John Kelly (Labour)
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It is 12.15 a.m. I much appreciate the fact that the Minister has taken time out to be present to deal with the serious, urgent and potentially dangerous situation that is unfolding in County Roscommon. On Monday, 14 firefighters were dismissed for failure to attend a breathing apparatus refresher course. The reason they refused to attend it is because the national proposal on the matter has not been agreed, yet Roscommon County Council wants to proceed with an approach that would result in firefighters passing or failing the breathing apparatus course with the consequent risk of losing their job. I tend to agree with the firefighters.

As of yesterday, there was an interim agreement in the Labour Relations Commission that is valid until 1 December. The firefighters in Roscommon need to ballot on the same proposal. Today, 14 more firefighters in County Roscommon were dismissed. There is now no emergency cover in County Roscommon. We had a fire in my area where only five firefighters were mobilised, because that is all that was left, and we had to bring in a unit from another area to help put out the fire. As of tomorrow, Roscommon County Council wants to bring in the Army to put in a piecemeal service that is not trained to the same level as the firefighters. It also wants to put the lives of Army personnel at risk. I am sure their wives too would have something to say on the matter.

The approach of Roscommon County Council is very heavy handed. It is bordering on bullying. Men with 32 years service in their early 50s are now being told by management that if they fail a course, they are no longer considered useful in the fire service. That is outlandish. According to The Irish Times the answer of Roscommon County Council is that even with half of the workforce in the fire service it is able to cope, which begs the question that if it is able to cope with half the fire service why we need as many as we have. Is this just an excuse on its behalf? It is absolutely ludicrous.

As I mentioned recently in the Seanad, in most cases across the country most of the chief fire officers and assistant chief fire officers - the statistic is approximately 90% - never did fire training. They were never firemen. They were engineers that did a four week course and who all of a sudden knew everything about the fire service, more than someone who has 32 years service in the fire brigade. As I said yesterday, some of them never put out a cigarette, let alone a fire.

I will raise this point again with the Minister, namely, that it is time we had an integrated national fire and ambulance service. In the North of Ireland there is one chief fire officer and two assistant fire officers covering a population of 1.7 million. We have 30 chief fire officers and 300 assistant chief fire officers for 4.7 million people. It is an absolute waste of money. The system is top heavy and we must address it.

I am dealing with young and middle aged firefighters with young families in my county, some of whose wives are not in the best of health for one reason or another. Neighbours of mine in their early 50s have 32 years service in the fire service. They have more experience than any chief fire officer ever had. I have the greatest of respect for firemen. I know the same is true of the Minister. I urge him to intervene and to bring commonsense back to the situation because it has been lacking in the entire process. The first step that needs to be taken is to reinstate the firefighters who have been dismissed. They are willing to negotiate. If it is agreed at national level that one can either pass or fail the training they are willing to go along with that but, as yet, there is no agreement. If the Minister does that we will avert a national strike. I would be ashamed to say that if we end up with a national strike over this issue, the one county we can blame for it will be my county, while in other counties they are deciding to go with the old system of not passing or failing but having more refresher training. It is sad that we cannot just deal with the issue. One county can deal with it, but another county is trying to make a name for itself nationally and bring the entire country to a standstill.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I regret the situation that has evolved in Roscommon. The fire services, funded and managed by local authorities, are one of the finest community services. Roscommon County Council has six fire brigades which are manned by 56 retained firefighters in Ballaghaderreen, Boyle, Castlerea, Elphin, Roscommon and Strokestown. It is most regrettable, as Senator Kelly has said, that despite all the efforts by the parties and the machinery of the State we find ourselves in a situation where a number of firefighters have had to be stood down from duty.

Competence in the use of breathing apparatus is one of the basic requirements of carrying out the functions of a modern firefighter in a safe and effective manner. Initial training in the use of breathing apparatus provides firefighters with the necessary skills and knowledge to use breathing apparatus in a competent and safe manner. Breathing apparatus is a basic tool. It enables firefighters to enter smoke-filled buildings to search for casualties or to get close to the source of a fire for effective intervention. The Department has published national guidance to assist fire authorities to provide consistent and safe training in the use of breathing apparatus. The relevant documents are The Use of Breathing Apparatus in the Fire Service, published in 2007, and Guidance on the Provision and Assessment of Breathing Apparatus Training, published in 2010.

Breathing apparatus training involves both instruction to impart knowledge and practical exercises to enable learners to apply the knowledge gained in a series of progressive learning activities. It is also important that skill levels of firefighters are maintained and refreshed on a regular basis. For this reason, all firefighters are required to undertake breathing apparatus refresher training every two years. Furthermore, there are specific safety issues associated with firefighting and local authorities have statutory responsibilities for their workers under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005. This includes ensuring that firefighters are sufficiently skilled and trained to undertake their duties safely for their own sake and for that of their colleagues and members of the general public.

Such training is an integral part of the fire service and must be undertaken, as required by fire authorities, by all personnel in order to enable them to comply with their statutory obligations. Firefighters who may be unsuccessful on a first attempt at reaching the required level of competency are afforded every opportunity to develop proficiency and demonstrate the required competence and knowledge. I understand that local authorities have given assurances that every effort will be made to address any competency deficiencies identified in refresher training in the shortest possible time - before the end of the training course, if that possibility exists. I note what Senator Kelly has said in respect of this matter in the context of firefighters in Roscommon.

The Labour Relations Commission has set out a set of interim guidance points in respect of this matter. I greatly welcome this. In my opinion, those guidance points form a good basis for moving forward from the current position. I strongly encourage those involved at management and union level to resolve the existing problems for the sake of members of the public, for whom the fire service is provided. I assure Senator Kelly that I will make inquiries in order to discover what progress has been made by the Labour Relations Commission and others to advance the case relating to the people to whom he Senator refers. I will do everything possible to ensure that there is an adequate fire service in Roscommon and to bring together the personnel who have been stood down and the management of the county council in order that they might find a satisfactory solution.

John Kelly (Labour)
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I appreciate the Minister's reply, which came about as a result of the Labour Relations Commission sitting to deal with this matter yesterday. There are a couple of issues to which I must refer. A number of fire chiefs throughout the country have failed the breathing apparatus course and some were obliged to travel to the UK in order to obtain accreditation so that they might remain on the job. I do not know if a similar process will apply in respect of our experienced firefighters. I have an issue with those who run the course being responsible for deciding whether someone passes or fails. I am of the view that an independent body should make the decision in this regard.

It has been stated that further training will be given in order to ensure that the firefighters to whom I refer will pass the course. I have been led to believe that firefighters are obliged to pay for every course they attend after the first refresher course. I have many concerns with regard to this matter. Perhaps the Minister can intervene with the county manager in order that some common sense might be brought to bear and that the matter might be resolved swiftly. I do not want it to escalate any further.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I assure Senator Kelly that I will bring his concerns to the attention of the appropriate authorities tomorrow.