Seanad debates
Thursday, 12 October 2006
Order of Business
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4. No. 1, statements on housing, will be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business until 1.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes each, and the Minister to be called upon to reply no later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements. No. 2, statements on ageism, will be taken at 2 p.m., to conclude not later than 4 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes each, and the Minister to be called upon to reply no later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements. No. 3, Europol (Amendment) Bill 2006 — Committee and Remaining Stages, will be taken on the conclusion of No. 2 or at 4 p.m. if No. 2 has not concluded earlier and will conclude no later than 4.30 p.m. No. 4, the International Criminal Court Bill 2003 — Report and Final Stages, will be taken on the conclusion of No. 3, or at 4.30 p.m. if No. 3 has not concluded earlier and will conclude no later than 5 p.m. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. to 2 p.m. I hope there will not be a rush of university Senators from the House, given that all their votes have been lost.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I was referring to Trinity College Dublin.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I wish to return to an issue I raised on yesterday's Order of Business. On today's "Morning Ireland", the Minister for Education and Science confirmed that interest accruing on SSIA accounts is being regarded as income when it comes to determining the eligibility of families to claim third level grant support. Irrespective of whether this affects one family or 21,000 families, it is wrong to assess interest on SSIAs in this way. The Leader of the House was correct to remark yesterday that such an assessment will put groups of borderline families over the limit. Similar arguments have already been made in my constituency and we now have confirmation on the matter from the Minister.
I want the Government to take a decision to disregard interest accruing from SSIAs for the purpose of assessed income, in view of the fact that it is a one-off savings scheme rather than a continuous deposit account. I urge the Minister, who is finely tuned to public opinion, to resolve this issue by calling on local authorities not to press low and middle income families on their assessments. I will congratulate her if she can resolve the issue by Friday at 5 p.m.
Throughout the country, enumerators are working on behalf of local authorities to check the accuracy of the register of electors. A good debate was held in this House five months ago in which all sides called for increased support in ensuring a more accurate and up-to-date register. However, it has been brought to my attention that if someone calls to a house but finds nobody there, the resident is struck off the register if he or she does not subsequently contact the local authority. As many as 20% of voters in County Louth have been struck off the register because of failures on the part of householders to contact the local authority there.
The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government needs to advise this House on the exact guidelines on the issue. A dangerous prospect arises when people are taken off the electoral register and, while we all wish to see an accurate register, we need to address the issue of people being struck off merely because they have not contacted the local authority.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I strongly support the points made by Senator Brian Hayes on SSIAs. It is not good enough for the Minister to claim that only a small number of people will be affected because the issue will affect families which have skimped and scraped over a number of years to save for an SSIA in the hope that the resulting bonus would help send their children to college. Now, however, the reward for their efforts is the loss of the grant. However small the number concerned, who among us wants to explain that our political decision has sent a family backwards? It is an unacceptable situation, and I believe Government Members feel as strongly as I do about the matter.
It may be true to say that a small number of people will be affected but what difference does that make to a family which made great sacrifices and prudent arrangements only to be refused a grant? The scheme should be regarded as a one-off bonus to taxpayers and an attempt to inculcate a savings culture. The Leader made similar points yesterday and, while I hesitate to make a party political argument, the Government has to address the issue.
Yesterday, Senator Morrissey referred to the importance of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. While I should declare my interest as vice-chair of the board, I would welcome a debate on the matter. The annual report of the PIAB is awaiting Government approval, if it has not already been approved. Through the intervention of the PIAB, the price of premia has been reduced to an extraordinary extent and the cost of settling claims stands at 10% of the previous figure. That represents significant savings for the State and for people purchasing insurance.
However, a problem arises in that we are coming to end of the first cycle and we need to be careful to ensure that we continue our work. The insurance market in Ireland needs to attract more people. I hope this House will offer its support because everything the PIAB does is challenged by some group or other. Every month, there are challenges to its work in the courts and elsewhere in order to prevent it from achieving its aims.
I ask the House to convey its congratulations to the former Senator, Dr. Maurice Manning, who has been appointed chair of the European group of human rights institutions. His appointment is a signal honour for him and for the Irish Human Rights Commission.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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As a long-time colleague of Dr. Manning, I fully share Senator O'Toole's opinion with regard to the appointment. I am at a loss to understand how anybody could have treated SSIAs in the manner described by Senator Brian Hayes. It is as if somebody, perhaps in a more financially focused area than the Department of Education and Science, has decided that SSIAs were a big mistake and wanted to recoup the money. While the Minister for Education and Science seems too sensible to make a decision such as this, I suspect somebody beyond her decided differently. As the House will be aware, I see the malign influence of the Department of Finance in many areas of life, so I would not be surprised to see its hand in this matter.
Yesterday, reference was made to the continuing uncertainty on the future of Cork and Shannon airports and the Government's apparent determination to break the promise it made that the two airports would begin their operations without debt. The Government appears unable to make a decision on the matter, with the consequence that the airports are also unable to make decisions on their future. If Cork Airport is landed with a debt of €160 million, the repayments will cost €10 per passenger for the next five or six years. That will have a profound effect on business passing through Cork Airport. Shannon Airport will have similar problems.
We now know that the Dublin Airport Authority is trying to manage the future of Shannon Airport from a distance of 120 miles and I presume it will attempt to do the same in respect of Cork. Cork and Shannon airports are in a worse situation now than they were when Aer Rianta offered some sort of formal structure. It is high time that the Government kept its promise by resolving the issue so that Cork and Shannon airports can develop as planned.
Today's newspapers published a report by Johns Hopkins University on the death toll in Iraq. It is a highly reputed university and I do not believe anybody should argue about the methodology. The work this university has done is unchallengeable. It reckons that 650,000 more people have died in Iraq since the invasion than would otherwise have been the case. This is a huge figure and is twice to three times as many people killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. What is astonishing is not the figure but that it is being tucked away in the inside pages of our newspapers. Nobody wants to face this fact.
This information is effectively unchallengeable but it is being challenged by the usual spokesmen in the usual places in the White House. We are talking about 650,000 Iraqis who have died because of this exercise in liberation. It is time we said those 650,000 people were murdered by George Bush and Tony Blair. Let me not hear another word from the US Government about terrorism. The prime terrorists in the world are in the White House in the United States. The evidence is that 650,000 people have died in five years.
Linked to that I call for the beginning of a debate on war and armaments. We now have a €15 billion national pensions fund. The least we can do is ensure it is not invested in the armaments industry but we cannot get that categorical assurance from the fund. There ought to be a fundamental ethical principle that our future pensions should not be dependent on armaments or, incidentally, on tobacco. We would be correctly horrified if it were involved in the drugs industry. However, the fund is categorically refusing to exclude the armaments industry from its portfolio. The armaments industry will kill more innocent people in a year than the drugs industry. It is a fundamental issue and it is related to the scale of what happened in Iraq because we are tainted by that type of nonsense if we invest money in such industries.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to see an overhaul of the processing of, and the assessment for, third level grants. If such an overhaul took place, it might overcome the problem with the interest on special savings investment accounts. Perhaps that is an area we might examine.
I support Senator Brian Hayes's call for a debate on the register of electors. I would like the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to come to the House to update us on the register and how it is being compiled and upgraded. There are many loopholes which are not being closed.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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In 2003, the then Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, said that if the Government had not decentralised 10,300 people by December 2006, it did not deserve to be re-elected. That is interesting because, to date, just over 600 people have been decentralised. The figure will be 700 by December. It is farcical in the extreme to continue to talk about decentralisation, to purchase land and to construct buildings. An example of this is Birr to which FÁS was due to centralise. Of the 390 FÁS employees, only two people who were recruited recently have volunteered to go. It is ludicrous and we need to look at the issue.
I saw in the newspaper this morning that Newcastle West is due to get 50 decentralised jobs which are included in the 600 figure. From information obtained during a recent Adjournment debate, Newcastle West will get 50 jobs in the Revenue Commissioners office in 2008. Almost all the 50 people are coming from the existing Revenue Commissioners office in Limerick city. I do not know of anybody who is coming from Dublin.
A few months ago a plaque was erected outside the location selected and the entire Progressive Democrats entourage from the county joined the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, at the event. However, the jobs will not be decentralised to Newcastle West until 2008. The people are not even being trained in Newcastle West but are being trained in Limerick city in the existing Revenue Commissioners office. The decentralisation programme must be examined. The Government probably does not want to roll back on it because it has set an objective but reality and pragmatism are required.
Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
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On decentralisation, there is a success story in Tubbercurry, County Sligo, where 75 people from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs are located. The office is, however, temporary as it is intended to move the jobs to Knock. Another 75 people are due to move to Tubbercurry and they would do so tomorrow morning if they could but the space is not available at present. That is the other side of coin.
I support Senator O'Toole's call for a debate on the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. There is no doubt it has made an enormous difference to the cost of motor and other insurance. It is imperative we support it in every way we can. It has made a tremendous difference to young people in terms of the cost of insurance. I often spoke about the cost of insurance for young people when they were quoted £4,000 to £6,000 for insurance. They can now get insurance for as low as €2,000. That is helping to keep people at home in rural areas.
David Norris (Independent)
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I support what my colleague, Senator Ryan, said about the situation in Iraq. It was the type of thing I said last night during the debate on whether we should transmit information to the United States Government. People talked about democracy but since Mr. Bush's election, "democracy" is a word which makes me want to puke every time I hear it. We talked about democracy in the European Union and the way the European Parliament found out that what was being done in terms of transferring this information was illegal but what did it do about it? It was referred to the European Court of Justice and it found it to be illegal but it continued to transmit the information. How democratic is that? They are all sucking up to the United States.
Some of us raised these issues before when the Lancet produced figures over a year ago. It said that more than 100,000 had been killed but it was rubbished and the figure is now in excess of 600,000. The methodology was impugned. The methodology is irreproachable in this case which involved professional epidemiologists. There is no question of doubt whatever. However, we should not be surprised by the reaction. The US Government is deeply criminal. It advocates and practises torture, saturation bombing of civilians, assassinations and murder. It has managed to make a complete botch of the trial of its former ally, Mr. Saddam Hussein. His trial has been vitiated by the way in which it was established. Prejudicial comments were made by the Government there assuming he was guilty before the trial even commenced. A number of advocates of Saddam Hussein were assassinated and then the judge was removed by the Government.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot have a debate on that matter.
David Norris (Independent)
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I call for a debate on the matter. I found the Leader's comments on the Trinity College Dublin situation a little difficult to follow but if I am correct——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business.
11:00 am
David Norris (Independent)
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I beg your pardon, a Chathaoirligh, it most definitely is and you know that and are just being roguish. It is relevant to the Order of Business because I put the matter down as one for the Adjournment debate as I was aware of it. It is quite scandalous and it fits in very much with what Senator Brian Hayes said about deficiencies in the electoral register. This was an administrative error. There is probably approximately one year to go before the general election and there is no reason these 742 graduates could not be included on the register. A statutory instrument was used in a parallel case some years ago and I call on the Minister, as I will during the Adjournment debate which I hope will be taken in the next few days, to ensure these 742 graduates are not disenfranchised.
The issue of the special savings investment scheme is a scandal. Most of the wealthiest people in this country do not pay any tax. Even our valued and beloved Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, did not seem to pay much tax on the various gifts he received and yet people who have been encouraged to save will be penalised. At the time this scheme was launched, I heard senior members of Government on radio being questioned by concerned members of the public who asked if they would be pushed over the limit if they saved. They were told that would not happen. Those guarantees were given and they must be honoured. This is a sign of meanness on the part of local authorities. It is quite characteristic. I previously raised a case, which the Cathaoirleach may remember, where a blind student got a grant because he was so brilliant to do a PhD in history and the local authority tried to subtract the value of the grant from his blind pension. How disgusting, mean and cheese paring can we get? We in this House have got to stand up for the rights of the little people.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, wish to support the call for a debate on Iraq. In the early stages of that conflict, Members of this House opposed the invasion and pointed out clearly that some of us felt it was illegal. We now know the reasons given were based on lies. The invasion did not have the imprimatur of the United Nations at that time.
At the time, some people may even have projected the idea that in some way we were anti-American. This was absolute nonsense. It is now evident we were reflecting the views of the American people, as the majority are now questioning the continued occupation of Iraq. They are questioning the number of deaths which is enormous but to aggravate matters, they see the worsening situation in the world.
One does not require a great deal of common sense to see that if young Muslims, in particular, view as we do the hypocrisy, lies, mayhem, destruction and vested interests, we are creating a breeding ground for terrorism in the future. One can well ask why that should concern this Chamber or Ireland. We are now talking about global terrorism. No matter how small or how weak the voice, it is important we put that on record now. Senior Republicans are now coming out of the woodwork in America. It is not just the Democrats anymore. There is some focus on changing the endgame. We should now be independent. In fairness to the Government, I believe it has done a good job in this regard but we should express independent views now to focus in the right direction and not just consider political and economic expediency vis-À-vis the big powers of the world.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to facilitate us in bringing the Minister for Social and Family Affairs into the House to provide us with an opportunity to voice our concerns about the growing plight of poorer people — those people who are either on low income or are trying to survive on welfare benefits. In recent days we heard calls from the Combat Poverty Agency regarding 200,000 children who should receive hot meals every day in schools. Currently, 50,000 children are in receipt of hot school meals. The Combat Poverty Agency is concerned that 200,000 children of poor families should receive hot meals every day in schools. We should facilitate that in schools.
The Combat Poverty Agency also highlights the increasing number of families who will be cold this winter because they cannot afford the rising cost of fuel. The benefits they receive will not meet the present costs. There are many issues we need to debate before the budget to see what we can do to help the poorer members of our community.
Mary WhiteSheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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At a time when we have such wealth in our country we also have a growing number of poor people. If possible, we should have this debate before the budget.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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Will the Leader seek clarity from the Minister for Social and Family Affairs regarding a press release he issued in April 2006 relating to lone parents? At that stage he stated, he would "end the cohabitation rule by making it neutral in terms of influencing people's basic choices regarding their living arrangements". I contacted the Department last week on behalf of an individual who came to my clinic who was using this provision to get a mortgage. This person wanted to progress but was refused a mortgage on the basis that this provision has not yet come into effect. I phoned the Minister's office on a number of occasions and spoke to civil servants but they said the measure had not yet come into effect. I am interested to learn when the Minister intends introducing this measure as it is creating difficulty for many lone parents around the country.
Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I support the call for action on SSIAs, as proposed by the leader of the Opposition, Senator Brian Hayes. This is another example of penny-pinching policies by the Government. Senator Finucane referred to another example of this yesterday in regard to nursing home subventions, in that it is now the case that 5% of the value of one's home will be regarded as income. I support the call for a debate on this issue.
In regard to SSIAs, I am most disappointed the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, a fellow Tipperary lady for whom I have the utmost respect, is allowing this to happen. I put it to the Leader that there is little wonder there is cynicism among young people about politicians and politics because, on the one had hand, their parents are being penalised for doing what they were encouraged to do, namely save, and, on the other hand, the Taoiseach has been explaining for the past two or three weeks why there was no need to pay tax in various situations whether it was for personal loans, gifts or whip-rounds. This is an urgent issue and I support the call for a debate on it.
The issue of free education could be added to the debate. This is a myth, especially at primary level with the high cost of books, the ongoing collections it is necessary for people to make to provide school equipment and to keep schools going and up to standard. I support the call for an urgent debate on the matter.
I agree with Senator Norris, except to say that it is unfair to blame local authorities. They are obliged to implement schemes and they are bound by regulations and rules that are put in place by the Minister. It is not fair to blame local authorities for the penny pinching that is taking place.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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As we are talking about blaming local authorities, yesterday the chairman of the planning board blamed local authorities for the huge waste of money that is occurring because of planning permission being given on motorways. Motorways were designed for long journeys but instead, to a very large extent, they are being used by local authorities to put shopping centres or business parks alongside them. This means they are being used for short journeys. The reason I raise this issue is that the chairman of the planning board has said this is a wake-up call and that the money that has been spent on motorways could be wasted within ten years unless something is done.
The chairman gave a briefing on An Bord Pleanála's annual report yesterday. This report is worthy of serious investigation. Another aspect to which the chairman referred was the large number of planning appeals that are not being dealt with in the statutory period of 18 weeks. I am sure this is owing to a shortage of funds. Only 53% of planning appeals are being decided on within 18 weeks. I assume this problem can be solved with more money but whatever is the cause, we should be doing something about it.
When we make a decision to spend money on roads, we appear to work only normal hours on those roads. In other countries the digging up and closing of a road is considered as a costly exercise for the nation as a whole, whether it be in time, petrol or whatever else. We only use eight hours per day to repair roads while in other countries they use 24 hours to repair them and the work gets done in one third the time we spend. I am not sure how we solve this problem. It is not necessarily the remit of local authorities or the National Roads Authority but it is something we should address. We should look at the overall cost of closing roads.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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Like Senator Ryan, I was interested in the reporting of Iraq's appalling death rate. This morning, I bought the International Herald Tribune because I was sure the story would be on its front page, but it is on page five.
Last night, there was a television debate on the report, which was published by the Johns Hopkins University, one of the most prestigious universities in the world. The methodology behind the report is being queried, but that methodology was developed in Harvard. While I have not heard of it being rubbished in any other instance in which it was applied, President Bush asked why the figures from Iraq's morgues are not the same as the report's figures. I have heard anecdotal evidence that, for their own good, doctors in Iraqi hospitals are advised not to count what is going in and out of their morgues too carefully. It would be better for them to leave the country were they to give the accurate statistics, which some did. They have since sought the sanctuary of Syria.
Will the Leader arrange a debate on Iraq? Previously, she has allowed such a discussion several times and she can see that Members on all sides of the House are alarmed by what is happening in Iraq.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes raised the issue of interest on SSIAs and asked that it be treated as a disregard item in means testing. I congratulate the Senator on raising an issue that has since received coverage and in respect of which there is general agreement. I hope the Government will examine the matter. Often, I work on the basis of the telephone calls I receive, of which there were two relating to this issue this morning. In both cases, parents who had invested wisely in SSIAs were just over the amount allowable. They found the interest, small though it was, tipped them into "not granted" status. I do not view the number of people affected as a criterion and I intend to make representations on this matter at our parliamentary party meeting.
The Senator raised the issue of the register of electors, which our parliamentary party debated this week. In County Westmeath, enumerators are ordered to call to each house three times if no one is at home the first two times and, on the third visit, to leave the form. This is fair.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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If nothing happens after three visits and leaving the form, there is no great interest, but I cannot believe people call to houses only once and tell the occupants who have not returned their forms they cannot be on the register.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Are the enumerators calling between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m.?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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No. In my county, they call between 5 p.m. and 9 p.m.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Enumerators are paid on a per capita basis in respect of names added to the register. Therefore, there is an incentive for them to get as many names as possible. There should be uniformity across the country. This matter is worthy of a debate and I will endeavour to arrange it.
Senator O'Toole raised the matter of SSIAs and asked to be informed when the report of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board has been approved, which will happen during the next few days. Senator Morrissey raised this issue yesterday. Senator O'Toole congratulated Dr. Maurice Manning on his new position as chair of the European group of human rights institutions. That is Dr. Manning's due, as he is the ideal person to address such matters.
Senator Ryan wished to join Senator O'Toole in congratulating Dr. Manning, a previous Leader of the House, and raised the matter of Cork and Shannon airports. I fear this issue will limp along with nothing getting done.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Cork Airport has beautiful new facilities that everyone has praised and many people use. I always said the State Airports Act 2004 was deficient in many respects. It was a wing and a prayer. Let us get something done.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The money to close the gap has not been forthcoming, but I hope the matter will be settled.
Senator Ryan referred to the figure of 655,000 people found in the data from the Johns Hopkins University, which everyone recognises. The war in Iraq is an obscenity in terms of human life lost, nature and the world, but people keep excusing it. I cannot understand how Prime Minister Tony Blair can enjoy himself in light of such carry on.
Senator Ryan also raised the matter of our pension funds being invested in the armaments industry. That investment would be wrong because it would encourage further investment.
Senator Ormonde preferred an overhaul of the third level grants system in the course of which the SSIA issue could be examined. While worthy, it is a long-term project. I agree the SSIA issue must be re-examined.
I am sorry that Newcastle West has not experienced a more satisfactory resolution to the decentralisation issue, but there are a number of good stories. Senator Scanlan spoke about Tubbercurry's success and Senator Moylan, the Government Whip, told the House about 165 people decentralising to the Department of Finance in Tullamore and settling down in what has been a good operation. While there are minuses, there are also pluses.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge that, but a sense of realism and pragmatism should exist at this stage.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The matter is being examined realistically. While people point out deficits in such situations, there are also great credits. Perhaps it is more difficult to get people to move to the areas in which decentralisation is not working because they are not as attractive as Tullamore or Tubbercurry. Sligo is an attractive county.
I agree with Senator Norris's comments on Iraq. I am unsure as to whether the Senator should be Saddam Hussein's advocate. The matter of the Trinity graduates to whom the Senator referred is a muddle to me. The names or forms of some 742 graduates have gone missing.
David Norris (Independent)
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We have the forms, but the question is one of accepting them, which the Minister can do.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The Senator has tabled the matter as a motion for the Adjournment. It would be a suitable debate.
Senator Ó Murchú said some strong words about Iraq. When I called the invasion illegal, I was rapped across the knuckles 45 times, but I remember that the Senator always spoke strongly on the matter. Iraq is a breeding ground for young Muslim terrorists.
Senator Terry asked for the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, to attend the House to debate the Combat Poverty Agency's calls for meals in schools. She also asked for a debate on the economy before the budget. Last week, Senator Mansergh called for such a debate prior to the budget — we do not have debates on the economics of the budget — whereby we could set out our stalls. I will endeavour to arrange the debate.
Senator McCarthy raised the matter of cohabiting lone parents. We were told the days of peeping from behind hedges to determine who was entering or leaving a house were over, but they are not. I also telephoned the Department because we were told that cohabitation would not be a hindrance to people getting their allowances. While this provision should be official policy, it has not become so yet.
Senator Coonan raised the matter of SSIAs and how they relate to the free education myth. A great deal of taxpayers' money is spent on education, forming a significant financial commitment for which parents have always wished.
Senator Quinn raised the issue of An Bord Pleanála, which is a disgrace. One cannot make representations to it. The board will take a telephone call, but one will be told nothing. The Senator referred to the specific case of shopping centres and shorter road journeys. It would befit the chairman of the board to attend to his business.
I am dealing with one planning case, which has gone from April to July, July to September, September to October and now to November, and all I am told is that it is not known why there has been such a delay and that in any event, staff are not allowed to say why. I understand they are protected by legislation and cannot say, but it ill behoves the person who cannot manage his own emporium to start giving out wise sauce about other matters.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I had to get that off my chest. I do not mind their decisions; that is their own business.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is their carry on about putting back a matter repeatedly. It was five times put back.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We would want to proceed with caution, given the fact that they cannot be identified.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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All right. The Senator also spoke about working normal hours on the roads.
Senator Henry raised the appalling death rate in Iraq. I agree with her that Johns Hopkins University is so highly regarded; Harvard is as well. We would seek to have that debate as quickly as possible.