Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Céad fáilte roimh an Aire. Tá mé cinnte go bhfuil sé thar a bheith gnóthach na laethanta seo agus seans go raibh a chluasa te níos luaithe inniu, mar bhíomar ag caint faoi sa díospóireacht a bhí againn maidir le cúrsaí Gaeilge.

I am sure the Minister had warm ears earlier when he was in the House during the debate on the Irish language strategy and the important role he has to play in that regard. I appreciate him taking the time to take this matter.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Senator is welcome.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I would like to raise the need for the Minister to clarify the Government's intention on the future of two-teacher schools and their importance for maintaining a vibrant rural community. There are 570 two-teacher schools, which comprises one in six of the State's primary schools. The McCarthy report proposed to merge schools with fewer than 100 pupils but, as we have witnessed, while many of his recommendations made sense on paper, they had no logical place in the real world. The recommendation regarding rural schools did not make sense. Amalgamation will only achieve a mere 0.47% of McCarthy's suggested savings but at what price to communities?

The closure of schools tears the heart out of rural communities, as well as being detrimental to the quality of learning children receive. Research does not support many of the arguments on which policies of closure and amalgamation of small schools have been based and which form the basis of concerns about small schools being expressed currently. Study findings in the UK have shown that curriculum provision in small schools is similar to that which emerged in studies of large schools. Small schools have also been shown to make a positive contribution to their communities. Studies in the UK have shown that any savings made in closing a school can be offset by the cost in transporting students to larger schools and similar costs.

One of the reasons I have raised this issue is that I am based in the west and the proposals will hit that region, in particular. For example, 68 schools are under review in County Galway; 68 in County Mayo; 41 in County Roscommon; 20 in County Sligo; 41 in County Clare; and 60 in County Donegal. While this is an education issue, it is also a rural issue. Successive Governments have long neglected the west, as evidenced by the standards of our sewerage and water systems, our electricity infrastructure and the broadband service. The closure of rural schools will sustain this neglect. We experienced devastation following the closure of post offices. We need to protect small rural communities and retaining schools is essential in this regard.

Closing small national schools will also lead to increased class sizes, additional transport costs and a breakdown in community cohesion. Small schools are a central part of life in rural Ireland. Co-operation between schools as clusters can save money and can make the most of their resources without damaging the community. According to the Irish Primary Principals Network report on the future of small schools, such an approach has been successful in Sweden, Catalonia and France. I recommend that the Minister takes this report on board, as it highlights the value placed on these schools by their respective governments and that it often makes more sense to preserve such schools and their role in the community than to close them for short-term and illusory savings.

According to the report, teachers, students and communities would all prefer the status quo. Why would we change it and potentially do lasting damage to communities, many of which are under enough pressure as it is due to emigration and unemployment for the sake of tiny savings, which would be defrayed by transport and other costs anyway?

My experience of this issue results from the decisions made by previous Ministers for Education and ludicrous proposals under schemes such as DEIS where schools miles apart were clustered in groups that did not make any sense. Most of the resource teachers allocated under those schemes spent half their time in their cars travelling around the countryside. It is a different scenario in rural Ireland. I seek clarification on the Minister's current thinking on this issue. Will he take on board the rural nature of the issue?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I congratulate the Senator on his election for the first time to this Chamber.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank him for raising the matter, as it affords me the opportunity to outline to the Seanad the current position regarding the value for money review of small primary schools, which is part of the normal review processes undertaken by all Departments on an annual basis on selected areas of expenditure and which is being conducted in line with the standard procedures for such reviews. These procedures require that the views of stakeholders be obtained. The interest groups contacted included the school patron bodies, management bodies, teacher unions, national parents' council, Irish language groups and other groups who operate in the area of social inclusion. A public consultation process was also put in place.

The review will attempt to explore the general policy options for re-organisation of small schools, including the sharing of resources and clustering arrangements towards small schools.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for his comprehensive answer. I agree with him completely. We would welcome that engagement. It is very important that we would engage. The Department in the past has taken a very different approach and given directives on how things would be.

I seek further clarification on the wider dimension such as the language ethos of a school, for example, where there might be some schools in the Gaeltacht and others outside it. Will that be taken into consideration when clustering schools?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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For my part - and this is without prejudice to the report and whatever recommendations it may make - I feel different schools will have a different ethos. For example, it was brought to my attention when I attended the primary schools conference in Sligo that for the Reformed Church community in that part of the country small rural schools a far distance apart are very important to the maintenance of their Protestant ethos. We would respect that. Likewise, if one has a gaelscoil or a school in a Gaeltacht area then one would have to take that into account as well.

We will try to be as accommodating as possible, but as I indicated yesterday evening in a debate, this country has lost its economic sovereignty. This Republic is no longer in control of its cheque book. Everyone who works in this institution, every Deputy and every teacher in every school is now dependent on Professor Patrick Honohan the Governor of the Central Bank reporting on a fortnightly basis to the European Central Bank, which is the only bank that will lend us money at anything like reasonable rates, that we are meeting our targets and reducing the deficit between what we are generating by way of tax income on the one hand and what we are spending on the other. That gap is enormous. I will indicate the scale of the gap. The budget of the entire Department of Education and Skills, including salaries and everything else, is €8 billion in round figures. If we were to eliminate that, which I do not suggest for a moment that we would, we would still have a deficit of €1 billion.

We must regain our economic sovereignty as quickly as possible. Across the entire spectrum of expenditure we must look at everything from the point of view that we are spending money that we are not earning and the people who are lending us that money will only lend it on a continued basis until such time, in as short a time as possible, as we get our budget deficit down to 3%. That is the background that confronts every Minister and every Department.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Chair has provided latitude for Senator Conway to ask the Minister a question on the same issue. He should be very brief.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. What is the timeframe for the review on which the Minister is engaged? He proposes to engage with communities on a bottom-up approach. What structure does he propose to put in place to bring formality to that?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The timeframe is approximately 12 months. The process was initiated last October and there was a large number of responses from various groups which I outlined on the record so I will not repeat that. They will be evaluated by the group conducting the value for money review. The mechanism for value for money reports is the same regardless of the area of expenditure. The review was not designed specifically for rural schools with a population of 50 pupils or less. When I get the report I will consult informally with colleagues and decide on the best mechanism for consultation.

I am acutely aware of the sensitivity of the school in a rural community and how central it is to the network of communications that keeps such communities together. As an urban Deputy I must be acutely aware of the situation because I do not live in the same type of place as the two Senators who have spoken. Many people do and will continue to live there. They have lost supports in other areas. I will consult colleagues in the Labour Party, Fine Gael and the Opposition to see how we can proceed. Whatever the outcome, we need to get community support for whatever decision will be taken.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. I wish him every luck and success in his new brief. I accept that times are difficult but on a personal level I wish him the very best in his portfolio. He will bring much experience to the Department. I am certain he will do an excellent job.