Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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In view of the decision of the House I propose that the discussion on Seanad reform shall be taken now and shall conclude at 2.30 p.m. and that Nos. 1, 2 and 3 shall be taken at another time. I may propose an amendment to the Order of Business later if we can get the Minister to attend at a different time today to discuss them. The Animal Health and Welfare Bill 2012 - Committee Stage (Resumed) shall be taken at 3.15 p.m.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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First, I commend the House on taking a significant decision.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, we are not discussing the Order of Business now.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Tuigim. However, I ask the Leader to arrange that a Minister be present to take this important debate. As the House has decided, correctly in my view, that this significant motion be taken, I request that a Minister be present. If it is necessary to suspend the sitting for 20 to 30 minutes to facilitate a Minister to come in to take this debate, that should happen. The Seanad took an important decision today and that should happen. I ask the Leader to accede to that request.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I have no intention of acceding to that request. The motion, as put, was that the matter would be dealt with before No. 1. I am agreeing to the decision that it be taken. I had no prior notice and I cannot get a Minister to attend the House at this time. Members will take the matter without a Minister being present.

David Norris (Independent)
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There is a Minister waiting.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I seek clarification on a point from the Cathaoirleach. The Leader obviously must accept the motion as tabled, on the basis of the vote of the House. However, if the Opposition's position is that it does not accept the amended Order of Business, on the basis that the Leader will not facilitate the attendance of a Minister to take this important debate, how would the motion stand in that regard, now that it has passed? What if the Opposition was to oppose the amended Order of Business on the basis that no Minister will be present?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The motion must be taken.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Is it correct that the motion must be taken one way or the other?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader has made a proposal. He has made an amendment to the Order of Business to delete Nos. 1, 2 and 3. Are Members agreed?

David Norris (Independent)
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On a point of order, I believe that wittingly or unwittingly, the Leader has misled the House. A Minister is available. There must be, because there must be a Minister to take the debate that had been scheduled.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The relevant Minister is unavailable.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the House-----

David Norris (Independent)
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Debates often have been taken when the relevant Minister is not available with no response from the Leader.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The relevant Minister is not available to take this matter.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, resume your seat.

David Norris (Independent)
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This is not true and the record will show there is no obstacle to this but the Leader now is trying to frighten-----

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Senator constantly stands up with points of order that are not points of order at all.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, resume your seat. Does the House-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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While I am not trying to complicate matters, I seek a point of clarification. Should Members oppose the Order of Business today, the motion must still be taken first before any other business because this is what the House has agreed. I note the presence of a Minister outside the Chamber, who was due to take the business and I ask the Leader that this Minister or another should attend. I propose the suspension of the House until 12.30 p.m. to allow a Minister to come in here.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader has proposed an amendment to the order of the House-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Members on this side will oppose it.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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-----that Nos. 1, 2 and 3 be deleted. Does the House agree?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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No.

David Norris (Independent)
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Does he have the power to exclude the Minister if the latter is willing to take part in the debate?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Can we have silence please? The question is that the amendment to the Order of Business be agreed to.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We will oppose it.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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An amendment has been proposed to the resolution of the House on the arrangement for taking business, "That the discussion on Seanad reform shall be taken now and shall conclude at 2.30 p.m. and that Nos. 1, 2 and 3 shall be taken at another time."

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to outline to the House the arrangements for business today.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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In view of the vote of the House, I propose that Nos. 1 and 2 be taken and allocated 45 minutes, as stated, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed five minutes and that the Minister be given five minutes to reply.

I propose we delete No. 3 and deal with that matter tomorrow, that the Animal Health and Welfare Bill be taken, as stated, from 3.15 p.m. to 6 p.m. and that we deal thereafter with motion No. 9 on Seanad reform, from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. I will endeavour to have a Minister attend the House at that time, if possible.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Leader for his suggestion. May I propose that the House sitting be suspended for 15 minutes to allow the Whips to discuss what he has outlined? It would be our preference to have a Minister in the House for this very important debate, given that Seanad reform is included in the constitutional convention. With respect for the House, I do not wish to disrupt the business of the day; that is not what we are about. The Leader respects the vote of the House but I propose a suspension until 12.45 p.m. to allow the Whips and the leaders of the group to discuss this. Our original proposal was that No 1 be taken first, which was passed, or that No. 9 be taken before No. 1. That is a slight change-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader is the only Member who can make such a proposal.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader propose this?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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With the indulgence of the House, I propose that we proceed with Nos. 1 and 2, during which time the Whips can meet in regard to this matter. We can proceed with the business of the House in regard to these motions and I will return before No. 2 is concluded, as a result of the meeting with the Whips.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order, I seek clarification as to whether a Sinn Féin representative will have any speaking time on Nos. 1 and 2.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I stated that spokespersons would have time, not group spokespersons. The Senator will have an opportunity.

David Norris (Independent)
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If there is no other Minister available, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, could not be more suitable.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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What is the situation in relation to No. 3?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I am proposing to delete it. We will take it tomorrow.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Leader proposing that we proceed with Nos. 1 and 2 and that the debate on Seanad reform will take place after that, following the meeting of the Whips?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I will come in after the Whips have met to notify the House of when the debate on Seanad reform will take place.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader has proposed the deletion of No. 3 from the resolution. Does the House agree with that? Agreed. No. 3 is deleted.