Seanad debates
Wednesday, 29 October 2008
Order of Business
2:30 pm
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Harbours (Amendment) Bill 2008 — Committee Stage (Resumed), which will be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and will adjourn not later than 5.30 p.m. if not previously concluded; No. 23, motion 25 re the educational needs of students with disabilities, to be taken at 5.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 7.30 p.m.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader confirm that the House will have an opportunity to debate health issues with the Minister, Deputy Harney, next week, even though the Government was fairly and squarely handbagged by the elderly when it attempted to steal the medical cards from them? This week we are seeing what can only be described as schoolyard bully tactics in the Government's handling of the education sector and the effect the cutbacks will have on our children. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to have a debate on the effects the educational cutbacks will have on school children.
I would like the Minister for Finance to return to the House. There are major concerns over his first budget two weeks ago, which is falling apart day by day. Great concerns have been raised in business circles as to whether it will solve the problems it was meant to solve. It is creating more confusion regarding how the country is being run rather than solving issues. I would like the Minister to come in here because the uncertainty surrounding the economy is causing major concerns for everybody involved.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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In addition to a debate on health, we also need a debate with the Minister for Education and Science on education matters. The Leader told the House last week that he would arrange a debate on education. I appreciate that my colleagues in the Labour Party have tabled a Private Members' motion for discussion later which relates to education issues, but we would like a debate during Government time with the Minister for Education and Science. That needs to take place.
I do not know whether Members on the Government side have taken much notice of what the Minister has been saying. I hope to outline later the false information and misinformation he has been giving out about the impact of his cuts. It does not help anybody to be found out on these issues. I do not know where we are going and the Leader should ask the Minister to come into the House to explain himself. He has developed a new line in economics — Battonomics. He is telling the world that the Celtic tiger grew out of the large classes of ten years ago, inferring that if we have overly large classes again, we might have a new Celtic tiger. We might also secure global warming and much more with large classes the way he is going.
What he is doing is ludicrous. He referred to partnership, which also needs to be examined. He blew education out of the water, so to speak, without consulting anyone and then visited China where he said he would like to sit down and talk to people. People tried to respond to that by outlining ways through which he might find the money only for him to say on a visit to UCC earlier this week that there would be no change. Last night he stated on "Prime Time" that teachers must take their medicine and the Government will not make any changes. What way is that to do business? He has shut the door on talks and the only response to that is hard action.
I would like to hear from the Green Party Members who have not heard the Minister say there will be not talks as they refer to an opportunity to do something. If the Minister is honest about the cuts he requires and he is telling the truth about their impact, I could sit down and sort it with him in half an hour. There would not be a difficulty doing so without the need for overly large classes and the other actions he is trying to take within the education sector. However, he does not appear to want to do that. I understand we will debate education issues later but I am trying to deal with the political aspect on the Order of Business. I ask that the debate promised last week take place.
The governing body of UCC took a decision yesterday on stem cell research. I do not care whether Members criticise the university administrators but the harsh realty is we, as a Legislature, have funked making a decision on it.
David NorrisJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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We have not taken a decision, right or wrong, about it and we are the last ones who can start criticising those involved. I admire the decision taken but I do not know enough about it to discuss the rights and wrongs involved. The university was left in a vacuum with no guidance from the Legislature. The governing body consulted its own experts and took a decision on the basis of their response. That was the best we could have asked them to do until such time as we put legislation in place.
Alex White (Labour)
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Lest the Government parties think the issues being debated throughout the country such as, last week, the medical card for those over 70 and, this week, class sizes can be neatly compartmentalised into weeks and can be dealt with individually week by week, they should be very clear that these issues will not go away. I agree entirely with the comments of Senators Twomey and O'Toole about the need for a debate on the medical cards question, which should happen as soon as possible. Senator O'Toole is also correct that while the Labour Party has tabled a Private Members' motion for debate later on the disabilities question, there is a clear need for a debate on the wider question of the myriad education cuts the Government introduced in the budget.
I echo Senator O'Toole's question regarding the Green Party. Does the Deputy Leader agree with a statement made by a prominent Green Party politician yesterday that her party would appear to have "no bottom line or any clearly defined point whereupon the party might morally say enough is enough"? Has the party a bottom line? Is there any cut it is not prepared to justify or principle it is not prepared to jettison? Is there anything it is not prepared to put up with in the context of this bottom line that we are asked to believe the party has? The party leader responded to this by announcing we are facing into an economic abyss. That is not good enough. People voted for and transferred to that party on the basis of very solemn commitments given, including on the question of education, and they are entitled to an answer from its members at this stage unless they are happy to contribute to the increasing cynicism about politics and political parties at election time by saying one thing on the doorstep and doing something else entirely six weeks or six months later.
Will the Leader revisit the banking crisis, another issue that has not gone away despite the preoccupations of the Government and the Houses in recent weeks? The all-night session we spent discussing this matter three weeks ago was something of a circus, which I say advisedly because I have the greatest respect for the House. It is difficult to understand why an all-night session and votes at dawn were necessary when the Minister only signed the order late last week, bringing into being the guarantee that he had announced with such fanfare three or four weeks previously.
Will the Leader arrange a debate on why the Government believes that it can deal with the fundamental crisis in the banking system? As Senator Mary White and others stated, it is a practical rather than a theoretical issue. It affects people who need money to ensure the survival of their businesses. A debate is necessary on why the Government believes that it can solve the banking crisis without dealing with the gaping under-capitalisation issue. Experts such as academics and journalists, including the internationally renowned journalist Mr. Will Hutton, who is in Dublin today, point out daily that the Government and small businesses will rue the day when the former made such a short-sighted and incomplete decision on the banks and failed to face up to the fundamental issue, namely, the need to revitalise and recapitalise banks.
Professor Morgan Kelly of UCD referred to the guarantee scheme, on which much time was spent debating, as akin to Fannie Mae, the American mortgage company, immediately prior to nationalisation, that is, "alive but economically useless". He went on to describe the decision as "the worst economic decision of any Irish Government in the last 30 years". Given that this point was made by a serious economic commentator, we must debate the issue again and examine the crisis at the heart of the banking system.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader arrange an urgent debate on the HSE and, in particular, the roll-out of BreastCheck? As Members know, I and others have often raised the matter of discrimination against people in the north west and the delay being perpetrated upon them by the national cancer screening service, NCSS.
Last week, the chief executive of the NCSS, Mr. Tony O'Brien, addressed the Joint Committee on Health and Children and, in the context of the delivery of this vital service to the people of the north west, he stated: "Our screening schedules are dictated by operational considerations alone and we will not be swayed in terms of sequencing." How does the NCSS determine its sequencing and what does "operational considerations" mean? He also stated that BreastCheck remains on schedule. I recall attending a meeting three years ago with the Minister for Health and Children and the mayor of Sligo, among others, at which we were assured that by the end of 2006 BreastCheck would be rolled out in the north west, but that has not happened. However, we are told that it is on schedule.
I was insulted when Mr. O'Brien stated: "BreastCheck will not, therefore, compromise on this quality remit to satisfy any political, with a small "p", or public demand for the introduction of the service." That is offensive in the extreme.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It is the same as in County Waterford.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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It is testament to what has become the normal contempt with which the HSE and its instruments, individuals and subsidiaries hold the political establishment. The situation must change and this House, if not the other House, must begin to take action to show that respect for the officers acting on behalf of the small "p" is required, as they represent the interests of the large "p", the people, and the State. Without that, we have nothing.
Will the Leader arrange, without delay, for the Minister for Health and Children to attend the House to address the disgrace that is the NCSS? Discrimination against the people of the north west must stop now.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by my colleague, Senator Twomey. As a means of addressing the current budgetary crisis, my party has proposed a one-year pay freeze from next September for public servants earning more than €50,000. Fine Gael recognises that difficult decisions must be made. However, I have spoken to one school principal and received e-mail communications from others who have said they would prefer to take a pay freeze than to have pupils and teachers endure unsafe conditions arising from the education cuts in the budget. The principal to whom I spoke, whose school has 650 pupils, is concerned that his staff will be under extreme stress as a result of the withdrawal of substitution and supervision cover, with the result that the school will, according to him, become inoperable. For now, he is left to decide which three teaching posts to cut. He will have no choice but to send pupils home after Christmas.
Another teacher remarked to me that children need resources in education more than ever before in view of the integration of pupils with special needs, Travellers and non-nationals into the school system. Everybody knows we will have to pay for the profligacy and stupidity of the Government during the Celtic tiger years. The obvious way to raise money is to impose a pay freeze on the public sector. Such is the good will of teachers contacting me that they are prepared to take the hit rather than have their children suffer and see the future of this country go down the drain. In the two weeks since the budget, I have repeatedly asked the Leader to say when the Minister will come into the House to face these realities and answer our questions. I look forward to being given a specific date today.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader allow a debate on the proposed 2% tax on betting? I am not in the gambling league but representations have been made to me regarding the effect this tax will have on small businesses throughout the State, where jobs will be lost.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Will Senator Leyden bet on an election?
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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There is a better way. A tax could be imposed, as is the case in Northern Ireland and Britain, which would apply to the gross turnover of companies. Such a charge, even if it were set at 2% or 3%, would be preferable to imposing a charge on the placing of bets. The placing of bets through electronic methods via the Internet is becoming more commonplace and such transactions are not subject to tax. There will be no incentive to go to the local betting shop and pay a charge to place a bet if one can avoid doing so by going on-line or availing of the services of a company registered abroad.
We on this side of the House must seek to be positive in identifying aspects of the budget where we can obtain the same financial return, if not more, but in a different way. I have made a submission to the Minister on behalf of the Irish Bookmakers Association, which is a reputable organisation. Some of its members are facing the closure of their offices. I understand a former Minister from a party on the other side of the House is experiencing difficulties with his betting shops.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Chapter 3, verse 2 according to Senator Leyden.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden should be allowed to continue without interruption.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The larger companies, such as Paddy Power, are not concerned by this tax because they have the capacity to squeeze out the smaller operators. I do not want to cause further concerns, leading to a protest in a week's time by the betting organisations. I wish to prevent that.
I take this opportunity to say well done to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Hanafin, for ensuring there will be a double payment to social welfare recipients this Christmas. We on this side of the House have shown exactly where we stand.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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During difficult times in the past, the social welfare bonus was only an additional 50%, before increasing to 75% and, in recent years, to a double payment. The Fianna Fáil-Green Party-Progressive Democrats Government has protected that provision.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate the Minister on this measure, which will cost €200 million.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to debate the implications of yesterday's remarkable decision by the governing body of University College Cork to approve a protocol allowing human embryonic cell stem research at the university. I am sorry to say that my colleague, Senator Joe O'Toole, could not be more wrong in his analysis of the issue. There is an urgent need for a debate on this issue. The move by University College Cork, UCC, is astonishing for many reasons. It has pre-empted legislation in what is a vitally sensitive area. This publicly-funded body has pre-empted legislation and, possibly, a Supreme Court decision and has done so, it seems, without any public consultation. So slight is its regard for the Legislature that a letter which I wrote to the president of UCC last Friday was not circulated, as I requested, to the members of the governing body in advance of a meeting. While UCC was unable to confirm that this was the case, I have been informed by sources within the governing body that it is the case. So opaque are the proceedings of the governing body, I was not able to get confirmation of this fact.
There has been no public consultation on this issue, which has profound ethical implications. This is occurring at a time when the potential of adult stem cell research, which is ethically uncontroversial, cannot be denied and when people like Dr. Colin McGuckin, an eminent scientist, are leaving Newcastle University in England for France because of the over-emphasis on embryo destructive research at that university. We should be seeking to employ such people so that we can pursue scientifically promising and ethically uncontroversial research. However, we have been pre-empted by the governing body of UCC.
We must also consider how it has, perhaps, queered the pitch for the Lisbon treaty. How can we reassure people that our social and ethical values are being protected by the Irish Government at European level when we allow this to happen at our backdoor? I do not know how I can offer such reassurance to people in the light of the current legislative vacuum.
Ivana BacikRónán Mullen (Independent)
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Exactly. I want to give that reassurance but I cannot do so unless we address this legislative gap. We cannot simply have legislation by university dons. The Oireachtas, under the Constitution, has the right to make laws on behalf of the Irish people and we should exercise that right.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I rise to raise two matters. Moving away from the budget debate, I ask the Leader to invite to this House the Minister for Transport to make a statement on the current status of the restoration of the Cork-Swansea ferry.
3:00 pm
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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This is an old hobby horse of mine which I raised previously in the House. I am glad to hear that the Minister met representatives from Cork and Kerry last week. This matter is more regional than parochial and is urgent in so far as that, even though we are in the middle of winter, if the new vessel is not secured in the next two or three weeks the ferry service from Cork to Rosslare, which has been in operation for many years, will be lost. That will have a devastating effect on the socio-economic life of the southern region, with an acute contraction of the tourism industry, which is critical to the area. This is not the first time I have made this request. The Minister for Transport should make a statement on the matter. I am aware there are some restrictions owing to competition rules but the support of the Minister in question, Deputy Noel Dempsey, is critical to the ongoing discussions in this regard.
I also previously requested a debate on the fishing industry. While this was promised prior to the summer recess, I later agreed with the Leader to postpone it. However, this matter now requires urgent attention. We hear much about teachers, farmers and the elderly, but the fishing industry is in crisis. It is critical that such debate takes place before the end of November, if possible. The Minister and his officials will attend a meeting in Europe to seek extra quotas and fair play within the European structures for our fishermen.
It is nice to order monkfish or seabass when dining out in a restaurant, but people tend to forget from where the fish comes. The fishing industry has been neglected for too long. I urge the Leader to arrange a debate on this issue. If he wishes, I would be willing to let the tide ebb a little in respect of the Harbours (Amendment) Bill to give precedence to a debate on the fishing industry in the next two or three weeks.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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One aspect of the proposed education cuts that may be going under the radar but is very serious in terms of national reconciliation and the Anglo-Irish Agreement and in terms of where we want to go as a country is the removal of the block and ancillary grants from Protestant schools. The issue is very serious in that many Protestant children are happy to be educated in co-education and community schools, which is fair enough, but it is the wish of a number of Protestant parents and their children that they are educated in schools with their own ethos, which is their right under the Constitution.
The Protestant schools used the block and ancillary grants to fund the education of Protestant children from the poorer income groups — in other words, the fees of these children were waived. This happened in the Royal School in Cavan, which celebrated its 400th anniversary recently, and other schools throughout the country. Such schools will not now be in a position to provide education for these poorer children, who wish to go to such schools and maintain their ethos.
I ask the Leader to consider this issue and discuss it specifically with the Minister for Education and Science. I know the Leader is a wise man and will commend to the Minister to rescind this measure. It would be brave of him to do so and say that a mistake has been made and that the measure must be reconsidered. We cannot deny children of a minority religious group their wish to be educated in their own schools, as it is their prerogative under the Constitution, ethically and morally.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
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I congratulate Senator O'Reilly on his comments about Protestant schools. He literally took the words out of my mouth and his point was well made. There is much idle talk about fee-paying schools, but Protestant schools in regions where their populations are small carry many poor pupils. They are in a special position, even leaving aside the special position they have in the Proclamation of the Republic. The reference to cherishing the children of the nation equally is to nothing except our Protestant brethren North and South. Northern Ireland will watch with great interest what we do in this regard.
Indirectly, this raises a wider question. I approached the Minister yesterday in Cork when he was surrounded by chanting students. I asked him about Protestant schools and he assured me he would look hard at the issue.
Independents should not take themselves too seriously, and while I have abstained until now and voted with the Government, there is a bottom line to my commitment to voting with the Government. If there is no reform of the public sector in the report, I will vote as I please after that on the merits of the matter as I see it. I have one term in the Seanad and I intend to make a mark with regard to reform of the public sector.
Mary WhiteEoghan Harris (Independent)
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Unless the public sector, what I term the cushioned class, is reformed, there can be no peace. It is wrong to pick on the Minister of State, Deputy Máire Hoctor, or the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, who are unfortunate to have to carry the burden of what should be a general taxation issue. Children, pensioners and individual Ministers should not have to carry that burden. That is the reason I will not vote against the Minister on a vote of confidence this time as it is not fair to the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe. The Government is funking and getting the money from the only class which has it currently, the cushioned class of the public sector, the higher paid public sector.
Over the weekend we found out many things from reports. We found it is no longer true that the public sector is paid substantially less than the private sector. There are no masses of low-paid public sector workers, as we were told, although there is a number of them. People in permanent and pensionable employment will sail through a recession and allow their fellow workers and comrades in the private sector to squeeze, struggle and strain through the recession. That is wrong.
I strongly support Deputy Brian Hayes's comments on a pay freeze for principals, Deputy Richard Bruton's statement on reform of the public sector and the comments of Kevin Myers this morning that we are in a virtual wartime situation. We need a national Government that will deal with these matters. It is appalling that there is no one in the Government of the calibre of Deputies Richard Bruton and Brian Hayes.
Paudie Coffey