Seanad debates
Wednesday, 25 February 2009
Order of Business (Resumed)
11:00 am
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I wish to ask the Leader three questions. To echo other speakers on this side of the House, will the Leader arrange for the Minister for Education and Science to attend the House in respect of the loss of teaching posts? Staffing schedules for schools are issuing and have issued in the past week. Schools are up in arms because so many posts are being lost to the children. At a joint committee, the Minister told me that English language teaching posts would not be lost, but the reverse seems to be the case. There is total confusion.
Like other Senators, I am delighted that the Garda and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement have moved on Anglo Irish Bank. Given that international confidence in our banking system is at an all-time low, the move was necessary. No regulation has worked and the situation has been too cosy. Moreover, the move was necessary in terms of public confidence. Businesses have told me that they are experiencing difficulties collecting money due to them. It is not the case that people do not have the money owed. Rather, they are not ashamed to refuse to pay thanks to the poor example being set by the top. It has come to this because the Government has not set a good example and tackled white collar crime. We must move on the matter and the Government must send the message that——
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader ask the Cabinet to send a message to the effect that people must pay their bills? I know of a man with a family business employing 44 people.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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To be honest, we do not want to know about specific personal situations.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The point has been made to the Leader.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Last week, it could only collect €32,000 because debtors have seen that they can get away with not paying their bills. No shame has been shown.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We must seriously consider the shaky banking situation. Billions of euro have left the country and people have been asking me where is secure, the same question that I ask the Leader. Were the Government guarantee called in, would it be good enough? This is how worried people are.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We can discuss all of this during Private Members' business.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We must bring stability to the banking system. In that context——
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I have a question for the Leader.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I am in the Chair and I will dictate.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I would appreciate it if the Senator put questions to the Leader. All of these matters can be discussed during the debate scheduled for tonight, which will last for two hours. It is questions to the Leader and I have been easy on many Members.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I will ask my question in the spirit shown this morning. For the sake of the country, will the Leader ask the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, to work co-operatively with Deputy Bruton, who has offered constructive solutions to the banking crisis? Deputy Burton and Senator Ross would also be willing. This is not a national Government proposal. Rather, it is a question of seeking the competence——
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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——of the serious financial heads in the Houses to solve our country's——
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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As Mr. Sutherland stated, we must move quickly.
Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I have listened to this morning's contributions with interest. Some Senators have spoken as if the serious economic difficulties gripping the world are of no concern to us or have no implications for us.
When Members make a contribution, they should appreciate and understand, as a small island nation in the free market, the implications the present global problems have for weaker nations. Equally, Members should neither underestimate the challenge facing us nor overstate our difficulties. Individually, Members must send out a clear message of positivity to the effect they have firmness of resolve, unity of purpose and the determination to succeed. I make this point because I support Senator Quinn's comments regarding unity of purpose. Other world leaders, such as President Obama last night, also have made the point that, together, we can climb out of this crisis and this mess.
Mary WhiteIvor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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However, this only can be done by working together.
Some months ago, I asked the Leader whether he would discuss with the other group leaders in the House putting in place a structure within the proceedings of the House that would allow Members to deal with topical issues. It would be done in order that Members could deal with whatever was the topical issue, be it economic, financial, educational, health related or whatever, and would be incorporated into the schedule of the House's business. This would be helpful and I support its incorporation into the schedule of the House. The Leader should respond as to how the discussions with the other group leaders progressed in that regard.
I wish to raise two further issues with the Leader. First, in respect of education, concern has been expressed regarding the loss of teachers and the capital building programme. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Education and Science to put in place an official at the end of a helpline who would explain the implications or procedures that have been adopted in respect of these two issues?
Second, I seek clarification from the Minister for Defence regarding the decision not to raise the Asgard II. Should the Asgard II be left on the seabed where it lies, will there be other cost implications? Will the French authorities ask us to raise it and so on?
Jerry ButtimerFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should ask Deputy O'Dea.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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There has been much discussion today on competitiveness and the remarks made on the radio by the Tánaiste this morning. However, the Leader should ask the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, to explain the reason she has announced a salary of €240,000 for hospital consultants on this side of the Border when consultants are paid £100,000 north of the Border for doing more or less the same job.
Jim WalshLiam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Perhaps she can explain the competitiveness of that issue.
Moreover, the Minister, Deputy Harney, should appear before the House to explain why, although she spoke last year of 1,000 redundancies in the Health Service Executive's administration, all that have been seen since the beginning of the year are plans to close 11 hospitals, reduce home help services to elderly people and remove services to people with disabilities. Only yesterday, it was announced that she intends to close 27 beds in Wexford General Hospital, 21 of which only were opened four years ago. The Minister should appear before the House to discuss such issues with regard to competitiveness and how it affects the health service, rather than the waffle I hear from Government representatives.
I wish to make a point in respect of the Government's seeking of support from the Opposition. Although it received such support during the Lisbon treaty campaign, it was thrown back at us.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Although it received such support for the bank guarantee, it was never appreciated.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Members on this side of the House do not intend to suffer from Stockholm syndrome. If the Government seeks the help of Opposition Members, they will be reasonable about its proposals. At present however, only smart-alec talk can be heard from the Government side. Its Members have no interest in working for the national interest and are present only for their own interest. If the Government is serious and if the Taoiseach desires a national Government, why does he not meet the party leaders?
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Why does he not meet the party leaders and ask them whether some of their Members wish to join the Cabinet and work on behalf of the Government?
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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A crisis, by its nature, stultifies motivation and certainly slows down progress and solutions. Often, a turning point comes in such a crisis unexpectedly. The ingredient for such a turning point often comes without any fanfare. A good example is provided by the situation in Northern Ireland. Members debated the issue many times and felt there was no way out of it. Then however, when least expected, such a resolution happened. I believe Members have experienced the ingredient of a turning point in this House this morning, which was provided by Senator Quinn. I believe he may have provided Members with a watershed that will give them the potential to go forward in a united manner. For instance, I do not believe that the Opposition perceives its role solely in terms of opposing.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. He is right.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I believe Opposition Members perceive themselves to be watchdogs, and much more besides, in the democratic system. This is exactly as it should be. They also are reflecting the anger and disappointment that obtains at present. However, when all that has finished, one moves on to a new phase.
At the outset of this debate many months ago, I saluted Alan Dukes. I can remember that at the time, one or two Opposition Members would not even allow me to finish the sentence. The only reason I mentioned Alan Dukes was because of his courage. He also provided the ingredients for a turning point at that time. Members should not underestimate the contribution made by Senator Quinn this morning. I have no doubts regarding its significance because of its source. I believe Members will hear a lot more about this contribution in the coming months.
Alan Kelly (Labour)
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I welcome the action taken by the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement in the past 24 hours, which is essential from a symbolic perspective. While one must await developments, the people must see action. Although they now are seeing it, they need to see more such action from the Government to indicate how the investigation into the banks will be advanced and to create the conditions under which this cannot happen again. Members may not be aware that the European Commission is considering the area of regulation from a European perspective as a layer above national regulation for banking. Members should welcome this initiative because it would offer some protection that may not be afforded at national level at present. It should be embraced and is something Ireland should play its part in trying to shape as this is a European issue as much as it is an Irish issue. While particular components are Irish in outlook, a wider issue certainly exists and we need to play our part on the European stage.
I fully agree with Senator Twomey. I have raised this issue on the Order of Business a number of times. The current development in respect of hospital consultants in Ireland is wrong. The proposed level of pay for such consultants is wrong. The point has been made on all sides of the House that comparative analysis of salaries on this island reveals a complete disparity. Moreover, I raised the issue in respect of back pay with the Leader last week. While a statement has been made in this regard, its payment only has been postponed. I do not believe it ever should be paid. The issue that people pay consultants €200 to €300 for a consultation must be considered. Such individuals are paid between €220,000 and €260,000 per year and can practise privately in public hospitals and may earn up to equal that amount again. This is ridiculous. In six months' time, will any of the consultants concerned have dropped their charges? My bet is they will not unless forced to so do and this must be addressed immediately.
Larry Butler (Fianna Fail)
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I am greatly heartened by the tenor in the House this morning regarding responsibility, which is taken seriously by all sides. Senator Quinn has touched on the point superbly. He has asked Members on all sides, regardless of their beliefs, to consider putting on the green jersey together and to put their shoulders to the wheel. That is what the public expects us to do. The debate has moved on. There is much anger among the public.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Does Senator Butler have a question for the Leader?
Larry Butler (Fianna Fail)
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I will form my question to the Leader if the Cathaoirleach will allow me to do so. It is important that I be allowed to develop the question.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I reluctantly allowed time for Senator Butler because he indicated some time ago. However, I have asked Members to be brief in their questions to the Leader because time is limited.
David Norris (Independent)
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Will the Cathaoirleach put pressure on the Leader to extend the time allowed for the Order of Business?
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask that Members allow Senator Butler to conclude without interruptions.
Larry Butler (Fianna Fail)
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We have been badly let down by the banking system. In the European context, I welcome this morning's statement that there will be a higher layer of law to ensure we have a more strict and better run banking system. The public will demand that. The Leader should give us time to put ideas together. I welcome Fine Gael's motion and am in agreement with much of it.
I agree with Senator Walsh that the Government must re-enter talks with the social partners. Time should be allocated for a debate in this regard. I urge Senator O'Toole to use his influence in this matter. There are more intelligent routes to pursue than opting for strikes and causing widespread disruption to services. That is exactly what we do not need at this time. Senator Quinn's proposal should be developed. Will the Leader engage with him to ascertain his suggestions in this regard? It is important that we learn something every day in this House.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Before responding to the Order of Business, I offer the sympathies of the House to the Government Whip on the sudden death of his mother last night. It is a terrible time for any family when one of its number dies suddenly. Our thoughts and prayers are with Senator Wilson, his wife and family on this Ash Wednesday morning.
Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Alex White, Coffey, Donohoe, Boyle, Leyden, Norris, Walsh, Healy Eames, Callely, Ó Murchú and Kelly expressed serious concerns regarding the current crisis in the banking system. This matter will be discussed during Private Members' time today. Friday's debate on the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009 will afford Members a further opportunity to express their views. We are all aware of yesterday's search of the headquarters of Anglo Irish Bank by the Garda fraud squad. Whatever can be done is being done by the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance. Everybody must be given an opportunity to prove their innocence so that natural justice can take its course. I welcome everything that is taking place to ensure the banking system is more transparent so that we all can say we had absolutely nothing to do with it. We, as parliamentarians, put procedures in place and those procedures must be adhered to. If they have to be amended or if new legislation is necessary, neither House will be found wanting, just as we were not found wanting in the past. I say this confidently on behalf of the Taoiseach and the Government.
I too welcome the magnificent state of the union address by the President of the United States, Mr. Barack Obama. God bless him, he is a welcome guest wherever he goes and a shining light to uplift the world. As I have said in this House before, Ireland can only hope to enjoy a corresponding recovery once the United States begins to lift its economy, followed by the United Kingdom. We have a population of 4.5 million and a small, open economy. We have gone down quickly but I am confident we will bounce back just as quickly. We have the best opportunity we have ever had in terms of infrastructural, educational and other tools available to us to meet the challenges of the future. We are facing a global crisis. There is no race to the bottom and we are not talking ourselves down. How uplifting it was to hear President Obama speak last night. I spoke to many friends this morning who waited up until 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. to hear his speech.
We all want to be uplifted. The extent of bad news is one of the reasons that newspaper sales are declining. It is lovely to be able to lift one's mood from time to time by tuning into a country music channel.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is in the real world——
David Norris (Independent)
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I know that I am in the real world but I wonder whether the Leader is.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader should be allowed to continue without interruption.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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As Senator Walsh observed, if the Gallery were full of unemployed people——
David Norris (Independent)
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They could listen to country music and uplift themselves.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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——Members would display more common sense. I never interrupt any Member but it seems to be the fashion now that the more educated one is, the more one interrupts.
Senator Callely and others spoke about the situation in regard to the Asgard II. I have no difficulty in asking the Minister for Defence to come to the House to update us on his proposals in this regard.
Senators Healy Eames, Callely, Fitzgerald, O'Toole and Kelly called for a debate on education in the course of which the Minister would update us on issues relating to his portfolio. I have no difficulty with this proposal. However, Members should bear in mind that, despite the extent of our financial difficulties, more than €600 million is being spent this year under the capital programme.
Senator Alex White called for a debate on retail prices. The Senator's Labour Party colleague, Deputy Penrose, is the Chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment, which is at an advanced stage in its deliberations on the review of the groceries order. I propose we await the conclusion of that review in the coming weeks before inviting the Minister to the House to discuss the challenges identified by the committee. It is interesting to note that members of the previous committee, which was called the Oireachtas Committee on Enterprise and Small Business and which I had the privilege of chairing, were in complete unison on this matter. However, our all-party recommendations were not taken on board.
That committee has been vindicated in this matter. We conducted an in-depth analysis, consultants engaged by the committee worked hard to produce those recommendations and we made our case strongly. We knew what would happen. People must have options. Corner shops and convenience stores continue to provide an important service to society in a situation where the nearest large store is often a drive away. Poorer people may be obliged to hire taxis to bring them shopping outside their home town because there is no longer a corner shop or convenience store. Local shops also offered a service in the past by allowing people a few days' credit to purchase their groceries before they received their wages or social welfare cheque. Now such people must go without. That is another aspect of the issue. There is much to be gained by reviewing the report of the last committee. I hope it will be considered by the House when we deliberate on this matter. Senators Coghlan and Leyden worked hard in formulating that report.
Senators Coffey and McFadden called for a debate on competitiveness. This is the greatest single challenge facing the State. When the global economy begins to improve, the high cost of doing business in Ireland will be to our disadvantage. The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy Cullen, observed on "Questions and Answers" on Monday night that in the case of a particular employer employing in the United States, Scotland and Ireland, the average wage paid in this jurisdiction is €43,000, compared with a figure of €33,000 in the United States and €27,000 in Scotland. That is a serious challenge to us, irrespective of whether the economy is buoyant or down as it is at present. We have to address it and the social partners have a responsibility and duty, as we do as legislators, to see how we can do so. I have no difficulty in providing in the very near future the longest time available for this debate on competitiveness.
Senators Boyle, Walsh, Callely, Ó Murchú and Buttimer referred to the proposal by Senator Quinn to call for support across the political divide for good projects. The call has been made in sincerity and has been received well on all sides of the House. As Senator Ó Murchú said, perhaps this is the start of something positive for this session and the remainder of the year. I support the call.
The views of the former Attorney General were quoted in the House. He is one of the leading businessmen in the world, which I acknowledge despite the fact that he is a member of Fine Gael.
Paudie CoffeyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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That is the strength of Fianna Fáil. We acknowledge that without any favour or compliment because that is our great gift and one is born with it. One either has it or not.
Alex WhiteDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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It seems to be lacking on some occasions in Senator Twomey. I congratulate Mr. Tom Savage, the new chairman of the RTE authority. He has much experience in politics. Senators Norris, Walsh and Callely expressed views on the Order of Business. I strongly suggest they make their views known to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris should speak to his leader who will brief him on those matters.
David Norris (Independent)
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He has briefed me and the last meeting was in November which is an insult to this House.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Twomey and Kelly called for an urgent debate on health issues. I made the request last week and I have no difficulty asking the Minister to attend the House, especially in respect of the high charges of which Senator Twomey has experience, coming from that profession. His views on the charges by consultants must be taken seriously in this House. I compliment the Senator for raising the matter on the Order of Business.
Terry Leyden