Seanad debates
Wednesday, 25 February 2009
Order of Business
10:30 am
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re recasting of the Eurodac regulation, back from committee, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, motion re application for protection by a third country national or stateless person, back from committee, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 1; No. 3, motion re the European criminal records information system, back from committee, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 2; No. 4, statements on the report on the cost and efficiency of Dublin Bus and Bus Ãireann, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 3 and to conclude not later than 1.45 p.m., spokespersons may speak for ten minutes and all other Senators for seven minutes, Senators may share time by agreement of the House, and the Minister to be called upon ten minutes from the conclusion of the debate for concluding comments and to take questions from leaders and spokespersons; No. 5, statements on the protection of intellectual property rights, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 4, but not before 2.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 5 p.m., spokespersons may speak for 15 minutes and all other Senators for ten minutes, Senators may share time by agreement of the House, and the Minister to be called upon ten minutes from the conclusion of the debate for concluding comments and to take questions from leaders and spokespersons; and No. 29, motion 33, Private Members' motion re Irish banking system, to be taken at 5 p.m. and to conclude not later than 7 p.m. The business of the House will be interrupted between 1.45 p.m. and 2.30 p.m.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday the Garda searched the offices of Anglo Irish Bank. While most people welcome this development, I want to raise some questions on the Government's role in this regard. It is very clear the Government knew about the existence of the so-called golden circle for almost a year, yet the matter is only now being investigated. I am obviously aware there are legal constraints but there are certain legitimate questions that must be asked.
The Government also knew about the extraordinary transactions between Irish Life & Permanent and Anglo Irish Bank, yet these are only now being investigated. People throughout the country are asking why it took so long for the Government to act. A reporter who wrote an article in the Irish Independent today spoke to a go-between who stated one member of the golden circle claims not to have been approached by anyone for information on his or her involvement in the matter. In spite of this, the Garda raided the bank yesterday. One wonders, one year on, what evidence will be available in the bank, given that the information has been known for so long.
I raise these questions because the key issue concerns confidence and the Government's overall map. We still have not got from the Government the overall map for national recovery. We have not got the overall map for banking, managing the country's economy or retraining and support for those who have become unemployed. Every day we hear stories of people who are facing extraordinary hardship. We need answers from the Government as to how those becoming unemployed today will receive help, be it in respect of mortgages, retraining or upskilling. These are very serious questions.
The Minister for Education and Science stated this morning that there are 254 teacher posts being lost and the INTO stated there are 1,000. Will the Minister state the rationale for these losses, given that every school is crying out for more support for children with special needs and those who require special attention in one way or other? It seems extraordinary that we face the loss of 1,000 teaching posts. We in this House have called for the protection of front-line services. I am very concerned about this.
The Leader agreed with me yesterday that every effort should be made to protect front-line services. However, without debate in this House or the Dáil, front-line services are being attacked, be it in respect of health or education. Hospitals are being closed down in Dublin and around the country and this is happening without political accountability and without any Minister coming to this House. There is talk of cross-party support but all I hear is denigration of the efforts of the Opposition to put forward constructive solutions. The Government is not accepting our motion tonight, which is very constructive and would give the banking sector a fresh start.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I want to pick up on an issue raised in the House previously and raised just now by Senator Fitzgerald, that is, the loss of teaching posts. When the cuts were announced weeks or months ago, I made the point it would cost 1,000 jobs. The Government side stated the figure would be between 200 and 300. I have analysed the list with the INTO and am absolutely certain it will be 1,000 jobs. The least we should demand is for the Minister for Education and Science to explain how he made his calculation so we can decide whether we were misled deliberately or the Department or those in Government circles just cannot count. We need to see the facts rather than shout abuse across the floor at each other. When we obtain the relevant information, we can debate it. I ask the Leader to prioritise that issue.
President Obama made a highly aspirational speech last night which, while saying very little, raised people from their bootstraps. He sought a united front and to jazz up the whole world. That is extraordinary by comparison with what is occurring here in that, while the Opposition parties have offered their hands across the House to deal with the economic problems in a united manner, the Government has rejected them. ICTU has published a ten-point plan and I have heard nobody reject it out of hand thus far. Various politicians on the Government side have said it is worth discussing. That is another offer of support but it seems it is being rejected also. Bearing in mind that the Minister for Finance asked us some months ago to adopt a patriotic perspective, it is a bit odd that the hand of friendship and support is being rejected when offered.
We will have a chance to discuss some of these issues tonight. The Government's decision on the Fine Gael motion today is simply so old-fashioned and untimely that it demeans politics. If there were points the Government did not agree with, it could have left them out and retained some of the positive measures. I ask that we have a real debate on that tonight in which people will state genuinely what is worth doing and what we might do.
I congratulate the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement on the measure it is taking, although some will say it is too late. When a murder takes place, it is very often weeks before somebody is arrested and two years before the case â I refer to a simple murder case â comes to court. It is often some time after the event before we see action. Where the banks are concerned, we are dealing with the richest people in the country who can buy the best lawyers and the best defence. For the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement or the Garda fraud squad to rush in blindly to address the banking scandal would be absolutely stupid. I want to know they are working on it. I was glad to see the images last night and I am looking forward to the results. However, the matter needs to be addressed properly, forensically, progressively and effectively.
Alex White (Labour)
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I previously called for a debate in this House on the incredible disparity between prices here and those in the North and Great Britain. I and others asked for this debate to be arranged a couple of weeks ago but there is no sign of it. Surely it is a very urgent issue, sufficiently urgent to have the Minister in the House to explain what action, if any, is being taken by her to address the question of price disparities. It appears none is being taken.
I have no problem with having a debate on intellectual property rights this afternoon but, for the life of me, I do not know precisely why we are having it and what it is about. I am in favour of a debate, but there are urgent issues that require to be dealt with today and tomorrow, including the issue of prices, and we are not debating them. Senators Fitzgerald and O'Toole are correct in that not only is the economy grinding to a halt, but the political system is doing so also. We are not allowing debates on issues about which the people on the streets are talking.
With regard to prices, consider what has been happening in recent months. I think it was in the autumn that the question arose in the Dáil, when the Taoiseach had a famous Paul Gogarty moment and said to the Tánaiste that she should bring in certain people and speak to them. Then the Director of Consumer Affairs expressed certain views on the issue of prices, after which there was a Forfás report. Most incredibly, the Tánaiste is not taking action or addressing the issue but, as she stated on the radio this morning, she is asking the Competition Authority to conduct an investigation. When will a Minister make a decision on an urgent question facing the people? Will the Government ever make a decision? As somebody said yesterday, will it constantly off-load and subcontract decisions on serious issues facing us all? We cannot talk about tax because the Commission on Taxation must deal with it, and we might deal with it in next year's budget. We cannot talk about prices because this or that body is being asked to investigate them. From what I can see, the political, parliamentary and government systems are grinding to a halt.
Alex White (Labour)
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Senator O'Toole is absolutely right, although I slightly disagree with him about whether President Obama said anything of substance. He said one thing of considerable substance, which applies to us here. He said that a day of reckoning had arrived in the American economy in regard to decisions that had been put off there for many years, which people were now having to face up to making. The day of reckoning has arrived for the people of this country, for those who have lost their jobs and for those involved in the real economy. Sooner or later the day of reckoning will arrive for the people who made the decisions and those responsible for indecision over a period of ten or 11 years who have us where we are today.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I will call some Senators I missed yesterday first. I call Senator Coffey.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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We have seen serious unrest in society recently, which is worrying. People are very angry about what is happening in the economy, especially with the loss of jobs, the financial pressures on families and the loss of front-line services that my colleague, Senator Fitzgerald, has spoken about, especially in areas such as education and health.
I am also concerned by the evidence that people are turning on each other, namely, public sector workers versus private sector workers, employers versus employees, the rural and farming sector is being criticised by the urbanites and social welfare recipients are being criticised by those who are working. That unrest is of great concern to a society such as ours. I fear there is an underlying sense of anarchy that is ready to surface and we should be ready to act on it.
There are many honest bank employees and some of them are being turned on by the public. That should be a source of great concern to all of us as public representatives. This has all been driven by pure greed. It has been driven by the revelations in the banking system, the lack of corporate governance and the current lack of truth and honesty. The Government must take responsibility for oversight, corporate governance and the governance of the regulatory system. It is only right that the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement and the fraud squad are in Anglo Irish Bank. I hope it is not too little, too late. The full rigours of the law must be brought to bear on the incestuous inter-bank relationship we have witnessed in this country. We need a purge of the banking system at the top level before we can restore integrity and confidence in the system and in the economy. This evening's Fine Gael motion focuses on that. It is disappointing that despite all the soundbites from the Government on improving working relationships in Parliament the Government side has tabled an amendment. It is a pity that has happened.
I call for a debate on employment and competitiveness in this country. Serious pressures are evident in the manufacturing industry. Competitiveness is at an all-time low and we are seriously struggling as an economy. More than 3,600 apprentices have been made redundant in the past year. I congratulate the ESB on its initiative in taking on 400 apprentices to finish their qualifications. I urge other companies to step up to the mark in this regard, for example, Eircom. It was a large semi-State company that has its networks falling down around the country. I would like to see Eircom and other large companies step up to the mark and take on apprentices.
More importantly, I would like to see Government initiatives for apprentices and the unemployed. We need to give hope to young people who are on the dole. It would not cost much to set up schemes to take them off the dole. For example, local authorities have boarded-up houses throughout the country. People could be employed on constructive schemes to re-open houses to take people off the housing list. We need to think outside the box. As a representative of Government, I ask the Leader to get the Government out of the comatose state it is in, start thinking outside the box, send out positive signals to our citizens, take the young people off the dole and give them hope. There are ways and means of doing it and we, as an Opposition, are prepared to assist the Government if it would only listen.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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This is the first day of Lent. It is traditional in Lent that we give up something. I suggest that we have a lot of things to give up. I read years ago that a British politician said it is the duty of the Opposition to oppose. The Opposition should consider whether that is its duty. Perhaps that is something it should give up and it should find a way to support the correct actions.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I have a sense that it needs to be explained in ways that we have not explained up to now.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We could also start accepting it.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I still hear bickering from both sides. What happened in 1987 was that the Opposition of the day said it would support the Government even in the tough decisions.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I do not hear those sounds being made now. I know there has been talk of a national Government but we had something that got us out of problems back in 1987. That was when the Opposition stopped opposing for the sake of opposing and started to say it would support the Government if it was doing the right thing. There are many right things to be done and I am not just talking about the Opposition.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Quinn should be allowed to speak without interruption.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I am talking about the various factions. Senator Coffey has just referred to the infighting that is taking place in the country. Let us find a way to avoid that.
11:00 am
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I remind the Leader of what happened in Easter Island. It is an island in the Pacific that had a thriving civilisation but the people there did not realise what was happening and as they continued to behave in the way they had done for many years their civilisation ended because there was nothing to eat. There was no food and the island became deserted. All that remains there are the monuments, the statues that were left from those previous days. We are in danger of acting in that way in this country at present.
I was impressed by the words President Obama used last night and the sympathy he showed for those who are having a tough time. For example, when he talked about the student who is no longer able to go to college because his father is losing his job, he showed sympathy but he also showed courage and said we can get out of this. The Government's job is to remind us of the tough decisions we will have to take.
I am complying with the requirement not to refer to names, but in the article yesterday by the former Attorney General who is an active member of Fine Gael he indicated that because of the deterioration in the financial situation, what may have been the right thing to do only a month ago is no longer the right thing now. He focused in particular on the front-loading of the difficult decisions we have to make. We were planning to take tough decisions this year, tougher ones next year and even tougher decisions the following year. He believes that what we should have done was taken the heavy hit now. We were willing to take it and I think the country is willing to take it if we show the leadership, determination and the confidence in the future that we can get out of this.
Paschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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I support the points made by my colleagues on the actions that have been taken in regard to Anglo Irish Bank, in particular in recent days. It is worth emphasising, however, that in the eyes of the people who have been making the decisions about the future of the country, especially the financial markets, the game has moved on. They are now looking at completely different things in regard to this country. A small but growing number of commentators is now questioning the solvency of the country and our ability to fund it. I strongly believe that is the core issue on which the Oireachtas and the Government should now engage.
I wish to offer three small pieces of evidence to support that point. This morning it emerged that the financial markets believe that it is as risky to buy the Government debt of Brazil as it is of Ireland. They believe that buying the Government debt of many other countries, including Thailand, Malaysia, Israel, Greece, Chile, China and Slovakia is a safer bet than this country. Last week the German finance minister stated that the eurozone could not afford any small economy to be threatened. The question must be asked why he made that statement. Last week we saw evidence of huge capital outflows from the country. If we were looking at any other country we would be sounding warning bells about that. Perhaps because the implications are so grave there is almost a reluctance on our part to talk about this openly and engage upon it in the manner required.
I ask the Leader to make time available regularly in the House to do two things. First, we must speak loudly and clearly to those buying our bonds and debt that there is no risk to the solvency of our country this year and in coming years and, second, the steps that will be taken to ensure that does not happen must be outlined. Unfortunately, that is the only game in town. Risk is increasing and everybody who makes decisions outside Leinster House is talking about it. It is urgent that we do the same.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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Notwithstanding tonight's Private Members' motion, we need an ongoing debate about restoring confidence in the economy and the financial system. I agree with Senator Quinn that not only should cultural and political mindsets be changed in opposition, they need to change in government as well. The notion of the Opposition saying "No" to what the Government does is no longer an option.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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We will have an opportunity later to debate the easy, populist choices being made elsewhere.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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There are none. The Senator should get a grip.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Boyle, without interruption. The Senator should put a question on the Order of Business to the Leader.
Liam TwomeyDan Boyle (Green Party)
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Whoever is in government needs to acknowledge here and now that such is the situation we find ourselves in internationally that all choices will not be popular, palatable and comfortable. The option for other parties is to outline alternative choices that are unpopular, unpalatable, uncomfortable and that are not populist. When the Opposition parties deal with that, I will know that we are starting to get to grips with this situation.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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We have but the Government is not listening.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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When the Government responds to our suggestions, we will know it is serious.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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I welcome yesterday's initiative on the part of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement and the Garda fraud squad. Given our extremely poor record in tackling white collar crime, it is important there be a public investigation of matters of ongoing public concern and I wish the investigation well. Other actions are needed. Now that Anglo Irish Bank is owned by the State, gratuities payable to, and pension agreements with, the principals of the bank should be suspended until all investigations are finished.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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People involved in Anglo Irish bank at the time recent events unfolded who are on State boards and bodies should voluntarily step aside until all investigations are finished in order that a climate is created where confidence in this country can be restored. The investigation is ongoing but the Government and the political system need to send out proper signals and as of yet, we have not adopted enough of them.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I disagree with Senator Quinn, although I am not comfortable with that because he is a wise and sensible man. However, the contribution of my learned colleague on the Government benches causes my blood to boil because we are not getting leadership. The day of reckoning has come and if we had such leadership in our country, would it not be easy? Earlier, I listened to the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment on the radio on my way to the House. She said the difference in the VAT rate between the North and the South was only 0.5% and it applied only to white goods.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should put a question to the Leader.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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She said nothing about the price of food and cars and the number of people crossing the Border to buy them. She said she was sorry for people, which is laudable, but she referred to us "not talking down the economy". She then said there is a "framework", the great word that is spun all the time. She said Ireland is over regulated and that it is criticised for this.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We do not want a replay of the programme.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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Hold on a minute. If I am being asked to support the Government and to be part of a consensusââ
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should put a question to the Leader. Many Members listened to the radio programme earlier and we do not want a repeat of it.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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The most important issue is that we should be honest and level with one another in the House. The Opposition knows how bad circumstances are and that is why Fine Gael tabled the Private Members' motion. Will the Leader ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come to the House for a debate on the VAT and pricing differentials between the North and the South and the report of the National Consumer Agency? I will be delighted to support the Government when we get the leadership we deserve.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I share the welcome for the move by Mr. Paul Appleby, the Director of Corporate Enforcement, on Anglo Irish Bank with the Garda fraud squad.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Did the Government give him the list?
Kieran PhelanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden, without interruption. If Members continue to interrupt, I will suspend the House and I will continue to do so all day long.
David Norris (Independent)
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Not again, for God's sake. That is a confession of complete failure in the House if we have to suspend all the time. I am getting fed up.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased the House prompted action on Anglo Irish Bank because Members called for the deployment of the Garda fraud squad. Given the investigation is under way, names cannot be released because that could prejudice the case that will come before the courts. When the issue was discussed last week, Mr. Appleby and the fraud squad had not taken action in this regard. It appeared no action would be taken against the bank but it has happened and, hopefully, that will lead to criminal proceedings.
Senator Fitzgerald mentioned an article published today by Sam Smyth and it is interesting that a person who was seemingly involved has issued a statement saying he was misled in this regard. Let him put his case to the courts and defend his position.
I welcome the appointment of the new board of the RTE Authority and, in particular, the appointment of Tom Savage as chairman. This was an excellent choice by the Government and he will bring great leadership to RTE. I wish him well in his appointment.
David Norris (Independent)
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I have a good deal sympathy for the Cathaoirleach because he does his best but the situation here is highlighted by the fact that virtually every day he must call Members on the Order of Business who were not heard the previous day. Why does the Leader continually resist attempts to regulate the Order of Business in the interests of the House in order that we can have a full and proper discussion? Everybody knows he is standing up against this but many Government Members would support an expansion of the Order of Business. The Leader should get off the fence and he should not referââ
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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That is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. The Senator should put a question to the Leader.
David Norris (Independent)
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When will the Leader stop talking about the CPP? When did it last meet? My information is it last met in November 2008. Let us have action and leadership and not frustration.
Radio broadcasts of proceedings have stopped completely. It is not surprising the only business ever reported on television or in newspapers is the Order of Business. Today, The Irish Times columnist, Miriam Lord, had precisely three times the column inches of the column devoted to the collective wisdom of the Seanad. It is the Leader's responsibility with the other officers to make sure we get proper attention and we get a proper way to give our views.
I refer to the issue of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment's interview, which I also heard and which should be discussed. We need leadership. President Obama was splendid. He said America would have to face this day of reckoning and so on. Half the time what we got from the Tánaiste was not even English. She talked about the need for "strident government". We might need prudent government but we do not need strident government. She talked about "a percentile increase". I do not know what is a percentile increase. I never heard of it. I taught English for 30 years and I do not know what she was talking about.
I accept there is a little movement and the Director of Corporate Enforcement has sent in gardaÃ. They can recover some of the information from the hard drives of computers. One of the great things is all is not lost. The bankers can have shredded what they like but we can still get at information. However, I am worried that the banks are still at it.
David Norris (Independent)
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They are still flogging and advertising 1% below cost mortgages. What will occur when the amount increases? More people will be trapped. Yesterday, a friend received an unsolicited offer of a loan worth â¬9,000 from a bank. What is the bank at?
Last weekend, we discovered that the former Taoiseach, Garret FitzGerald, retired from a hedge fund. Hello? While he was doing that, another former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, was receiving â¬10,000 in Tegucigalpa for discussing the Celtic tiger.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Questions to the Leader on the Order of Business.
David Norris (Independent)
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Have we any sense of what is occurring? Not for one minute is it acceptable to respond to calls for national cohesion by saying that, in Alan Dukes's time, it was a minority Government.
David Norris (Independent)
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No, that is wrong. What difference does it make whether something was a minority Government?
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please, Senator. Questions to the Leader.
David Norris (Independent)
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We are in a crisis and the Government, whatever it is, should be supported if it is doing the right thing.
David Norris (Independent)
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May we revert to the backbench subject of embryo stem cell research? Youth Defence is on the trot again. As if it was not bad enough, it is putting out dangerous, dishonest and misleading advertisements to the effect that 73 cures have been developed using adult stem cells while none has been developed using embryo stem cells. Some people have spent tens of thousands of euro. An unfortunate woman from Scotland who came to Ireland was injected with umbilical cord stem cells, but they made no difference. How dare these blackguards mislead people and abuse science? Let us have a real debate in the House.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It is difficult to follow an expert and eminent scientist, a professor of the English language and someone who rants at length on various issues, which does nothing for the House's status or politics in general.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The greatest criticism that I received from the public during the weekend concerned what purported to be democracy in the Dáil last week.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We are not dealing with the Dáil. On the Order of Business.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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We should follow the lead of the voice in this House that is most measured, reasonable and probably knowledgeable, namely, that of Senator Quinn. He may be the only person who takes that approach. We must consider the situation calmly and constructively determine what should be done. Will the Leader arrange a debate on Ireland's fiscal position? I agree with the comments made by Mr. Peter Sutherland, a man of great expertise and who is well renowned in this field. Many people inside and outside the public service have stated they are prepared to play their part.
Concerning the Tánaiste's statement this morning, I disagree with those who have criticised her. She came across well and was reasonable and logical.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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She spoke about the necessity for a cohesive approach. Mr. Sutherland recognises the fact that, if none of our expenditure of â¬55 billion, comprising â¬20 billion on pay, â¬20 billion on social welfare and â¬15 billion on non-pay costs, can be cut despite our revenue falling short by â¬18 billion or â¬20 billion, we are on the road to ruin. Anyone with any sort of mathematical sense would recognise this fact.
During the debate, would it be possible to fill the Visitors Gallery with those who have recently been made unemployed? It might bring a modicum of common sense and measurement to Senators who are inclined to use partisan language in the Houseââ
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Government Senators would be lynched.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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ââand lead them to recognise that there is a constituency depending on those of us in politics to find a way through the current difficulties.
Will the Leader arrange for a separate debate on the ten-point plan proposed by congress? It includes excellent ideas and others with which I would not agree, but it should be properly debated.
When the Leader arranges the debates, would it be possible to organise them in a way that is not essentially stage managed? Currently, people stand up to speak for ten or 15 minutes and much of their comments are irrelevant. Could it not be done like the way in which discussions are held in committees? Were we asked to defend and put logic behind some of our more outlandish statements, it would lead to a more constructive interaction, which is necessary in both Houses, not just the Seanad.