woman's issue. One does not want to have a situation where everyone does it voluntarily. It is no longer a voluntary job. People put a great deal of time into it. The report states the incentive to have high quality representation is important. I agree.

I refer to the community alignment plan for SECs in each county and joint participation by the community and voluntary sector. Senator Darragh O'Brien missed totally the extra powers being provided for the local and community voluntary sector in the SEC context. They will be there with local councillors to discuss local issues and their input is valuable. I recommend that SECs and the five-year city and county local development plans have local and community input. I hope this is included in the report. A national policy on the issue of devolution with local and community involvement is to be launched before the 2014 elections. I ask the Minister if it is on track.

The primacy and policy responsibility of local councillors are being strengthened vis-à-vischief executives and county managers. The Minister said there would be some support to ensure councillors could devise policy with chief executives and county managers. I will put specific questions to him later on that issue.

The report indicates that the national oversight and audit committee is to be integrated at some stage with the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Given that the committee is overseen by local authority members, it is important that it include some representatives of their national representative bodies.

I cannot sit down without complimenting the Minister on the major reform that he has made in the anti-corruption measures, the political funding process, and the gender quotas, all of which are changing politics.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the House. While the document concentrates on economies on the side of elected representatives, I am mindful of the McLoughlin report and the efficiencies that are needed in the permanent government of the local authorities which it was judged would make possible savings of ¤511 million. On the last page of the Minister's report he cites ¤400 million. Is that ¤400 million in addition to the ¤511 million and can we look forward to a saving of ¤900 million or, at the most pessimistic interpretation, did approximately 20% of McLoughlin's recommendation disappear and did ¤511 million become ¤400 million? It is important that we do both if we can. The permanent government, that is, the senior civil service, has not borne its share of responsibility for what happened to this country between 2008 and 2010. The elected Government did and in the Lower House was reduced from 85 seats to 19 but they were not the only people responsible for what happened to the country. I worry sometimes that the same senior civil servants are advising this Government as advised the last. We must face up to the problems of the permanent government. It was not fit for purpose or adequate to its task.

Progress reports on the McLoughlin report should be submitted to this House. Reducing the Dáil by eight seats and doing away with some small local authorities does not tackle the problem that the whole edifice of government collapsed between 2008 and 2010 and a major task of this Government is to restore its credibility. The Watson criticism of the Department of Finance in particular, asks whether there were people there with enough qualifications. Do we have a modern government structure at the permanent level? One hears criticisms up and down the country that there are too many directors of services. McLoughlin said that there are ten surplus county managers, 50 surplus directors of services, that 170 should go from corporate joint administrative units, 50 from the other corporate sector, 225 middle management and senior replacement, 62 from the HR payroll and 15% of senior managers in Dublin and Cork. It is important that the House knows what the impact of those reductions would be and what progress we are making.

At the Kenmare conference a couple of years ago the county manager for Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, Owen Keegan, estimated that 1,778 management positions should go. He may have left out a category so that it could have been approximately 2,000. These are extremely highly paid posts. One of the criticisms made by the troika is that administrators at the top level in Ireland earn more than their opposite numbers in the countries with which we are trying to compete and indeed in the countries which we are trying to get to rescue us. Is there a need for a reverse benchmarking exercise?

We should implement the reform also on the administrative side because that is the permanent pensionable burden that remains. Does getting rid of some councillors, reducing the number from some hundreds to 62, apart from some travel expenses for going to meetings, really get the Minister the kind of reductions that implementing big reductions in corporate service staff and directors of services and getting rid of ten county managers would achieve? There is a belief outside the Houses that the reforms in the permanent government at local and national levels must take place if we ever leave the rescue plans and try to develop this economy. The permanent bureaucracy has to contribute to that.

The health sector, which grew out of local government, was very heavily criticised in the last EU review, published ten days ago, for its high cost base. Sheltered services sectors such as government and the professional services detract from our ability to operate internationally and to generate jobs and get unemployment down from 14% to the level of 4.8% which we had before. It is important that we see what is happening in permanent government but we should also consider local government level as well. What savings will there be from the transfer of many functions from local authorities to other agencies? There must be genuine savings. As the Minister is aware, fears have also been expressed that with early retirement programmes, which have been mooted again, what one gains on the swings one loses on the roundabouts. This has come up in discussion on the much-enhanced pensions Bill. Is local government being slimmed down at managerial level? One effect of the moratorium was that the numbers of outdoor staff went down far more rapidly than the number of people in management offices and this was not a welcome development. The number of outdoor staff went down by 13%, the number of directors went down by 7%, the number of clerical and administrative staff went down by 4% and the number of professional and technical staff went down by 3.7%. I have seen an illustration depicting a number of managers looking at a man digging a hole. They say they need to cut back and decide to sack the man who is actually doing some work and digging the hole. There is concern that there has been too much managerialism and too much growth of bureaucracy at local government level. I would be interested to hear from the Minister in his reply on the progress his is making in this area, because it may be more important than getting rid of small numbers of local councillors throughout the country.

Denis Landy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Generally speaking and as a norm I fundamentally disagree with Senator Barrett, but today I find myself in agreement with most of what he has said. I welcome the Minister to House and I welcome the update he has given us on local government reform. I also acknowledge the presence of the president of the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland, AMAI, Councillor Willie Callaghan, and his colleague, Councillor Mark Dalton, in the Visitors Gallery today.

After much deliberation and consultation with members of the AMAI and local politicians throughout the country since 16 October 2012 I have come to the conclusion that the Putting People First document is based more on reductions in the number of councillors and less on the radical reform that we were promised. We all know that strong local government should play a vital part in a functioning democracy, a democracy that strives to represent the public interest at all times. The proposed reduction in the number of elected representatives throughout the country and the abolition of town councils needs reassessment. What we need, and what councillors throughout the country are calling for, is a re-balancing to ensure that this once in a lifetime opportunity to reform local government is not wasted and that this does not amount to reductionism sold as the upgrading of local government.

I have been contacted by town councillors across the political spectrum since the launch of the document in October 2012. They have all said the same thing, that it will be impossible for many small towns throughout the country to elect any councillor or for any small party to fly its party's flag if the current proposals go ahead in the present format. I have stated in the past that if we really wish to reform local government then we should curb the powers of county managers, who merely use councillors as rubber stamps.

The current system needs to be reformed. I acknowledge and support reform but it should not be another opportunity for reductionism. I have stated previously on the record of the House that I believe the Minister has at heart the desire to reform local government. However, currently there is not enough clarification in the Putting People First document on the amount of new powers that will be provided to councils. I have received telephone calls from local representatives asking what new powers will be transferred to them and the issue needs clarity.

Departments need to be prepared to let go of powers and to enhance and embrace the concept of local government reform that the Minister is putting forward. There is also a serious deficit of information with regard to whether the new municipal councils will indeed have the their own financial autonomy. Will they simply be looking to another paymaster, that is to say, instead of central government the county council, from which they will be provided with money to provide local services?

The cost of running town councils and local government generally has been greatly exaggerated in many quarters in order to build public support for slashing and burning local democracy. As far as I can see, this has not worked. The people I have been talking to from all walks of life in my own constituency appreciate the service town councillors provide for the small remuneration they receive, considering their responsibilities. In Killarney, for example, a town councillor receives a representational payment of ¤85 per week and is responsible and accountable for a budget of more than ¤13 million annually. To date there has not been any constructive engagement between the Department's mainstream staff and staff in local development companies. The Department has refused to talk with staff or their unions regarding the new policy of the alignment of the development companies with the local authorities. This issue must be addressed as a matter of urgency, as has already been alluded to by Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill.

All of these issues need clarity and trying to rush this legislation through in 100 days is not in the best interests of the country. This is certainly not the package of local government reforms for which we have waited 100 years. The Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland, AMAI, as the overarching body for town and borough councils, celebrated its 100th anniversary last year. During that time, the association has overseen many changes in life in general in Ireland. I have been involved with the AMAI for over 20 years and have seen the importance of the organisation in working with its membership to ensure the best result is achieved in local government reform. I welcome the comments of the Minister on "Morning Ireland" last week when he spoke of his willingness to work with the AMAI and the Association of County and City Councils, ACCC, to move this issue forward and of the need for unity within councils and between councillors. I note and welcome the Minister's reference again today to engagement with these organisations.

The Minister has proved to be a pragmatic politician throughout his career. He has taken concerns expressed by people in rural Ireland very seriously and for that I commend him. He reduced the charges for septic tank registration and made provision for a grant system for upgrades where they are required. A proposal to reduce the provision of senior citizen alarms was reversed by the Minister last week. On both issues the Minister acted pragmatically and with conviction. I am now calling on him to show the same concern and pragmatism on this issue and to allow this process to run at a workable pace. To expect submissions to be made to the local boundary committee by 25 January, to proceed to a full report by May and then, on foot of this, to draft legislation to change a century of local government before the summer recess is both impractical and unachievable. The consequence of trying to adhere to this tight deadline will be that councillors and candidates across the country will see their electoral areas change by up to 40 miles in any direction but they will still be expected to contest an election with, at best, a run in of only seven or eight months.

On foot of all I have outlined, I ask the Minister to ensure that any legislation passed will not affect the boundaries for the next local elections. This will allow sitting councillors and potential candidates to have an adequate adjustment period, in line with that provided to Dáil candidates contesting general elections. I ask the Minister to consider this proposal so that we get it right from day one and reform local government without diminishing its role, particularly at the lowest practicable level and we remain in line with the European Charter of Local Self-Government which we signed in 1997. I would argue that the establishment of the boundary committee and the proposed abolition of town councils disregards Article 5 of the aforementioned charter. I ask the Minister to address my concerns and those of councillors across the country. The spirit of togetherness that exists within local councils and the desire to get the right outcome for democracy is real. I urge the Minister to engage with the councils in order to achieve a satisfactory outcome for all democrats on this island.

It is real and I urge the Minister to engage with it in order to achieve a satisfactory outcome for all democrats on this island.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister and share the view that he is a reformer who, as someone who came from the local authority system, knows the various structures intimately. However, even a cursory reading of the excellent briefing document prepared by the Oireachtas Library and Research Service would give pause for thought and, I am sure, some concern on the part of the Minister. It conducted a detailed analysis of the reform proposals of this and previous Governments and found:

Irish local government is considered to be weak on all variables in spite of reforms implemented in the 1990s. Irish local government is characterised by unequal representation and inconsistent structures that reduce its democratic legitimacy. Further, it is dominated by central government, has few financial resources, a limited range of functions, and elected councillors dominated by the non-elected manager.

When the new municipal districts are taken as the unit of local government, the level of representation compares poorly to other countries. While Ireland would appear to compare favourably with Denmark, greater numbers of councillors means that the ratio of population to councillor is 1:1,200 in Denmark compared with 1:4,212 at best in Ireland. Further, the 98 Danish municipal councils are powerful in terms of functions and financial autonomy.

With the exception of the expansion of its role in economic and community development, its remit will remain broadly the same. Given the Government?s recent establishment of Water Ireland, it is possible to argue that the pattern of centralisation is continuing.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator has been wrongly informed.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

According to the information provided to me it is investigating the serious implications of any attempt to change the criteria unless it is acceptable in Europe.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator was not briefed properly.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister is aware that Leader funds come from Europe and that Europe initiated this concept. I would be more than happy to hear a clarification from the Minister because he is obviously more aware of the facts. I am merely pointing out that concerns have been expressed. As somebody who served as a councillor on the old partnership boards I genuinely believe they are doing a valuable job with their a bottom-up approach. I am not making a political point when I say I do not believe there will be the same level of efficiency or the direct involvement the boards enjoy with local communities and individuals once they go into this socio-economic committee grouping.

I also wish to raise the issue of the amalgamation of Waterford city and county councils, which is important. To be fair, one can argue the merits of amalgamations and mergers and it then comes down to an issue of balance. One has to ask oneself, on balance, whether it is a good or bad thing to merge the local authorities in question. I genuinely believe that, on balance, it is bad to merge Waterford city and county councils.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who provides the balance?

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The hook that the Minister is trying to hang this merger on is, again, as he puts it, saving money. Let us throw away the heritage of Waterford City Council to save a few bob. Let us undermine the gateway status of Waterford city to save a few bob.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not doing that.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us undermine the ability of the people of Waterford and the democratically elected members of Waterford city and county councils to manage their own affairs and to drive the development of Waterford city. Let us undermine that to save a few euro. That is what this is about.

The management of Waterford City Council is on record as saying it does not believe the savings in the Minister's document are achievable.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I disagree.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is their view. The Minister has not spelled out to anybody exactly how those savings are going to be made. He plucked figures from the air because he wants to sell this as saving money, but money will not be saved. What he is doing is making it more difficult for the people of Waterford city and county to be able to drive forward the ability of Waterford city to develop, which is wrong.

I do not believe the Minister's reforms go far enough. The one thing local government does not have and the one thing central government has never given local government, is real power and real responsibility. The Minister had a once in a lifetime opportunity to really reform local government but he went for the soft options, prompted by the troika, to slash and burn and to cut numbers. However, he has not given any real powers and he has not dealt with any of the real poisoned chalices which exist in the system in terms of how local government and services are delivered. He has not changed any of them.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What are they?

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have spelled out what they are. They are the inability of many local authorities to provide the services they need because they do not have the funding and because many of the services are disjointed.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator should conclude.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will finish on this point. The Minister had this big opportunity to reform local government and he flunked it. I would genuinely ask him to re-examine the merger of Waterford city and county councils but also to re-examine his overall reform of local government. I believe he will get the support of all parties and the people of this State if he is the first reforming Minister to give local government what it needs, namely, real power and real responsibility.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the House. I appreciate he is trying to bring about reform and that reform is necessary across all government sectors, as well as efficiency and cost effectiveness. However, I must say that the total abolition of town councils is a retrograde step. Town councils do a lot of work promoting the towns under their jurisdiction. While I appreciate that smaller towns do not have a dedicated council, they might have been better served if we had extended the service of the existing town councils to also cover smaller towns.

As I have already said, the amount of work the councils do is enormous. Like Senator Landy, I will take Killarney as an example, because that is the town I know best and I know the town council there is working in the best possible way to promote and run the town. The Minister knows, when a town mayor goes abroad, of the amount of status placed on that by the countries being visited. Given the amount of tourism Killarney Town Council has generated by twinning and by visiting countries abroad to promote the town, the cost laid out has been returned tenfold. Moreover, while I am only speaking about Killarney, I am sure this happens all over the country with all town councils.

Despite the publicity it got today, more than one thing happened at yesterday's meeting of Kerry County Council. One issue was that maps were given to the councillors to show them what the new council areas would look like. I can assure the Minister they are vast and frightening. One of the proposals is for an area running from Dingle to Tuosist, Kenmare, which is a 100 mile trip. This is ludicrous. I cannot see the councillors-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not see how that is out already without an electoral commission.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Moloney, without interruption.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold on. Perhaps if it had been put to the people, just like the abolition of the Seanad is being put to the people, the Minister might have got a different answer on the abolition of town councils.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am talking about boundaries.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The boundaries were proposed and put to the councillors with three options. I have a funny feeling this is a fait accompli and the options are just being shown to them because the councillors were given them yesterday and were told to report back by tomorrow afternoon. That is the amount of time they got to consider the proposals.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister should not engage directly with the Senator because he is upsetting her train of thought.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He has pulled me down that road with his thinking.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister's interventions are very significant.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Moloney has just two minutes left.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My time is running out. Town councillors are paid a very modest amount. If we want to make Oireachtas Members work properly on legislation and get away from filling potholes and obtaining medical cards, we should give more power to the councillors on the ground. We should build them up and we could then have many fewer TDs and Senators because the work on the ground will be done by the councillors.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We should stop reducing the number of councillors, give them more power and make them more responsible.

On the question of the alignment of partnerships and councils, I sat on the boards of two partnerships and I can say they are the best run, most efficient and most accountable organisations in this country. I feel that aligning them to the councils will be another retrograde step because the powers will lie entirely with the local authorities. The Minister in his speech said, "I want to make it clear that I am willing to continue that consultation and constructive engagement with the representative associations in the implementation of these reforms." That does not explain why the Department is refusing to meet with the union officials who represent staff in the partnerships. The Minister might give us some indication of whether he envisages that jobs will be lost with this alignment and, if so, how many he envisages will me lost.

To be fair to the Minister, and I will not take from him, he is a Minister of reform and he did bring in the gender quotas. However, there are many women who would love to be in politics but find it impossible because they have young children or because they are newly-married and are planning a family. There is no such thing as maternity leave or crèches for councillors. The Minister should look at this issue when he is undertaking reform.

I strongly urge the Minister to revisit the idea of totally abolishing town councils because they are invaluable to the towns. I spent time on a county council and I can categorically say that not once did I get a representation from the people regarding a town council issue, although Killarney is a town with a large population. I might have got medical card, social welfare or school grant issues but I never got a town council issue because the people went directly to their town councillors, who dealt with the matter. They ran the town efficiently. I ask the Minister to go back and rethink that part of his reform.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister back to the House. He is a Minister who gives great value when he comes here because he is prepared to engage and spar with us.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It brings life to the debate whereas many debates are just set pieces where the Minister says A, we say B and out the door with us.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They need a bit of life.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As long as the Minister is prepared to do that, we will certainly accept and welcome it.

I will not make a long speech as I have spoken on this on a number of occasions on the Order of Business, on Second Stage debates and so on. However, I am stunned that the Minister had the ability and courage to be able to drive through the abolition of town councils against such ferocious opposition from his own party benches, as is evident here. Where were these voices when the parliamentary party meetings were taking place and when Cabinet was discussing this issue? We were here roaring on the changes and it seemed to be all hunky-dory.

In my opinion, it will be dominated by the very people about whom everybody here has been talking. The impression I have is that there is a surplus of corporate governance in our local authority system.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The system is dominated by democratically-elected people.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are known as "local councillors".

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The permanent government at local authority level will admit that it does not have the expertise-----

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If one is looking for local elected people and local democracy, that is what one is going to get.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Mooney, without interruption.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They do not have that expertise.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator's time is up.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why is the Minister dismantling something that is not broken? I know the question of money is involved here, but surely more consideration has to be given to the matter.

I would like to ask a final question. I thank the Chair for his indulgence. Has the Minister consulted the various Departments for which the local development companies administer numerous programmes? If he has been in contact with, for example, the Departments of Social Protection, Health, Transport, Tourism and Sport, and Education and Skills, what sort of reaction has he been getting from them?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A very good reaction.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are they more or less acquiescing in this? Do they believe the Minister's proposals are in their best interests?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has been very positive.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Mooney, tá an t-am istigh.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will be returning to this. I hope I have tried to make the point that the commitment the local development companies have been giving at local community level - there are local authority representatives on these bodies - shows that the system is working well and should be left alone.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister. I would like to wish the Leas-Chathaoirleach and the Minister a happy new year. I would like to make three points. The aim of this debate should be to ensure we end up with the best possible system of local government in the future. Some of the things I intend to say might not be exactly what the Minister would like to hear.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How does the Senator know that?

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I say that just in case, and on the basis of the reaction I have heard already. I have worked with Leader. I value Leader. I think it is doing a great job. A number of things need to happen if we are to merge Leader into the councils. When the health boards were merged into the HSE, we got a dinosaur and a monster that did not work. We are probably about to have that again, unless we are really careful. I am setting out what I think will happen. I am doing so for the good of the Minister. As Senator Landy said, he has a practical head. I know he will take this in and work it out. Leader is doing a fantastic job. I have seen the wonderful community development work it has done on playgrounds, pitches and local enterprise initiatives. All of it has been done for the good of communities. The enterprise boards are also doing some very good work. The Minister knows what happened with a Leader company in my county. There were difficulties with how it managed its books, etc.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Senator saying she knows of one county in which that has happened?

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Healy Eames, without interruption, please.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold on. What I am trying to say is-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, only one county.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I remind the House that many Senators are waiting to speak and not much time is remaining.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to speak because I have two or three points to make.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Senators to give Senator Healy Eames an opportunity to continue.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am trying to say that the difficulties in question would not have needed to develop if the right governance, the right controls and the right monitoring had been provided for. I am talking about the Leader company that messed up. If the Minister decides to continue with the process of merging Leader into the councils, he needs to bear in mind that such a big change cannot be delivered unless the Department engages with the workers on the ground. According to the most recent feedback I have received, the Department is refusing to talk to workers about the alignment with the local authorities. I put it to the Minister that this is what is happening on the ground. I know he will fix it. I am just telling him about the feedback I have received in the last two days. I think it is a valid point. We do not want a new middle management layer in the councils. That is what we got in the HSE and it led to public waste. We can do very little about it now.

As someone who used to run a small business with six employees, I am deeply concerned about the possibility that the councils will be responsible for enterprise. I have genuine fears in that regard because of the culture in the councils. Everybody knows that when one rings a council office, much of the time the officials there do not pay any heed to the public. One has to go through one's public representative to get rubbish picked up or potholes filled. That is wrong. If we are going to put enterprise into the councils, we have to change the culture in the councils completely. The first thing we must do is ensure the councils are responsive. We can ask Senator Quinn, who is not here, about how customers should be treated. It is certainly different. I accept that the councils are under incredible pressure as they try to do all the tasks they are charged with doing. My fears are based on a combination of the huge strain on councils and their lack of responsiveness.

My final point is that government, at every level, is too fat and too big. Even with the changes that are being made, the Dáil is too big - probably by 60 Deputies, the Seanad is too big and local government is too big. I know it might not be popular to say that. The truth is that as long as our system of government is so big, we will continue to compete with each other instead of serving the public. I was very impressed by the abortion hearings that were held in this Chamber. We heard from people with expertise who are doing the job. It was not politicised. I know I am in the business of politics. Ultimately, I came into politics to serve the public. If we want better local government reform, we should streamline it in a way that will serve the public better. That applies to the development companies, to enterprise and to democracy.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, I want to inform the House that incorrect information has been given. I chaired a meeting of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a point of order.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You can make it another time.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let the record stand incorrectly then.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am ruling it out. I am not allowing it.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did meet the community on behalf of the Government and it was passed onto the Government as well.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the House. I wish him a happy new year. I hope 2013 is a better year for the Minister politically than 2012 was-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was a very good year. I made many decisions.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----given the mess he made of so many issues last year.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not fair. Give the man a chance. Come on. That is out of order.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is out of order?

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is ridiculous. We are trying to fix things here.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will get to what the Minister is trying to do. Many people have a fundamentally different view from that of the Minister on how things should be fixed. Perhaps Senator Healy Eames should listen for a change. The first thing we need to do is establish the principles that should underpin local government and guide us as we consider how we can reform local government. I suggest that local government should be underpinned by the principles of accountability, transparency, relevancy, democracy and subsidiarity. Crucially, local government is about the provision of services. We need to make sure services are delivered to citizens as closely as possible to them. We must secure the best value and provide the best quality when we are organising the delivery of services.

Senator Keane made a factual statement when she said previous Governments tinkered around the edges when they tried to reform local government. I have to agree with that. However, the Senator cannot say with any clear conscience that the Minister's proposals constitute any more than tinkering around the edges. That is exactly what is happening. I do not believe any real or substantial changes are proposed. I agree with Senator Landy that this is all about subtraction. It is really about reducing numbers. The numbers of councils, councillors and Deputies are all being reduced. The abolition of the Seanad is to be proposed. That is the core of the Minister's reform agenda. He does not intend to give power to local government or to local councillors. Up to now, he has certainly not spelled out how he will do that.

I make no apologies for saying that the Minister has made an absolute mess of the funding of local government. People will end up paying separate charges for school transport, school books, waste collection, water and the property tax. There is no joined-up thinking in the introduction of all these separate charges.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People will have to pay for services.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They will receive fewer services.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator's party is against service charges.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am certainly against unfair and regressive service charges. I am glad the Minister recognises that. He should be introducing progressive charges and progressive taxation. In such circumstances, the Minister will receive the support of Sinn Féin.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator's party is against them other than in Northern Ireland, where it is in favour of them.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am very touched by the Minister's concern for citizens in Northern Ireland.

I also wish to raise the issue of the amalgamation of Waterford city and county councils, which is important. To be fair, one can argue the merits of amalgamations and mergers and it then comes down to an issue of balance. One has to ask oneself, on balance, whether it is a good or bad thing to merge the local authorities in question. I genuinely believe that, on balance, it is bad to merge Waterford city and county councils.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who provides the balance?

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The hook that the Minister is trying to hang this merger on is, again, as he puts it, saving money. Let us throw away the heritage of Waterford City Council to save a few bob. Let us undermine the gateway status of Waterford city to save a few bob.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not doing that.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us undermine the ability of the people of Waterford and the democratically elected members of Waterford city and county councils to manage their own affairs and to drive the development of Waterford city. Let us undermine that to save a few euro. That is what this is about.

The management of Waterford City Council is on record as saying it does not believe the savings in the Minister's document are achievable.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I disagree.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is their view. The Minister has not spelled out to anybody exactly how those savings are going to be made. He plucked figures from the air because he wants to sell this as saving money, but money will not be saved. What he is doing is making it more difficult for the people of Waterford city and county to be able to drive forward the ability of Waterford city to develop, which is wrong.

I do not believe the Minister's reforms go far enough. The one thing local government does not have and the one thing central government has never given local government, is real power and real responsibility. The Minister had a once in a lifetime opportunity to really reform local government but he went for the soft options, prompted by the troika, to slash and burn and to cut numbers. However, he has not given any real powers and he has not dealt with any of the real poisoned chalices which exist in the system in terms of how local government and services are delivered. He has not changed any of them.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What are they?

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have spelled out what they are. They are the inability of many local authorities to provide the services they need because they do not have the funding and because many of the services are disjointed.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator should conclude.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will finish on this point. The Minister had this big opportunity to reform local government and he flunked it. I would genuinely ask him to re-examine the merger of Waterford city and county councils but also to re-examine his overall reform of local government. I believe he will get the support of all parties and the people of this State if he is the first reforming Minister to give local government what it needs, namely, real power and real responsibility.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the House. I appreciate he is trying to bring about reform and that reform is necessary across all government sectors, as well as efficiency and cost effectiveness. However, I must say that the total abolition of town councils is a retrograde step. Town councils do a lot of work promoting the towns under their jurisdiction. While I appreciate that smaller towns do not have a dedicated council, they might have been better served if we had extended the service of the existing town councils to also cover smaller towns.

As I have already said, the amount of work the councils do is enormous. Like Senator Landy, I will take Killarney as an example, because that is the town I know best and I know the town council there is working in the best possible way to promote and run the town. The Minister knows, when a town mayor goes abroad, of the amount of status placed on that by the countries being visited. Given the amount of tourism Killarney Town Council has generated by twinning and by visiting countries abroad to promote the town, the cost laid out has been returned tenfold. Moreover, while I am only speaking about Killarney, I am sure this happens all over the country with all town councils.

Despite the publicity it got today, more than one thing happened at yesterday's meeting of Kerry County Council. One issue was that maps were given to the councillors to show them what the new council areas would look like. I can assure the Minister they are vast and frightening. One of the proposals is for an area running from Dingle to Tuosist, Kenmare, which is a 100 mile trip. This is ludicrous. I cannot see the councillors-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not see how that is out already without an electoral commission.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Moloney, without interruption.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold on. Perhaps if it had been put to the people, just like the abolition of the Seanad is being put to the people, the Minister might have got a different answer on the abolition of town councils.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am talking about boundaries.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The boundaries were proposed and put to the councillors with three options. I have a funny feeling this is a fait accompli and the options are just being shown to them because the councillors were given them yesterday and were told to report back by tomorrow afternoon. That is the amount of time they got to consider the proposals.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister should not engage directly with the Senator because he is upsetting her train of thought.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He has pulled me down that road with his thinking.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister's interventions are very significant.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Moloney has just two minutes left.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My time is running out. Town councillors are paid a very modest amount. If we want to make Oireachtas Members work properly on legislation and get away from filling potholes and obtaining medical cards, we should give more power to the councillors on the ground. We should build them up and we could then have many fewer TDs and Senators because the work on the ground will be done by the councillors.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We should stop reducing the number of councillors, give them more power and make them more responsible.

On the question of the alignment of partnerships and councils, I sat on the boards of two partnerships and I can say they are the best run, most efficient and most accountable organisations in this country. I feel that aligning them to the councils will be another retrograde step because the powers will lie entirely with the local authorities. The Minister in his speech said, "I want to make it clear that I am willing to continue that consultation and constructive engagement with the representative associations in the implementation of these reforms." That does not explain why the Department is refusing to meet with the union officials who represent staff in the partnerships. The Minister might give us some indication of whether he envisages that jobs will be lost with this alignment and, if so, how many he envisages will me lost.

To be fair to the Minister, and I will not take from him, he is a Minister of reform and he did bring in the gender quotas. However, there are many women who would love to be in politics but find it impossible because they have young children or because they are newly-married and are planning a family. There is no such thing as maternity leave or crèches for councillors. The Minister should look at this issue when he is undertaking reform.

I strongly urge the Minister to revisit the idea of totally abolishing town councils because they are invaluable to the towns. I spent time on a county council and I can categorically say that not once did I get a representation from the people regarding a town council issue, although Killarney is a town with a large population. I might have got medical card, social welfare or school grant issues but I never got a town council issue because the people went directly to their town councillors, who dealt with the matter. They ran the town efficiently. I ask the Minister to go back and rethink that part of his reform.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister back to the House. He is a Minister who gives great value when he comes here because he is prepared to engage and spar with us.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It brings life to the debate whereas many debates are just set pieces where the Minister says A, we say B and out the door with us.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They need a bit of life.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As long as the Minister is prepared to do that, we will certainly accept and welcome it.

I will not make a long speech as I have spoken on this on a number of occasions on the Order of Business, on Second Stage debates and so on. However, I am stunned that the Minister had the ability and courage to be able to drive through the abolition of town councils against such ferocious opposition from his own party benches, as is evident here. Where were these voices when the parliamentary party meetings were taking place and when Cabinet was discussing this issue? We were here roaring on the changes and it seemed to be all hunky-dory.

Now they are all very worried about it and "Oisín i ndiaidh na Féinne" is what I say.

Denis Landy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

None of us over here is in Cabinet yet.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fair play to the Minister for steamrolling them. After 22 years as a town councillor, I never thought I would be in Leinster House singing the requiem for town councils. It is regrettable and very sad. Pining for town councils is in no way backward looking. They gave fantastic service and what I liked most about them - I was also a county councillor - was the manner in which the urban communities related to, associated with and were interested in the work of town councils. I can give one example of that, of which I am sure the Minister is aware. No election was of more interest to a town dweller than that for his or her own town council. Everybody wondered whether Mikey or Johnny got in and how many votes such and such got. I found there was no such interest or excitement about general, European or even county council elections. My supporters did not give two hoots what I got in county council elections once I topped the poll in town council elections and beat Fine Gael. That was the craic of it.

I have a few questions for the Minister to which I hope he might be able to come back. Before I leave the topic of town councils, I must mention that the best representative organisation in this country was the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland which gave service over 100 years. I compliment it and recognise the fact that its president, Willie O'Callaghan, is here along with Mark Dalton who is also very involved. My questions are simple. Will the county council still be the premier, overarching local authority in the county? Will its position be in any way diminished by the creation of a new tier of municipals? If the answer is "No", what powers will a municipal authority or council have that the town council does not already have in the town areas?

There has been a Civil Service plot in respect of this going back years and the Minister inherited it. I think the former Minister for the environment, Noel Dempsey, was involved in that plot but he did not see it through. At least the Minister is seeing it through. The Civil Service had this up its sleeve for a long time. When I was first elected, I was elected to an urban district council. Do Members remember those? For no apparent reason, the Civil Service changed the names of them to town councils. This in a way diminished them and did what the Minister says he is trying to get rid of, namely, isolating the town and putting it inside town walls. Now we are going back to municipal district councils. Municipal and urban mean the same thing. There has been a little scheme going on for quite a while and I suspected it and said so at the time.

The Minister referred to the rating position in his speech. He spoke about the harmonisation of rates. Everybody knows that in most town councils, the rating is low. I was in business for a long time.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask the Senator to conclude as we are under time pressure.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All my neighbours are in business and are very concerned that the advantageous rating position they had vis-à-vis the county will change. When the Minister talks about harmonisation, we all know what that means. It is a dangerous word. If there is harmonisation, somebody is coming up but somebody is going down. More than likely, the town council rates will go up.

The Acting Chairman has an advantage over me because I did not get any report on the county council meeting yesterday when I normally do. I do not know what maps she is talking about. Are there maps already in circulation showing potential revisions of the electoral areas?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are gerrymandering in Kerry.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There must be something going on there. The Minister stated that the new electoral areas will follow the existing ones as far as possible. At the same time, they will be based on the town centres. Tralee is one centre and Listowel is another while there is a sizeable village of Ballyheigue-----

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator must conclude because we have four speakers who have just enough time to speak.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ballyheigue is four miles from Tralee and is in the Listowel area, from which it is 25 miles. Do I infer from this that Ballyheigue must be in the Tralee area? Could the Minister comment on that?

I was involved and had a good time in partnerships, which have a role. Local authorities must be paramount. There is more accountability in local authorities than in any voluntary groups.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tell Senator Mooney that.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have to disagree on that. He never served on one.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Change is difficult for everybody. People here say that this is not reform. When one introduces radical and comprehensive reform, which is what is being proposed, one is bound to get considerable opposition to it. There is no question about it. If one is reducing 114 local authorities to 31 city and town councils, many people will be hurt as a result of it. As has been mentioned, organisations in existence for 100 years may have to go out of existence as a result of it. A city council celebrating 110 years next year will no longer be in existence but will be merged with the county. The Minister might spell out what a metropolitan area is.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could Senator Cullinane listen as I would like to get answers from the Minister as much as him so I would like to have the opportunity to continue?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Cummins without interruption.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was just saying the Senator will be having a wake.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister argued that the enhanced metropolitan area will greatly enhance the gateway status of Waterford. We agree to differ on that but the Minister might comment on that at a later stage. Better Local Government was introduced a number of years back by the other side of the House but who did it benefit? We had an extra layer of bureaucracy where hundreds of people in local authorities were given a salary of over ¤100,000. That was its form of better local government. This harks back to the point raised by Senator Barrett. There are people within local authorities on inflated salaries while the general worker seems to be suffering and has suffered over the past ten years.

This Minister is introducing radical reforms. We have already seen the Electoral (Amendment)(Political Funding) Act 2012, which deals with gender quotas. The area of local authorities will be another radical reform. One will never get full agreement. The time for councillors to submit their reports to the Boundary Commission is fairly short but that should have been done by councils over the past month or two. It has only been introduced and given by managers to councillors when they have a very short period of time in which to submit their proposals, which is unfair. If one goes to any council in the country and asks it to agree to the break up of boundaries, one will not get very much unanimity from any council one contacts.

They are the situations we face but there is no doubt that the greater streamlining of services at local level will end unnecessary duplication. Let us be honest about this. We have seen a considerable amount of duplication that should be streamlined. Some people here question why we should give more stringent powers and responsibility to councillors in dealing with the one-stop-shop for enterprise. They are the very Senators coming into the House looking for more powers for councillors yet now they are saying they are not good enough to administer bodies under the umbrella of local authorities. There is a lot of double speak here. On one hand, they are advocating one thing and saying something different on the other.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator has 30 seconds left.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are many each way bets here but, unfortunately, there is no each way out of it.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator is making a good job of it.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sure the Minister will respond to the many questions raised, including on separation of powers and enhancing the role of local representatives, who must be strong and know the powers they have. That has not been the case in many situations. If people believe managers are too strong it is up to councillors to flex their muscles and use the powers they have in that regard.

My time is up. I am sure we all have much more to say on this subject but we will return to it. Legislation on the matter will be brought to the House and I am sure people will have the opportunity-----

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have just been advised I must call the Minister to speak at 5.35 p.m. which allows time for only one further speaker. I call Senator Ó Clochartaigh.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Táim cinnte gur tús í seo le neart díospóireachtaí spleodracha a bheidh againn i mbliana. If this, the first substantial debate in the Seanad, is anything to go by it will be a very interesting term. The Government representatives certainly seem to differ from the Minister in regard to his proposals on local government reform. I hope when the Bill is actually in front of us they will stand by the statements they have made today.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I may intervene, I propose an amendment to the Order to Business, namely, that the Minister respond at 5.45 p.m.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Leader made an interesting statement, castigating Fianna Fáil for the fact that people in local government are on inflated salaries. Sinn Féin has been saying this for a long time, especially in our pre-budget submissions where we called for real reform in salary rates at local government level. That has not been looked at by this Government. If it is unacceptable that these people are on inflated salaries the Government has continued with the regime that preceded it.

I wish to focus mainly on local development companies, a very serious issue that concerns me. I have met with local partnership companies in the Galway area which are very concerned. The Minister is a great man for finding letters that were put in filing cabinets by former Ministers who occupied his office. There was one on the septic tanks issue, and a European directive.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was not a letter. It was a memo to Government.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was a piece of paper. The Minister may be able to inform us further. Apparently this process of trying to amalgamate Leader funding into local authorities is not something he dreamt up himself. The last time the Leader negotiations were going on this was mooted too, and the European Union told the Government it did not wish it to go down that route because it believed the model being used in Ireland, namely, Leader funding being put through the local development companies, was a very good one. Perhaps the Minister could put to rest any rumours that he is considering this. He might tell the local development companies and the ILDN he does not intend to dilute the role they have in any way and that he will allow them to be the bodies to apply for Leader funding which, in many cases, is seen as the backbone of their funding. It is around that funding they lever all other fundings and the schemes they put forward. That is really important because they are very close to local development.

People are examining the benefits. Has there been a cost-benefit analysis as to whether it is more efficient to deliver local services and schemes through local development companies than it would be to do so through local authorities? There are great catchwords and phrases in regard to this whole sector. The one the previous Government had was "cohesion" and it seems to have been forgotten, particularly on the Fianna Fáil benches, that it was their party which cohered the CDPs and partnership companies. They did not say too much then about the erosion of local democracy------

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We did not abolish them.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You certainly amalgamated and cohered them. Now alignment is coming down the line.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are still there.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Alignment is about the same thing, namely, taking the power away from the locally elected people, community and voluntary groups.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator is being selective.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

An unfair comment was made by Senator O'Sullivan, to the effect there was more accountability in local authorities than in any voluntary groups. It should be put on record that the local development and partnership companies have served this country extremely well. They are top class-----

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I said that.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----when it comes to accountability and in many cases they deliver in a much more cost effective manner. When cohesion was being mooted in regard to the local partnership company in Connemara we did a cost benefit analysis that showed it was much cheaper to do this on a local level.

It is really important that the Minister put people's minds at rest on this issue. There are many local development companies that are very concerned about this being an agenda pushed by county managers and directors of services, not only in this Minister's regime but also in previous regimes. We call on the Minister to ensure that does not happen, simply because of the benefits. This process should be about putting citizens first. What discussion has taken place with unions in regard to the mooted alignment process? The experience of these companies during the past 20 years in addressing disadvantage, poverty and social exclusion is extremely important and must be continued. Tá súil agam gur thug an tAire ar bord na pointí a rinne muid agus go dtabharfaidh sé dóchas do na comhlachtaí seo inniu.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Four Senators remain to speak and there are ten minutes left. If they agree to share time perhaps everyone can speak. I call Senator Kelly.

John Kelly (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I share time with Senator Walsh? I will try to finish in two minutes, less if I can get through it.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That will be three minutes and two minutes respectively. Is that agreed? Agreed.

John Kelly (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Real reform is about giving councillors more power. We have had this discussion before and to a degree I agree with the Minister that while councillors have the power they are waiting for the next lollipop from the county manager. That is a fact of life. In local government at present the executive is running the councils, not the county councillors. The same situation is replicated at Government level. Civil servants run the country, as has been noted in the Chamber. From interaction with various Ministers, I have noted they cannot do anything because they are hamstrung by civil servants. I was interested to hear the debate on whether we should tax people earning more than ¤100,000 an extra 3%. The media reported that Fine Gael would not agree to this unless the Labour Party agreed to cut social welfare. In my view the civil servants were telling the Government what they were and were not willing to take, and they were not willing to take that pain. That is where the real story lies. I often wonder if there is any need for politicians because the executive runs the council and the civil servants run the country.

On a more parochial issue in regard to local government reform I am concerned, and point out to my counterpart in County Leitrim, Senator Mooney, that this county, with a population of 27,000, will retain 18 county councillors while a population in County Roscommon of 63,000 will have the same number. Perhaps this submission to the Boundary Commission should be looked at again. I would appreciate if the Minister would look at it.

There are more rural than urban areas in County Roscommon. The rates bill being paid by Monksland to Roscommon County Council is ¤1.3 million per year and there is talk that Monksland may be counted in with Athlone. The county council has made a submission on this which, in my view, is a nonsense. If it were to happen I wonder how it would pan out.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I can allay the Senator's fears.

John Kelly (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am delighted to hear that. I cannot imagine how it would have panned out, given the rates in County Roscommon are ¤72 per square foot while across the River Shannon at Athlone they are ¤52.

I compliment the Minister on introducing the grant for the septics tanks which is a good initiative. Fair play to him. Is that an 80% grant of ¤4,000, or is it a maximum grant? Can a lesser grant be paid? What kind of money must be invested in upgrading a septic tank for a person to avail of the grant of ¤4,000?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator is reaching into Senator Walsh's territory.

John Kelly (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Moving slightly away from the subject, I refer to ghost housing estates. Has the Minister considered demolishing some of these estates around the country?

They may be owned by the banks or by NAMA. It is most certain that some of them need knocking.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Walsh has just over one and a half minutes' speaking time.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Kelly for giving me that minute and a half. I am disappointed. Local government has been crying out for real and meaningful reform going back many decades. An attempt was made in 2001 but unfortunately some of the initiatives in the 2001 Act were subsequently reversed. These current proposals are not reform but rather rationalisation of councils, which is the corollary of embracing the principle of subsidiarity. We should be empowering councillors at local level. We should be transferring a number of the executive functions from the manager and making them reserved functions of councils. I see no reason in the current climate to have any executive functions. Councillors should be empowered to make decisions. The process should be transparent to ensure they are held accountable for their decisions and also the manner in which they make them. There is nothing in the Minister's statement about the devolution of powers to councils. Other countries have a variety of public services which are administered and controlled by local government, but that is not the case in this country. The only initiative in the past ten years was from the Department of Justice and Equality. Why do local government members not have a greater role in our dysfunctional health services? It has been found that the centralisation of health services has been a significant mistake. We have the most centralised governing system in the whole of the Western world.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I must ask the Senator to conclude to give other Senators a chance to speak.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not excluding ourselves from it; I blame all Governments-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator should include himself.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----going back at least 25 years. In 1975, an international competitiveness report identified Ireland as the most centrally governed country in the world.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And it was helped in 1977.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I must ask the Senator to conclude. We must be fair to the other Senators who have sat all day waiting to contribute.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will finish on this point. Representation statistics show that each member represents 4,800 people; the figure is much smaller in other countries, including Denmark, where it is 1,115. We are going in the wrong direction.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to share my time with my friend, Senator Jim D'Arcy. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire go dtí an Seanad. The action programme, Putting People First, whose aim is to provide for better engagement with citizens, emphasises the need for local government to build strong relationships with and to gain the interest of local people. I believe the programme will encourage greater participation by local communities, together with local public representatives, who are familiar with the needs and aspirations of their own communities. The action programme reinforces local government as the primary means of public service at local level by harnessing the commitment of elected members, officials and local communities. The Minister is totally committed to building stronger, more cohesive local government. This will provide local government with a greater capacity to address challenges, to address the social and economic development of local communities and to collectively maximise the strengths of the country as a place in which to live, invest, work and play.

The system of local government is being brought into the 21st century. As a critical part of this process the emphasis in the action programme is on enabling local government to deliver more to the community it serves and to be more accountable. Local authorities have a vital role to play in delivering essential services to our communities.

I will conclude with a message.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Brennan, there will not be sufficient time for Senator D'Arcy to speak if you continue.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fair enough.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have known the Minister a long time. In that time I have found he is totally committed to local government, more so than any other member of the current Government. He has said that local government will be the main vehicle for government and public service at local level. If that is delivered, it is all we want. I congratulate the Minister on his reforms. I hope the municipal districts will retain some level of competence in their areas. As he said, taking in the hinterlands which are currently under-represented will be one of the key areas of reform. I wish the Minister well.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Senator for his brevity. I call the Minister to respond.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Senators for their contributions. I value the sincerity with which many speakers have raised these issues. I assure the House that once the legislation is published and is brought to the House I will look very carefully at any amendments or changes Members wish to propose. I will be as open as possible in that regard.

We are operating within a situation of financial restrictions. Members of this House should not be immune to this fact and I cannot be immune to it as a member of the Government. It is a very difficult situation. This is not the reason for the meaningful reform programme we propose. People who read the document in its entirety will have found answers to many of the questions raised by Senators today. It is evident that not everyone who spoke has read the document. I suggest it should be read in full to understand the types of function we are seeking to introduce and to devolve as much as possible to local level. Many contributors want structures but not power or responsibility. They cannot have it every way. My starting point is to decide what are the types of service that can be delivered by local government. The principal position is set out in the document. If a service can be delivered as close as possible to the citizen, the vehicle by which that service can be delivered is local government. The structures and services are already in situ, as is the provision of opportunities. Therefore, this is the first matter to consider in the delivery of any new or existing service which is currently being delivered by a State agency. This gives us all an opportunity to see how agreement can be achieved between Departments, agencies and all of us. For example, once this reform goes through, councillors will have to adopt all programmes and service delivery across the range of local authority services; they will have to adopt all service level agreements between national bodies and local bodies; and they will have to adopt all economic strategies and community strategies, something they are unable to do at the moment. The difficult aspect is that they will have to avail of revenue-raising opportunities in order to ensure that the priorities they have outlined in their strategies and budgets can be delivered.

My late father was a councillor from 1955 to 1982. Up to his untimely death, as a councillor he had more power to deliver local services in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s than I had as a councillor subsequent to 1982. That is my background with regard to local government. I say to the people in this House who have a close relationship with councillors that I will not be found wanting with regard to devolution of responsibility from national to local. Revenue-raising opportunities or powers to implement those programmes at local level are what we should be aiming for in legislation. We cannot have it every way. It was a great mistake to centralise local government over the years, as mentioned by Senator Walsh. The final nail in the coffin was in 1977 when rates were abolished across the board. That really removed and centralised into national agencies and bodies any opportunities for people to deliver their priorities at local level. I want to change that. I say in a very open way to Members of the House that I will be delighted to hear their views about amendments they may wish to table.

I remind Senator Ó Domhnaill that we can have our little scraps about local level. He had a good run in his contribution today, but it also contained a lot of misinformation about reductions in services. If people in Donegal or anywhere else pay for their local services, more services will be delivered. However, if people do not pay for them the budgets will not be met.

Therefore, the local management must decide to cut their cloth to suit its measure. If people advocate not paying then they should not expect the same level of service. It is a responsibility - and I am not saying that personally to the Senator - but we must all take responsibility. If one wants a service then one must pay for it so the funds can come from central government or local government. The more discretion one has, the more opportunities there will be to raise revenue at local level.

I would say to Senators Ó Clochartaigh and Cullinane from the Sinn Féin Party that I have examined the Northern Ireland situation which adopted a position of responsibility. Revenue raising opportunities have been provided for local people and it is called a property tax. I have examined that property tax as a possible model for this State in the future. In the North Sinn Féin places a charge of ¤1,000 on an average household for a particular range of services.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, we are getting service.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask the Minister to outline the services.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People cannot have it every way.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please outline the services.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator's party has proposed reducing the number of local authorities to 11. There may be political reasons for his party doing so but that is their business. His party holds a position of responsibility and I am watching closely what it does at local level.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very good.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope that I learn for that experience.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What are we getting from the property tax?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not be hypocritical.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What extra services are we getting for the property tax?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not be hypocritical about it. The local improvement scheme has been re-opened again.

Denis Landy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Good news.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome that, well done.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We reduced the Exchequer contribution for local authority services, not the local government fund.

Senator Landy has had a genuine interest in local authorities for a long time. We have had differences and agreements on the fundamental issue of devolution and that is where both of us are coming from. In line with what I have just said, I will strengthen the opportunities for councillors to make decisions at local level and as near as possible to the citizen. I would like people to keep an open mind about our structures. The devil will be in the detail when it comes to municipal district powers.

Denis Landy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It will.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the bottom line. The same people who will be representatives on municipal councils will also be on county councils. They will have a second bite at the cherry when it comes to matters such as the collection of moneys, how moneys are distributed to the various districts and municipal districts. The same people who will be concerned about the way money is distributed will have a say because they will be members of the plenary council at town, county and city levels which is not what happens at the moment. A town councillor cannot attend a county council meeting or seek money anywhere else. A municipal membership will mean that one can attend, advise and influence the outcome when it comes to the distribution of finances for the provision of services, which may be based on the population or whatever criteria is approved by the plenary body at county and city level. That is a fundamental difference to the present set up.

The people who will serve at municipal council level, and who are elected, will have meaningful powers. They will have a lot more powers and responsibilities to deal with the business on behalf of their people than at present. However, we cannot operate in isolation. We must be honest with each other. One is either elected to do something meaningful or positive or one is not. The powers that town councils have at present is unacceptable. I hope that the Senators can see that the overall suite of powers that municipal councils will be a massive improvement with the principle focus being the town or hinterland in which services will be delivered.

Senator Keane mentioned the naming of districts. That is a matter for the local government boundary review committee. For example, I shall not micro manage submissions from Kerry or anywhere else. If I did I would be accused of interfering in the process. I have not done that at national level and I will not do it at local level. The chips will fall where they fall. We cannot keep everyone happy when it comes to boundaries and we all know that as practising politicians. That is why we set up an independent process. Gone are the days when a Minister laid maps on his or her table and made the decisions. Those days are over and it is a welcome development. Ministers for the environment often thought they were smart and sought to influence boundary decisions.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They got it wrong.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They were badly caught out on such matters. We are not going to go down that particular route again. There will be a local government boundary review which will report by the end of May. It will give potential candidates an opportunity to examine the boundaries and decide if they want to contest independently or with political parties. Municipal districts will consist of between six and ten seats. If somebody secures 8% of the vote on the first count he or she will have a good chance of being elected. If a person cannot secure that proportion of the vote then he or she will have to take a serious look at themselves and will not be able to blame the system. People will vote for whomever they want and that is democracy. A quota of 8% is a modest requirement for people who have secured the genuine warmth of his or her electorate rather than the cold winds which all of us feel from time to time. The quote is reflected in the terms of reference. The areas that we have picked and their size will give people opportunities. I disagree with Senator Landy's comment that candidates from smaller parties stand no chance of being elected. Independents or smaller parties will have a much better chance than they do now under the present system which consists of many three and four seat constituencies.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Cities, boroughs and municipal districts with county towns and towns over 20,000 population will retain mayoral status.

Senator Landy raised a couple of other matters regarding the merger of the organisations. We will have a good discussion with the Association of County and City Councils, ACCC, and the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland, AMAI. I welcome the president of the AMAI, Councillor Willie Callaghan. I assure him and his colleagues that over the coming months I shall work closely with his organisation on the legislation. I expect that the legislation will be published before the summer recess but it will not be passed before then. People will have plenty of opportunities over the summer months and into the autumn session to study the legislation and to improve it, where possible. Senator Landy and other Members sought more time to peruse the legislation. Between now and the end of the year should be sufficient time to pass the legislation.

Senator Keane raised another key matter, namely, the relationship between a manager and a local authority member. At the moment it is a relationship. Often councillors do not realise the extent of the influence that they can bring to bear on the outcome of a process, not just budgets and development plans but for many other issues. We want to make it a lot more explicit as to who has the power and responsibility to deliver each of the service plans. I want to ensure that the manager is the chief executive officer on the board of directors of the democratically elected local councillors and that the councillors will have the final say in the outcome, in as much as we possibly can outside of the normal doctor-client relationship, of issues such as the allocation of housing or whatever the appropriate mechanism is established to ensure there is no corruption or bias in the system, which would also be against the best wishes of the citizen. The councillors, as far as possible, will be the locally elected people who, in turn, will hold the position of a board of directors in order to facilitate the chief executive carrying out his or her wishes, not the other way around like at present. Several Senators had raised the matter.

I know that Senator Barrett has had a lot of experience of a State body because of the many matters that arose when merging the health system. I am sure that he had an interesting experience when the health authorities merged into one. I am also sure that he would be aware of the difficulties that would arise if we tried to reverse the merger and grant greater devolved responsibility at local level. It was a fundamental mistake to centralise the health system into a major bureaucracy. Unfortunately we can all see how difficult it would be to reverse its role and try to create a better delivery of services. The health service was established for the wrong reason, to put a structure in place rather than how best to deliver services to the citizen.

I want to assure Senator Barrett about the efficiencies that I mentioned in the McLoughlin report which consisted of 106 recommendations. I will implement 105 of the recommendations. I shall not implement the recommendation to retain the manager. The McLoughlin report recommended 21 local authorities, not 34. I shall not put a manager in charge of several other counties or regional managers because people are entitled to know who is in charge of each local authority. We can co-ordinate many services regionally and nationally and that is essential. We identified ¤511 million of savings under the McLoughlin report and ¤420 million will be in addition to that sum due to better procurement and delivery of services and fewer people at senior management level. In the policy statement we have provided for a merger of directors of service, fire officers, librarians and people at senior level. In my view there is no need to have a county librarian in every county and one can leave a sufficiently qualified person in charge on a regional basis or group a couple of counties together. For better local government we do not need such a high level of senior management that has built up.

We are going to reverse what is occurring and have middle and lower management to protect front-line services. I agree with the Senator totally that it is not acceptable to have very little change at senior level and considerable change affecting front-line services delivered by outdoor staff. I am trying to redress this through the workforce planning process. There is provision for 500 voluntary retirements at senior management level as part of our policy proposals.

Senator Sean D. Barrett should note that many private entities that were regarded as pillars of society also got things wrong, including the boards of banks, for example. We should not ignore these either. The individuals concerned put themselves forward as candidates for State boards. I am sure Governments came under pressure from many of these wonderful people who were not exactly doing much in the best interests of the country or the private entities they were representing. We must acknowledge that people are paid a lot of money in the private sector also. An example is the payment of a salary of ¤1 million, on top of share options, to an individual in the food sector. This is one area we could consider also. The staff are doing a great job, but I am sure they are not worth ¤1 million, in addition to share options. The private and public sectors could get together a little more often and talk about what is a realistic return on their investment in terms of human capital. Those at the lower levels in society and those working hard to make senior management positions available are often driven to despair over the extent to which senior managers are paid.

I assure Senator Sean D. Barrett that 8,500 people have left the local government service in the past four years. This represents the highest rate of departure in any area of the public service. There was a reduction in staff from 37,000 in mid-2008 to 28,500 today. This represents a substantial contribution to dealing with the fiscal problems we face. Despite the reductions, however, local authorities are expected to deliver a quality service.

Senator David Cullinane mentioned Waterford, as he does regularly. I would expect him to do so, but I assure him the actions taken in Waterford were to improve its status, as Senator Maurice Cummins stated. What did the gateway status the city had for so long achieve for it? There is no point in having status if one does not have resources or implementable development plans. Everywhere has status such as hub or gateway status, but such status is meaningless if one does not have the resources to implement the plans associated therewith. I am sorry the Senator did not acknowledge that I had kept the councils in Galway city and county apart. Obviously, those concerned do not get on.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not remember mentioning that.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The recommendations for Waterford are part of a process to bring together an entity that will represent 114,000 people and provide strength for the county and city. The heritage, traditions and mayoral status of Waterford will continue in the true metropolitan style that is to be enjoyed by Limerick, Cork and Dublin. These are the capitals of the regions and need to be strengthened.

Senator David Cullinane but perhaps not Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh will realise no one in Waterford would be happy with the decline of the city centre. We are going to allow for the necessary impetus, as we have done through some recent major financial announcements which Senator David Cullinane chose not to mention.

With regard to alignment, many Senators mentioned the community sector, the representatives of which I met yesterday. I have a very close working relationship with the sector. From a recent visit to Brussels to meet Members of the European Parliament and the Commission, the representatives will know from the budgetary discussions taking place on the Common Agricultural Policy that there will be a massive reduction in funding under the rural development programme. This has been well signalled by the officials the representatives met in Brussels. One will not need the same structures to administer a budget that will probably be 50% lower.

The local and community development programme and all such programmes are part of a wider package of services to be delivered for the areas in question. When I refer to the alignment of community and local authorities, I envisage them working closely together. The 1,968 people who work in the community and partnership sector are an enormous expense. Do we need to provide for synergies to ensure savings in administration such that the money left over will be available to provide front-line services? This is the challenge for everybody. One is either interested in oneself or services for the community. The structures we have in place will not be the kind we will be able to afford from 2014. We must examine what savings we can achieve in local government to continue meeting some of the costs of administration.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who will be in charge? Will it be local government, the permanent government, the voluntary sector or the 2,000-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The democratically elected councillor will have a much greater say than he or she would have had when just sitting on the board. The community sector will be working with him or her. They will be working together, closer than ever, to ensure the delivery of services to the citizen who will be more important than the structures in place.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What will happen to the jobs?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If one does not have enough money to run a given business, one does not need the same number of staff. Redundancies are required and it will all depend on budgets. Ultimately, it will all depend on the precise sum we receive under the Common Agricultural Policy.

I have said to the representatives of the Irish Leader Network, whom I met yesterday, that we should work together to determine how we could reach an agreement on the establishment of the socioeconomic committees within local authorities and the role the local government sector would have in respect of community involvement. We will be meeting again in a few weeks to examine this issue. We will be meeting after we know what the budget is for the next round of Leader funds, and also after we know what the answers are to a number of questions on the alignment process I initiated a year ago.

The local government system and the local and community sector will have to forge alliances more than ever before to ensure the survival of the local development sector in some areas. The community sector will require local authorities to help it. It is incumbent on local authorities to be more proactive in ensuring the community sector is developing in their areas.

As I travel around the country, I am very much aware that some county managers do not embrace the community and voluntary sector in the way they should and have not done so during the years. I will challenge and urge them to forge the necessary links and relationships with it.

Only a finite sum of money will be available. Let us determine how we can work together to ensure the community programmes survive in so far as this is possible. Let us also ensure the local government sector will be available to help the community sector to administer the schemes more than ever before.

I thank the Acting Chairman for allowing me to make these points.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the postponement of the date of registration of septic tanks?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That has nothing to do with local government reform.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill to confirm to the House that he will subsidise the people from whose pockets he took ¤45 unwittingly by asking them not to register before 28 September, before which date one could have registered for ¤5 instead of ¤50.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked no one not to register.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator did.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This has nothing to do with local government reform.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Ó Domhnaill and some other Members of the House have done a great disservice to those who want to protect groundwater quality and the right thing by the State.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Publish the standard.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This has nothing to do with local government reform.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Acting Chairman for the manner in which she has supported the people of Kerry in registering septic tanks. In that county there is a registration rate of 86%.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister will be glad to know that Fianna Fáil has organised 11 public information meetings in County Donegal on the issue of septic tank registration.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When is it proposed to sit again?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ar leathuair tar éis a deich maidin amárach.