Seán Haughey (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I very much welcome this opportunity to address the House and discuss education and training responses to the economic downturn. It is very clear to us all that as a result of global economic upheaval we are facing immense challenges not just as an economy, but as a society and a country. This is because we are not just experiencing a deep economic recession, we are also contending with a fiscal crisis. While difficult and painful decisions were made in the supplementary budget in April, the scale of the crisis in the public finances means that we face a very difficult budget for 2010 and for the coming years until the fiscal crisis is resolved. However, the Government is committed to taking the necessary difficult decisions to ensure the economy overcomes the present challenges and is placed on a secure and more sustainable footing.

Education and training is of fundamental importance, not only in responding to immediate challenges but to securing our country's long-term future. In addressing the economic downturn, one of the most significant issues is the rise in unemployment and to deal with this we must try to protect those jobs that we already have. We must also work to create and attract new jobs and we must have a clear vision of where we see the jobs of tomorrow. Education and training are key parts of the Government's strategy to protect, create and develop jobs.

Last year, the Government published Building Ireland's Smart Economy - A Framework for Sustainable Economic Renewal. That blueprint focused on key areas for action in securing our enterprise economy, promoting competitiveness and establishing Ireland as an innovation hub. Our ambitions for Ireland's smart economy and smart society will only be realised through the vision, originality, creativity and invention of our people. Education and training, and its relevance to the needs of individuals and employers will be key in this regard.

Skills are the engine room of the modern knowledge-based economy. Supporting citizens to develop the knowledge, skills and competences they need to be active and successful participants in the smart society is a central objective of the entire education and training system. The national skills strategy articulates this vision and sets out clear long-term objectives as to what Ireland's education and training system needs to deliver if we are to develop competitive advantage in the areas of skills, education and training. As the Minister of State with responsibility for lifelong learning in the Departments of Education and Science and Enterprise, Trade and Employment, I can readily attest to the importance of upskilling and reskilling, especially in these difficult economic times.

The Government is adopting a strategic approach in its education and training responses to the economic downturn, focusing on activation measures to keep people from becoming unemployed and to get people off the live register and back into employment as quickly as possible. The Department of Education and Science works closely with the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Social and Family Affairs on adopting an integrated approach to activation. A range of measures have been produced to expand services to the unemployed and promote a flexible learning environment tailored to the specific needs of the individual.

While there were difficult decisions to be made in the April budget, the Government also provided for more than 23,000 additional education and training places. Through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, we provided 400 additional community employment places; almost 14,000 ten and 20-week occupation-specific training courses to enable people to get accreditation at levels 4, 5 or 6; 2,000 additional places on the work experience scheme; and more than 270 places on a pilot scheme which enables people on reduced working hours to learn new skills. In the further education sector, 1,500 additional post-leaving certificate places were allocated to vocational education committees and providers for this academic year, bringing the total available nationwide to 31,688. PLC courses enable school leavers and adults returning to education to enhance their employability with a range of vocational skills.

Many people who are now unemployed may have excellent workforce skills but because they have been a long time out of the formal education system, they may not have the standard entry qualifications for higher education. Therefore a range of initiatives, aimed at supporting people to access upskilling in the higher education sector, have been introduced this year. More than 6,000 additional third level places have been provided specifically for unemployed people during the course of this year, primarily in the institutes of technology. Demonstrating considerable flexibility and innovation in using the capacity within the system, the institutes are providing courses that are not tied to the traditional academic year and courses of shorter duration. They are also significantly increasing opportunities for part-time study which enables unemployed people to upskill while continuing to seek employment.

It is open to unemployed people to apply for places on full-time higher education programmes. More than 12,000 applications were received from mature students for full-time higher education programmes this year, an increase of 30% on 2008. The Department of Education and Science is working with the Higher Education Authority to support the expansion of opportunities for flexible learning in higher education institutions.

Dedicated funds allocated on a competitive basis through the strategic innovation fund are assisting institutions to look at new approaches to teaching and learning, including interactive e-learning and distance learning. Examples of projects being funded include the supported flexible learning project at the institutes of technology, the successful implementation of which will result in the use of supported flexible learning across the institutes. In September the Minister for Education and Science launched a new flexible learning portal, bluebrick.ie, which allows a prospective learner to search, compare and apply for flexible learning courses in the institutes of technology. Another project is the roadmap for employer-academic partnership project at Cork Institute of Technology, which will identify learning needs within workplaces, draw up a comprehensive plan for partnership between employers and higher education institutes, and offer a single simple, relevant and inclusive framework to facilitate interaction with the workplace.

In further education overall, after a period of expansion, the challenge is now to consolidate investment to maintain long-term sustainability. Between 1997 and 2008 expenditure on this area increased by over 400% to €414 million, enabling more than 170,000 learners to access further education learning opportunities in 2008, an increase of 125,000 on 1997. Further education plays a key role by providing access, transfer and progression opportunities for the lower skilled, the disadvantaged and the hard-to-reach, including the unemployed. Through adult literacy and community education provision, those most distant from society and those with literacy and numeracy difficulties can receive tuition to enable them to take the first step on the journey of lifelong learning. Through the vocational training opportunities scheme, unemployed adults can access a range of FETAC-accredited learning opportunities which build core skills and competencies.

I have already mentioned the value of the PLC programme for those who wish to enhance their employability. For those who wish to combine a return to learning with work, family or other commitments, the back to education initiative provides an array of part-time options which are free for any adult with less than upper-second-level qualifications. There is also the Youthreach programme for early school leavers and the senior Traveller training programme for adult Travellers. The Government has also overseen the development of the adult education guidance initiative across the country through a network of 40 initiatives providing guidance to more than 35,000 learners in 2008. The provision of a guidance service such as this is known to improve retention and progression rates, making it an integral part of providing an efficient and effective further education service.

The Government has taken a number of other significant steps in education and training to address the economic downturn. For example, the FÁS employment services, together with the local employment services, have doubled their capacity to cater for the rise in referrals from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. This has increased the annual referral capacity to 147,000 in 2009. FÁS has also managed to double its provision of training and work experience places for the unemployed to more than 130,000, which is a substantial increase on the 66,000 available at the end of last year. The training offered by FÁS ranges from a level 3 certificate on the national framework of qualifications to level 7 qualifications.

This year FÁS will deliver approximately 92,000 short-course training places to the unemployed. This is four times the number of similar courses provided last year and reflects the Government's efforts to increase relevant supports for the unemployed. Short training courses are designed to respond to individual training needs in the development of new skills and competencies. Courses are delivered in a variety of ways in order to be as flexible as possible, which has enabled more people to access them.

Keeping people close to the labour market while they are unemployed is essential to ensure they keep their skills updated and are in a position to avail of an employment opportunity when it arises. To respond to this need, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coughlan, and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Hanafin, jointly launched the work placement programme, which will provide 2,000 unemployed people with a six-month work experience placement, earlier this year. The programme comprises two streams, each consisting of 1,000 places. The first stream is for unemployed graduates who attained before this year a full award at level 7 or above on the national framework of qualifications and who have been receiving jobseeker's allowance for the last six months, while the second stream is open to all other unemployed people who have been receiving jobseeker's allowance for the last six months. Under this stream 250 places are being ring-fenced for those under 25 years of age.

To address the significant contraction in activity in the construction sector and its impact on apprenticeships, FÁS has restructured the apprenticeship system to allow redundant apprentices to progress to the next off-the-job training phase in the education sector. FÁS has also introduced an employer-based redundant apprentice rotation scheme to provide support for employers giving on-the-job training to 500 redundant apprentices when they have released their employed apprentices to scheduled phase 4 and phase 6 off-the-job training phases in the institutes of technology. ESB Networks has agreed a programme with FÁS to provide on-the-job training to eligible redundant electrical apprentices at phases 5 and 7. This programme will provide 400 places over a period of 18 months. Finally, the institutes of technology are also providing an 11-week certified training programme for 700 redundant apprentices who have completed their phase 4 training but to whom another training opportunity is not currently available.

Alongside these initiatives, the Department of Social and Family Affairs works with social welfare recipients through a network of facilitators to identify appropriate training or development programmes which will enhance their skills and ultimately improve their employment chances, as well as help them to continue to develop personally. The Department works in close co-operation with other agencies and service providers, including FÁS, VECs, other education and training providers and the local, community and voluntary sector. In addition, it provides advice and support to customers who wish to access its back to education and back to work schemes. Since September 2008, 21 additional facilitators have been appointed, and it is envisaged that up to 70 facilitators will be working in the coming months. Changes have been made to the manner in which the back to work enterprise allowance and the back to education allowance schemes operate, with the aim of providing support to an additional 1,400 claims for support under these schemes.

All Departments involved in the provision of education and training are working closely with stakeholders and providers to address the retraining and skills needs of the workforce as well as reduce duplication and overlap and achieve efficiencies to enable more effective provision. As part of our efforts in this regard the Department of Education and Science and representatives of the Irish Vocational Education Association (IVEA) and Institutes of Technology Ireland participate in the upskilling co-ordination group which is chaired by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Both Departments are also working closely on the implementation of the national skills strategy and, in conjunction with FÁS and the IVEA, on the recently concluded national co-operation agreement which will help to improve collaboration and co-operation between providers to achieve improved efficiency and effectiveness.

In order to address the challenges of this difficult financial situation, we must continue to target and prioritise our resources to maximum effect across the education sector. We must achieve long-term sustainability in these programmes to consolidate the significant investment made by the Government. The increase in unemployment brings with it many challenges, including those of retraining and increasing skills. I am confident that by working closely with other Departments and agencies we can maximise the impact of our collective endeavours in meeting these challenges.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State. I am deputising for our esteemed colleague and education spokesperson, Senator Healy Eames, who conveys her apologies to the House for her absence. This is a debate for which she has been calling for some time and in which she has a major interest, but unfortunately one of her children is ill and she was obliged to leave at short notice.

The importance of this debate is brought into sharp focus when we consider that almost 423,000 people are currently on the live register. A large proportion of these are young and dislocated workers. Since 2007, employment has shrunk by 27% in the construction sector and 6% in the agriculture, forestry and fisheries sector. There is a danger that short-term joblessness may lead to long-term unemployment if the correct strategies are not put in place. Those with lower levels of education are more likely to lose their jobs or remain in unemployment. Strategies such as wage restraints, tax initiatives and employment incentives are also critical to putting people back to work but the role of education and further training is on our agenda for today.

Although one would think Ireland has the highest expenditure on education in Europe, that is not the case. A recent OECD survey revealed that 4.7% of GDP is spent on education in this country, compared to an OECD average of 5.7%. We are not at the top in terms of investing in education, even though it is the central mechanism through which we can achieve social justice and put people back to work. A recent ESRI report made the obvious point that the leaving certificate has become the new minimum standard for accessing training and further education. The report also established that people who left school early were the hardest hit by the recession.

Education has to be part of any strategy for dealing with the recession. We need a combination of internships and continuing education for the unemployed. Internships can offer critical learning, networking and confidence building opportunities.

The large number of people who have left school without leaving certificates need to return to formal education and apprenticeship programmes. Many of them were attracted by the high wages offered in the construction and food processing sectors during the Celtic tiger years and are now facing unemployment. Enterprise development programmes can help to develop the skills needed in the export sector. The existing apprenticeship programmes ought to be expanded and those who are caught in midstream because their employers have closed or downsized should be given the opportunity to complete their apprenticeships. The National Adult Literacy Agency has found that expenditure on adult literacy increases employment prospects by a dramatic 12%.

We should expand the schemes which offer students a chance to work or study abroad, particularly in countries with which we have trade relations. Students at all levels of education should have the opportunity to gain overseas experience. Irish people are not able to access certain high end jobs at present because two languages are required. The failure to teach two foreign languages has become a significant barrier to high end jobs in Internet sales and other areas. We must encourage people to study two continental languages in addition to English and other mainstream subjects at second and third levels.

The OECD recently conducted a survey of training and reskilling initiatives. Some countries offer useful models while others have similar strategies to our own. Greece has provided additional places, Italy offers training vouchers to the unemployed, Japan uses income support loans to encourage people to take up training and education opportunities and France has built training incentives into its social welfare code. While the merits of further training are obvious to those of us who are involved in education and politics, it may be necessary to develop a carrot and stick approach for our own social welfare code. Further consideration is needed of the degree to which people should be rewarded for participating in further training and education and, when suitable candidates fail to take up available positions, the appropriateness of penalties. People cannot be forced below a certain standard of living but incentives could be accompanied by penalties such as reductions in income.

The suggestion that the junior certificate should be abolished is appalling and counterproductive in terms of enabling those from a less privileged background to get onto the educational ladder. The junior certificate is a key milestone and important preparation for the leaving certificate and should be maintained. Despite the Minister of State's comments on the number of additional places available on post-leaving certificate courses, these courses remain oversubscribed and waiting lists for places remain long. The overall priority must be to intervene to assist people with low levels of literacy to achieve certification to enable them to climb the educational ladder and ensure those who have acquired educational qualifications are able to further upskill. We must also encourage those who left the education system because they were attracted by the fast buck, as it were, to return to education or training. Education will be critical in economic recovery and reducing unemployment.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire go dtí an Seanad chun an díospóireacht seo a bheith againn maidir le cúrsaí oideachais agus an tionchar atá acu ar shaol eacnamaíochta na tíre faoi láthair. It is timely that the House is debating lifelong learning and the educational dividend that can be secured from educational opportunities, particularly in the current economic climate, as Senator O'Reilly outlined. I acknowledge the work being done in this respect by the Minister of State with responsibility for lifelong learning, Deputy Seán Haughey. The Minister of State referred to the publication in December of the report, Building Ireland's Smart Economy, which is a framework for sustainable economic renewal. Education and training are core elements of the report and will play a major part in reshaping the economy into a modern, smart economy.

I propose to outline some of the work being done by the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, and the Minister of State, Deputy Haughey. The Minister has announced 7,000 places for upskilling and retraining in the further and higher education sector to help workers who have lost their jobs. Senator O'Reilly has noted that 27% of the 423,000 people on the live register are in the construction sector. Many of them are in my constituency and I concur with the Senator that we must carefully examine the educational needs of this group, many of whom have acquired specific skills in the construction sector over a period of years. We must focus on how we can reshape these skills and refocus their thinking on gaining meaningful employment in the years ahead. If one does the calculation, one finds that 27% of 423,000 is a large number of people across all of our constituencies. We must focus on their particular needs.

The Department is doing excellent work in providing education and training courses in conjunction with FÁS. The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, has launched a number of initiatives in this area in the past 12 months. It is important we continue with this work.

Some of the 7,000 places made available for upskilling and retraining will be taken up by people who have lost their jobs in the construction sector. The courses in question are aimed at upskilling workers to try to gain meaningful, long-term employment in growth sectors in the economy such as information and communications technology, engineering, business energy, medical devices, bio-pharmaceuticals, international finance and food. As the Minister of State noted, 1,500 of these places will be available in post-leaving certificate courses nationally. Overall, 31,688 places are available, with 3,500 full-time and part-time undergraduate and postgraduate places available, as well as places on third level transition courses and accelerated certificate programmes.

Since September more than 12,000 applications have been received from mature students for full-time higher education programmes for this academic year, an increase of 30% on last year. The individuals in question clearly wish to use this opportunity to reskill, re-train and re-educate themselves. Many of those in my constituency who applied for such courses have stated they wish to use the opportunity presented by the current economic climate. In other words, while there may be some employment opportunities available, this may be a time to reflect, reskill and regain educational advantage. The 30% increase in the number of applications indicates a substantial increase in third level participation by mature students. The Minister of State referred to an important issue which is sometimes overlooked, namely, the co-operation between the Departments of Education and Science, Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Social and Family Affairs. I welcome this co-ordinated approach to meeting the challenge we face by providing educational opportunities for individuals who wish to pursue that path in the current climate.

The Minister of State referred to the range of initiatives under the strategic innovation fund to enhance flexible and lifelong learning and encourage work based learning and the incorporation of generic competences in the undergraduate curriculum. Centres for science, engineering and technology and strategic research clusters have been created in colleges with the support of Science Foundation Ireland. These research groups are formally linked with more than 300 multinational and small to medium high-tech enterprises. The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment has been instrumental in ensuring the strategic innovation fund reaches out to individuals in co-operation with many small and medium businesses and multinational companies inside and outside the State. This will have a major impact on economic renewal in the years ahead.

This week the expert group on future skills needs published its annual report which found that with continued strategic investment, the upskilling and reskilling of the labour force would play a significant role in providing current and future enterprises with the competitive advantage necessary for Ireland to achieve sustainable, export led economic recovery. This conclusion is of particular importance when one considers that the United States, the United Kingdom and other European neighbours are investing in renewal projects to try to stimulate their economies. The stimulus provided in these countries will create significant advantages for Ireland by ensuring we can export to these stimulus led economies in the future. For this reason, it is vital that we use the current economic conditions as an opportunity to improve our competitiveness by upskilling the labour force. Much work is being done in this regard.

The report also referred to the share of school leavers progressing to higher education, which is approaching the 72% figure laid out in the national skills strategy. The share in 2008 was 60%. It is a significant move of 12% in a 12 month period.

The number of highly skilled graduates in third level education has continued to increase, with the numbers this year reaching 56,300 compared to 55,100 in 2006. It is important to recognise that people are moving to third level education. There is interaction between three Departments to ensure this continues. The Department of Social and Family Welfare is also playing a role in that regard, with a number of initiatives, including the back to education and training initiatives, as well as the back to education allowance which this year is playing a significant part in allowing individuals in receipt of social welfare payments to gain educational opportunities.

While we can look at the current economic climate negatively, we have an opportunity to allow all individuals who possess the initiative to move to further education and training to receive economic assistance from the State through the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The Minister of State's Department can provide the educational space or opportunity. It is vitally important to regain our competitiveness as a state and offer educational opportunities for re-skilling to reshape our workforce in order that we can bounce back from our current economic state.

Some 27% of those who are unemployed worked in the construction sector at one stage or another. This is a high percentage and we have to focus on that element of those who are unemployed. I am not sure how we can do so. Many such individuals may be unemployed on a full-time or part-time basis and receive some level of social welfare assistance. It would be an opportune time to interview many such individuals and ascertain what the future holds for them and how the Minister of State's Department may be able to assist in that regard. Many opportunities are available in the construction section such as through the warmer homes scheme and SEI-funded schemes to transform homes to be more energy efficient. There are many opportunities in the areas of solar energy, wind energy and other forms of energy to re-skill individuals to carry out some of the work required.

I welcome the governmental and ministerial co-operation in this regard and acknowledge the Minister of State's work in the area. He is working with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Social and Family Affairs. That work is being recognised by the number and volume of individuals gaining a third level education. I thank him for his efforts and acknowledge the work being done. This debate gives us an opportunity to reflect on what is being done and outline some of our constituents' concerns about what the future holds for them, their families and progression in work and education.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I do not intend to use all of my time.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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That will be a first.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire. Is ábhar an-tábhachtach é seo, go háirithe i gcomhthéacs na géarchéime eacnamaíochta.

The economy has entered the worst recession in 80 years, sparked by the global credit crunch and collapse of the Irish property bubble. The scale of the economic collapse is staggering. In 2006, at the height of the boom, the private sector was a net borrower to the tune of €10 billion. In 2009 it will be a net saver of €20 billion. This represents a withdrawal of €30 billion from the economy annually because of reduced spending on housing and consumer goods and reduced capital investment by businesses.

This massive withdrawal of capital contributed to a major growth in unemployment, with the rate of unemployment doubling from 5.9% in June 2008 to 11.9% in June 2009. It now stands at 12.9%. According to the Central Statistics Office, there are 422,500 people signing on the live register. The people concerned are not mere statistics. Each person is an individual human being, faced with a grim Christmas, the real fear of his or her home being repossessed and concerns about medical and food bills.

The slight drop in the number signing on is to be welcomed, but all that means is that we have, it is to be hoped, hit the bottom of the cycle. The figures do not, however, mean that we have yet turned a corner, nor will we without vigorous and decisive action by the Government. Clear and decisive leadership is needed. The simple fact is that we are not just facing a major economic crisis but also a human tragedy if we do not address the issue of unemployment urgently and, in particular, if we do not put in place a major lifelong education programme to ensure we allow people to develop and use their God-given talents for their own benefit and that of their community and country.

I have previously spoken on the impact of the collapse in the construction sector on unemployment, particularly in rural areas, and the need to retrain young people who left school early, drawn by the lure of high wages in the construction sector, and are now left with no jobs or saleable skills.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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That is right.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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However, there is a new breed of unemployed professionals, namely, those who worked in financial services or for developers who need to re-skill for new areas of employment and sectors of industry. It is clear that we need to develop a much more flexible education system which does not just train young people but which provides an education when and where people need it. In short, we need to rethink and move from a school or college-based model to a person-centred model of education. In that regard, as a person who lectures at the Institute of Technology, Blanchardstown, I was glad to see repeated references to the institute of technology sector in the Minister of State's speech. It was the institutes of technology which, in many ways, through their applied approach to third level education gave us the graduates with the skills we needed to meet the developing opportunities in the economy. It is within that sector that we will find the necessary flexibility, focus and attentiveness to the needs of emerging industry or employment possibilities.

The local approach is important. The Institute of Technology, Blanchardstown is a particularly fine example of a college which is close to its community and aware of the needs of the community it serves, particularly, but not confined to, the Dublin 15 area. It is responsive to the community's needs and builds good relationships with local schools and so on. In that regard, I am glad to note the Minister of State referred to the 6,000 additional third level places, primarily in the institute of technology sector, provided specifically for unemployed persons during the course of the year. I also note what he said about the strategic innovation fund, particularly the good work done in the areas of interactive learning, e-learning and distance learning. Many of my colleagues in the Institute of Technology, Blanchardstown use moodle - I have been slow to start using it but have a firm purpose of amendment in that regard.

The Minister of State has mentioned examples of the projects being funded, including the supported flexible learning project in institutes of technology. He is correct to say that if it is implemented successfully, it will result in mainstreaming flexible learning methods within and across the institutes of technology. He also mentioned various other initiatives. However, I did not see a reference to the Student Support Bill. Perhaps I am not completely up to speed on this but I would welcome being brought up to speed. What has happened to that? 1 o'clock

Increasingly, we are not talking about third level students in the old-fashioned sense of people who do the leaving certificate and go to college. We are talking about people in some cases coming from different cultures and where language assistance and support is a key issue within colleges. We are talking about people coming from unemployment who will have specific needs arising from the experiences they have. Some of them will bring great strengths and I have already witnessed that with some of my students this term.

Having worked in employment, some of these people bring great knowledge and maturity to the approaches to course materials. This brings on other younger members of the class because they have role models with more mature students whom they see valuing their education in a more focused way. That can lead to an excellent dynamic within the classroom setting. It is important to recognise that although we are in an economic downturn, there are many factors competing for students' attention, including part-time jobs, socialising and so on. That has not changed and there is a need to promote excellence not just in the delivery of third level, higher and further education and training but also in encouraging appreciation of how important this is. I pay particular tribute to mature students for the leavening effect that they can sometimes have within a classroom scenario. I mean no disrespect to younger students in saying that.

With regard to student support legislation, I have expressed a concern about the way courses are funded or grants are made available to students both in regard to fees and maintenance and support. We are moving towards a more differentiated type of course delivery, with some people coming from other cultures and others coming from employment. There are also people trying to upskill within the jobs that they currently have and who are doing courses as part of their weekly work, although not on a full-time basis. Some people may want to do a module here and there and perhaps progress in a more gradual way towards a qualification.

Will we have a system of student support with regard to fees and general maintenance grants that will support that emerging reality or will we remain stuck in a more old-fashioned model of course support, which will not be relevant to the needs of new kinds of students? I do not ask that question in an accusatory way and I genuinely seek more information on it. Student support legislation was coming down the tracks and I believe it remains there, unless I was out sick for six weeks and it was passed at that stage. What will happen with the legislation?

Is it the Government's intention to provide for a more differentiated kind of course funding to facilitate those students who are coming at third level or further education and training from different backgrounds, including part-time work and partial completion of course goals and requirements? This may not happen according to the traditional two, three or four-year models we have experienced. Even if we did not have a jobs crisis we would still need to make the transition from the school or college-based model to a kind of person-centred model of further education and training delivery which would focus on the specific needs of people coming from different backgrounds.

In the past in Ireland, the Aosdána, the people of art, were a tiny part of the population but in future these people will form the majority. The advent of the knowledge society demands that education and lifelong learning be almost as accessible as fast food, although I hope it would be more healthy. I also hope we would aim for a wisdom society rather than just a knowledge society in what would be an holistic approach to education taking in the dignity of the person and the needs of the individual.

The truth is that Ireland is far behind its competitors. The report, Education at a Glance 2008, found that the ratio of hours spent in job related training and workplace initiatives in Ireland was just 12% compared with the OECD average of 25%, suggesting that participation in education and learning was far lower in Ireland than in other developed countries. The heart of the knowledge economy is not made up of institutions or technology but the skills and experience of our people, and these skills must be constantly refreshed to cope with a rapidly changing business and technical environment.

Lifelong learning is not just about fulfilling the economic needs of the nation. It also has a role to play in tackling social exclusion. Many young people, especially in our inner cities, do not have the interest or the motivation - this is relevant to what I stated earlier about third level education - to succeed in schools when they are young. However, as they mature such people regret not making better use of their time in school. They have often gained maturity to really benefit from education.

The success of mature students in universities is clear proof of the value of second-chance education. Everybody deserves that second chance and investing in education for the disadvantaged is a very good investment. It costs more to keep a person in prison for one year than it does to educate a young person to degree level. Even Colm McCarthy would approve of that business case.

Lifelong learning is not just an economic imperative and we can see it as a basic human right to which all of us should respond. The Government should respond to it in a targeted and intelligent way. One schooler made a memorable quote in saying: "The purpose of learning is growth and our minds, unlike our bodies, can continue growing as we continue to live." I urge the Government to be serious and ensure we put in place a real infrastructure for lifelong learning. We must create not just a smart economy but a smart society. In so doing we will create a wisdom society.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to share time with Senator Ann Ormonde.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I will be as quick as I can.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Will the Senator use all his time?

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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As the Minister of State is well aware, a number of other people and I have put forward what we envisage as a proposed entrepreneurship education strategy for Ireland. Those people include business people, entrepreneurs and educators such as DIT entrepreneurship lecturer, Dr. Thomas Cooney. A 12-point plan was included in this strategy. I know the Minister is familiar with that and I want to take this opportunity to put some of the propositions on the record of the House. I hope the Minister of State will continue as he has begun in trying to implement the strategy.

The group proposed the introduction of field research projects as an element of business studies subjects and an entrepreneurship module in all aspects of third level education. Multiple intelligence and emotional intelligence theories should be introduced to social, personal and health education and a young entrepreneur of the year competition should be launched. I know good progress has already been made on establishing a schools awards programme and there should also be development of an entrepreneurship education on-line resource for teachers. Above all there should be an appointment of a champion, both internally to the Department and externally - somebody with the respect of business - to promote the implementation of the entrepreneurship education strategy.

Since we began we have been joined by business people and educators from the different levels of the education system to develop collectively a set of proposals which can be introduced by the Department of Education and Science. A total of 12 proposals have been developed, of which only one requires additional funding to existing resources. In these challenging economic times, there is little financial reason we cannot do this.

The need to develop a coherent entrepreneurship education strategy is not new to Ireland. As far back as 2002 the Goodbody report stated that the school system does not support the idea of working for oneself and the Irish education system was seen by entrepreneurs as having played a very limited role in supporting entrepreneurship to date. Since then there have been a number of successive reports, such as those by the Enterprise Strategy Group and Small Business Forum, which have successfully argued that the development of entrepreneurship education across all levels of the Irish education system could be a sustainable source of locally grown entrepreneurs.

Ireland does not, as it stands, have an entrepreneurship education policy despite the many calls in evidence-based reports published by the European Commission highlighting the substantial benefit to the nation's economy and its young people. The Commission has published a series of thoughtful reports and recommendations that it encourages member states to act upon and most of which the Irish Government has yet to introduce.

One of the members of the European Commission entrepreneurship education expert group was leading Irish academic and co-author of our own recommendations and strategy, Dr. Thomas Cooney. According to Dr. Cooney, a number of countries similar in size and peripheral geographical location, such as Scotland, Norway and Finland, have already recognised the benefits of an entrepreneurship education strategy and implemented policies to ensure all students receive some form of entrepreneurship education during their formal schooling years. There is a growing body of international evidence which demonstrates that students who receive entrepreneurship education as part of their schooling show improved academic performance, school attendance, educational attainment and have increased problem-solving and decision-making abilities, interpersonal relationships, teamwork abilities, money management and public speaking skills. They were much more likely to find employment and have enhanced social and psychological development, self-esteem, ego development and self-efficacy.

The reason students achieve these benefits is because the primary goal of entrepreneurship education is not to get everybody to start their own business but to encourage young people to think positively and look for opportunities to make things happen, to have the self-confidence to achieve their goals and use their talents to build a better society, economically and socially. It also recognises that students of all academic abilities can be part of this process and that success is not dependent on the number of points one gets in the leaving certificate but on how one lives life.

We could benefit greatly if we did that for the future. Putting the appropriate template in place now would lay groundwork similar to that laid by the Minister of State's father, Charles Haughey, and Donogh O'Malley in providing free secondary education in the 1960s. That led to the economic success we achieved in the 1990s. Similarly, doing this now and having appropriate entrepreneurship education strategy introduced throughout the education system would ensure our sustainable success for the future. I know the Minister of State, Deputy Haughey, will continue to take that forward.

Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State as we face up to the challenges of the economic recession. We face a very difficult budget, as the Minister of State noted, and we must acknowledge the steps that have been taken to face up to the challenges. The only way we can do that is through education and training. We must acknowledge the enormous unemployment figures. How do we protect jobs and create new ones? How do we handle people who are unemployed? These are the challenges the Minister of State faces and I wish him well in that regard. They concern how we can overcome the problem, take people off the live register, provide courses relevant to their needs and reflect that end of society today.

The Minister of State spoke much about the smart economy, namely, how we can best secure enterprise and promote competitiveness. Again,this must come about through education and training. There is no other way at present. We must look at the needs and see who are unskilled and need to be reskilled or upskilled or whether they need to be skilled at all. Should we look again and see what society wants today? Perhaps it has changed. The concept of jobs may change in the future. I have asked many times for a debate in this House on the concept of work for the future. What is the future for Ireland? What is our vision for the future? Perhaps the old-fashioned idea of traditional courses to which the Minister of State referred may no longer be the type to pursue in respect of making links with the unemployed.

We talked about many initiatives. The Minister of State mentioned the post-leaving certificate courses which are excellent for tackling job losses and enhancing skills. The Minister of State also spoke of back to work initiatives, lifelong learning programmes and FÁS courses. There is a plethora. It concerns me there may be a great deal of overlap in many of these courses. I welcome the concept of taking courses out of colleges and putting them into the workforce or communities. Many people are long-term unemployed and may be unemployable. They do not know how to go back into the system even though the Minister of State has introduced an excellent new adult service initiative. We need to figure out how to create a link to those who are unemployed and how we can bring them into a workforce rather than into a school-type situation. We might not want that new arrangement of class and teacher.

The challenges are great and I wish the Minister of State well. The only way back is through education, training and lifelong learning. However, let it be holistic. Many people need to think about themselves as people and perhaps this is a golden opportunity for them. They want to be upskilled and they want a new "me" as they come into the world of work. If I can be of any help to the Minister of State in the area I know best, namely, education training, I would be delighted to work with him.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House to discuss this very important matter. We must have a skills drive for people who have lost their jobs and those who may be in vulnerable sectors of the economy. The current financial difficulties, massive unemployment and impending social crisis demand immediate attention and action. Action on reskilling and upskilling of workers must be taken to expand education and training opportunities, especially for further, adult and third level education and training opportunities. Investment in education and training must be a Government priority if Ireland is to recover from the current economic crisis, regain competitiveness in the labour market, avert high social welfare dependency and prevent deepening poverty.

The Central Statistics Office figures released yesterday indicate there were 412,400 people on the live register at the end of October. Nearly 85,000 are under 25 years of age. Youth unemployment is a social time-bomb. If young people are condemned to a pattern of long-term unemployment in their teens and early 20s, it is particularly difficult for them to emerge from that. The Government must increase very significantly the number of education and training options for young unemployed people. The Minister of State spoke about the work placement programme. How many, if any, of such places are ring-fenced for the under-25 age group? The work placement programme announced last May by the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Mary Hanafin, was originally heralded as an opportunity to offer unemployed graduates receiving jobseeker's allowance valuable work experience for a fixed term of six months. This scheme was introduced on 1 August. Why is the requirement to have been in receipt of jobseeker's allowance for a six-month period so critical? Is there not a case to be made for shortening that period, perhaps to three months? I am interested to know the reason for having that condition, such as it is.

Regarding the 2,000 work placements offered to potential candidates nationwide, to which the Minister of State referred, two streams exist, as he indicated. One thousand placements are to go to graduates and 1,000 to people other than graduates. Obviously, these are difficult fiscal times. Considering the scale of the problem, are those numbers sufficient to do more than scratch at the surface of the problem? To what extent are the streamed offers being taken up? Is flexibility allowed for moving between the streams? Are there any issues in this regard? I would be interested to hear the Minister of State's comments.

This highlights the dismal performance of this Government to date in providing real options for young unemployed people. I listened to the Minister of State's list but the key point is whether it is enough. We are in difficult times but must look for creative ways and measures to deal with this problem. Paying potential workers unemployment benefit is dead money and a considerable waste of resources. I am sure the Minister of State realises this. That money could be an investment in the education and upskilling of the potential workforce. Clearly, an innovative and coherent plan is needed urgently to tackle the rising rate of unemployment, especially among school leavers and college graduates about whom we have talked already.

The Minister of State mentioned there were 31,000 places at post-leaving certificate, PLC, level. However, a cap was put on that figure. The cost of providing extra places is probably marginal and it is questionable whether limiting places in this way can be justified. In addition, a cap was placed on vocational training. Why do these caps make sense when the fixed costs are already in place in the form of teachers, buildings in some cases and so on?

Since international evidence indicates that investment in formal training has significant returns for the individual, that investment is more important now than ever if we are to provide any kind of response to the skills deficit in the workforce.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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As it is now 1.20 p.m., I must call on the Minister of State to reply.

Seán Haughey (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have had a constructive debate. I am always impressed by how constructive and co-operative Seanad debates are. They are less combative than they are in the Lower House and I thank Senators for their contributions.

A number of questions were raised and I will endeavour to answer as many of them as possible. Many Senators referred to the need for co-operation between various Departments and agencies in this area. For the first time, we are achieving that co-operation. My appointment as Minister of State with responsibility for lifelong learning at the Departments of Education and Science and Enterprise, Trade and Employment represents progress in this regard, as it is an attempt to bring about co-ordination in the delivery of our education and training programmes.

The upskilling co-ordination group is an important body and comprises representatives of all of the major education and training players. It is bringing about the co-ordination discussed by Senators. The inter-departmental committee on the implementation of the national skills strategy comprises representatives of the Departments of Education and Science, Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Finance. I assure Senators that Departments and State agencies are co-ordinating on these matters.

A number of Senators referred to the position of construction workers, a problem that I recognise. FÁS training courses are available to everyone who is unemployed. Many redundant construction workers are being reskilled in new occupational areas where employment opportunities exist. FÁS is providing a variety of training courses in the sustainable technologies sector to give construction workers new skills. These include courses in the installation of solar panels and wood pellet burners and training in assessing building energy rating certificates and are available in the majority of FÁS training centres. Senators Ó Domhnaill and O'Reilly raised this matter. Specific measures have been put in place to enable 3,800 redundant apprentices to progress their apprenticeships this year.

Senator Mullen raised a number of issues, particularly the Student Support Bill 2008. It is hoped that Committee Stage will commence following the resolution of some legal issues with the Attorney General's office.

Many Senators outlined their opinions on the importance of lifelong learning. While we are debating it in the context of its importance to our economy, Senator Mullen and others pointed out that it is also good for the individual in terms of his or her social and personal development, family and community and for society as a whole. Lifelong learning is important for our economic development, but its other aspects, such as further education for which I have responsibility, are important for our society. Attending various events around the country to give out certificates to people who have taken the huge leap of returning to education and seeing their satisfaction and that of their families is wonderful and makes everything the Department of Education and Science is doing in terms of further education worthwhile.

I acknowledge the contribution of Senator MacSharry and confirm that the policy document on an entrepreneurship education strategy for Ireland produced by him and others is being examined by the Department. The Seán Lemass award for excellence in enterprise is derived from it. The student enterprise awards are administered by the city and county enterprise boards and there is something called the mini-company programme for transition year students. It is proposed that the top three projects from each of the two programmes would go forward to receive the Seán Lemass award. It is envisaged that a special event will be arranged in mid-May of next year. Hopefully, the Taoiseach will be present. The awarding of certificates to the participants and the schools involved will be made at that time. This is a direct result of the policy document submitted by Senator MacSharry and others regarding the need to promote entrepreneurship throughout our education system.

Senator Ryan asked a number of questions, but I am not sure whether I will be able to deal with them all this afternoon. He referred to the work placement programme, which will provide 2,000 people who have been unemployed with six-month work experience placements. The first stream is for unemployed graduates and the second stream is open to all other unemployed individuals who have been receiving jobseeker's allowance for the past six months. Under this stream, 250 places are being ring-fenced for those under 25 years of age. The statistics demonstrate that there is a problem in respect of that age group. All of the efforts of the Departments of Education and Science and Enterprise, Trade and Employment will examine this issue to determine what can be done.

Senator O'Reilly mentioned the junior certificate. To clarify, there are no definite proposals on the abolition of that examination at this time. A headline on its abolition in last weekend's Sunday Tribune suggested it would save €30 million. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, has concerns regarding the junior certificate and how it operates. In particular, he is concerned about the emphasis on rote learning, which he views as a problem. He has asked the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment to consider the junior certificate to determine whether and what improvements could be made. However, this process is at an early stage and there are no definite proposals.

Regarding some of the other questions raised, I agree with all of Senator Mullen's comments on the crucial role of the institutes of technology and the specialist knowledge they bring. Indeed, they have not been found wanting in the current crisis. They have been responsive, have recognised where there was excess capacity and have introduced new proposals to deal with that issue. Every economic player has been responsive to the current crisis.

The Irish Vocational Education Association has been extremely constructive and organised various seminars and conferences on how the VEC sector can respond to the difficulties we face and the need for upskilling and retraining. Upskilling is vital to the economy during the economic downturn. We need to gain a competitive advantage over our trading partners. The national skills strategy is in place. We face a huge challenge in upskilling 500,000 people by at least one level in the national framework of qualifications by 2020.

In the short term the emphasis will be on the unemployed. The workforce also includes those who have lost their jobs. All our efforts are concentrated on them. Employment activation is constantly under review. A large number of measures were brought forward in the April budget. This area continues to be looked at with a view to bringing forward appropriate measures in due course having regard to the resources available. The need for employment activation is constantly under review, while new proposals are continually being examined.

Senators:

Second Stage.

John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Seanad for agreeing to consider this legislation today. Most Members will appreciate that since the Courts Service was established in 1999, it has energetically and systematically pursued a programme of transforming the physical infrastructure of the courts. Not so long ago, many of our courthouses provided their users with a pretty dismal experience. In a relatively short space of time, with significant support from Government, the Courts Service has undone much of the legacy of decades of neglect of the courts infrastructure throughout the country. A total of 41 courthouses have been refurbished and ten newly-built courthouses have been completed.

There is no question but that the development and construction of the Criminal Courts of Justice is of a far greater magnitude and marks the advent of a new era for the courts in Dublin. It is the largest court building project since Gandon's Four Courts building was completed in the late 18th century and is one of the most significant developments in the history of the courts in Ireland. Ever since the fledgling Dáil courts were established in the most difficult and divisive circumstances, the courts have served this country well. It is hoped the new Criminal Courts of Justice will in time, create its own history and will continue the strong tradition since 1922 of a just and independent Irish judicial system.

Construction of the complex commenced in May 2007 with a construction programme of 34 months and a target date for completion of March 2010. However, the building will be completed three months ahead of schedule and is on target to be handed over later this month. The complex will provide vastly improved conditions for the public, jurors, victims and their families which Members will agree is only right. People who come into contact with the criminal justice system, whether as a juror, a victim or a witness in a case, are nervous and intimidated without suffering the poor facilities and extremely close contact with the accused which had unfortunately become the norm in the Four Courts which was not designed for the volume or demands of the modern criminal justice system. Secure segregated accommodation and access routes are provided for the public, jurors, persons in custody and staff. The reception area for jurors can accommodate up to 400 people and jury dining facilities and retiring rooms are provided within a segregated area. Rooms for victims, witnesses and vulnerable witnesses are provided within a secure area. Representatives of victims and jurors are delighted with the facilities planned for them. A visit to the complex has been arranged for the members of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights.

The new building will concentrate all central Dublin criminal business in one serviced location. This means transferring courts and administrative offices from the three jurisdictions - District Court, Circuit Court and High Court - as well as the Special Criminal Court, to one new centralised facility. This facility will have a significant impact on the criminal justice system and allow for more efficient logistical management of criminal trials. It will also allow the Four Courts to be freed up for civil business, which has been a major demand in recent years. The Courts Service has met this challenge by making full use of refurbished courthouses around the country for non-jury High Court lists but with the opening of the new complex, the Four Courts will once again be the main High Court venue in the country.

The Courts Service has, since its establishment, set about changing the physical infrastructure of our courts. However, change is not only about buildings; it is also about how the courts do business. In this regard, the courts have transformed the way they do their business by embracing new technologies and work practices. One example of this is the introduction of digital audio recording which has been installed in 41 courts nationwide over the last year and also in the new complex. This encompasses all Central Criminal Court, High Court, Family Law Court and Circuit Criminal Courts. The technology replaces stenography and transcripts can be produced overnight where necessary, speeding up the court process considerably. It also provides significant assistance in dealing with appeals.

The Courts Service has also created a unified staff structure which brought together three distinct staffing streams from the Circuit and District Courts, the High and Supreme Courts and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Prior to the establishment of the service, the three streams had separate career structures, promotional opportunities and methods of promotion. The unification provided for a transparent merit-based promotion system, allowing for greater flexibility and expertise for the Courts Service in the management of resources and supporting the courts.

The Bill before the House has enabling provisions to underpin streamlined management procedures in the new complex, which are especially necessary given its scale, but which can in future apply to other court venues as appropriate.

Part 2 of the Bill has a number of provisions to allow the Irish Prison Service to manage the central holding facility for people in custody and to have control over all persons held, including those who have not been committed to prison by the courts. The main objective is to avoid duplication of effort by the Irish Prison Service and the Garda Síochána and free up gardaí for operational duties.

The Bill allows for the temporary transfer of custody of a person to a holding area officer solely for the purposes of facilitating a court appearance by that person or the holding of a court hearing involving him or her. It is necessary to make legislative provision for this change so that the Irish Prison Service may be responsible for the custody of persons in holding cells in the courts who have up until now remained in Garda custody. A reciprocal arrangement whereby a prisoner may be temporarily placed in the custody of a member of the Garda Síochána is also provided for. This provision allows a garda to have temporary custody of a prisoner in the limited circumstances of facilitating a court appearance. I will be introducing a short amendment on Committee Stage to change an element of the provisions covering Garda custody of prisoners who may be held temporarily in Garda stations pending a court appearance. Take V

Our intent is to provide for a situation where a garda may take temporary custody of a prisoner within or in the vicinity of a courthouse rather than impact on the existing situation in terms of those held in a Garda station. I look forward to detailing the changes we propose to make on Committee Stage and I trust Members will agree with the logic behind the amendments. Part 3 makes provision to improve staff management and flexibility further by designing a single administrative office rather than an office for each court jurisdiction. This builds on other changes introduced by the Courts Service in recent years. It will fully integrate the courts' staffing structures and allow for efficient procedures for the deployment of staff. Part 4 will allow a District Court clerk to take bail recognisance in certain instances without the need for the applicant to return to court and expand the range of persons who can take a recognisance in the case of an appeal from the District Court. Given the size of the building, considerable efficiency will be gained from this small change.

I will outline the provisions of the Bill to the House. Sections 1 to 4 form Part 1 of the Act and are standard drafting provisions. In Part 2, section 5 contains a number of definitions. At present, a person may be in custody for a number of reasons. He or she may be charged with a criminal offence by the Garda or may be held by the Irish Prison Service on foot of a court order, either on remand or on conviction. Up to now both agencies have shared access to cell areas. However, in the new complex the Prison Service will manage the custody area, thus freeing up the Garda for other duties. The main feature of this part is to provide a legislative basis for a person in custody to be placed in temporary custody of either the Garda Síochána or the Irish Prison Service. In the main, this will facilitate the management by the Prison Service of the new custody area. The reverse provision, in which prisoners of the Prison Service may be held in the temporary custody of the Garda, will be less frequently required but is included to ensure every possibility is covered and, as I indicated earlier, we will introduce an amendment to this provision to reflect the existing role and function of a member-in-charge in a Garda station.

Section 6 explains that a prisoner or person may be placed in the temporary custody of the Garda Síochána or a prison governor in a place in or adjacent to a court building for a purpose referred to in section 7. Section 7 provides that a person can be held either to facilitate a court appearance by that person or for the holding of a court hearing involving him or her. An example of such a situation this second provision is intended to cover would be if persons who are already in custody were required as witnesses in another case. Section 8 indicates at what point temporary custody under section 6 commences and ceases. Section 8(1) provides that the temporary custody commences when the prisoner is placed in the custody of the holding area officer and ceases either when the prisoner is returned to the person in whose custody they were prior to the temporary custody, or is released by order of the court. Under section 8(2) a person lawfully in the custody of the Garda Síochána may be placed in temporary custody of a governor for the purposes of a court appearance. This temporary custody commences from the moment the person is placed in the custody of the holding area officer and ceases either when the person is returned to the previous person of custody or released by order of the court.

Section 9 provides that a person placed in temporary custody shall be regarded as remaining in the custody of the person in whose custody he or she was before being so placed. The next section requires the prison authorities or the Garda Síochána to hand over to a holding area officer any medication, prescriptions for medication, health information etc. when placing a person in temporary custody. The reverse applies when the holding area officer is returning the person to custody. Section 11 sets out the duties, functions and powers of a holding area officer in respect of a person who has been placed in his or her temporary custody. Section 11(1) imposes certain obligations on the holding area officer. He or she must prevent a person in temporary custody from escape, prevent the commission of an offence, ensure orderly and disciplined behaviour, bring him or her to a court or court office, ensure his or her appearance before court and comply with any court order relating to his or her custody, treatment or transfer. Section 11(2) confers on a holding area officer a power of search in accordance with the prison rules in respect of the person in temporary custody if of opinion that it is necessary to the performance of the officer's functions to do so. This is to ensure that standards of safety are consistent regardless of the origin of the person in custody. Section 11(3) outlines that the holding area officer may use all reasonable force, where necessary, in the performance of their functions. Section 11(4) applies the same obligations and duties on a member of the Garda Síochána for the purposes of temporary custody. Section 11(5) is included to avoid any misapprehension. It retains all existing powers of search under the prison rules exercisable by a holding area officer who is a prison officer. Section 12 empowers the Minister to make a number of regulations, for example, governing standards, record keeping etc.

In Part 3, section 13 is a standard drafting provision containing definitions. Section 14 sets out the steps for the establishment of combined court offices. Sections 14(1) and 14(2) enable the Courts Service, having undertaken the necessary consultations, to establish a combined court office. As part of this process they will designate two or more court offices to comprise the combined office and set out the business to be transacted in the office. Section 14(3) requires the Courts Service to publish notice of establishment in Iris Oifigiúil. However, it notes that failure to publish will not affect the validity of the office's establishment. Section 15 allows the Courts Service, subject to consultation, to change or remove the functions of any constituent office of a combined court office, other than any business relating to the Special Criminal Court.

Section 16 requires that the Courts Service must consult with the Chief Justice or President of the relevant court before establishing a combined court office. Section 17 provides a power for the Government to make an order applying these sections to the business of the Special Criminal Court, obviously excluding the judicial business of that court. Section 18 provides for certain legal consequences to follow where business of a court office is transacted in a combined court office. Sections 19 to 22 provide for the staffing arrangements which may apply in a combined office. For example, section 20 confers on a combined court office manager the management and control in regard to all matters of general administration of the combined court office, subject to the general directions of the Courts Service. In the case of the new complex this manager has already been appointed and has been overseeing preparations for some time. Section 22(2) enables any member of Courts Service staff to act as registrar to the Central Criminal Court, the Court of Criminal Appeal, the Courts-Martial Appeal Court or the Circuit Court, where those courts form part of a combined court office. This provision will allow for flexibility and maximise use of available staff and accommodation.

Section 23 makes provision to ensure the continuity of the administration of justice or of the business of a court office affected is not interrupted by the establishment, variation of the functions or disestablishment of a combined courts office. Section 24 amends the Courts Service Act 1998 to incorporate in the powers conferred on the Courts Service under that Act the powers given to it under the Bill to establish, vary the functions of or disestablish a combined court office.

Section 25 is the first section in the fourth part of the Bill which covers a number of provisions relating to bail. It amends section 22 of the Criminal Procedure Act 1967 and will have the effect of conferring on a District Court clerk power to take bail recognisances, where the District Court has admitted a person to bail with immediate effect when remanding that person or sending him forward for trial or sentence. Section 26 amends section 24 of Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act 1851. The effect of this section is to extend the categories of persons who may take bail recognisance, where bail has been fixed by the District Court pending an appeal to include a District Court clerk, a prison governor and prison officer.

I am conscious these provisions are technical and I thank Senators for their patience. The Courts Acts generally are highly procedural. They comprise over 100 statutes, many of which date from before independence. However, in co-operation with the Department, the Law Reform Commission is working on valuable legislation to codify the provisions. This will be of great assistance both to practitioners and anyone wishing to access the courts. The provisions set out in the Bill will, once enacted, make their own small but important contribution to greater efficiency. I trust all Members will support the measures proposed and I commend the Bill to the Seanad.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. This Bill, which has Fine Gael's support, is designed to modernise and improve efficiency in the courts. It has been necessitated by the need to ensure the new Criminal Courts of Justice complex operates effectively and functions appropriately. The building of the aforementioned complex is a wonderful development and will be beneficial for the court system and for court efficiencies. The Courts Service has done wonderful work in modernising the court system since its establishment. This complex will deal with all central Dublin criminal business, including that pertaining to the District and Circuit Court, as well as the Central Criminal Court, the Special Criminal Court and the Court of Criminal Appeal. This is to be welcomed.

The Bill underpins a streamlined management procedure for this complex. In so far as the Irish Prison Service will be given responsibility for managing the central holding facility for people in custody and will have control over all persons held there, including those who have not been committed to prison by the courts, it will help to free Garda time for other operational duties and will avoid duplication. The establishment of a holding area officer also is welcome and the designation of a single administrative office rather than an office for each court jurisdiction is appropriate.

I note the miscellaneous provision regarding the taking of recognisances by the District Court clerk in certain instances. I wonder whether this proposal has been thought through and how it would operate in practice in a busy court in which a judge makes orders in respect of bail and recognisance. There is much business to be conducted in the court and I wonder whether, if there is a handing up to the clerk of a recognisance in the court, it would slow down the court's business. For example, if anything interferes with the flow of business in the Bridewell court, it can slow down the process. The determination of bail in respect of ascertaining who will provide the recognisance and what member of the family will provide the money takes time. I appreciate this measure has been introduced to facilitate the process but I wonder whether it will do so in practice.

The Minister of State has mentioned that he proposes to table an amendment on Committee Stage and I reserve my position on it. However, in many ways this is a straightforward Bill. Its theme is efficiency and it is designed to facilitate the new criminal court complex. Fine Gael is fully supportive of the Bill. I reserve my position in respect of some minor amendments which may be relevant to ensuring the object of the legislation is achieved but otherwise I commend the Bill to the House.

Lisa McDonald (Fianna Fail)
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I also welcome the Minister of State to the House and wish to signal my support for the Bill. As the Minister of State noted, courts Acts in general are quite technical and do not contain anything exciting. At the same time, however, when the Courts Service or courts offices do not work or, as Senator Regan mentioned, business does not flow, it can cause a great deal of angst, strife and vexation for victims, practitioners, judges and everyone involved in the administration of justice. The changes contained in this Bill are quite minor as this legislation has been prompted by the construction of the new criminal courts complex in Dublin. While I look forward to visiting it and seeing it in operation, it seems to be a state-of-the-art complex in which every need of victims, practitioners and courts staff will be met. The bringing under one roof in Dublin of all those courts to enable the High Court to become the central High Court for civil cases again is welcome. Obviously security issues will be easier to deal with in the new complex. For example, I note that one of its design features is to minimise the proximity of victims to the accused and it also provides for remote video links etc. which is welcome. In another recent development, the Courts Service introduced a new on-line accounting system which helps to free up staff time in respect of dealing with other matters and which is highly worthwhile.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Like others Senators, I welcome the provisions included in the Bill. For the main part, the Bill is technical and deals with the coming into being of the new criminal courts complex. Other Senators have paid tribute to the Courts Service and the Department for the efficient and timely near-completion of the complex. I have spoken with colleagues who are criminal law practitioners and people involved in the prosecution service and understand the building is due to come on stream in early December, although the Minister referred to the end of this month. In any case, it is earlier than previously anticipated. From the Minister's nod, I think it might be December rather than November.

According to those who have seen the complex, it will be a major improvement. I am a member of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights and look forward to the committee's visit to the new complex. In particular, we welcome the provision of a reception area for jurors. In my days in the Circuit Criminal Court I remember the chaos that ensued as prospective jurors mingled with members of the public, gardaí, prison officers, accused persons, solicitors and barristers at the side of the Four Courts building, in Courts Nos. 24, 25 and 26. Improvements have been made in the provision of accommodation for jurors, witnesses, vulnerable witnesses and victims. There will be greatly enhanced provisions for these categories, which is particularly welcome in the case of victims. Research I have conducted and that carried out by others on the need for greater provision for victims shows that one of the key complaints victims tend to have concerns the physical space they are provided with in court premises. All too often, they are left in close proximity to the accused or members of his or her family. This can be very traumatic and distressing for victims and vulnerable witnesses. I welcome the new era of criminal trials that the Bill will herald, where appropriate space will be provided for such persons and they can remain separate. This is also important for accused persons.

There has been some griping among practitioners. Deputy Rabbitte has commented on the fact that practitioners can no longer switch between civil and criminal work as they currently do at the Bar. They will now be much more inclined to confine themselves to one area of work. That is not necessarily a bad thing and might explain why an unprecedented number of criminal practitioners recently took silk in the Law Library. As Deputy Rabbitte suggested, the Minister could start a barge service along the river to facilitate those who wish to move between the Four Courts and the criminal complex. That is a somewhat light-hearted comment but joking aside many of those engaged in criminal trial work must be engaged in civil work also because of judicial reviews. Senator MacDonald referred to one such review under way. There is a major increase in the number of judicial reviews arising from criminal proceedings. There has been great expansion in this area; therefore, it is important there remains a crossover in so far as criminal practitioners can also be engaged in judicial reviews arising from trials.

I welcome the bulk of the Bill and compliment the Courts Service on bringing the new building on stream. It marks an improvement in the running of criminal trials. Many of the provisions of the Bill are administrative in nature and give effect to the move. The Labour Party submitted amendments on Committee and Report Stages in the Dáil but the Minister did not accept them. I intend to resubmit the amendments to Part 2 of the Bill as they deserve substantive comment.

Part 1 is the preliminary Part of the Bill; Part 3 deals with the combined courts office, while Part 4 deals with miscellaneous provisions. There can be no issue with these. I welcome the expansion in Part 4 of the category of persons who can take recognisances. This will improve the efficiency of the system and is a welcome change.

Part 2 of the Bill deals with temporary custody. I take the Minister's point that it deals with the difficulty where persons have tended to remain in Garda custody when in holding cells in court. This change facilitate will their removal into the custody of the Irish Prison Service. The Labour Party amendment in the Dáil sought to place a limitation on the persons who could be placed in temporary custody. Sections 6 and 7 refer to prisoners, within the meaning of the Prisons Act 2007, but section 7 extends the reference to include other persons. I presume this must relate to section 6(2) which deals with a person lawfully in the custody of the Garda Síochána but the Labour Party amendment seeks to make it specific. Take Y

That is important because we may generally describe these as administrative or technical provisions but Part 2 deals with the deprivation of liberty and we must be very careful about how these provisions are framed. We must ensure they are framed in as tight and as narrow a way as possible to ensure we do not in any way encroach on constitutional rights to liberty. Will the Minister of State consider placing this limitation on the definition of "person" in section 7? I will make this point again on Committee and Report Stages.

Section 7(b) allows for the holding in temporary custody of people not only for the purpose of making their own court appearance - where one assumes they would be the accused - but also their participation as a witness or in another capacity in a court hearing involving them. This might require more caution and I would like to know what the Minister of State envisages that this section will cover. On Committee Stage, we may want to tease out what exactly this is designed to cover. Why would a person be held in temporary custody? One assumes it is somebody who is already serving a sentence and is being asked to appear as a witness in another trial or who may be appearing as an accused in another trial. The phrase, "in another capacity" is very broadly drafted given that we are speaking about the deprivation of liberty. Another aspect of this relates to the safeguards for persons placed in temporary custody.

Section 10 facilitates the handing over of medications to the holding area officer, which is very practical and section 11 deals with the functions of the holding area officer, including granting the power of search to the holding area officer. We should examine this in more detail on Committee and Report Stages.

I want to ask the Minister of State about section 12. It is a facilitative section, allowing the Minister to prescribe the standards to be employed in the safekeeping of a person who has been placed in temporary custody. What type of regulations are envisaged to be applied? It rings alarm bells for me. This will provide for persons who, for the most part, have been convicted of offences to be held in custody by the Prison Service. Those convicted would now be held on a different premise, for the purpose of appearing in court in another matter or participating in a court hearing as a witness or in the unspecified other capacity. However, we are not being told what are the safeguards; we are simply told the Minister will prescribe. What are the criteria by which the Minister will prescribe safeguards? What reference point will he or she have for the development of standards? I am conscious that custody regulations and prison rules are already in place but I am not clear to which standards the Minister will refer because they are rather different.

In sections 5 to 12, which make up Part 2 of the Bill and which deal with temporary custody, there is no limitation on the length of time a person can spend in custody. The Minister of State mentioned the very diverse range of courts Acts. I was aware that they were being codified and I am delighted the Minister of State has confirmed this. It is long overdue and a welcome development. Undoubtedly, those in the Law Reform Commission are the best people to develop this codification. The Minister of State is aware that at present, the Courts Acts provide for various time limits for which persons may be held in custody prior to court appearances. The Minister of State will recall that "as soon as practicable" was the formula used in one Act and "forthwith" has been used in other Acts.

I should declare an interest because I was involved in a case where the meaning of "forthwith" in that context was considered. The question was for how long one could hold a person lawfully in custody prior to bringing him or her to court where the obligation was to bring him or her to court "forthwith". We won a case in the Supreme Court on that basis and the legislation was subsequently changed. People may well be held for periods of hours or days under these provisions. Will the Minister of State clarify whether it is envisaged that anyone would be held overnight in temporary custody? My reading of the Minister of State's speech is that it is not envisaged and that what is envisaged is simply a transference for a matter of hours to a holding cell of people who are already being held by the Garda under other powers while they wait to be called up before a judge.

There is nothing in the Bill about time limits but there are plenty of references to time limits in other legislation providing the Garda with powers to hold people in custody. How will that tally with the provisions here for temporary custody, undefined as they are? Perhaps "temporary" is the only word that implies there is any time limit and for me that raises issues. According to section 5, "'temporary custody' shall be construed in accordance with subsections (1) and (2) of section 6" but there is no sense there of any outer limit. Clearly, it is anticipated that it would be for a matter of hours as people wait for the court list to be gone through, but Senator McDonald already referred to difficulties with court lists. A court list may go over to another day. In that case, will a person be capable of being held in temporary custody overnight?

I raise these issues with the Minister of State to ensure the Bill can be brought into effect in as timely a way as possible and that the operation of the new courts complex will be as smooth as possible. As I stated, I very much welcome the Bill and I recognise that most of its provisions are purely technical. However, I urge some caution that the provisions under Part 2 relate to the deprivation of liberty.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Unlike some other speakers my profession was not in the courtroom, which I sometimes regret because of the lucrative nature of ploughing one's trade in the hallowed halls of those establishments-----

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Always a dig.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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-----and finding oneself in a position where one can charge people whatever one likes which has no bearing on the cost to oneself or to the amount of time one gives.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Not if one works in the criminal legal aid scheme.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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On the Bill.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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This is relevant to the Bill because the Bill is designed to improve the efficiencies of the system, which I welcome. The main provisions of the Bill will enhance the system and, it is hoped, will improve value for money in the courts area, if that is at all possible. It is interesting that a motion signed by many on this side of the House, which I am informed will be tabled in the near future, on limiting the fees for senior counsel to €969 per day failed to get the support of esteemed colleagues, legal or otherwise, on the other side of the House.

The Bill deals with the maintenance of prisoners in custody and how they are dealt with. The purpose of the Bill is to allow the Prison Service to take custody and not involve Gardaí in the court system. This will have a beneficial effect. Many attempts have been made to increase community policing and the visibility of gardaí on the streets. We have debated that issue on previous occasions and a former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform made improvements in that area where administrative roles in the Garda Síochána were opened to civilians. That has had some effect, as will this, to free up gardaí who are well-qualified and quite well paid and whose job it is to deal with crime. This may provide a template for extension to other areas. The courts are often timed around the convenience of the Judiciary and the legal system rather than gardaí and those who have a serious and responsible job in maintaining order in society, and this creates a certain imbalance in how the system operates. Take Z

Anything that tackles and improves this is to be welcomed.

We have talked here before about video evidence. Under this Bill, court clerks will be authorised to deal with people when they are brought before them for bail reconnaissance. We should consider such changes in the system. Much more use should be made of videoconferencing and so on in remanding prisoners. The idea of having to bring prisoners any distance to court, with all the attendant costs, for purely technical or legal formalities is unpalatable. Obviously people must be able to defend themselves properly and effectively when charged, but common sense must prevail within the system and the current arrangements often defy logic. It has been mentioned that Thornton Hall, when built, will have a court system within it. Wheatfield is another example in this regard. Prisoners do not need to be transported long distances with all the attendant costs.

The Courts Service deserves some recognition for the manner in which it is dealing with certain issues, especially infrastructural issues. However, I have done some homework by talking to people who worked within the Courts Service but do not work there now, and I was aghast to find that many of the inefficiencies we have identified within other public services are just as common within the Courts Service. The culture of not doing things in a cost-effective way is just as evident, including the engagement of professionals. Often, those who command - or seek, depending on one's point of view - the highest fees are engaged, which prevents the service from taking on people in the most cost-effective way. It may be argued that the best often equates to the most expensive, and thus the most expensive professionals are the correct ones to engage. However, the reality from a business perspective is that this is not always the case.

I do not want to refer to the Courts Service in a derogatory way as a quango, but it is one of the agencies that was set up as an offshoot of the public service where Executive discretion no longer has an influence on what goes on. Many of these agencies become empires in their own right, and the interest of the taxpayer frequently does not get the priority it needs. With the significant downturn in public finances, which will be with us for many years to come, it behoves us to investigate every such body to ensure they are forced to operate to the highest standards of efficiency, cost effectiveness and value for money for the taxpayer.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Just like the Government.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Unlike-----

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Good standards.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Unlike Fine Gael, when it was in Government, and unlike the manner in which the legal profession in particular has treated the taxpayer through the tribunals and so on. People have no qualms of conscience whatsoever about sending bills of €2,000 to €3,000 per day for doing small amounts of work-----

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator agrees with me then.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator Regan. It is absolute greed.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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The Government agrees.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The greatest manifestation of greed we have seen in our society is from the legal profession, as the good Senator opposite will be fully aware.

Déirdre de Búrca (Green Party)
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I welcome the Minister and the opportunity to debate the Courts and Court Officers Bill 2009. Like Senator Walsh, I must admit to feeling at a slight disadvantage. I am not a legal practitioner and thus am not on the receiving end of some of Senator Walsh's criticisms, but I have been a litigant once or twice and a defendant in one or two minor cases and I was struck by the volume of people going through the courts. This obviously puts pressure on the court offices and the Courts Service.

Because I am not familiar with this area, I looked at the annual report of the Courts Service where I found that the functions of the service are wide ranging and important. It manages the courts, supports the Judiciary, provides services to court users, provides and maintains court buildings and provides information on the courts to the public. It is important that the service is working effectively and efficiently. However, as others have mentioned, we are facing difficult times with regard to our public finances, and the Courts Service will need to conduct its services with less money. We must try to ensure that whatever changes take place do not have a negative impact on the front-line services, particularly customer and courtroom services.

I welcome the Bill. While it is largely technical in nature, it will introduce much more efficient operational procedures into the Courts Service which will be put into effect at the new Criminal Courts of Justice when it is opened, although the date for that is still up in the air. It will streamline procedures for custody arrangements, prevent the duplication of duties by the Garda Síochána and free gardaí for operational duties.

The Bill alters some of the structures that were put in place by earlier courts legislation so that the service can prepare for the move to the Criminal Courts of Justice complex near the Phoenix Park. This will be quite an impressive facility with 450 rooms, 22 courtrooms and ancillary facilities, and vastly improved facilities generally for both staff and the Judiciary. It will enable the courts staff to operate in a single administrative office in support of all the courts, of which there are 22, including the Central Criminal Court, the Court of Criminal Appeal, the Special Criminal Court, the Dublin Circuit Criminal Court and the Dublin District Court. These will all be located in the new facility. This will allow for improved flexibility in staff arrangements, which will be important in years to come.

The Bill hopes to achieve administrative efficiencies by consolidating the court offices on a thematic, that is, criminal, basis. The District Court deals with approximately 450,000 cases per year while the Supreme Court deals with fewer than 500. Section 15 will allow the criminal aspects of the High Court office to be relocated to the Phoenix Park office while retaining a civilian jurisdiction in the existing office in the Four Courts. The Bill also requires that the head of each office, the senior sitting judge, be consulted before any such consolidated office can be established. Section 17 also allows for the administrative business of the Special Criminal Court to be dealt with by a nominated court office.

The remainder of Part 3 combines the court offices into the existing legislative structures. Essentially, the sections clarify that all previous references to a court office should be read in future as including a reference to the new combined office. Section 23 provides that there be no disruption to court business or filing of documents where court offices are being reconfigured and jurisdiction is being transferred. This is important to avoid the kind of upheaval that can sometimes occur when there is a reconfiguration of services.

Some of the other technical changes made by the Bill, as others have mentioned, are in the area of bail recognisance. I was obliged to educate myself about bail recognisance which is an obligation or bond made before a court for a person to perform some act, for example, to appear before a court or ensure the attendance of an accused person at a trial. Take AA

The various courts have slightly different rules as to who can enter a recognisance. A bond or recognisance does not always have to be entered by an individual. Where it is required from a person, the judge may accept an instrument executed by a solvent person, corporation or insurance company. In the context of bail, recognisance will be estreated, that is, forfeited on foot of a special procedure in circumstances where the person fails to appear and a warrant for arrest is issued or the person is brought before the court and the court is satisfied that he or she has contravened the terms of the recognisance.

Under the Criminal Procedure Act 1967, recognisances may be taken by a District Court judge, a District Court clerk, a peace commissioner, the governor of a prison or a prison officer designated by a prison governor. The Act provided the District Court with the options of either requiring the accused to enter a judicially determined recognisance into court or of refusing bail and remanding him or her into custody. Section 18 of the Criminal Justice Act 2007 allowed the District Court judge a third option of a non-monetary recognisance, in recognition of the circumstances faced by many people in this situation. However, the wording of the Act gave rise to the potential interpretation that only a District Court judge could take a non-monetary recognisance. An amendment in this Bill allows for District Court clerks to receive this form of recognisance where the court has admitted a person to bail as part of being remanded or sent for trial or sentence. Effectively, it allows for the administrative act of taking a non-monetary recognisance to be undertaken by a District Court clerk rather than a judge.

The Bill also provides for changes in the area of temporary custody. There has been a gradual shift from employing gardaí for escort duties and transfers of prisoners for court appearances are now largely carried out by the Prison Service escort corps, which is based in Cloverhill Prison in west Dublin and has a staff of 156 and a fleet of 52 vehicles. However, occasions arise when gardaí have to resume escort duties. Part 2 of the Bill aims both to resolve these jurisdictional issues and reduce the resource burden of escorting prisoners to and from prisons in advance of the completion of the Central Criminal Court complex by allowing custody facilities to be managed by the Prison Service. While the default position is that prisoners will remain under the jurisdiction and physical control of the Prison Service officers on their way to and from court appearances, section 6 of the Bill provides that a prisoner may lawfully be placed temporarily under the control of a garda or a prison governor in a court house or place adjacent to a court house.

Section 11 of the Bill provides that the holding area officer may use such force as is necessary to carry out his or her duties in respect of temporary custody. Section 11(2) provides that the series of rules dealing with all aspects of prison regulation will only apply so in so far as they deal with the regulation of searches conducted in the temporary holding facility. Section 12 also provides that the Minister may make regulations on the standard and procedures relating to the orderly management of any place in which a person is held. I share Senator Bacik's concerns about this section and ask for clarification on it. If it is intended to introduce safeguards for prisoners who have not yet been prosecuted of found guilty or who may be appearing as a witness, it is important that we provide proper safeguards for their treatment while in temporary custody. Otherwise, I welcome this technical but important Bill, which will achieve greater efficiencies and cost savings in the Courts Service.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Ba bhreá liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire Stáit. Tacaím leis an mBille seo. Creidim go féidir linn leasuithe a dhéanamh a bheadh ar leas an phobail ó thaobh riaracháin agus costais a sparáil de.

The Bill makes provision for the following three matters: a custody facility at the new criminal courts of justice complex in the Phoenix Park to be managed by the Irish Prison Service and for similar custody facilities at other courts, the establishment of a combined courts office to enable courts staff to operate in a single administrative office in support of all courts and to facilitate the acceptance of bail recognisance by District Court clerks in relation to persons remanded on bail in the District Court.

The first matter, custody facilities at the courts, deserves further study. Part 2 of the Bill will allow the Prison Service to manage a central holding facility for people in custody and have control over all persons held, including those who have not been committed to prison. The Bill allows for the temporary transfer of custody to a holding area officer only for the purpose of facilitating a court appearance by a person or the holding of a court hearing involving that person. The Prison Service will be responsible for the custody of persons in holding cells in the courts who have until now remained in Garda custody.

This might reduce the Garda's reliance on station bail with the result that more accused persons might be held in custody and brought directly to court. As charging and court appearances might now occur very quickly even in minor offences, this could put unfair pressure on the accused and restrict his or her opportunities for more detailed consultations with legal advisers. From the point of view of ensuring due process, people brought directly to court for summary offences, such as threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour, failing to comply with a direction of a Garda or being drunk and disorderly, may still be in an animated state when brought before the courts. This might result in more unsympathetic judgments than would occur where the same people are sober, washed and contrite. In minor offences, an accused may lack a genuine opportunity to find and persuade character witnesses to testify and gather more impressive damages or poor box contributions. The Minister of State may hold a different view but I raise these issues because I want to see an efficient system which guarantees due process and fair access to justice.

It is not clear to me how the provision for a combined courts office will improve matters. For example, how will a new High Court administrative office change the running of the High Court?

The provision on acceptance of bail recognisance by District Court clerks is phrased in almost exactly the same terms as the amendment to section 22 of the Criminal Procedure Act 1967 made by the Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Act 2007. Why is the same provision considered a necessary part of this Bill?

John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senators Regan, MacDonald, Bacik, Walsh, de Búrca and Mullen for their contributions to Second Stage on this technical but important Bill. I acknowledge the support expressed on all sides for the Bill. While a number of issues raised by Senators can be more thoroughly addressed on Committee Stage, I wish to respond in a more general way.

The provision on bail recognisance is intended to avoid interruptions to the flow of business. It allows for situations where people require short extensions of time to make their bail arrangements. Take BB

It extends to the District Court clerk the power to take the bail recognisance, which means the party would not have to return to interrupt the court, in other words, the procedure could be completed administratively in a back office.

I will not address all of the points raised by Senator Bacik. On the issue of victims, about which she spoke in detail, the physical environment for victims going to court will be significantly improved, which is important. The Senator also referred to custody standards. These standards depend on the status of the detained, by which is meant that if a person is detained as a prisoner, he or she will be subject to the standards applying under the prison regulations, while a person in Garda custody will be subject to the Garda custody regulations.

The Senator also referred to the amendment tabled by Deputy Rabbitte on Committee Stage in the Dáil which was rejected because it referred to a prisoner being in the custody of a member of the Garda Síochána. This would never be the case as a prisoner may only be in the legal custody of a governor. I understand this explanation was accepted by Deputy Rabbitte.

Senator Bacik also asked about temporary custody. A time is not established in the Bill. Temporary custody only arises to facilitate a person's appearance in court. Once the court process is completed, the person detained will either be released on foot of a court order or returned to the person in whose custody he or she was originally. Equally, should the court hearing not proceed, the temporary custody will cease and the person will be returned to the original custody. As the Senator correctly noted, the Bill sets out clearly the start and end of temporary custody periods.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for clarifying the matter.

John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Senator McDonald referred to Garda time being wasted and the need to free up Garda services. I understand the Garda Inspectorate has examined this issue and recommended the extended use of the court presenters. The obvious benefit of such a decision would be to address the issue raised by the Senator.

Senator Walsh raised many issues.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Most of them were irrelevant.

John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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He spoke, for example, about inefficiencies in the Courts Service. The service has made significant strides in improving levels of efficiency and service. I referred to some of the improvements implemented in the past decade. The Judiciary is directly involved in developing and implementing these improvements and modernisation measures.

Senators will be familiar with the phrase, "Much done but more to do". The Courts Service is engaged in a wide-ranging efficiency review which focuses on all the businesses in which it engages. I understand the review will be completed at the end of this year or thereabouts.

The purpose of the Bill is to streamline the management procedure and provide for the efficient operation of the new criminal court justice complex. While Senators support the Bill in broad terms, I recognise that Senator Bacik has indicated her intention to introduce one or two amendments which the House will examine in detail on Committee Stage. The Bill also provides for a unified staff structure and builds on the modernisation and streamlined management structures introduced in the past decade by the Courts Service. This measure is timely in the light of the current financial position and the need to ensure maximum efficiency in the deployment of limited resources, including staff.

I am pleased Senators have recognised the necessity of the legislation and are broadly supportive of it. I look forward to returning to the House, perhaps next week, to deal with Committee Stage.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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On Tuesday next.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 10 November 2009.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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At 10.30 a.m. on Monday, 9 November.