Seanad debates

Tuesday, 30 May 2006

2:30 pm

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is Nos. 1 and 2. No. 1 is a referral motion whereby the subject matter of motion No. 15 on today's Order Paper is being referred to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights for consideration. It is primarily a judicial arrangement whereby the judicial authority in a state requested to execute an arrest warrant would recognise a warrant issued by the judicial authority in Norway or Iceland and it is proposed to take this item without debate. No. 2, statements on progress on the national development plan 2006 in the BMW region, will be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude not later than 6 p.m., spokespersons have 15 minutes, other Senators have ten minutes and the Minister will be called on to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of statements.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Given the very recent decision of the High Court to release and quash the conviction of a 41 year old convicted of statutory rape — a person known in the courts as Mr. A — I propose that following the Order of Business, the House debate this matter to clarify the view of the Government and its decision following its meeting this morning. I formally move an amendment to the Order of Business that such a debate follow the Order of Business. It is vitally important for both Houses of the Oireachtas to speak with one voice to ensure the lacuna in Irish law, which has existed since last week's Supreme Court decision, is resolved if not by the end of this week, certainly by next week. Both Houses of the Oireachtas should meet next week to resolve this matter.

I understand there are seven cases which have the potential to come before the courts and where persons who have been through the courts, tried and convicted of statutory rape could have those convictions quashed as a result of the Supreme Court ruling. The precedent of today's case is a very worrying one. It is crucially important the House debates the matter today and that both Houses agree to resolve the difficulties in terms of legislation soon.

The issue of the age of consent, which has convulsed the nation, should be left to another day. It is the primary responsibility of legislators to plug this gap in the law and to ensure a safe environment for our children. That is the responsibility of both Houses and if it means meeting next week, we must do so. There is an ultimate responsibility on the House to debate these important matters today.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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On my way to the Chamber I became aware this man had been released. While there has been much discussion in the recent past about the question of statutory rape, in most cases people are talking about consenting teenagers and consenting people over the age limit. The young girl in this case was 12 years of age, she was filled with drink and was raped. Under no circumstances would anybody show tolerance in this regard.

I second Senator Brian Hayes's amendment to the Order of Business that this matter be debated today. If it is more convenient for the Leader, I am sure Senator Brian Hayes would not mind if the matter was taken after No. 1 rather than before it. However, this matter should be debated today.

Quite understandably, there will be shock and horror throughout the country about this issue. It will be shared by both sides of the House as this is not a political issue. As Senator Brian Hayes quite rightly said, this is not an issue on which there is political division; it is simply a matter with which we need to deal.

There are a number of reasons we should debate this matter today. We should get a clear outline of how the Government intends to deal with this matter and since the Cabinet discussed it this morning and the Minister and his Department have been dealing with it for the past week, it should be available and we should be brought into the loop in terms of what will be done.

Until one hour ago I was of the view that we should take our time to ensure the legislation is accurate. In that regard, there are two issues with which we must deal, namely, the age of consent and closing the loophole in the current legislation. We need to address this in two stages, leaving the age of consent issue to another day because it is not one on which there will be wide consensus. To close the loophole we need to introduce an amendment that will allow a defence to be entered and to allow a judge to make a decision that an incident may be statutory rape. Something as simple as that could be dealt with in the next 48 hours. The broader legislation which is also required to deal with the age of consent issue will take longer.

We need to know what the Government is doing, what its plans are for closing the loophole to allow a defence to be entered and to allow a judge conclude that in some situations it may not be statutory rape. We also need to know what is the Government's plan in regard to the age of consent but that can wait a while.

I second the amendment to the Order of Business. It would not look well to the public if the House divided on this issue. We need to debate this issue, speak with a common voice and show leadership.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Labour)
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I echo the comments of Senators Brian Hayes and O'Toole. Where is the Bill today to address the fact that we have no absolute protection for children from sexual predators? That is the consequence of the Supreme Court judgment handed down last week which ruled that a section of an Act dealing with this issue was unconstitutional. Last week, I and other Senators, asked for urgent legislation, saying that it should take priority over everything else. We should have a Bill before us today, not next week or whenever the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform suggests.

I could not believe my ears when listening to the interview by Pat Kenny with the Minister on this issue. The Minister said there was no need to rush, there was no gaping hole in the legislation and that the legislation on sexual offences would deal with the issue, which is untrue. I have good legal advice to that effect. Members of Fine Gael described the Minister's comments as flippant. Those flippant comments about 15 year old girls and 23 year old men missed the point.

According to a report in the Sunday Independent the Government did not see this coming down the line. That is ridiculous. The State was defending this case in the Supreme Court. How could it not have known? This is a serious issue. Children are now at risk because of this judgment and the failure of the Government to act urgently on it.

The Minister should have anticipated this judgment. Ministers are normally very good at anticipating outcomes and having statements prepared on less serious matters such as the Eurovision song contest. A week later there is no Bill on this matter before the Oireachtas. A Bill should be placed before the Houses before the end of this week, if we care about our children.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Science has published a draft report on the state of adult literacy. In 1997 a total of 500,000 adults had literacy difficulties. This figure has increased in the intervening period mainly due to the presence of immigrants. The level of spending on adult literacy reflects the lack of commitment on the part of the Minister and the Government to dealing with this problem in the past ten years. The OECD published a report on this in 1997 but the problem is getting worse.

Approximately €5,000 is spent per pupil at primary level, €7,000 at second level and €9,000 at third level but an appalling €600 is spent per person on adult education. Literacy problems have serious consequences for industry and for the investment we need to make in education. We have been told a new survey will be carried out to discover current levels of illiteracy. As it is ten years since this one and the situation has worsened, will the Leader ask the Minister to provide adequate funding immediately to alleviate the difficulties in this area? The problem will not be solved overnight. Thanks are due to our vocational education committees as they are the only ones who have initiated worthwhile efforts to eliminate adult literacy problems. Will the Leader ask the Minister to come to the House to outline her commitment to rectifying this serious problem?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome a former Deputy and Member of the House, John Browne, to the Visitors Gallery.

Photo of Ann OrmondeAnn Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I read the committee's report on literacy but have difficulty accepting it. I would like the Minister to explain the situation. I know she has her heart in the right place with regard to adult literacy. There has been a significant increase in funding and the VECs have put forward many programmes to counter the escalation of difficulties in the area.

There is another question we must ask. The definition of literacy in 1997 would not be the same as today's definition. Therefore, how do we define it now? It would be good for the Minister to come to the House and discuss the issue. I do not accept the findings of the report as presented in the Chamber today.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader invite the Minister for Agriculture and Food to the House to debate food labelling laws? Citizens have the right to know where their food originates. Significant amounts of food are imported, for example, lamb from New Zealand, beef from South America, pork from North America and vegetables from the Middle East, and labelled as Irish produce. This is scandalous as most Irish people want to buy Irish products. The importation of food which is subsequently labelled as Irish has a big impact on our farm produce. This issue and the loopholes in our food labelling laws which allow this practice must be addressed.

I urge the Leader to arrange a debate on the issue. What happens currently is a scandal. The matter has been highlighted time and again by Fine Gael spokespersons in this House and the Dáil, but the Government has failed to act. It must change labelling laws to make the practice of labelling imported food as Irish produce illegal. Farming organisations and producers throughout the country have highlighted the issue, which is a problem in other countries also. It should be tackled at European level too.

I support the call by our Fine Gael leader to abandon next week's recess because of the large number of important issues that need to be addressed in the House. There is a backlog of debates for which Senators have called so in the interest of the people we represent we should abandon next week's recess.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader arrange a debate on housing? I asked previously for a debate on this with specific reference to the elderly, single people and childless couples who are discriminated against by local authorities. Recently a person who came to my office told me how he was sleeping on a friend's couch. His marriage had broken up and he was paying his former wife €1,800 per month in maintenance and mortgage charges, but he could not go on the local authority housing list because, in theory, he had a house. He could not go on the affordable housing list either, because he was considered too rich. Such people are discriminated against. If he has to go to court to seek custody of the children, the judge will ask whether he has suitable accommodation, which of course he has not. We need a debate on this issue.

Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I will also be alarmed if people are released because they are found to have been convicted under an unconstitutional Act. I am not sure that we can do anything retrospectively to allow people who were convicted in that manner to be brought before the courts again. I would like to make a wider point, however. I ask the Leader to consider arranging a debate on what we should do with the reports of the Law Reform Commission.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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The Law Reform Commission issued a report on this issue 14 years ago. There has been such a change in social mores and attitudes since then that it is almost time to examine the matter again. These extremely worthy and energetic people are devoting their time to producing reports, which pile up on our desks without anybody moving them on. It could be useful for the Seanad to take ownership of the reports and to debate them.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I join Senators in expressing my shock at the outcome of the Mr. A case, which places young people at risk. We need leadership and unity to ensure that this loophole is plugged, which is what we intend to do. I call on the House to ensure that we have unity and leadership.

I claimed a few months ago that a certain cabal within the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government was out of control. The Department has, in effect, scuppered a €150 million project adjacent to Lough Key Forest Park in north Roscommon. It is wrong that the Department's heritage section is imposing its views on the wishes of the people. As the chairperson of the forest park's action group, I believe there has to be development and that the environment has to be protected. The cabal I have mentioned is calling the shots and ensuring that reports are drawn up to scupper development. It has no interest in imposing anything in local areas.

The Department did not buy Lissadell House in County Sligo, but it will be trying to buy development lands in the interests of the State. It is drawing up reports, determining its positions in its own interests and stopping development in the west. I asked the Minister to deal with the people in question but he has not done so. The cabal is not out of control — it is in control of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The sooner this stops, the better.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I do not wish to be unduly critical of any Department or any aspect of the work of any Department. The decision that has been taken on the development mentioned by Senator Feighan warrants a debate in the House. It was suggested during the Second Stage debate on the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 that the legislation should relate to tourism amenities in certain regions, such as hotels and developments like that proposed for Lough Key Forest Park. The contribution of such amenities to the regions is of strategic national importance.

If bodies like Dúchas or parts of Departments decide that developments should not proceed because they will affect a certain type of snail or some aspect of the natural environment, so be it. However, they should have a responsibility to suggest what would work. It is time for people to acknowledge that the north west and the west are regions which need to be viable. I will be able to discuss this matter in more detail during the debate on the national development plan this afternoon. Such regions should be developed in the interests of the people who live there and not just as weekend destinations for city dwellers, who want to have Peig Sayers looking over a half-door with a pint of Guinness and a pipe.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I stand with my colleagues who have highlighted the serious situation caused by the outcome of a court case involving a 41 year old man who raped a 12 year old girl. The outcome of the case has sent shockwaves throughout the country, particularly among people who are personally involved in cases which are due to be brought to the High Court. We have to unite to face our collective responsibility on this issue.

In respect of cancer services, yesterday the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, visited Letterkenny and elsewhere in County Donegal. I welcome her presence in the county, to which I have invited her numerous times. From a personal perspective, I acknowledge she was quite empathetic towards the needs and plight of people from County Donegal. She also provided a good listening service yesterday, of which the staff were appreciative.

A Cabinet meeting will be held on 9 June. Although Members always pin ultimate responsibility on the Minister for Health and Children and at times can be quite critical because it is such an emotive and important issue, the Cabinet has collective responsibility. I urge the Leader, who has taken a great personal interest in the general provision of cancer services, to use her good offices to emphasise and highlight the importance and need for radiotherapy services for the north west.

While radiotherapy services exist in Dublin, Cork and Galway and are due to be provided in Limerick and Waterford, the north west still awaits such services. This issue must be expedited. This matter is extremely important because I want to retain current levels of services, which will only be possible with a satellite radiation facility in the north west. Specifically, this should be located in Letterkenny, which is the pivotal point at which to work in collaboration with Sligo General Hospital and Altnagelvin Hospital in Derry.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I hold the obviously old-fashioned view in respect of policy functions, where exercised by Departments, that it is the Minister who should be held accountable and who should come and answer for them in the House, rather than taking to task groups of civil servants.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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What does one do when they have gone out of control? What does one do when the Minister refuses to do anything about it?

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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A Minister is supposed to be in control of the policy function of his Department.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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The Minister refuses to do anything about it. He has refused on numerous occasions to do anything about it. The Minister is asleep.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Feighan, allow Senator Mansergh to speak without interruption.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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The Minister is asleep and has forgotten about the west of Ireland.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should debate that point with the Minister.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Perhaps Senator Mansergh will have a word in his ear.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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The Minister is also deaf.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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My second point is that I agree that urgent legislative action is required. However, other issues suggest it should not be rushed. Senator Maurice Hayes made a valid point about reports from the Law Reform Commission. The trouble is — and it applies in this particular instance — that sometimes its recommendations are substantially in advance of contemporary public and political opinion.

I remember in 1991, a former Fianna Fáil Taoiseach made a suggestion in respect of the age of consent. At that time, he was denounced on all sides, by his own party as well as by the Opposition. Hence, there are times when it is simply not politically possible. The initial negative reaction may be one of the explanations as to why the delay has taken place.

3:00 pm

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I join with colleagues in their request that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform come into the House today at the earliest possible opportunity. I support Senator Brian Hayes's proposed amendment to the Order of Business to the effect that it should be rearranged to facilitate a discussion on this extremely important issue which has arisen again today.

I share the views of my colleague, Senator Tuffy, regarding the comments of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on radio last week. He treated a serious subject in a flippant manner. I have some time for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who is a man of ability. However, he is prone to treating serious issues in an inappropriate manner. In this case he would have been better served spending time last week drafting a solution to the problem that has been created rather than going on the national airwaves.

I join Senator Browne in calling for a debate on housing. He specifically mentioned single people and those without children. I would also like to include elderly single men. Many elderly single men continue to live in prefabricated accommodation, which is a disgrace and must not be allowed to continue. If we are to have a debate on housing we must also discuss those people.

I ask the Leader to organise a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on the issue of water fluoridation. While I know this topic has been discussed in the House before, I do not believe it has been discussed in my time here. Grave concerns on the issue have been raised in the past, which, perhaps, can be allayed by the Minister.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to request the Minister for Agriculture and Food to take steps immediately to alleviate the serious financial problems facing farmers in the Shannon basin because of the serious flooding necessitating the movement of livestock. The area is certain to have serious fodder shortages.

I support the important point mentioned by Senator Feighan. As they are no longer local authority members, Senators may not be aware of the line taken by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. While we all want to preserve our heritage, in recent months the Department has notified local authorities that they should list a large number of buildings in many towns. I believe it leaves much to be desired. There is nothing to be preserved in some of the buildings known to me that have been named by the Department. If the same is true nationwide, the issue is serious. Through the county development plan, local authority members are quite capable of listing whatever buildings need to be preserved. Senator Feighan is correct in raising this important matter.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I agree with the amendment tabled by Senator Brian Hayes and I support the comments of many colleagues, especially those of Senator Tuffy. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform got it badly wrong last week on this issue. Children are at risk as we speak and we need the loophole in the law to be addressed immediately. Last year emergency legislation was introduced to deal with leases for land in the IDA system. It was passed through the House in a matter of hours. This can be dealt with and should be dealt with. The people will demand nothing less from us. This matter must be addressed today because we are speaking about innocent children. I hope the Government will give the matter the urgency it requires.

Senator Maurice Hayes made very good points about the Law Reform Commission. Many of these reports are simply lying on desks and are not being given any consideration. It is time that we addressed the issue. I agree with him that the Seanad may be the appropriate forum to discuss such Law Reform Commission reports. I call on the Leader to address the matter in the hope that some of those reports can be addressed in the House.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach and other Heads of State will meet at the United Nations in New York tomorrow to discuss the issue of HIV-AIDS. I will support whatever action is proposed. A declaration following a seminar in Africa last week called for research into a vaccine for AIDS. No cure is available but it is hoped an effort will be made by the great brains of the world to address this. In particular, infected mothers pass on the virus to their babies when breast-feeding but there is a shortage of milk substitute in African. When people call for a freeze on aid to developing countries in the Third World, they should recall that no milk substitute is available for these innocent children. The House should unite to make it clear that overseas development aid should continue so that this basic human right of babies and young children can be vindicated.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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There is no dissent, only unanimity, on the important issue raised by Senator Brian Hayes and others. It is correct that the Opposition raise it but it is equally correct that the Government parties should share the moral outrage which is rife throughout the land and among all political parties and Independent Members. Fianna Fáil mothers and fathers are outraged at what happened in the same way as Fine Gael mothers and fathers. We all have the same fears and share the same concerns about what is happening, particularly in view of the court judgment, but we cannot comment on that because there is meant to be a clear distinction between the Oireachtas and the Judiciary. I have always made it a feature of my life not to condemn or praise judges. One cannot do so because one would cross a boundary one should not cross.

The Supreme Court ruled last week on the basis of the Constitution and we are all ruled by the Constitution, which is our guiding star. However, it is up to Oireachtas to fill the gap highlighted by the Supreme Court and that is where we come in to take the necessary legislation professionally and correctly in a proper, legal sense. We all share the outrage and the sense of confusion about where we stand, whether we are in a morass and what will be done. The way out is proper legislation, which we await. I did not have to hand information about what happened at Cabinet earlier. How could I unless I was peeping around the door? I do not have that knowledge but I intend to have myself fully briefed on the matter following the Order of Business, which is my job.

Senator Brian Hayes is correct that it is up to this Chamber to ensure the legislation is introduced and dealt with as quickly as possible. We cannot talk about what is in it until we get it and we cannot get it until it is formulated. When I find out what measures the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform brought to the Cabinet meeting earlier and the outcome of the Cabinet's deliberations, we will know the way forward.

Senator Brian Hayes is also correct to raise the issue and it is up to us to resolve it as quickly as possible. Last week Senator Glynn said the House should sit on Sunday, if necessary, to deal with the necessary legislation. Everyone would share his sense of urgency. As Senator Phelan said, our voice has to be united on this issue because we are in the morass together. Senator Brian Hayes is entitled to make his proposal but I cannot simply fetch a Minister here to explain the situation. I hope, however, that legislation will be introduced as quickly as possible.

Senator O'Toole seconded Senator Hayes's proposal but added that we should perhaps wait until a Minister becomes available before debating the matter. He also advised that we will need to clearly understand what has to be done in terms of closing the loophole and that questions on the age of consent should be addressed within the wider legislative environment.

Senator Tuffy referred to a radio show and described the matter as urgent. I am sure the parents of young people are living in fear of the future. The shocking result of today's case has caused very significant anguish for us all.

Senator Ulick Burke called for a debate on the issues that have arisen since 1997 in the area of adult literacy. He said that €5,000 is being spent per pupil at primary level, €7,000 at secondary level and €9,000 at third level but only €600 is being spent per person on adult literacy. Senator Ormonde found it difficult to understand the latest report on adult literacy and would welcome a debate on the matter.

Senator Bannon wants the Minister for Agriculture and Food to address the issue of food labelling because, in many cases, the products we are told are made in Ireland could in fact come from anywhere. I fully agree with the Senator that a recess is unnecessary. We will debate the Bill whenever it is brought and, if we have to take it during the recess, we will do so. This Chamber has never faltered in its attention to legislation.

Senator Browne called for a debate on housing. Divorce legislation has given rise to new housing issues, some of which I am trying to address on behalf of my constituents. The children of a divorced couple may be required to spend weekdays with their mother and weekends with their father. However, a new aspect of housing need which is only now becoming apparent is that in many cases, the father's home is too small to accommodate the children. The Senator also outlined the needs of older tenants and single people. We will endeavour to hold a debate on these issues.

I concur with Senator Maurice Hayes on the reports of the Law Reform Commission. As we work our way through the current crisis, I hope knowledgeable Senators will be able to speak on these issues.

Senator Feighan called for unity among Senators in their response to the Mr. A case. He also discussed the Lough Key development project, with which I am somewhat familiar. The Senator claimed that the project, which is worth €150 million, has been neglected.

Senator MacSharry asked whether key developments such as the Lough Key development could be worked into the critical infrastructure Bill and said he does not want to see the north west as a schmaltzy Irish tourist destination rather than a viable region for people to live in.

Senator McHugh spoke about collective responsibility. He said the Tánaiste visited Donegal and I am glad he was satisfied that she came and was empathetic to the plight of cancer sufferers in Donegal. An important meeting of the Cabinet on 9 June will address cancer services, including radiotherapy. I will speak to the Tánaiste on the matter before that, as the Senator asked.

In response to Senator Feighan's statement about civil servants, Senator Mansergh made the point that Ministers are in charge of Departments. The age of consent of 16 in 1981 was made in the context of a Law Reform Commission recommendation.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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1991.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Those recommendations are sometimes ahead of their time. The commission sees society going in certain directions and steers the law accordingly. Many Law Reform Commission reports would, if implemented immediately, result in mayhem throughout the land, but in five or ten years they may be acceptable in changing the social mores of the country.

Senator John Paul Phelan wants a debate on housing, specifically on the smaller houses or old persons' dwellings, OPDs, and a debate on water fluoridation. I seem to remember we had that debate recently but I will check this. Senator Moylan said the farmers in the Shannon Basin are facing problems due to flooding and I agree. He also raised an interesting matter about how county councils are being asked to list all the buildings in their territory that are to be preserved. Some of the buildings for which they are requesting preservation are dubious and I see nothing of particular note about them.

Senator Cummins wants legislation to close the recent loophole urgently addressed. He may take it that it is happening. I have not got a grip on it yet because I came here directly after the Senators' meeting. He said we urgently addressed the land lease Bill last year. Let me repeat that whenever there is urgent legislation to be addressed, this House will be recalled and will give plenty of time to debate it, whether it is on a weekend or a recess. Senator Kitt spoke about the UN meeting on HIV-AIDS in New York, the shortage of formula feeds in Africa and the need for us to highlight that matter. I thank him for raising it.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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May I propose a solution to the situation the Leader has outlined? I understand perfectly the difficulty she has in producing a Minister willy nilly out of a hat. If she gives a commitment that a debate will take place tomorrow for an hour or two, I will withdraw my amendment today. I suggest that No. 5, the National Economic and Social Development Office Bill, not be proceeded with tomorrow. It has been hanging around for four years and it does not matter if it waits another week or two. While I understand the Leader's difficulty and I appreciate her point that we are trying to address this on a cross-party basis, a debate of some description must be held today or tomorrow.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I accept what Senator Hayes has said and it is worthy of him that he has put his suggestion forward in a gracious way. I would need to leave the Chamber to arrange that but I will seek to arrange a debate. Senator Brian Hayes wishes to know where we are going in this quagmire.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I am grateful for the Leader's suggestion and I withdraw the amendment.

Order of Business agreed to.