Seanad debates
Wednesday, 3 December 2008
Order of Business
10:30 am
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2008 — Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business; and No. 31, motion 31, re shoppers' task force, to be taken at 5 p.m. and to conclude not later than 7 p.m. The business of the House will be interrupted between 1.30 and 2.30 p.m.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Last night the Minister approved the establishment of a new board, with a very long title. It is called the Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes. The Government has announced yet another board when we are talking about cutting back on boards. The board comprises a very eminent group of people and is being referred to as "an bord snip nua". Why do we need a group such as this when we have a Cabinet? What is the job of Cabinet? I am amazed by the job this board, chaired by Mr. Colm McCarthy, has been given. According to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, it has been asked to advise the Department so that savings can be made as soon as possible.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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What is the role of the Department of Finance and the Cabinet? Why do we not have a group of Ministers making these decisions which will impact so strongly on citizens? We are talking about cutbacks to deal with the Exchequer returns, which we yesterday saw are €3 billion behind target. Why do we not have a group of Ministers coming to this House to tell us the plan? Where is the macro plan to deal with the economy and the shortfall?
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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We had a budget in this House just a few weeks ago. Is the budget not the place to answer the question this group has been asked to answer, namely, where savings can be made as soon as possible. On Friday a public sector reform document was lodged with great fanfare. It took several months, much consultation and 12 members. I am amazed we are outsourcing to a group, however eminent, this task which is a Cabinet job. It is the most serious indictment of Cabinet. We need another group of independent people to tell the Government how to manage the economy. However eminent the group, what is the Cabinet and Government's job? Where is the leadership? Announcing yet another board when there is a cutback on agencies is extraordinary. Perhaps the Leader can put that to the Minister, who will address this House on Friday. We look forward to hearing about his macro plan.
Today's editorial in The Irish Times states former donors to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul have now become recipients of financial aid from the charitable organisation. This is the public face of these cutbacks. Huge numbers of people are going to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, which has not seen such numbers for a generation. We need decisions and a plan from the Government and I hope we will hear them on Friday. I was not very reassured by the interview the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, gave on RTE this morning. It seems he has played his hand and there is no new plan to deal with the worsening economic situation.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I would be very pleased if the Government bore in mind Senator Fitzgerald's points. I would be much relieved if Mr. Donal McNally, Mr. Maurice O'Connell and Mr. Colm McCarthy were not allowed to get their hands on the public service. After years of arguing with them, I have no doubt they will do the Government's job and I wish they would not. I will oppose the Order of Business today because the Leader has, once again, backed off on having a debate on education and has not given a commitment on when he will do it. I am not sure of what the Government is afraid. It is under serious pressure but should face the music, grasp the nettle and have that debate.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is worthwhile recognising that on many occasions in the past four years the Kerry Senators on this side of the House, Senator Coghlan and I, raised and pushed the issue of Valentia and Malin coastguards and the rescue service. I had support from the Leader on it.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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Members from Donegal were also involved.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The Leader brought this to the attention of the Minister on our behalf and it is much appreciated. It is worth recognising the Government has done well in reversing this appalling decision. It means much to the people in that area and it would be churlish of us not to recognise the good work in recent times from the new Kerry Senator on the other side of the House.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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What about the Donegal Senator and Deputy who fought it for a long time?
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Senator Daly took a great interest in it and should be credited with some involvement and interest in this. That is something done.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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After that little bit of fun, táim ag caint anseo leis na blianta faoin sórt polasaithe atá ag an Stát i leith na Gaeilge. Appalling decisions have been taken in recent times. Go dtí seo, bhí deontas tuairim agus €1.5 milliún in aghaidh na bliana do na coláistí samhraidh atá bunaithe sna Gaeltachtaí. Tá na coláistí sin thar a bheith tábhachtach. The Government says go bhfuil sé ag méadú an airgid atá á chur aige chun tacaíochta a thabhairt don Ghaelainn. While it says it supports that, ar an dtaobh eile den scéal, tá se ag baint €1.5 milliún ó gheilleagar na nGaeltachtaí, ag cur brú ar fhostaíocht sna Gaeltachtaí, ag cur brú ar thuismitheoirí atá ag cur leanaí go dtí na nGaeltachtaí ionas go mbeidh orthu costais breise a chur ar fáil. Is fuath liom an cinneadh seo atá déanta ag an Rialtas. Ní creidim é, ach táim ag rá le fiche bliain — aon uair a bhíonn seans ag an Rialtas rud éigin a chur go dtí an Galltacht seachas an Ghaeltacht, sin a dhéanann sé. This was the time to retain the funding, nuair a bhí rudaí ar siúl sna Gaeltachtaí. It had the added advantage not just of children going to the Gaeltacht and experiencing the value of that, it also created an input into the economy of the Gaeltacht areas where there is no employment. It also allowed the Irish languge to gain from that. What does the Government do? Baineann sé €1.5 milliún uathu with extraordinary negative impact on that area of the country. I know Governments do not care much about the far western coast of Ireland. There are not many votes there.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Who cares about them? Bury them one more time. In the middle of this, the Minister announces go bhfuil méadú in the general Vote don Ghaeilge. Here is the question to the Leader. Ag an am chéanna, tá an Rialtas ag tabhairt €3 mhilliún breise do Chomhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann. Cén fáth go bhfuil €3 mhilliún ag dul dos na ceoltóirí agus go bhfuil sé á bhaint ón teanga?
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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Would Senator O'Toole take it from them?
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I have no problem about money being given to Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann. It does a fabulous job.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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By putting the two in the same sentence the Senator is giving it a problem.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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What is the connection between Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann and the Irish language? They are two separate issues. It is another blow to the Irish language.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Is seans eile é atá tógtha ag an Rialtas chun an Ghaelainn a chur faoi chois. N'fheadar cad atá ar siúl ag an Aire Gnóthaí Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta go bhfuil sé sásta an sórt ruda seo a chur chun cinn. It is disgraceful. Ba mhaith liom go dtiocfadh an tAire isteach chun sin a mhíniú dúinn agus seo a phlé.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator thinks Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann should not have got the €3 million. It is wrong to link them.
David Norris (Independent)
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Comhghairdeas, tá an ceart agat, cinnte.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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This morning in Oslo Ireland signed the convention banning cluster bombs. I welcome that and congratulate the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Peter Power and Deputies and Senators from all sides of the House on their dedication and commitment to ensuring this has, finally, taken place.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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I join with other Senators in their concern over the deteriorating Irish economy. I heard the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, on the radio this morning and, like other Senators, I was not greatly impressed. He has ruled out further taxes and seems to have ruled out a stimulus package. He said he will have to examine spending cuts. The Leader has kindly arranged for the Minister to be in this House on Friday. I ask that when he comes here he makes a clear statement that those least well able to bear the brunt of any cuts are protected when these additional cuts are put forward.
In the lead up to Christmas many shoppers will purchase gift vouchers for their friends and families. Some people may not be aware that these have a finite life in many cases. It is up to the individual store as to whether they will ask for five years, one year or less. Countries such as the United States have enacted legislation to put a minimum timescale on the validity of these gift vouchers. I ask the Leader to make some noise on this issue to ensure customers are aware that when they go into a shop they should ask for how long these gift vouchers will be valid and if they do not get the answer they like, they can go to another shop, preferably in the South.
I raise an issue of which Members may not be aware but which is of great importance to the people of Louth and Meath, that is, planning and zoning for thousands of additional houses in the south Drogheda area. Questions are being asked locally and nationally about the process being followed in this regard. This morning on Michael Reade's show on LMFM, the local radio station, the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, stated that a very unorthodox planning process is taking place that has ended up in a major controversy that requires someone's examination. Is the former Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government at odds with the current Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on this issue? Is an examination needed and is one forthcoming? Can the Leader arrange for the current Minister to make a statement on this matter?
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the people of Valentia in Kerry for their work and assistance to me in helping to retain the coastguard services in Valentia and Malin Head. I thank the Leader who afforded so much time to the issue. I thank also my Seanad colleagues on the Government side of the House, as well as Senator Paul Coghlan and that wily old fox, Senator Joe O'Toole, who has been raising this issue for many years. It was a victory for common sense and good governance. The retention of the coastguard service in both Malin and Valentia will mean ultimately that lives will be saved at sea because experience such as that is hard fought and dearly won. I thank the Members of the House for their support on this issue.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Along with Senator Joe O'Toole and Senator Mark Daly, I, too, welcome the Government's U-turn in regard to Valentia and Malin Head because——
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader knows I never mean to be political. It was the only realistic and sensible decision that could have been reached because we all had recognised that Valentia and Malin Head had functioned successfully and both had such a wonderful history of service to their areas, the seafarers and everyone else. They had the people with the expertise. I could never understand, and I expressed this view to the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, on a few occasions, the reason the Government ever contemplated closing both those stations for all the reasons Senator O'Toole and Senator Daly have outlined. It never made sense to centralise those services. I welcome the technology upgrade the Minister has announced for both those stations.
I recognise the efforts in the previous Parliament and this Parliament of Senator O'Toole, Senator Keaveney, the Donegal Deputies, the Kerry Deputies, the Ceann Comhairle, Deputy Healy-Rae, my own colleague, Deputy Tom Sheahan——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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You are not on a canvassing campaign, are you?
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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You are mentioning a lot of people with votes.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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A Chathaoirligh, like your good self, I am just taking a leaf out of your book because you were always fair——
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I recognise your independence. You were always fair and balanced, and that is all I am trying to be as well.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader would appreciate that too. On another issue, I strongly support the remarks of Senator Fitzgerald. There is a sufficient number of eminent people — well-trained and well-versed civil servants — in every Department to ensure the necessary cutbacks are made. That is not to disrespect all the eminent people mentioned who will be on the new board known as "an bord snip nua". We do not need it and if we need another budget, that is a matter for the Minister. I would like to hear from the Leader on that issue. We do not need this board. We have had a plethora of boards and most of their reports are gathering dust on shelves in Departments. We have the people to implement a Government policy and we should get on with it.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with all the sentiments expressed about the retention of coastguard services at Malin Head and Valentia. It is a victory for the people who were finally able to present the facts and prove that the knowledge does not always stem from the one location. It is disappointing that this issue had to be dealt with at all because we believed the earlier reports were adequate. The most recent report turned out to be factually incorrect. I welcome that people got a chance to correct the record and that the Minister took the right action on this occasion for the people of Valentia and Malin Head.
I thank the Leader for facilitating the conversation in this House. The meetings of the joint committee were very important. I thank the Minister and his officials for meeting me and many other public representatives on the issue. We knew we had a strong case but it was a matter of being facilitated in that respect.
On what is one of the 16 days of international recognition of the problem of domestic violence, I ask the Leader for a discussion on that issue because the cost of domestic violence to the Irish economy, and we are talking about the many costs to the economy, is estimated to be €2.2 billion a year. On one of the 16 days of awareness of the problem, from 25 November to 10 December, an issue that is such a major cost to the economy is worthy of debate to determine if we can reduce that figure.
Recent reports in England dealt with children being abused in homes and the need for the advocacy of foster care. We talk about domestic violence as it pertains to either the male or female, although the problem generally affects females, but we must also consider the children of those families.
The Leader might ask the Minister for Education and Science to talk to his counterpart, the Minister for Employment and Learning, Sir Reg Empey, about the fact that Northern colleges are considering increasing university fees. That will have major implications for students from Border areas attending colleges in the North and trying to make ends meet. It is against the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement that rather than having ease of transfer across frontiers to facilitate students getting educated, it is becoming more difficult.
I disagree with Senator O'Toole. He raised the important issue of the withdrawal of funding for the Irish colleges but whether he meant it or not, it came across that he was undermining the money given to Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The Senator should read the Official Report.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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By linking the two issues of Comhaltas getting——
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The Senator should read the Official Report.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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It came across that as a result of Comhaltas getting——
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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That is the way the Senator interpreted it. It did not come across that way.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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I have battled for many years to get money for the arts but, unfortunately, every time money for the arts is allocated, it is always linked to some other issue. The Senator's issue is valid in its own right and I——
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I was talking about it being a direct transfer from Gaeltachtaí.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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We must have a serious attitude in the way we approach funding for the arts. Musicians do not appear out of the sky. They need to be encouraged and funded.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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Every time we get a small amount of money for the arts, someone takes it away. The issues are separate and should remain separate.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The arts are wider than Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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As an artist and musician, I am disappointed that it has again borne the brunt of doublespeak.
11:00 am
Shane Ross (Independent)
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I support the comments of Senator Coghlan and Senator Fitzgerald about "an bord snip nua". The mind boggles. Why on earth do we need four people who, I suspect, are not quite as eminent as everyone describes them, to recommend to the Government where the cuts should be made? Senator Fitzgerald put her finger on the button. This economy is in crisis and if the Government refers the crisis to a committee, the crisis will not be resolved. It is a committee of four people. I would like to know how and why they were chosen. They are all public servants. I cannot understand the point of putting four people who are all on the public payroll on a board to decide on an issue such as this. It seems a very strange choice.
We are in a crisis. I heard the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, speak on the radio this morning, and various other people, and it appears Senator O'Toole was right yesterday when he said there is no plan. These guys do not know what is going on and the problem is not the crisis we are in but that the Government has no plan at all to deal with it, which is serious. It is not our job to support Government policy but I have for years supported its policy on the economy and I am completely and utterly disillusioned with the fact that the Government parties can run an economy when it is going well but when it comes to a crisis, they are like a bunch of amateurs. Nothing has come from them to indicate they have a plan or they are in control.
The other issue regarding "an bord snip nua" is it will not make recommendations for approximately a year. The Leader can correct me if I am wrong. The economy is moving downhill so quickly that the recommendations the board makes in a year will need to have been implemented this year and they will be out of date by then. When the Minister for Finance comes to the House on Friday, he needs to outline where he will make the cuts. I suspect the Government parties may have more sympathy from the Opposition than normally would be the case in the political atmosphere in which battles are fought in the House because everyone is aware of the need for cuts. However, if they put the recommendations off for a year or 18 months, they will then be debated but we will be two and a half or three years into the electoral cycle and there is no way the Government will make cuts in public services or expenditure with a year or 18 months to go to a general election. The Government has funked the issue of cuts in public expenditure by giving the job to this body, which is, by definition, antagonistic to such cuts because of where its members come from.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator Hannigan regarding the vouchers issue. A clear legislative timeline should be laid down for the period during which they can be encashed. The vouchers should also clearly state in large print the deadline for encashment because many people get caught out after Christmas when they find out they are out of date.
I disagree with Opposition comments regarding the task force. Its job is not to tell us what should happen regarding salary and wage reductions in the public service, which are inevitable and which should be taken immediately. Significant numbers of job reductions are needed in the public service and that decision must be taken at a political level. I compliment the Leader on scheduling Friday's debate and I hope it will afford us the opportunity to go into the detail of all this. However, I urge the Leader to ensure a minimum of 12 minutes per contribution is provided for. Members can share if they want. We do not want to end up with a load of soundbites on the issue, which tends to happen during critical debates in the House. Between €5 billion and €8 billion in savings needs to be identified urgently.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The task force has a role to play in saving on wasteful expenditure that does not achieve anything or provide front-line services.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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What has Fianna Fáil been doing for the past ten years?
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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A task force that is well focused on wasteful expenditure could ensure that happens through management. Where management fails, it must be held accountable for its failure in this regard.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Aontaím go daingean leis an Seanadóir Ó Tuathail faoin gcinneadh uafásach de bharr na ndeontais le haghaidh na coláistí samhraidh. I agree completely with Senator O'Toole who decried the total idiocy involved in cutting the grants for Irish summer colleges. This is the one way we are managing to keep our language alive for children in the Galltacht. Even where children hate the language in school, they love attending summer college or coláistí samhraidh. I experienced this year when my own child and others from my area stayed in the Connemara Gaeltacht. Not only will the economy of the Gaealtachtaí reduce, above all, we will further the decline of the Irish language. Will the Leader invite the Minister for Education and Science to the House to discuss this and other issues? He is badly needed in the House because he has refused to hear us.
I second Senator O'Toole's amendment to the Order of Business.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator did not propose an amendment.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I opposed the Order of Business but there is no point in amending it.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for the clarification. I am concerned that Ireland is an uncompetitive country where a job is lost every three minutes and consumers are voting with their feet and travelling to Northern Ireland to do their shopping. Tax returns have reduced considerably and I seek two open debates in this regard. It is time to debate the social partnership model because I am not convinced what worked in 1988 is working in 2008. These are different times and that means different responses are needed. I support Senators Fitzgerald, Ross and Coghlan.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We have an all-day debate on the economy on Friday and it should not be debated on the Order of Business.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Government is relying on an old plan to solve today's problems and that is unwise. The debate on the economy should also examine the social partnership model. I would like its advantages and disadvantages outlined in an open debate.
We should also debate with an open mind the advantages and disadvantages of the Aer Lingus-Ryanair proposal. A year ago, Aer Lingus was allowed by the Government to reject it. I am not totally on the side of Ryanair but the company has maintained competitiveness and it retains jobs in Ireland. Let us examine the proposal.
Will the Leader invite the Minister for Transport to the House to discuss the major infrastructural road projects he is suspending indefinitely? Yesterday An Bord Pleanála published its decision on the outer city bypass for Galway city. A total of 12 km was approved but 9 km was suspended. The decision is baffling and will hamper the economic development of the west side of the city and south Connemara. The problem is twofold in the context of the planning decision and——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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That was a decision of An Bord Pleanála, which is independent of the Minister.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader invite the Minister for Transport to the House to discuss the major infrastructural projects in Transport 21 he plans to suspend and to outline when they will be restored?
Alan Kelly (Labour)
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I will not prejudge the debate on the economy on Friday but the turnaround in Exchequer figures over the past year amounts to €9.5 billion and updated live register figures will be announced later. We have rightly engaged in a great deal of discussion about the reform needed in the public service but the debate on Friday should concentrate on how to stimulate job creation. The Government has not put forward a single fresh idea in this regard. I was not enthused by the comments of the Minister for Finance earlier because he did not advocate a stimulus package. The Labour Party has published proposals relating to energy development, a schools building programme to help the construction industry, the education sector and information technology. I would like the Minister to outline areas in which the economy can be expanded in order that we can fight our way of the recession.
A report was recently published relating to broadband. A number of Senators including myself raised this issue and the fact the Government strategies in this area have been abysmal and continue to be so. This report adds to that worry. Not alone is our broadband penetration awful, the speeds available, given the contention levels, are very low at only 60% of what has been advertised. The situation in rural Ireland is worse, although it has not even been studied.
This is probably the greatest infrastructural issue with regard to the redevelopment of our economy. The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has failed totally in this area, which must be addressed if we are to develop IT and high-tech business of high value.
The House has heard of the recent "Prime Time" special featuring examples in various sectors of underpayment of workers and long hours being worked. Would it not be refreshing if the chief executives of, for example, the Construction Industry Federation or the Irish Hotels Federation, two sectors which have been focused on, would come out and make statements condemning such actions——
Alan Kelly (Labour)
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——and work with the rest of us to ensure these practices are discontinued, that the exploitation of workers is stopped and that they will do all in their power, as they try to do in other areas of their industries, to ensure these practices are not tolerated?
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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The tax receipts for November show a €3 billion shortfall compared to that estimated in the budget. What it shows is that not only is the budget of 2008 out of date but also the budget for 2009. The response of the Minister and the Government has been to wait for the December Exchequer returns and to establish "an bord snip nua", the cost-cutting committee. The point has been made by Senators Ross, Fitzgerald and others but the reality is that this is an admission of failure. It is an outsourcing of decision making by the Government.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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It is a cop out. There are at least 100 people involved in different Departments in preparing the Estimates for 2009 and the 2010 budget. It will take all of next year for these part-time experts to advise the Government on what decisions it should be taking. The fact is we need instant, decisive action and the response is entirely inadequate.
What this highlights is that the 2009 budget was rushed. The Government should have waited for the November returns because at least 20% of Irish tax is collected in that month. It should not have rushed into a national agreement that will cost an extra €2 billion. The lack of precision in assessing the finances and the Estimates is affecting the cost of borrowing for this country. This is highlighted by Mr. Colm McCarthy, the chairman of the new board that will examine cost-cutting measures, when he shows that the cost of borrowing in short-term bonds for the Government is 1.2 percentage points above that of Germany. The Government's actions are jeopardising our ability to borrow the funds required to balance the books and to provide a basis for going forward. I look forward to the debate on this matter on Friday.
On another issue, the Taoiseach stated he will brief EU leaders on the Lisbon plan. That is all well and good but would it not be more appropriate that the Taoiseach or his Ministers would first brief this House and the Lower House on his plan for Lisbon? This is an important national decision. To make that decision without a consensus in these Houses with regard to Brussels shows a disrespect for the Oireachtas.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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The reality is that this is an important national decision which will involve all political parties and many other interests and sectoral groups. To make these decisions without debate or consultation in these Houses is entirely inappropriate.
There is one consideration I would put to the Leader and ask that he put it to the Taoiseach. One of the unique selling points of the Lisbon treaty was the measures it introduced in regard to combatting cross-border crime and the most serious forms of crime in Europe, as was confirmed by Dr. Maurice Hayes, chairman of the Forum on Europe, in the Joint Committee on the Constitution yesterday. If the Taoiseach is intent on running a new referendum, Ireland should not exercise and include the opt-out in the area of justice and home affairs. When one sees the drugs seizures on our coastline and the inability of our own resources to control that coastline, it shows we need Europe's help in combatting organised gangland crime, drug trafficking and so on. I put that question to the Leader. Perhaps he would refer the matter.
David Norris (Independent)
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Many Members have spoken about the very difficult economic situation in which we find ourselves. It would be useful for the House to take up a couple of examples of this. I have from time to time indicated some of these, particularly in the context of the abolition of the Combat Poverty Agency and various other agencies, but I will not go on about this again. However, I wish to deal with two examples on which I ask the Leader to consider having a debate.
The first example is that of taxis. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am now reliant on taxis when I am not able to walk because of the weather and so on. I make it a practice never to take a taxi off the rank for a short journey. I wait some way away from the rank and hail a taxi because I consider it very unfair when people wait a long time and I simply would not do it.
I often get taxis from O'Connell Street to Leinster House. Two days ago, on a beautiful morning like this with perfectly fine weather and the sun shining, one of the taxi men called me and asked me if I knew the Westin Hotel on Westmoreland Street. I told him I did and that I could practically see the hotel from where I stood. He told me that the hotel was where his passenger, a young, fit woman, had asked him to take her — from the Gresham Hotel to the Westin Hotel on perfectly good day.
I told this story to the taxi driver I used this morning to do some other messages. He told me about the place known as the Kesh where the taxis are held at Dublin Airport before being moved up to the airport in small groups. This man had been waiting two hours before he was moved up. A young executive woman with her laptop came out from the arrivals area and asked him to take her to Cloghran House, which is the headquarters of the Dublin Airport Authority. It is visible from where she was standing and is about as far as from here to the Merrion Street gate of Leinster House. He asked her whether she knew where it was and she replied: "I know exactly where it is. Take me." He agreed because he is required to. The fare indicator did not move. The minimum fare is €4.10 and that is what he got. She proffered a €5 note and held out her hand for the 90 cent change.
I appeal to the public to have some consideration at this time. The driver of another taxi I took yesterday, a very decent young man, has not paid his mortgage in three and half months and is in fear of what is happening to his family, including three small children.
The industry is not properly regulated so there is a flood of taxis. It is good that we are able to get taxis so easily but some of the incoming population, for example, are exempt from the requirement to know where the routes are — they simply do not know. This is the sort of issue that should be brought to the attention of the Minister and I ask the Leader to do that in advance of this debate. Last week, I got a taxi outside Leinster House and asked to be taken to North Great George's Street. I told the driver it was North Great George's Street, not South Great George's Street, and asked whether he knew where it is. With a puzzled expression he told me it was near Wexford Street. I told him it was not and that it was on the other side of the river. He asked me: "What river?" The whole system needs to be examined.
David Norris (Independent)
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I wish to raise another matter concerning the decent sheep farmers outside Agriculture House. The Minister owes them a statement with regard to the situation pertaining to CAP and single farm payment funds he has received, which amount to approximately €23 million. There has been no indication he will help out the sheep farmers who are in a very difficult situation. He has perfect capacity to immediately make an announcement of €20 maintenance per ewe, and I ask him to do this.
We have seen the beet industry disappear completely. Beef is in trouble because of imports from Brazil. Cappoquin Chickens went down the drain. I do not know whether it has been resuscitated somehow. All areas of farm production seem to be vulnerable in this awful climate which is cataclysmic. People talk about meltdown, they say that it is unprecedented and that they do not know how to face it. The least we should do is secure good agricultural produce and the livelihoods of people who work in that area.
David Norris (Independent)
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My grandfather was a farmer, but he would not allow my uncle to take up the farming business because, he said, it was so cruel. It is as cruel now as it was during the days of the economic war and we owe it to those decent young farmers to do something for them.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge the decision by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and his colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, to ensure that the Valentia and Malin Head marine rescue co-ordination centres will remain and the provision of funding of €2.5 million to upgrade the radio systems in both stations together with the upgrade work to be done in Dublin. I very much welcome that and I know my colleague, Senator Keaveney, who comes from Inishowen, also welcomes it. The decision was made following representations by the communities in Kerry and Donegal. The Minister and the Minister of State listened to the people and we should applaud them for doing so and for reversing a decision which was ultimately moved forward by officials in the Department.
Later today we will debate consumer spending. There are 22 days to Christmas and many shoppers from the Republic are travelling North of the Border. I want to refer to a specific issue that was brought to my attention over the weekend by a number of consumers. I will give the example to the House as an indication of what is occurring at present with regard to the double charging policies of multiples based in the UK. A young lady from my constituency went to the North seeking a particular garment. It was priced at £25, and the equivalent in euro. She was told the garment was not available in the store in the North but that if she went to the store in the Republic, located in Donegal, the garment was available there. She did so and the price tag on the garment was also £25, and the equivalent in euro, just as it was in Derry city. However, when she went to pay for it she was informed that if she wanted to pay in sterling she would have to pay the sterling difference and, therefore, she was charged £33. That is a disgrace.
If supermarkets and chain stores are getting away with this in our jurisdiction, shame on them. We must target those people and take them on. This occurs in the Border counties and it is causing major difficulties to our economy because people are choosing to spend their money in the North. We must debate this issue and I hope it is raised this evening and on Friday. Given that there are only 22 days to Christmas, we must consider what we can do this week to allow consumers to spend their money in the Republic rather than in the North.
David Norris (Independent)
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What about the Thirty-two County Republic Senator Ó Domhnaill's party was so keen on?
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris has acknowledged something.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We must move on. Senator Ó Domhnaill has made his point.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps this issue should have been dealt with as part of the peace process.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe it was a lost opportunity.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Mar aon leis an Seanadóir Ó Tuathail, táim ag iarraidh díospóireachta ar an deontas do na coláistí samhraidh, mar tá an Rialtas ag baint €1.5 milliún ón nGaeltacht. Cad atá á rá le seo faoin ár dteanga dúchais, na coláistí samhraidh agus na mná tí? Is í an cheist ná: Cén fáth go bhfuil laghdú ag teacht ar an deontas? We are talking about increasing our support for the Irish language while at the same time the Government has decreased funding for Irish colleges and, more important, for the Gaeltacht region, a region atá faoi bhrú because of Government economic policy on rural development. I call for an urgent debate on the Irish language and on this grant.
I call on the Leader to invite the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the House. This morning, figures for the live register were published. It is at its highest level since April 1998, with an increase of 1.5%. More important and significantly, 260,000 people were unemployed in October and 277,200 people are now unemployed as a consequence of a Government that has no leadership, no bottle, no vision and certainly no patriotism. Where is the Government's plan to manage the economy? Where is the vision? There is none. It makes it up as it goes along. The budget is like a rolling maul. It is going from bad to worse. The Government is going from the 22 yard line to behind its own goal and is losing the game. Irish people are suffering, and the Leader and his party have not realised that.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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I add my voice to those in all sectors of the economy, whether education, agriculture or business, who are concerned that we are suffering. I agree with the sentiments expressed by Senator Ross who is concerned about the appointments to "An Bord Snip". I ask the basic question, what is the Government elected to do and why is it not doing it. Why should it appoint people from the private sector or otherwise to examine ways to save money for this economy? I am sure there is a hoard of people within the Civil Service who could do this job. Why have they not been doing so during the past 11 years when the Government was in power? Is the Government incapable of doing this or is it a PR exercise?
At present, the Government seems clueless. As Senator Buttimer stated, it has no vision and no plan has been thought out to bring this country through the recession. Time is dripping away and our economy is suffering and in crisis. There is a daily convoy to Newry, Banbridge and Belfast, which is sucking and draining the lifeblood of our economy. I compliment the Labour Senators on tabling the motion we will debate this evening. They identify this problem and that a transfusion is needed back into our economy so we can reinflate the Christmas trade for small businesses and retailers. Retailers are examining their balance sheets and bank balances and are considering closing their doors in January. We need to act quickly.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We will have this debate this evening.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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There is a further shortfall of €2 billion in our public finances, according to the proposed Exchequer figures. We introduced a rushed budget and that is acknowledged throughout the economy. Why did we not wait until November when we could see the figures coming in? The Government is clueless and directionless. We need leadership. The Taoiseach should be invited to this Chamber, because he has not been here yet, to discuss this matter. This Chamber needs that respect and dignity to discuss the economy, which is going down the tubes.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I will respond briefly to some of the important issues raised by Senators. Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Hannigan, Ross, Walsh, Healy Eames, Kelly, Regan, Norris and Coffey gave the House the benefit of their views on the economic challenges facing us. As we were told yesterday by the Minister, the figures reveal a massive shortfall of close to €7.5 billion in the amount of tax revenue collected by the Government during the first 11 months of this year. This is far worse than any of us ever expected since the budget in October. In their analysis of the situation, economic experts tell us there will be a shortfall in excess of €8 billion for the year. Taking all this into account, everyone with the expertise and the track record of the four people appointed to the board to think outside the box and advise the Department of Finance and the Government is to be welcomed. They can do it in the United States and get the experts to assist the economic advisers to the Government and the President elect, Mr. Barack Obama. We are all looking forward to him taking office.
On behalf of the House, I congratulate our colleague and friend of this country for many years, Senator Hillary Clinton, on her appointment as Secretary of State. We are all uplifted by this selection and look forward to returning to those days when we enjoyed such good relations with the United States under the Presidency of Mr. Bill Clinton. Nobody has done more for this country than Mr. Clinton when he was President. Senator Kelly spoke about the information technology sector and where jobs are likely to be in the future. We must extend a hand of friendship to those who have looked after us in the past, who were consistent in their support for the North of Ireland and in seeking to resolve the Irish question as we have known it for 800 years.
Many Senators have made comments on the economy. The economic situation is not changing by the month or week; it is changing by the day. We are faced with an unprecedented crisis on a global scale. I ask colleagues to think carefully before making comments which may be taken up by irresponsible sections of the media. I have absolutely no issue with responsible elements of the media. However, there are young reporters who may assume that some Members of this House are experts in the field in which they are deliberating. That may not be the case.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Those of us who were Oireachtas Members in the 1980s can recall when times were truly bad.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader should be allowed to continue without interruption.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I will give the House the benefit of my experience by saying the key is to look after the small and medium enterprises which employ some 880,000 people.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is the problem, the Government is not looking after them.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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The Government is putting them out of business.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senators should allow the Leader to speak without interruption.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Finance gave the banks ten days to come up with proposals. The Government will work to ensure the banks play their part in providing funds for small and medium enterprises and others providing employment.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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We will be waiting a long time for the Government to play its part.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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These businesses are the backbone of the economy. The Government will provide them with the necessary support to ensure we can have hope and confidence in the future.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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There is no evidence of that thus far.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I was uplifted by the address to the nation by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, on "Morning Ireland".
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I was very impressed by his determination. The experience I have gained through the years tells me he is a person who is determined to listen to all sides and to take advice.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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The time for listening has passed, it is now time for action.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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If the Leader is not allowed to continue without interruption, I will be obliged to adjourn the House.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I know Senator Coffey is overjoyed by De La Salle's victory last Sunday in the Munster senior hurling club championship.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We are dealing with the Order of Business, not the Munster club championship.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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However, it is only a matter of time before Ballyhale Shamrocks or Portumna get at them.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Leader is trying to divert attention from the Government's failure to manage the economy.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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There will be an all-day debate on the economy on Friday. I have no difficulty in allowing sufficient time for all Members to make a contribution. It will be an open-ended debate and the Minister will be in the Chamber for most of the day. I urge all Members to make a contribution to this important debate. The least we can do, having seen the significant changes that have taken place, is to come into the House and assist the Government, the Minister and his departmental officials in putting forward proposals.
Senators O'Toole, Daly, Keaveney, Coghlan and Ó Domhnaill welcomed the decision of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and the Minister of State at that Department, Deputy Noel Ahern, to secure the Valentia and Malin marine rescue centres, as well as the centre in Dublin, and to allocate €2.5 million for necessary refurbishments to those facilities. Given the vast quantities of drugs being intercepted along our coastline, or floating in the water close to our shores, this is one of the best decisions to be made for some time. I congratulate all Senators who raised this issue with me in recent months. It is good to see the youngest Member of the House, Senator Daly, taking the lead on this issue for the benefit of his constituents. He did not pronounce on this issue in a boastful manner——
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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——but thanked the Government on behalf of the people of Valentia.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I know Senator O'Toole is also good for the humble pie.
David Norris (Independent)
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He will pass the recipe on to the Leader.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senators must allow the Leader to respond without interruption.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators O'Toole, Keaveney, Healy Eames and Buttimer called for a debate on education. I have agreed to set aside time for this before Christmas, on a Saturday if necessary.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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It is a serious matter. I listened with great interest to the Minister's comments on "Questions and Answers" last Monday. We all heard the other side of the story. The Government has allocated an additional 3% to the education budget. As I said yesterday, we know what our opponents on the other side of the House intend to do in this area.
There is no greater supporter of the Irish language than the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Let us see evidence of that support.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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He is taking money out of Gaeltacht areas.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senators to allow the Leader to continue.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I do not have to tell colleagues on the other side of the House that the Irish language is in the Minister's genes. He was born with a love of Irish. His grandfather, Eamon de Valera was the greatest public representative and friend the Irish language ever had. I have every confidence in the Minister.
I congratulate Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann on its allocation of €3 million.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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What about the €1.5 million that was taken from Gaeltacht areas?
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Innovators and creators in the arts are often unappreciated and the gift of being able to play music often goes unacknowledged. Senator Keaveney, a noted musician in her own right apart from all her other great talents, pointed out that it is a gift with which one is born. People should appreciate what it means.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Leader is making some tune of this.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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One need only consider the wonderful role our artists have played as ambassadors throughout the world. They include U2 and the Cranberries.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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But not Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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They have presented a new image of Ireland. "Riverdance" and "Lord of the Dance" also come to mind. Need I say more?
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Is it any wonder that we are the envy of the world in terms of our artists and the creativity of our young people? I will endeavour to have this debate take place before the Christmas recess. Senator O'Toole knows I am doing my best in this regard.
I join with Senator Hannigan in welcoming the signing by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform of the convention banning cluster bombs. Members on all sides of the House made a contribution in this regard. I acknowledge the concerns expressed by Senators Hannigan and Walsh regarding gift vouchers and will convey them to the Minister. I suggest that Senator Hannigan seek to have his concerns regarding planning in south County Louth accepted as a matter for debate on the Adjournment. The Cathaoirleach will consider his request. We have legislation to deal with on every sitting day until the Friday before Christmas.
Senator Keaveney raised concerns regarding domestic violence. We will commence our Second Stage consideration of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill next Tuesday. I will undertake to allocate additional time for that debate so that the issue raised by the Senator may be addressed.
Senator Healy Eames called for a debate on the proposed takeover by Ryanair of Aer Lingus. I will endeavour to accede to her proposal but the time is extremely tight. The Senator also called for a debate, to be attended by the Minister for Transport, on major infrastructural projects. A transformation has taken place in the road infrastructure.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Portlaoise to Cashel road is opening this week. The Government is investing 5% of GDP in the capital programme next year, which is a very serious investment in such a difficult economic time.
Senator Alan Kelly expressed his views on the "Prime Time Investigates" programme on RTE last Monday which dealt with the underpayment of wages to non-national workers. Everybody abhors that. The Senator called on the chief executive officers of the companies in the construction and other industries covered by that programme to condemn such actions. That is not a bad idea. There was a resignation yesterday from one of the national organisations. These practices should not have happened in a time of full and plenty. There is no excuse or reason for it. When Irish people went throughout the world to work, they did their best and the worth of their expertise and endeavour was acknowledged. No country's son or daughter should be treated in the way alleged in the "Prime Time Investigates" programme last Monday.
Senator Regan called on the Taoiseach to discuss his views on the Lisbon treaty. I wish the Taoiseach well on his tour of Europe to meet European leaders. He travels to Germany this morning to meet the German Chancellor. The tour is in advance of the meeting of European Heads of Government next week. I wish the Taoiseach well in his discussions on the issue.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I can convey Senator Norris's views to the taxi regulator. One's heart goes out to the person in the example offered by the Senator with regard to how difficult it is for taxi drivers in some areas to make a living. Some of them are struggling to survive. The Senator also made a strong case for sheep farmers. I heard the interview with the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on RTE radio yesterday. He explained the case in detail. The Minister is a person who listens to the people all the time. He is very approachable from the point of view of Members of the Oireachtas and he knows the agriculture portfolio inside out and upside down. He has attentive advisers and he is the one Minister in whom I have 100% confidence to deal with the plight of the small farmer and people in the agriculture sector generally.
Senator Buttimer called for a debate on the unemployment figures. The Senator can include this issue in the debate on the economy next Friday.
The Dail Divided:
For the motion: 24 (Dan Boyle, Martin Brady, Larry Butler, Peter Callanan, John Carty, Donie Cassidy, Maria Corrigan, Mark Daly, John Ellis, Geraldine Feeney, Camillus Glynn, Cecilia Keaveney, Terry Leyden, Marc MacSharry, Lisa McDonald, Brian Ó Domhnaill, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Francis O'Brien, Fiona O'Malley, Ned O'Sullivan, Ann Ormonde, Kieran Phelan, Jim Walsh, Diarmuid Wilson)
Against the motion: 18 (Ivana Bacik, Paddy Burke, Jerry Buttimer, Paudie Coffey, Paul Coghlan, Maurice Cummins, Paschal Donohoe, Frances Fitzgerald, Dominic Hannigan, Fidelma Healy Eames, Nicky McFadden, David Norris, Joe O'Reilly, Joe O'Toole, John Paul Phelan, Eugene Regan, Shane Ross, Liam Twomey)
Tellers: Tá, Senators Fiona O'Malley and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Maurice Cummins and Joe O'Toole.
Question declared carried.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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A member voted in the wrong location, but it makes no difference to the result. The record will be changed to reflect this.