Seanad debates

Wednesday, 28 March 2012

10:30 am

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Private Member's business, Privacy Bill 2012 - Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude not later than 1.45 p.m.; No. 2, Criminal Justice (Female Genital Mutilation) Bill 2011 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil] - Report Stage, to be taken at 1.45 p.m. and conclude not later than 2.30 p.m.; and No. 3, statements on housing, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and conclude not later than 4.30 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, that of a Sinn Féin Senator not to exceed three minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed one minute in putting a question to the Minister. Private Members' business shall be No. 21, motion No. 8, to be taken at 4.30 p.m. and conclude not later than 6.30 p.m.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Government's announcement yesterday of 31 May as the date for the referendum on the fiscal compact. We had a good debate in this House on the issue, which should be followed through with another discussion once the referendum legislation is published. We might be somewhat constrained in terms of the time available. I understand the legislation will come before the Dáil in the next week or so and will have to come to us promptly thereafter. I assure the Leader of my party's support in facilitating the scheduling of that legislation, but I ask that sufficient time be given for debate once the legislation is published. We have no difficulty with sitting on a Monday or Friday if that is required. We will play a positive role in the campaign to secure a "Yes" vote for the good of our citizens.

During the debate on the Finance Bill last week I took the opportunity to ask both the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, about the mortgage arrears implementation strategy, but received no answer. This issue, which I have raised week after week in the House, is getting worse by the day. It amounts to a crisis and is the single most important problem to be tackled in this country. I ask the Leader for a commitment that on Members' return after the short Easter break, he will schedule a debate with the Minister specifically on mortgage arrears, as Members must ascertain what is happening in this regard.

Finally, it is D-day minus three in respect of payment of the household charge. Anyone who considers the handling of this charge with a cold eye will state it has been nothing short of a disaster. I was less than assured when listening to the comments made in a radio broadcast this morning by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan. I found it quite amusing when he informed the public that 29 black sacks arrived yesterday at the household charge office. Does the Minister intend to open these black sacks and are their contents known? Is the number of applications contained therein known? I ask once again for a formal extension of the deadline for the payment of this charge. Fianna Fáil has published a Bill that would allow for the extension of this date to September and would allow instalment payments. Most reasonable people will agree that the inability of citizens to enter one of the 1,100 post offices located nationwide to simply pay for the charge over the counter is an absolute nonsense. I believe the real reason for this is the Government will not pay An Post the handling fee for so doing.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It is 5%.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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To me, 5% seems minimal for processing of this charge.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Charging a fiver is a complete joke.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Conway should calm down for a second.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Brien, without interruption.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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My point is that far fewer than 30% of citizens have paid and by the end of this week, the Government will be lucky to break 50% or 60%. The Minister was able to row back substantially on the septic tank charge registration while under pressure. He has proved that he can look outside Leinster House and then decide to row back on decisions he has made. This is totally unfair. The majority of households have not even received any information on this charge. As for the Minister to state repeatedly in radio broadcasts that one can pay online, tens of thousands of people do not have Internet access or are not versed in paying bills over the web. What will be the position?

I will conclude by noting a most serious development of which I learned this morning. The Garda has warned people in County Laois about bogus operators calling into estates to seek the €100 charge. This is because the Minister himself stated that if people do not pay, council staff will call around to households to look for the €100 charge and scam artists have already jumped on the back of that threat. Incidentally, the Minister announced-----

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Probably from the neighbouring counties and not decent Laois people.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I have asked repeatedly for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to come into this House to update Members truthfully and factually on the position in respect of this household charge. It is causing grave concern and I warn the Government that unless it is dealt with in a reasonable fashion, the scenario of which the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, warned will come to pass. It will have a referendum on Europe that is not about Europe itself. It will be about the mismanagement of this Minister in particular and of the Government in general. Consequently, I once again propose an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, come into this House and tell Members directly the reason he will not extend this deadline and the reason he will not allow ease of payment through the extensive post office network.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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In common with Senator Darragh O'Brien, I also welcome the setting of 31 May as the date for the referendum on the fiscal treaty. It is important to have set a date towards which everyone can work. I am also glad to hear that Fianna Fáil will campaign actively for a "Yes" vote, as will the Labour Party, which is gearing up for that already.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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That is what they did.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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However, whichever side of the debate Members are on, it is important that they contribute, as public representatives, to making it an informed debate. It has been useful to have already had a debate in this House on foot of a briefing by the Oireachtas Library and Research Service, which has contributed greatly to everyone's understanding of the referendum and of the treaty. Hopefully, it will feed into a wider public debate and all Members have a duty to ensure this is done.

I also call for a debate on human rights and on the death penalty in particular. I am conscious of a report published recently by Amnesty International on different levels of executions in different countries around the world and of serious concern being expressed about some countries in which it was impossible to verify the numbers of those to whom the death penalty was applied. Amnesty International noted a particular increase took place in Middle Eastern countries. At least 360 people were executed last year in Iran, 82 in Saudi Arabia and an unverifiable number in China, which was well in excess of the numbers there. While all Members welcome the reports of substantial Chinese investment in Ireland and while it is welcome to see the Taoiseach on a trade mission to China, one must ensure that human rights is also on the agenda there. I acknowledge the Taoiseach has stated it is and will be on the agenda whenever he meets Chinese leaders. However, a debate on the death penalty would be worthwhile in the context of the Amnesty International report.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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On human rights, where is the concern about the 16-year old boy who was castrated in Holland?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Bacik, without interruption.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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In response to Senator Norris, I very much share his concern about the appalling report of what happened in the Netherlands.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I am glad it is on the record at last.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I am grateful to the Senator for raising it in this House as it is important.

Finally, I thank all those who attended a seminar last night on the future of the Seanad organised by the classics department in Trinity College. It was a worthwhile event chaired by a former Leader of the Seanad, Maurice Manning, and was part of a process that Members must help to initiate in the Seanad. Members must ensure that whenever the referendum on the future of the Seanad takes place, like that on the fiscal compact treaty, it will be preceded by an informed debate. Last night's seminar, at which attendees heard various contributions about the history and context of the idea of an upper house, should feed into any debate on this issue. I again thank the many colleagues who came along to attend.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
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While I am afraid I was not present at the discussion last night on the future of the Seanad, I remind Members that they had considered the idea of inviting leaders of civil society to this Chamber on a regular basis to inform and to share information with them. One of the Seanad's difficulties is that it is not fully democratic. I am a nominated Senator and consequently can speak for this. I acknowledge it is democratic in the manner in which people are voted and elected into the House but it is not a universal franchise. While Members await the debate on the Seanad's abolition or reform, they should continue to engage with civil society. Consequently, I call on the Leader and in particular on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in this regard. The Independent group of Senators submitted several names from various strata of civil society to be invited into the House to share some of their thoughts on particular issues. If I recall correctly, as Members approach the first anniversary of the present Seanad's establishment, only three individuals have appeared in the House, namely, former Senator and President, Mary Robinson, former Senator Maurice Manning and President Buzek of the European Parliament.

I call on the Leader to invite to the House the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, to update Members on the critical review of the amalgamations and mergers of State agencies and quangos. While I do not necessarily contest that some of this must happen, there is uncertainty in the area of culture and the arts in particular. For example, Culture Ireland is under critical review and there is talk of amalgamating the National Archives and the National Library. The Minister, Deputy Howlin, should be invited to the House to facilitate a discussion on the context of the critical review and on whether it is based on saving money, on simply cutting quangos or on creating effectiveness. I call for the Minister to have a debate with Members on the status of the critical review of the amalgamations.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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As far as the household charge is concerned, I am on the side of the people who pay and of those who pay on time. I understand that many people are suffering and I believe that many of those who already have paid are people who find it difficult to pay. It would be a tremendous disincentive to law-abiding people for there to be any backsliding about the household charge at this point. I also consider it to be a disservice to the public that Ministers do not really appear to be focused on clarity primarily but to some degree appear to be working out the tensions between the parties in government. It is quite clear that Labour Party Ministers on this occasion have not really been playing for the team in their utterances. It is said that one reason for that is because they felt they were not adequately consulted about the climb-down on the septic tanks issue. That is not the way the Government should be operating and how to fulfil the duty to the public at this time of crisis.

I am very glad to hear Senator Bacik mention the issue of human rights and China in the same breath. I was concerned when watching the RTE report yesterday evening that there was no reference - as far as I am aware - to human rights. I wonder if to some degree our media is being captured by the issue. I know there are economic imperatives but this is an area where the media owes a service to the country and the public by keeping the issue on the agenda so politicians are not allowed to let this issue slide into the background. People must know that Wen Jiabao is the name of a senior person in a very powerful and undemocratic country; it is not a question of when one should lower one's head in deference to a major economic power.

On the subject of clarity in the messages coming from the Government, the Tánaiste yesterday urged support for the fiscal compact treaty, which is fair enough, but he also tried to claim that support for the treaty was an entirely separate matter to our efforts to secure an improvement in the terms of our banking debt. That is unacceptable as they are not separate questions. The Tánaiste has said this is about stability for the euro but Ireland has done more than anybody to stabilise the euro by taking on the national chin the consequences of reckless behaviour by our banks. What happened to this country had nothing to do with its deficit ratios but it was rather a question of what the banks did because of a lack of oversight by the Government. There was no problem with the debt to GDP that led us to this path. The issues are connected and the Government owes it to the public to be braver and say as much. Ireland has acted in good faith and we now expect to be treated in good faith by the partners in Europe.

Photo of Michael ComiskeyMichael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the news from Ulster Bank this morning of a move on tracker mortgages whereby if a person wants to move house, he or she can hold a section of the tracker mortgage and borrow anything extra. This will have a positive effect and I call on the banks we, for the most part, own - Bank of Ireland and AIB - to follow suit. This will give people an opportunity to upgrade. There was good work done in the budget for first-time buyers and initiatives like this would allow people to get back to the market. It is a good move and I call on the other banks to act similarly.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I endorse the comments of the Leader of the Opposition, Senator Darragh O'Brien, on the date of the referendum, which is 31 May 2012.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator seconding the amendment?

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The Government should have put more focus on the household charge, and the issue is becoming a crisis. There is a revolt taking place among the country's citizens, and it is possibly being fuelled by some personnel in RTE, particularly with the "Liveline" programme. RTE is getting most of the €160 per household from the television licence, with no objection on its part, and there was never a campaign about that fee. The licence fee is collected very efficiently by An Post, and it is a good example of how collection of a levy or charge should come about. The Government must reconsider the matter and be reasonable. The collection will not be completed by Saturday and it is very unfair to charge somebody €10 extra if they go in after Saturday. The Government should be realistic.

If the current 30-70 split in payment of the charge remains until 31 May, we are in serious trouble. We must ensure the two issues remain absolutely separate, and in Fianna Fáil we are committed to supporting in every possible way the passing of the referendum on 31 May. There should be no doubt and it is of paramount importance to the national interest that the issue is resolved on 31 May. We should be seen as leading this campaign.

I compliment the Chairman of the committee dealing with European affairs, Deputy Hannigan, and my fellow committee members. We are holding special meetings all next week and during the recess to have detailed discussions with all the interested parties on the fiscal compact. It is a positive action by the committee which shows it is prepared to give the compact the priority it deserves.

Photo of Susan O'KeeffeSusan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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In the absence of the chair of the public consultation committee, Senator O'Donovan, I take the opportunity to welcome a first for the Seanad, namely, the launch of the first report from the public consultation committee. One may remember this related to the rights of older people, and we had written submissions and hearings before concluding the report and making recommendations. The report will be launched today at 12.30 p.m. in the audiovisual room, and I urge Senators to attend that launch and read the report. Where they can, they should make public the recommendations and urge that the Government take them up.

On a separate note, I also raise the matter of domestic violence. We have been outraged in recent days about the Mahon report and there was much outrage, torment and distress in recent years because of child abuse. The number of children involved in domestic violence scenarios runs to hundreds and there are all sorts of figures and statistics from the domestic violence group known as Safe Ireland showing that on very many occasions around the country, women and children are turned away from shelters. There were 3,600 such occasions in 2010 when women and children could not get access to accommodation. That is an appallingly high figure, and in that group there are children without fault and who have no say or rights; they can do nothing when caught in such a position. The children rely on the HSE and the State to ensure protection is available for them but it is not sufficient.

I ask the Leader to write to the HSE, particularly with regard to Teach Tearmainn in Kildare, which was built at a cost of €900,000 and which is lying idle because the HSE cannot fund staff or operational costs. Already this year, 17 women and their children have had nowhere to go in Kildare, although the building is complete.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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First I should say "Oh what a beautiful morning." It is simply heavenly and I have walked through St. Stephen's Green. I send my compliments to the Office of Public Works, which has maintained that beautiful amenity.

Photo of Michael MullinsMichael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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It is a good reason to pay the household charge.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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We do not give people in the public services half enough credit for what has been done. The household charge is the main issue I want to raise and I have a louder voice than any of the other Members so I can certainly shout anybody down if there is an interruption. The household charge will go into central funds just like car taxes, which should worry everybody. It should also worry people that we are expected to pay the charges on exactly the same day and we have not been given a clear undertaking that we will not have to pay the €3.1 billion that the Irish people do not owe.

I am not signing up to or advocating the fiscal compact treaty, as it is a downright lie. I do not believe in swearing to lies. It is completely mathematically impossible and the targets are unachievable. Our debt levels will get to 120% of GDP and everybody knows it is a farce; we will default but it will be called something else. We should have a little honesty about these issues.

11:00 am

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I am delighted that I get to speak immediately after Senator Norris. The Government is looking for money and anybody speaking against that should identify a source of money to pay those who are unemployed, who are in need of hospital facilities or who maintain the parks that the Senator enjoys walking through so much.

If they can identify an alternative source, I would gladly listen to them.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I would be delighted to do so. Let us have a debate.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Keane have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Yes. I compliment the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, on accepting a Private Members' Bill tabled by the Fianna Fáil Party in the Lower House, which will become law before the end of this year. The legislation addresses an issue I raised in this House earlier this year regarding the Financial Services Ombudsman. Deputy Michael McGrath tabled a short Bill to allow the ombudsman name and shame financial institutions which breach the terms and conditions agreed with individual consumers. This is a welcome development which rows back some of the changes to the freedom of information legislation introduced in 2007.

Approximately one month ago, I asked the Leader to request that the Government review the Freedom of Information Act. The programme of Government includes a commitment to legislate to restore the Act to the position that obtained before it was undermined by the outgoing Government in 2007. Thankfully, the largest party in the previous Government has had a change of heart and has introduced amending legislation which the Government has accepted. I ask for a debate on the Act to ascertain when the commitment in the programme of Government will be implemented. It would be preferable to amend the entire Act rather than change it in a piecemeal manner. I welcome the legislation proposed in the other House by the Fianna Fáil Party and commend Deputy Michael McGrath on preparing it. It is almost unprecedented for a Minister to accept Opposition legislation. His decision shows that the Government intends to make things work.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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There is no doubt the household charge has been a shambles from its conception to the sorry state in which it has left the Government. Senators should cast their minds back to the introduction in the House of the legislation giving effect to the charge when the Minister indicated, in a very arrogant and dismissive manner, that he was not minded to accept amendments tabled by my party, other parties and Independent Senators which proposed to make it easier for people to pay the charge and to increase the number of exemptions. This is part of the reason the Government finds itself in its current position. The crucial reason, however, is that many of those being asked to pay do not have the €100 required. Others are opposed in principle to the concept of the charge.

The Minister stated this morning that 29 sack loads of payments had been received. He will need 29,000 black sacks full of payments if he is to reach his target of a 50% payment rate. I do not believe his target will be met. It is high time he stopped engaging in nonsense and bully boy tactics, came clean and stated the charge is a mistake. The Minister for Education and Science put up his hands and admitted he made a mistake on the DEIS schools before rowing back partially on his proposed measures. It is time the Minister, rather than continuing to show arrogance, put up his hands and admitted he has made a mistake.

At the weekend, the Minister indicated he would send out council staff to try to collect the charge or to remind people it was due. This morning, I was informed by the city manager in Waterford City Council that he has not received any instructions from the Department or anyone else to use council staff for any such purposes. The Government has issued an idle threat.

I support the proposed amendment to the Order of Business and call on the Government to stop issuing threats, admit its mistakes, produce its so-called progressive property tax bill and allow us to debate it. Sinn Féin will introduce a Bill in the Dáil later today seeking to have the household charge legislation repealed and requesting that the Government produce alternative proposals. Other options on the table would enable us to raise money in ways other than the unfair and unjust household charge.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I commend and congratulate the 400,000 people who have already paid the household charge. Let us remember that they are citizens of this country. I also commend the several hundred thousand other citizens who are in the process of paying and will have paid by Saturday. The €100 charge amounts to €2 per week. The Government could have easily increased the standard rate of tax and probably generated significantly more revenue but did not do so because we are trying to be as fair as possible.

The Government has been accused of arrogance. One organisation that has displayed unbridled arrogance on this issue is An Post which wanted €5 to process the €100 charge. It has now indicated it will process payments for €1. Why did it not do so from the outset? People could then have paid the household charge at their local post office.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not blame An Post.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I do not see people paying their motor tax in the post office.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Post offices are being closed down.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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People have a responsibility to pay their taxes and abide by a law that was enacted by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Spoken like a true Tory.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I would not have any problem if the Leader were to decide to have a debate on the household charge. There is a difference between right and wrong and I appeal to citizens to do the right thing, as I know most of them will.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Senator Conway is engaging in wishful thinking.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with many colleagues that the deadline for paying the €100 household charge should be extended to 1 September. The issue has been badly handled from the outset and no amount of burying one's heads in the sand - I refer in particular to the Minister in this regard - will solve the difficulties that have been created. Will the Leader confirm that the decision to impose the household charge was made by the Government on the basis of a recommendation from the Minister and not imposed on us by the troika, as the Minister has repeatedly argued, most recently this morning? I ask for such confirmation by way of clarification for Members and the general public.

Yesterday was a black day in Cavan because, as of midnight, the town no longer has an operational barracks for the first time since 1780. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Defence to the House to answer some simple questions. On Monday, an Army march out of Clonmel Barracks was witnessed by tens of thousands of people. Similarly, the Army will march out of Mullingar Barracks later today in front of thousands of people. Why did it not march out of Dún Uí Neill barracks in Cavan? Why were the gates locked while the flag was lowered and the "Last Post" played? Why were families of serving members of the Defence Forces and former soldiers, some of whom retired only a couple of weeks ago, refused entry to the barracks? Why did a proud band of men and women not march out of the barracks yesterday?

Photo of Paul BradfordPaul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the announcement yesterday of the date for the referendum on the fiscal treaty. I hope the House will be able to have a substantial debate on the pros and cons of the treaty as well as a debate on the referendum Bill. An unfortunate aspect of recent referendums on Europe has been the lecturing and hectoring we have had on both sides of the argument as we sought to force the electorate to make its decision by frightening it into accepting or rejecting the relevant proposals. On this occasion, the Government's aim must be to ensure every citizen is fully aware of the content of the treaty and sufficient information will be sent to each and every voter. We need a proactive and generous debate on the pros and cons of the treaty. At the end of that process, I believe Irish people will overwhelmingly decide that it is in the interests of the country to say "Yes". The Irish people will overwhelmingly decide that it is in the interests of the country that we should say "Yes".

Anybody living in the real world knows that there are difficulties in respect of the household charge and that lessons can be learned. We can learn a lesson as well from the way we do our work from a parliamentary perspective. My recollection of the debate in this House is that it was much too rushed, and this has been symptomatic of debates in both Houses. There are time limits put on Second Stage speeches and on Committee Stage, while amendments are being guillotined. If we want to take our job seriously and highlight problems before they become a crisis, we need to discuss them in these Houses. It is not good enough that Ministers come in here and attempt to ensure that the debate is shut down quickly. This should be a House of debate, and if it takes a day or a week to pass a Bill, that is what we are elected to do.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Have you a question for the Leader?

Photo of Paul BradfordPaul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I hate reminding my colleagues of the fadó, fadó stuff. In the 1980s and the early 1990s, people were given sufficient time in this House to make their case. If a Senator required 20 minutes to speak on Second Stage, it was given. Now the whole thing is compressed into a two or three minute contribution. Is it any wonder that we then try to deal with problems afterwards? If we had sufficient debating space, we could have already resolved them.

Photo of Feargal QuinnFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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Last night's debate in Trinity College was worthy of attendance, and it was attended by many Members from this House. I congratulate Senator Bacik for managing to explain the position of the Seanad to those who were there. I support Senator Mac Conghail's proposed changes to invite other speakers in here in future. The Leader was there last night and he heard the words of praise for the changes he made in the past year. I believe that there is a strong case to be made for a strong Seanad in the future. That case is in our hands in this House. It was very well made last night. We were taken through an interesting historical debate from ancient Greece and Rome to the Americas in 1787 and right up to the 20th and 21st centuries. There is a very strong case to be made for a second Chamber to scrutinise legislation, to make sure that we do not leave everything in the hands of one House. That case was started yesterday, but we can make it in the future in here.

I would like the Leader to find time to debate the issue of those who are dying because they have not received the available organs for transplant. We may have read last week that organ transplants increased last year from 12 per million to 20 per million, which is very high, but 20 per million in Ireland is a tiny number. Another country of our size, Croatia, has 30 transplants per million, while it is 34 per million in Spain. There are changes taking place all around the world. I am not saying it has to be presumed consent. We debated this a few years ago and it was adjourned. There are other things taking place. In New Jersey, there are plans to let the health insurers refuse transplant cover to anybody who does not sign an organ donation card.

We should have a debate here. People are dying in Ireland because we have not got a high enough rate of organ donation. We can do something about it and this House can lead the way.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Fine Gael)
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We need a dose of realism in respect of the household charge. I said this before in respect of the payment of commercial rates. People who are paying commercial rates should place on their front door or front window the amount of rates that they are paying to local authorities. One might walk into a paint shop to buy paint and paintbrushes. The shop might be only 1,000 sq. ft., but the shop owner will be paying €9,000 per annum in commercial rates. The bill for commercial rates in a shoe shop might be €22,000. We need a small dose of realism in respect of the €100 charge. By the end of the year, almost 2 million people will have medical cards, and this is a clear indication that despite the pressures on the State, the Government is making sure that there are adequate provisions on health care and social welfare. There are difficulties in certain areas, but they are being dealt with. However, I do think a dose of realism is required.

I spoke some time ago about the need for the introduction of a patient medication card, which is very similar to a Visa card. Everybody would have it and their files would be stored on computers, so we could eliminate giving out prescriptions and we would have immediate access to medical records. An argument is being made that it will take us ten years to implement that, but I do not agree. Over 40% of people will be on medical cards by the end of the year.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That matter is suitable for the Adjournment.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Fine Gael)
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It is an issue that should be raised on the Adjournment because with over 40% of people having medical cards by the end of the year, we have a huge amount of information already available on computer. Therefore, the introduction of patient medication cards should not be delayed and we should set a clear target for implementation during the lifetime of this Government.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator Burke on the pressures being borne by businesses that are paying commercial rates at the moment, and the need for a real debate on that issue in conjunction with the household charge issue. That is why it is imperative for the Minister to come to the House today to discuss both issues.

The household charge issue is a chaotic shambles. It has been dreadfully handled by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. The Minister, who was so arrogant when he was here during the debates on the household charge and the septic tank issue, has now been shown that we were right in what we were saying, which is that the people would not accept the road he was going down. An extension of the period for paying the household charge is required. The Minister should listen, because people should not be criminalised after next Saturday when they are not in a position to pay. The Minister should give an extension, explain to the people where the money is going to go and bring about the ability to pay clauses or criteria where those who genuinely cannot afford to pay, do not have to pay.

There are people who are saying that they will not pay, such as some Deputies and perhaps even some Senators. They say that they will not pay the household charge and they are telling others not to pay it. They are telling other people to break the law. That is not right. How can somebody who is earning €92,000 say he or she is not going to pay the household charge and tell another individual earning €10,000 not to pay it as well?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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What about the septic tank charges?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption. Have you a question for the Leader?

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Are the Deputies concerned-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Have you a question for the Leader?

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I am making this point because it is important. Will the Deputies concerned be there to lift the fines or the increased interest for those individuals they are telling to break the law? They are forcing them down a cul-de-sac. That is irresponsible politics. It is playing politics with this issue. It is not being real with the facts.

We need to extend the deadline and bring in the clauses for individuals who genuinely cannot pay. I do not think that clause should be extended to any Member of these Houses. We have to be realistic about where we are going-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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You are way overtime.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----because in the North of Ireland and in England------

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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You are overtime. You can make these points in the debate.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----the average household pays £1,300 sterling. They get the services-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Resume your seat.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----but we have to be realistic with where we are going in this debate. Let us get the Minister into the House to explain the situation.

Photo of Pat O'NeillPat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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I agree with most of what Senator Ó Domhnaill said. It is a disgrace that Members of this House or the other House call for people not to pay the household charge.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Could the Senator name those individuals?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Neill, without interruption. Have you a question for the Leader?

Photo of Pat O'NeillPat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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I have a question.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Which Senator is advocating non-payment?

Photo of Pat O'NeillPat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Two issues were raised by Senators and I would like to point out to Senator Cullinane, who spoke about arrogance, that arrogance is part of his party's second name. Look at the arrogance shown by his colleague about the printer cartridges. That was total arrogance.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Is that the best the Senator can throw at us?

Photo of Pat O'NeillPat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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He also mentioned threats from the Government. His party knows a lot about threats.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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This is not relevant to the Order of Business. Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Will the Leader write to the EPA? The weather is very good and the winter is gone but we should get a report on the 23 smokeless zones in the country that local authorities are asked by the EPA to enforce. What enforcement is taking place? I have had reports about three new areas in certain towns that have been included but there is no enforcement. In other areas that are in smokeless zones, registered, hard-working, local fuel merchants are called to by the council to have their registers inspected while fly by night fuel merchants are going into estates to sell bituminous coal to people at a cheaper rate and putting the local merchants out of business. It is time the EPA reported to this House on the enforcement of smokeless coal zones.

Senator Wilson mentioned the household charge. I remind him it is part of the agreement his Government and party signed with the troika.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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That is not true.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Untrue.

Photo of Pat O'NeillPat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Will I get the record for the Senator?

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Do that.

Photo of Pat O'NeillPat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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I will.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Can we have a copy?

Photo of John CrownJohn Crown (Independent)
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Could the Leader seek clarification from the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade on several issues that were raised before and one additional issue?

Is there ongoing monitoring by officials of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade of the situation of Bahraini medics, who now face their second trial having gone through a military trial, despite the Bahraini prosecutorial authorities having stated some time ago that the charges would likely be dropped? To refresh the memories of my colleagues these are nurses, doctors and hospital administrators, some of whom have an educational link with this country, and who it appears were arrested for no crime other than looking after the victims of a civil insurrection that was taking place in Bahrain.

Will the Leader ask the Minister if a formal representation has been made to the Iranian Embassy with respect to Pastor Nadarkhani, the Christian minister in Iran who has been sentenced to death for apostasy, denying what is perceived to be the one true faith in Iran? Has there been any formal representation on this? I bring to the attention of my colleagues in the Seanad that, while I am not sure this is cause and effect, some weeks after I mentioned this previously, the Iranian Government found occasion to criticise the human rights record of the Republic of Ireland in the United Nations, an extraordinary example of finger pointing. Having said that, I would like to know if any representations have been made on behalf of this brave man.

I was not here last week, I was at a conference on breast cancer, but I would like to associate myself with some of the remarks made about the anti-Semitic murders in Toulouse last week. When we read the circumstances of how the Sandler family were almost exterminated and eight year old Myriam Monsenego was pursued into a schoolyard by a gunman who held her by the hair while he shot her in the head for no other crime than being Jewish, it is important to recognise that the spectre of specific anti-Jewish anti-Semitism is alive and well in Europe and in our society. While I totally understand people have legitimate concerns and advocate for rights of other ethnic groups such as Palestinian Muslims and Christians in the Middle East, I ask that people think long and hard before allowing themselves to be associated with organisations such as Hamas, which have a specifically anti-Semitic agenda.

Photo of John KellyJohn Kelly (Labour)
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On the household charge, it would be wise to push out the deadline by a couple of months. There are vulnerable people who have been listening to irresponsible legislators advising them to break the law and I pointed out yesterday that there are people who pay their bills weekly by buying stamps in the post office. As a former community welfare officer, I can say that at the moment the CWO service is inundated with people looking for help to pay the charge.

We are fast approaching the holiday season and many elderly people have received letters from the HSE telling them the home help will soon be on holiday and they must make alternative arrangements because there is no cover for them. I have raised this before. There is cover for them if the Minister for Health and the Department are willing to take on board my simple proposal. We have thousands of unemployed carers on social welfare. They should be taken on through a community employment scheme, which would cost the taxpayer €25 per week and get 20 hours of service for it. That amounts to €1.77 per hour to take on carers in this way.

Could I ask for a show of hands as to who is paying the household tax this week?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is completely out of order.

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom labhairt faoin reifreann. I note the change of terminology from the Government side of the Seanad, with Senator Bacik talking about a referendum on the reform of the Seanad.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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On the future of the Seanad.

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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The Senator said "reform" but "future" is also good. Is the Taoiseach changing his position on that?

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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The Labour Party's position has not changed.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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The Labour Party's position remains the same.

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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We welcome the announcement yesterday about the treaty on the fiscal compact. I note the rhetoric has started already with Senator O'Brien calling it a treaty about Europe. It is not about Europe, it is about a fiscal compact and it is important we stick to the facts on that. The compact will impose more austerity and I call on the Government-----

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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There will be no austerity if we reject the treaty. Sinn Féin economic policy will save us all.

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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As my former teacher, Sr. Price, used to say, empty vessels make most noise. Will the Leader give an indication of when the wording of the referendum question will be available? It is important we have a wide and broad debate on this because it will impose spending cuts of €6 billion. We have seen that Sinn Féin are not the only people who oppose the treaty. The French Socialist Party opposes it, as do the German Social Democrats and the Dutch Labour Party, sister parties of the Labour Party in Europe. It might be interesting to get some members of those parties to come over to take part in the debate.

We have not had a debate on the Mahon report and I call for a debate on it before the recess. It is being debated for three days in the Dáil this week but we will not be discussing it until after the recess and that is not acceptable. If we must come in next Tuesday and Wednesday, so be it.

Photo of Terry BrennanTerry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Ábhar a labhair mé faoi cheana féin sa Teach seo. I have raised the issue of diesel laundering in this House on several occasions. I congratulate the gardaí and customs officials for the discovery of the well-hidden diesel laundering plant in Virginia, County Cavan.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is being raised by Senator Whelan on the Adjournment. He might give the Senator some time.

Photo of Terry BrennanTerry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate them because 10 million litres of diesel were being laundered per annum at a financial loss of €5 million to the State. I congratulate all concerned.

Photo of Labhrás Ó MurchúLabhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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In response to Senator Bacik's point, relations between Ireland and China, which have been enhanced in recent times, have huge potential for Ireland. During the years I have had the opportunity to visit China and see the improvements and progress made and the openness that is developing in its society. Many might not be aware that Ireland enjoys iconic status in the diplomatic folklore of China because it was Frank Aiken, as Minister for External Affairs, who proposed the entry of China into the United Nations. At the same time, however, human rights must be sacrosanct. I wrote to the Taoiseach before he travelled to China and outlined a number of human rights issues which I asked him to raise with his hosts. I hope that was done.

I also raised an issue nearer home yesterday, the position of Marion Price who is currently being held, virtually in internment. She is isolated in the medical unit of a Northern Ireland prison. Although she is very sick, she is handcuffed to a wheelchair. That is not the generosity of spirit we associate with, and support, in the Good Friday Agreement. It is incumbent on us, in the same way as we raise issues relating to China and elsewhere, to raise such issues at home also. If we use human rights in bartering for political expediency or progress, we make a huge mistake. It is only when we do not do so that we make a contribution to world peace. I again call for the release of Marion Price. It could, however, be a matter of too little, too late, which will not help Ireland. She needs urgent medical attention and her family to comfort her. She endured enough trauma during her hunger strike when she was force-fed for 200 days in a British prison. What do we mean by human rights? Let her go home now.

Photo of Michael MullinsMichael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Despite the impassioned plea made by Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú on behalf of Marion Price, Members of the House are probably not very familiar with the case. I ask the Leader to take up the matter with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. Obviously, there is a real human rights issue involved which should be addressed. I support the call made by Senator Ivana Bacik for a debate on the death penalty and human rights issues. The human rights issue raised by Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú should be part of that debate, as should the issue raised yesterday and today by Senator David Norris with regard to what happened in Holland, as well as that raised by Senator John Crown regarding the Bahraini doctors and Pastor Nadarkhani. I take the opportunity to compliment Kofi Annan on the progress he has made in the last few days in attempting to broker a peace solution in Syria. Given that 9,000 people have lost their lives there in the past year or so, it is incumbent on all sides to resolve the dispute. I call on President Assad to honour in good faith the verbal commitments and indications he has given that he is prepared to adhere to the agreement brokered by Kofi Annan whom I wish success in improving the situation in Syria.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, seek an extension to the deadline for payment of the household charge, as there is huge confusion. As Members mentioned yesterday, persons paying commercial rates are receiving mixed signals from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and their local council, depending on to whom they are talking. The Government is penalising the old and those who do not have access to computers. It is making them pay extra charges for paying the charge over the counter, which is obviously inequitable. A charge or tax must be equitable. I do not know how anybody can say it is equitable to expect a person living on an old age pension to pay the same as a Minister who has a fine big house. That is the reason people are rebelling against the charge. It is said there is no link between the charge and the issue of debt write-down and paying back bondholders, but there is. The charge is being imposed because we are being forced to pay back these debts by our European colleagues. Members opposite say there is no link between the two and that the moneys raised will be used to fund services, but the money is going into the Central Fund and will be used to pay off debt.

I commend the Deputy Leader for the organisation of the debate last night. This House has a role to play in a number of issues. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport is organising the Gathering to commemorate the visit of John F. Kennedy to this country. The Seanad could play a role, whereby Members of the Westminster Parliament, the US Congress and the Parliament of Canada could be invited to come here to discuss issues of mutual concern, including to the Irish diaspora. Perhaps the Leader might take this suggestion on board.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The household charge issue has been unnecessarily hyped. Two falsehoods have been mentioned this morning. There was a reference in the memorandum of understanding signed by the previous Administration and in that respect, the Government's hands are tied.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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That is not true.

Photo of John GilroyJohn Gilroy (Labour)
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It is true.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It is.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Paul Coghlan to continue, without interruption.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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One cannot make an order to allow the money to be paid through the post office. The Opposition is well aware, as we are, that there are procurement policy rules-----

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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That is nonsense.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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As I understand it, there would have to be a tendering process.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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All of the financial institutions would be available to take part. One can buy a postal order. It is very simple. Therefore, let us not over-play this aspect. I am afraid there are games taking place; as was said by a previous speaker, if there was a show of hands, I do not believe there is a single person who will not pay it.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Senator John Kelly also asked for an extension.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Everyone will pay it. I encourage people to do so. There is no need for a show of hands.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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When the household charge was announced, Fianna Fáil fully agreed that it was necessary to raise taxation, but the Government has given appalling leadership on the issue. It was unclear from the start how the charge was going to be collected and what would be done with the money raised. This issue has been raised in the public domain, but my concern relates to what the Government is doing behind the scenes. Is there incompetence? On the DEIS schools issue, we had the debacle of the Minister being obliged to row back on the changes announced. Did he ever visit a DEIS school?

Senator John Kelly was very logical. Fianna Fáil agrees that the deadline for payment of the household charge should be extended. Ministers are now saying the matter has been mishandled. The Minister of State, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, has said mistakes were made in the way the charge was handled, including in the distribution of leaflets to all households. She has said the only other option for the Government is to increase income taxes, an avenue it does not wish to pursue.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I guarantee that the Government will increase income taxes before long. I wish to name the Ministers who have a problem with how the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government is presenting the issue.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Name and shame them.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, said she thought that Big Phil-----

Photo of Michael MullinsMichael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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That is not what the Senator called him previously.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I never knew the man before he came to this House. He is certainly an awesome character.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Two more Senators have indicated that they wish to contribute. The Senator is already over time.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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With all due respect, you should have got the others who spoke earlier to stick to the two minute time limit.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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It is very hard to include 30 Senators within a period of 55 minutes.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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In fairness, the Cathaoirleach is doing a good job.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Members only have two minutes each and the Senator is over time.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, said she believed Big Phil was making arrangements in order that the money could be paid at the post office.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is way over time.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Deputy Phil Hogan is the Minister.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, Minister Phil. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, said on radio that people liked to get bills.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator can make these points during the debate.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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My point is that the people are totally confused because of the lack of team work and efficiency in encouraging them to pay this tax.

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I endorse everything that has been said on this side of the House, and by some Members on the other side, about extending the deadline. I am doing this because there seems to be a view abroad that because it is only €2 per week, it really should not be any difficulty. I heard Senator Conway talking about people paying motor tax in the local post office. I live in Drumshanbo which is eight miles from Carrick-on-Shannon. I have met old age pensioners who are living alone who are already being put to the pin of their collar concerning heating costs and the reduction of various social welfare allowances over the past 12 months. They also have issues concerning windows and doors because essential repair grants are no longer available since this Government got rid of them. The elderly have nowhere to turn.

Photo of Pat O'NeillPat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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That is untrue.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mooney, without interruption.

Photo of Pat O'NeillPat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Extra money was allocated. Come on.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mooney, without interruption. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Under this Government's watch, it has been reduced to the point where it is not happening. There is now a need to seriously consider having an extension, especially for the elderly who do not have the capacity to pay. With tears in their eyes, they are telling me about this dilemma. They pay their taxes and also use the post office more frequently that the rest of the population. There is, therefore, a real need to re-examine this problem. The Department of Social Protection has operated a scheme for years whereby even if there is a court case pending against a claimant, it will allow for a schedule of repayments, some as low as €10 or €20 per week, which goes through the post office. Could some system not be operated to allow for an instalment plan that would be much more attractive than the current one?

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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It would be fairer to disband it.

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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No, I do not agree with disbandment. I understand why the Government is trying to do this, but disbandment is a separate issue.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Michael MullinsMichael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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What about the pension services?

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Leader could address this final point. Over the decades, Fine Gael has always prided itself on having consolidated democracy. Surely the Leader must be aware that, as a result of all the public unrest that has been whipped up by Sinn Féin and the Independents over the past three months, there is now a real threat to our democratic institutions.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mooney is over time.

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It is true and a fact that every time an issue arises-----

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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We are standing up for the people the Senator just talked about. We are showing leadership.

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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No, it is populist politics of the worst kind. That is what it is, nothing more.

A Senator:

That is what people voted for.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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People are going to go to jail for not paying this tax. What about that?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is over time.

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It is like the grand old Duke of York, leading people to the top of the hill and bringing them back down again.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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What about Deputy Ó Cuív?

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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They are being led adrift.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The Senator has some neck. His party subverted the State.

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Those who are criticising this tax are the very ones who will not stand by the unfortunate people who will be penalised.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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What about Bertie and Pádraig Flynn?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mooney, without interruption.

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. I am asking the Leader to ask the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to consider revising the deadline when he sees the figures coming in on Friday. I ask the Leader to respond accordingly.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The Senator has some neck.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Three voices from the grave.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I do not like to be defensive but I find it difficult to take Fianna Fáil politicians accusing the Government of incompetence behind closed doors in the context of recent weeks.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Noone have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I was going to bring up a completely different issue concerning health, but I had to speak on this matter also. I agree with other Senators who said that the message needs to go out that services are going to be curtailed in local communities.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Expenditure is going to be cut anyway.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Noone have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader convey to the powers that be that we need to tell the public that services will be curtailed and expenditure may need to be cut.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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We need to cut expenses.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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We also need to raise revenue, however.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It is a disgrace.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call the Leader to reply.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, Senator Noone has been treated appallingly.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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She is well able to handle it.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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She gives it but does not like to take it.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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They are like a group of dogs.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Can we have the Leader, without interruption, please?

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Leader of the Opposition, Senator Darragh O'Brien, raised the question of time for debating the fiscal compact treaty and the relevant legislation. I hope to meet the group leaders tomorrow to discuss the timing involved, but I can assure the House that we will have more than ample time to discuss that matter. It looks like we will be sitting for five days in the last week in April, Monday to Friday. I am putting Members on notice that it is likely at this stage because we will have so many matters to discuss, including the Social Welfare Bill and Pensions Bill.

I will endeavour to arrange for a debate on mortgage arrears when we return after the Easter recess. I understand that the Taoiseach is chairing a Cabinet sub-committee on that subject, so we will have more details on it after Easter.

As happened yesterday, today's debate has been dominated by the household charge. I stated yesterday that paying the household charge will not mean an increase in services. However, failing to collect the charge will certainly mean reduced services. That is a matter of fact. In the budget, the Government tried to recognise the pain that people had already taken in previous budgets. We did not raise income tax and did not reduce primary social welfare rates. We reversed cuts made to the minimum wage and increased the exemption threshold for the universal charge, thus removing over 330,000 people from it. In addition, we increased mortgage interest relief for first-time buyers squeezed by high mortgage repayments after buying at the height of the bubble. That is what happened in the budget. These choices had to be made but we had no choice concerning the household charge, despite what the Opposition may say. It was solemnly agreed in the EU-IMF deal which was signed up to by our predecessors as a measure to be introduced in 2012. We had no choice therefore and we know that it will not be done in the fairest way in its first year, but we can say that we are on a path towards a fairer way of doing it in the coming years. When the country has a fair and progressive property tax, we must bear in mind that it will help prevent a future property bubble. It will also help the country to broaden its income base to protect against a devastating collapse in revenue, such as the one which was partly responsible for our current problems. I addressed the household charge comprehensively yesterday and have dealt with it again today. I hope the majority of the public will pay the charge on time.

Senator Bacik and other Members have raised the question of human rights in China and elsewhere, as well as the application of the death penalty in so many countries. I know the Taoiseach has agreed to raise those matters with the Chinese authorities on his current visit there.

Senators Mac Conghail and Quinn referred to distinguished persons addressing the Seanad, and I will raise that at the next meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Senator Mac Conghail also called for the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, to attend the House to address the critical review of the amalgamation of State agencies. I will endeavour to arrange for the Minister to come here to address that matter in due course.

Senator Comiskey referred to the moves by Ulster Bank on tracker mortgages, which are to be welcomed. He said that other banks should do likewise and we would all agree with that.

Senator Leyden mentioned separating the household charge from the fiscal compact, which is very important. I am glad that the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs will be addressing the fiscal compact treaty. This House gave the lead in that regard by having a four-hour debate on the subject, as well as a presentation in the audiovisual room.

Senator O'Keeffe referred to the public consultation committee which will have its launch at 12.30 p.m. I hope as many Members of the House as possible will attend the launch. It is a way of brining the citizen close to the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is to be and has been welcomed by many. We will be having further consultations in the coming months.

Senator Susan O'Keeffe also raised the question of domestic violence and the need for greater access to accommodation for those affected, especially children. The Minister of State with responsibility for housing, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, will be in the House shortly and some of these points can be raised with her. I will certainly raise the problem in Kildare with the Minister for Health.

Senator Cáit Keane referred to the Government's acceptance of the Fianna Fáil Bill dealing with the Financial Services Ombudsman, which I am sure all Members will welcome. The Government is willing to accept good legislation brought forward by other parties. The Senator also called for a debate on the Freedom of Information Act which I will try to arrange.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson raised the question of barracks closures and asked why there had not been a public march in Cavan. I will try to ascertain the position from the Minister for Finance. I take the opportunity to praise the contribution of the Defence Forces which have accepted more rationalisation than almost any other sector of the public service.

Senator Feargal Quinn raised the issue of organ donation, as he has on several occasions. I will try to arrange a debate on it with the relevant Minister after Easter.

Senator Colm Burke referred to the burden of commercial rates on small businesses. I take his point. As the Cathaoirleach said, the matter of medical cards is one that could be raised on the Adjournment. I, therefore, invite the Senator to submit his motion for discussion on the Adjournment.

Senator John Crown drew attention to the plight of the Bahraini doctors and Pastor Nadarkhani. My information is that ongoing representations are being made by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. I will certainly bring the matter to the Minister's attention again.

Senator John Kelly spoke about carers and community employment schemes. The Minister for Social Protection will be in the House after Easter. This will provide an opportunity for the Senator to raise these points with her.

I am sure we all join Senator Terry Brennan in congratulating the Garda and Customs officers on their success in tackling diesel laundering in County Cavan.

Senator Michael Mullins spoke about the situation in Syria and Mr. Kofi Annan's efforts to negotiate an agreement. We all hope to see peace in that land in the not too distant future.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That a debate on the extension of the deadline for payment of the household tax and the inclusion of the Post Office as a method of payment be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It is.

Amendment put:

The Seanad Divided:

For the motion: 19 (Thomas Byrne, John Crown, David Cullinane, Mark Daly, Terry Leyden, Marc MacSharry, Paschal Mooney, David Norris, Trevor Ó Clochartaigh, Brian Ó Domhnaill, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Darragh O'Brien, Denis O'Donovan, Ned O'Sullivan, Averil Power, Feargal Quinn, Kathryn Reilly, Mary White, Diarmuid Wilson)

Against the motion: 30 (Ivana Bacik, Paul Bradford, Terry Brennan, Colm Burke, Eamonn Coghlan, Paul Coghlan, Michael Comiskey, Martin Conway, Maurice Cummins, Jim D'Arcy, John Gilroy, Jimmy Harte, Aideen Hayden, Fidelma Healy Eames, James Heffernan, Imelda Henry, Lorraine Higgins, Caít Keane, John Kelly, Denis Landy, Fiach MacConghail, Rónán Mullen, Michael Mullins, Catherine Noone, Susan O'Keeffe, Pat O'Neill, Tom Shehan, Jillian van Turnhout, John Whelan, Katherine Zappone)

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O'Keeffe..

Amendment declared lost.

12:00 pm

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Due to an omission to vote on the part of Senator Brennan the result of the vote has been amended to Tá, 19; Níl 30.

Order of Business agreed to.