Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, agus fearaim céad fáilte roimh an Aire. Tá mé thar a bheith buíoch di as teacht isteach leis an gceist seo a fhreagairt. The Minister will be aware of concerns raised previously about JobBridge. We believe it is stopping the provision of real jobs and is leading to exploitation of workers. There are many ludicrous examples of internships which are not real but which are being tolerated. Vacancies for hotel receptionists, waitresses, car valets and telesales assistants are all advertised on the website as of 6 o'clock this evening. These internships are potentially displacing real jobs. It does not necessarily take 40 hours a week for nine months to learn how to clean a car, change a bed or carry plates. All of these jobs are relatively easy to learn but they involve hard work and in our view this is work which should be paid for.

The level of unemployment and under-employment across all these fields is critically high. JobBridge further reduces the number of paid jobs available. The Government should be embarrassed to call this a jobs initiative. In our view, JobBridge is the new minimum wage.

The Minister stated that JobBridge is a central plank of the Government's jobs strategy, but there is zero evidence of strategic thinking. A genuine internship programme would improve a person's job prospects. There are no jobs, so why should employers hire people when they can get them for free, courtesy of the State? The scheme is so poorly designed that it is ripe for exploitation. It needs to be significantly reformed.

In 2010, the US Department of Labor produced six criteria governing internships, one of which provides that an employer cannot hire an intern for free unless he or she derives no immediate advantage from the intern's activities. This is designed to ensure that an internship is a benevolent act by an employer, rather than a form of exploitation. We would agree with this.

We have a number of concerns about the application of the JobBridge scheme, particularly in the public service. We would like to know whether there is any vetting of those who take up these internships. Are safeguards put in place for them during the course of their employment? We do not suggest that those availing of schemes such as JobBridge should not be entitled to enter into jobs in the public service, for example in Departments, organisations, agencies and companies. In such bodies, however, it is possible that they will come into contact with sensitive information and personal details, etc., some of which could be very important. When we discussed the National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill 2012 last week, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, said that ten people had been brought into the bureau under the JobBridge scheme to clear the backlog of vetting applications. That is where this concern arose. We feel there is a need to ensure safeguards are in place so that JobBridge applicants who are employed in State bodies are monitored to ensure sensitive information is treated with the appropriate gravity and care.

The other concern we have that is specific to the public service is an obvious one. The JobBridge scheme is meant to be a route to employment, but where is the employment in the public service? The Government is quite proud of the recruitment embargo in the public service. There is questionable value in forcing people to work for their welfare for a few months, in workplaces that need real full-time labour, before showing them the door again. While they might pick up some experience, it is absurd that people who want to work and are keen to do so cannot be allowed to do the additional full-time work that needs to be done in parts of the public service. We cannot match the two up.

We are concerned about the possibility of young interns being exploited, and we are particularly concerned about the possibility that the State would be exploiting them. These interns will do what they can to impress and improve their knowledge. Many fine, skilled young people are being lumped into Departments and agencies that are struggling to cope with their own workloads. There is every possibility that the young people in question will find themselves exploited by having to cover enormous amounts of work far beyond their experience. That is why I have asked the Minister this question this evening. In light of the confirmation by the Minister, Deputy Shatter, last week that ten interns have been placed in the vetting bureau, it is important for us to get a breakdown of the number of JobBridge participants who got placements with State Departments, organisations, agencies or companies and were subsequently given employment by the bodies in question when those placements came to an end. I ask the Minister to provide some clarification in response to that question. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire agus tá mé ag súil go mór lena fhreagra.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The national internship scheme, JobBridge, was launched on 1 July 2011. It provides internship opportunities of six or nine months for unemployed people on the live register in organisations in the private, public, community and voluntary sectors. Its aim is to assist in breaking the cycle whereby jobseekers are unable to get a job without experience. It gives such people an opportunity to gain valuable experience, relevant knowledge and skills in a working environment. The JobBridge scheme has made significant progress since it came into operation on 1 July 2011. Some 13,049 internships have commenced to date. As of 13 December last, some 5,612 participants are on internships and some 2,235 opportunities are advertised on jobbridge.ie. An interim evaluation of JobBridge, which was conducted by Indecon international economic consultants and published on 5 October 2012, found that 52.3% of JobBridge finishers have progressed into employment with their host organisation or another employer since finishing their internship. As the study pointed out, this is one of the best outcomes in Europe for a work placement programme.

I wish to advise the Senator that to date 2,645 placements, or 22% of the total, have been in the public service. The interim evaluation report that was published by Indecon in October 2012 found that 49% of interns who finished their internships in the public sector are now in paid employment. The report found that 27% of those interns who finished their placements in the public sector are now in paid employment with their host organisations. The other 22% of interns who progressed into employment did so with other organisations. A significant proportion of those progressing into employment with other organisations did so on foot of the high-quality skills and experience they gained during their internships. For the purposes of the Indecon report, the public sector was deemed to include the community and voluntary sectors. It must be acknowledged that the progression outcomes into employment from placements in the public sector are encouraging.

One of the main benefits of JobBridge for interns is that the scheme gives participants an opportunity to gain new job skills and high-quality work experience. Many interns consider that the scheme improves their chances of gaining employment. Some 89.3% of interns believe JobBridge has given them new skills. The scheme helps to boost participants' self-confidence, assists them in identifying job opportunities suitable to their abilities, keeps them close to the job market and helps them to establish contacts and networks. The scheme has had positive effects on the subsequent employment chances of participants who would not have secured employment in the absence of the scheme. The findings suggest the scheme has been an effective labour market intervention, in terms of achieving movement off the live register.

JobBridge is a pillar of the Government's jobs initiative, which was announced in May 2011. Its goal is to help people seeking employment to gain valuable work experience and enhance their prospects of getting a job. I am delighted that an independent review of the scheme has found that this goal is being achieved. This is a scheme for a particular set of people - those who unfortunately find themselves unemployed. It is not for everybody. I continuously meet people and their parents who tell me the scheme has been strongly positive for them. The Senator will appreciate that it is very rewarding to hear that at a time when many fine people unfortunately find themselves without jobs.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for her reply, although I do not think she answered the specific question I asked. I would like to know how many participants got placements with Departments, organisations, agencies or companies and how many of them were subsequently employed by those bodies. We have been told that 49% of those who did internships in the public sector have found paid employment, but I understand that for these purposes, "public sector" includes the community and voluntary sectors. How many of the State Departments, organisations, agencies and companies involved in these internships kept on the interns who had placements with them?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am relying on the figures from the Indecon survey. This is the way they are structured. The Senator is probably aware that the vast majority of public, voluntary and community organisations in this country are funded by the State. I am a little disappointed that Sinn Féin is so opposed to internship. I always thought that many people worked in Sinn Féin for nothing. I thought they were the pioneers in this regard. I suppose the people in question get nothing at all.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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That is a question of volunteerism.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is somewhat disappointing that Sinn Féin is quite so negative. I have long experience of working at third level. I am particularly conscious that one of the problems caused by the recession is that many young people hit a brick wall when they look for employment opportunities after completing secondary education, FETAC training, community employment schemes or third level education. I am aware of people with fantastic primary and master's degrees - even a number of people with PhDs - who have encountered such difficulties. The Senator is profoundly wrong. I invite him to examine the figures and think again. Between 130,000 and 140,000 people leave the live register every year to take up employment in Ireland.

We are not talking about people who might leave the country or drop out of the labour force. They actually leave the live register to take up employment. The critical point in taking up employment is that one's best opportunity, particularly if one has just completed a course or is moving to a new career, is in being able to say to an employer not only that one wants to work for that person and has good educational or other qualifications but also that one has worked and has relevant experience. One of the problems is that in the recession we could build up a cohort of people who would have many educational qualifications, some at a very high level, but who would never have had an opportunity to work. From a business point of view, the opportunity for somebody looking for a first or second job, if he or she is moving field such as someone who worked in construction and is moving to work perhaps in the information technology sector, is greatly diminished in the absence of a bridge or pathway from one sector to another or to a job in the first place. I have a great deal of experience in business and of working with businesses-----

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I also have experience in business and long experience of applying for-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There is no provision for a debate on the issue.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I have long experience with thousands of people in the education sector.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is not the only one with experience in business.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I do not understand why Sinn Féin is so negative about young people and people changing fields to gain work experience that will help them to find a job.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.05 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 19 December 2012.