Seanad debates
Wednesday, 22 February 2006
Order of Business.
2:30 pm
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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The Order of Business is Nos. 1, 2 and 26. No. 1 is a referral motion whereby the subject matter of No. 17 on today's Order Paper is being referred to the Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food for consideration. The Act amends and extends the Diseases of Animals Acts 1966 to 2001 and its provisions enhance the Minister's ability to deal with all animal disease situations and also with criminal activity in regard to animal health. It is proposed to take this item without debate. No. 2 is statements on funding for third level education and the Fottrell report, resumed, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 5 p.m. The contributions of Senators are not to exceed ten minutes each and Senators may share time, and the Minister will be called on to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements. No. 26, Private Members' motion No. 26, will be taken from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Last month I raised with the Deputy Leader the issue of allowing non-national recruits to the Garda Síochána to be granted citizenship when appointed to the force. Has he considered the matter further? It is positive that many non-nationals are to join the Garda Síochána. It is good for the Garda and good for society at large. Those people, when they are to be appointed as fully serving officers of the force, should also have the opportunity to become Irish citizens.
Next week I will produce a Private Members' Bill allowing for this development in the context of an amendment to the Garda Síochána Bill. I have received legal opinion to the effect that it may not require legislation but merely a simple resolution of both Houses of the Oireachtas to allow that situation to come to pass.
I know the Government is generally positive towards this proposal. In the next week or two, will the Government set aside some of its own time or give the Opposition time to put this resolution to the House? The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be eager to consider the matter although, clearly, he would need to raise it with his colleagues in Government. There is general cross-party support for this proposal. It is a good idea, it is worth doing and it should be initiated in this House. I ask for time to debate the matter, if the Deputy Leader will allow.
Will the Deputy Leader provide time next week to allow the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come to the House to make a statement and to hear contributions from Members on the question of the Garda reserve? I am supportive of the proposal, which is a good idea. I welcome that the Minister has published guidelines for the new recruits to this service. Much of the comment in this regard is scaremongering from people who should know better. I ask that the Government provide time next week for the Minister to make a full statement and hear comment from all sides. Of course there should be consultation and all of the associations and bodies which represent the Garda Síochána should be part and parcel of this process. However, there is an absolute responsibility on the members of the force to enforce the law. The law is clear on this issue — under the Garda Síochána Bill a reserve is to be established and that law must be enforced.
Will the Deputy Leader, my colleagues on the other side of the House and the Government in particular not use their blocking majority to vote down Private Members' motion No. 25 on the Order Paper, which concerns the establishment of a select committee of this House to consider what is happening at Shannon Airport?
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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There is cross-party support for a genuine select committee to examine all aspects of this matter, including the question of extraordinary rendition and the use of Irish airspace and airports for this practice. Other parliaments have done this — the European Parliament has led the way. Why can we not have, in this House in particular, a similar committee working on a cross-party basis? Even at this late stage, I ask the Government not to use its blocking majority. It should put Private Members' motion No. 25 before the House and then let us see the report of the select committee.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I could not agree more with Senator Brian Hayes. My colleague, Senator Norris, last week highlighted the importance of this issue. The House has previously agreed to a debate. I ask that the point put forward by Senator Norris, and the motion that has now gone forward in his name, be accepted by the House. It should be accepted not just with a free vote but without a vote at all. Senator Norris will expand on this point when he speaks.
I previously supported the proposal from Senator Hayes that gardaí from non-national communities be allowed citizenship. It is a good idea. It may be useful to have a general debate on that proposal and the Garda reserve force. The Deputy Leader might also confirm that the Government, in supporting the idea of giving non-nationals citizenship, has dismissed the recent daft notion from Aire na Gaeltachta that foreign national applicants to the Garda would be required to spend three months in the Gaeltacht and pass an Irish examination before their appointment. We should expose this type of compulsion and nonsense, which is choking the Irish language, and address it properly.
It would be good to provide for gardaí in the force — be they national or non-national — the idea of a support for them to go to the Gaeltacht, learn about ways there and the language, not as a condition or a matter of compulsion, but as an action that would expand their involvement with Ireland. All of us would support such an idea.
I would like a debate on what we mean by the notion of free speech in a democracy. This was raised here in a recent debate, which related to cartoons. We knew where we stood on that issue, although there were some doubts about the cartoons themselves. The recent imprisonment of a fascist Nazi in Austria raises concern. If somebody raises issues of incitement to hatred or takes similar action, it is clear how the law should act. If people are simply speaking stupidly, they should be sent to a place other than a prison. Such people should be dealt with in that way.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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If information is being used in a way to incite anti-Semitism or something similar, I agree that people doing so should be put behind bars. We do not have a clear understanding of where we stand in a theoretical basis, and what are the principles governing free speech in matters such as these.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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There is a prominent Turkish writer currently facing charges because he has attempted to ask his country to confront its own history. I fully agree with Senator O'Toole in stating that nobody should go to prison because they challenge accepted history.
The issue of road safety is almost at the point of monotony at this stage. I am not sure I even wish to indicate a wish for a debate on it. The political system in the State must nonetheless confront the issue. The public is at the stage where it believes that neither Government nor Oireachtas nor any other body is really concerned about what is occurring on our roads.
The public knows, for example, that the vast majority of truck drivers are blatantly breaking speed limits. It was happening again this morning. The Irish Road Hauliers Association simply denies this and nobody investigates the matter. We all know that trucks are not supposed to be going above 80 km/h, but they travel at 100 km/h or 120 km/h, as anybody travelling on motorways will testify.
It is time that a concerted plan of action be put in place. We all believe in lectures to the public about the need for greater responsibility, and I am not interested in digging up ancient history about what anybody stated 20 years ago. Lecturing the public is not now sufficient. The real deterrent to bad driving is the likelihood of being caught. It is not a potential penalty or another factor. Why will it take 12 months to introduce legislation to deal with random breath testing? Why are there no speed cameras? Why has it taken years to get mutual recognition of penalty points between this State and Northern Ireland? The list of questions goes on. The public has come to the conclusion that nobody in the Houses of the Oireachtas cares about the issue.
I am reluctant to suggest a debate but I ask that a Minister come to the House soon, for it is not overburdened with legislation, with a series of legislative proposals to deal with the issue. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should give a commitment that gardaí will be present and visible where they are needed, not sitting on a flyover shooting fish in a barrel and collecting large numbers of speeding fines, but on the roads, where this horrible slaughter happens weekend after weekend. I am not interested in making a party political issue out of it.
I was not in the House last week and most extraordinary things happened in my absence. I choose not to believe it was a coincidence.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I was tempted to say something but I will refrain.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I ask for a debate on human rights because there seem to be great sensitivities about the matter. I am reputedly anti-American. However, I recently read a report which stated:
In several communities there were allegations of incidents of violence against racial minorities and immigrants. Societal discrimination against immigrants and ethnic minorities continues to be a growing problem.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ryan has already been given some latitude.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I will finish soon but I want to make the point. The report goes on to state "A distinct ethnic group faces societal discrimination". Who am I talking about?
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It is from the US State Department's report on human rights in Ireland. If our friends in the US are entitled to write that about us, and they are, where did the notion arise that we cannot scrutinise them?
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I support Senator Brian Hayes because this is an extraordinary position. I appeal to the Members on the Government side to rethink. I do not know who got at them or what motivated them to change their minds. I spent much of my time trying to ensure that the proposed committee had a Government majority, so that we could not be accused of hijacking it. I suggested that to the Leader because I did not want it to become a political issue. However, it has been turned into a political issue by people who either lack the spine or the compunction to make up their own minds.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for deeming my matter on the Adjournment to be in order and I will raise it on another day.
On another more serious issue, I ask the Deputy Leader for a debate as soon as possible on competitiveness, particularly in the north-west region, the counties of Sligo, Donegal and Leitrim. Traditional manufacturing industry in that part of the country is in freefall. I would like such a debate to call on the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, or indeed the Taoiseach if he is available, to establish a cross-departmental team to devise an immediate strategy to attract new foreign direct investment into the region and to establish an environment which will allow further indigenous industry, backed by Enterprise Ireland, to flourish.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I ask that the statements on planning be resumed at the earliest opportunity. My colleague, Senator Scanlon, also wanted to raise this today. Yesterday An Bord Pleanála vetoed a hotel development in Enniscrone, County Sligo, which would have created 200 jobs. It is disgraceful that an area that most needs jobs misses out because of our planning system.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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A report was published today by the National Youth Council of Ireland, in conjunction with the Equality Authority, on inequalities relating to the stereotyping of young people. Among the issues which emerged was that young people believe their stereotyping by adults is as unequal as it ever was. There were concerns that the media stereotypes young people into categories related to crime, deviance, delinquency, drug and alcohol problems, sexual promiscuity and general disorderliness. The research also indicated that politicians are dismissive of young people and add fuel to the fire of media stereotyping. A vacuum exists which we, as elected politicians, need to fill. Vibrant, independent and strong-minded young characters feel they are not being represented, for which we are all to blame.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I want an early debate on how we can proactively involve and engage young people in the democratic process. We need to do so sooner rather than later because, if we do not, issues concerning young people, such as the road carnage referred to by Senator Ryan, will not be addressed. If young people are disenfranchised from the process or do not live up to their responsibilities, we have to find out what is going on in their minds. We must represent rather than stereotype them.
Margaret Cox (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator MacSharry's call for discussions on competitiveness in the north west and ask that such a debate be extended to the entire western region. The current manufacturing situation throughout the country is affecting our exports and is a reflection of the difficulties which Irish manufacturing companies face when operating in a global economy.
I ask the Deputy Leader to arrange a debate on the issue of special needs education. Over the past few years, when legislation on disabilities and education passed through both Houses, discussions were held on the issue of children who, on turning 18 are no longer the responsibility of the Department of Education and Science. I would like the Minister to report to this House on events subsequent to the enactment of that legislation and to indicate the improvements made to provisions for 18 year olds with special needs. While I believe that will make for short reading, I would like the opportunity to debate the matter.
I twice raised the issue of Great Southern Hotels and, if the matter is not discussed this week, I will take action next week on the Order of Business. When we asked for a debate, the Leader suggested that she would arrange one when the Minister returned from America this week. Unfortunately, it does not appear possible to get a Minister to address the issue this week, so I ask that the debate be held next week. If that is not possible, we will have to amend the Order of Business to facilitate it.
David Norris (Independent)
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I propose that we amend the Order of Business by taking No. 26, motion No. 25, concerning the establishment of terms of reference for a committee of inquiry into Shannon Airport. This was subverted last week as a result of intervention by various people, including some who are influenced heavily by councillors. I would have thought that, in light of the behaviour of a number of councillors, parliamentarians would be careful before doing the bidding or becoming the lackeys of people who have not been elected to this House.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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That is an outrage and should be withdrawn.
David Norris (Independent)
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It is a perfect argument for an examination of the undemocratic method by which people such as you, Senator Dooley, are elected to this House.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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That is a slight on councillors from Clare.
David Norris (Independent)
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I am speaking on this issue and giving my reasons, which I am entitled to do. Members may have noticed unfavourable comments in last weekend's newspapers. I recommend in particular that we all read the article by Diarmuid Doyle in The Sunday Tribune about the forelock tugging that went on.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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When did journalists start running the country?
David Norris (Independent)
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He said this was the single greatest argument for the abolition of the Seanad.
David Norris (Independent)
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The person interrupting me now mentioned the Seanad's 50 years of history and he is right. For 800 years we were ruled by Britain. Is that an argument for going back?
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Is that what Senator Norris wants us to go back to?
David Norris (Independent)
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Perhaps it is. The Government side of the House could be as craven to the British as it is to George Bush.
David Norris (Independent)
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I wrote to the Garda Commissioner and he appointed two detective chief superintendents to meet me. I also brought with me Deputy Michael D. Higgins from the other House.
David Norris (Independent)
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It is directly relevant. They told me that under the way in which the UN convention on torture is incorporated in Irish law, they did not have the power to enter the aeroplanes. The Government has sent a report to Switzerland stating the complete opposite.
David Norris (Independent)
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That is why this committee of inquiry is important. One of them is not telling the truth and we are entitled to know which.
The Government has also said there are no aeroplanes involved in rendition through Shannon Airport. That is a lie and the Government knows it. We have the flight patterns and we know one was refuelled on the way back.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I am calling Senator Leyden. Senator Norris should resume his seat.
David Norris (Independent)
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This has been whipped. The Government side has been whipped and that shows this goes to the highest level. I blame the Taoiseach.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy Leader arrange for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come into the House as soon as possible to discuss the proposals for the Garda reserve force? Measures to establish such a force are contained in the Garda Síochána Act but should be debated further. This House should discuss the legislation and its implementation. Without the co-operation of the GRA and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, it will not come about. There is time for negotiation to ensure full co-operation from the GRA.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am a nominee of the GRA and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We know that. What is the Senator's question to the Deputy Leader? He should not give us information we already know.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Deputy Leader to request the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come before the House and outline the proposals for the establishment of the Garda reserve force and how he can overcome the opposition from the force to his proposals. In the Minister's statement at the time, he said the decision was subject to a decision by the Government to establish such a force and that it would be beneficial to discuss it. It is an important issue and we should debate it.
Senator Norris was not concerned when the Cubans were going through Shannon Airport at one time.
3:00 pm
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator Ryan's comments on recent accidents. I raised the issue last week and made the point that the rules of the road should be available in different languages. I was pleased to hear the Garda assistant commissioner agree with me on "Five Seven Live" that it should happen. The Government should take action in this area. I was also pleased to read that the Government is taking action on drivers from the North of Ireland and Britain who snub our penalty point system and get away with it.
Will the Government also listen to the other remarks the assistant commissioner made during the radio interview in question? He made valid proposals for dealing with cars from eastern Europe and problems related to the NCT, insurance and so forth. Tackling this issue will require a multifaceted approach. I support Senator Ryan in this regard because, as the events of every weekend demonstrate, drastic measures are required to end the carnage on the roads.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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As 13 Senators are offering and only 15 minutes remain on the Order of Business, I ask speakers to be brief.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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While the House does not have a Green Party Senator, I express my abhorrence at the fire-bombing of the home of a public representative for expressing opposition to dumping and legitimate views about anti-social and anti-environmental behaviour. Public representatives represent many citizens and are entitled to be inviolate and protected.
I am sure members of the Garda, on further reflection, will appreciate their role and responsibility in upholding the rule of law in a democracy and fulfilling the will of this Parliament, following further consultation as necessary.
I do not share Senator O'Toole's view on the subject of the historian who was imprisoned in Austria. If Ireland had the experience Austria and Germany had during the period of the Nazi regime, we would take a serious and dim view of somebody who claimed that none of the events in question took place.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I add my support to Senator Norris's amendment which has already been seconded. I was in the House when the issue of establishing a select committee was first raised and no indication was given at any level that there was resistance to the Seanad inquiring into the relevant matter. The House has a right to discuss issues in the manner Senators choose. It is clear the stance of Senators from the other side is being dictated from outside the House. I appeal to them to honour the standing and status of the House by supporting the amendment and proceeding to establish the sub-committee.
David Norris (Independent)
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Both Government parties have been whipped.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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Arising from the news which emerged from County Meath yesterday, I ask for a debate on industrial development, job creation and competitiveness. In recent years, large areas of the country have experienced many job losses as industries left without replacement. The people of these regions, which include significant areas of the midlands extending into County Tipperary, are being told by IDA Ireland, at least unofficially, that there is no hope of ever securing industrial development. This is not acceptable. I would welcome an opportunity to discuss strategies on job creation, industrial development and competitiveness.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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On the question of establishing a select committee, nobody outside the House will tell me how I should think or what decision I should make.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased the use of Shannon Airport is being investigated by the Council of Europe and European Parliament.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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Why can the House not inquire into the matter?
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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We should await the outcome of those investigations.
David Norris (Independent)
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The Senator and her party have been whipped. The Taoiseach told them what to do.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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On the request for a debate on the reserve force for the Garda, I would welcome a decision by the Minister to come before the House. Mixed messages are being sent regarding the role of the force and the criteria, guidelines and regulations which will apply to it. It would be good to have a debate to allow us clear the air.
There is a difficulty with the issue of road safety. Senator Ryan said that it is not the responsibility of the individual.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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Of course it is a matter of behaviour. When the auxiliary force comes in we can couple the two. I would welcome a debate on both.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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In the past week many local authority tenants have received notice of rent increases. This increase is savage, particularly for those in receipt of social welfare. Old-age pensioners have received an increase of approximately €14 per week. Three constituents of mine have received notice of an €11 per week increase in their rent on top of increases in charges for refuse and water services and electricity charges. Where stands the budget promise to bring those on the poverty line out of the poverty trap?
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I want the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, to come to the House and justify why he is allowed to take back the money that was given in what was supposedly the most generous budget in the history of the country.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I support the call by Senator Brian Hayes and others for a debate on the reserve Garda force. I have a vested interest in that I want to see the green man gone and replaced by a garda on the beat. Senator McHugh raised the issue of involving young people in the democratic process. Westmeath County Council has a junior county council — perhaps other councils could follow suit. We are the first in many things, of which this is another example.
I ask the Deputy Leader to request the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children to come to the House for a debate on diabetes. Again last weekend at least one national newspaper ran a major article on this area, which it referred to as the silent epidemic. As it is a significant issue, I again ask for an early debate.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I regard myself as a friend of the United States and therefore when Senator Norris and others proposed the establishment of a select committee, I was very careful before deciding to add my name to the motion. Great care was taken with the wording of the proposal, which I support, as I believe it is up to us in this House and nowhere else to make our own decisions.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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On that basis we should have a select committee to hear various views that might be expressed.
It has been proposed to hold a debate on competitiveness. The loss of 350 jobs at the NEC plant in Ballivor is a sign of what is happening and is likely to continue to happen. Our future is unlikely to be in manufacturing, which is much more likely to take place in Asia and elsewhere. Our future lies in high added value and internationally-traded services. Unless we take note of this and make decisions to put ourselves into a competitive league to a greater extent than at present, we will not succeed. Therefore, I support the call for an urgent debate on competitiveness.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased that Senator Quinn raised the issue of competitiveness, as I was rising to support my colleague Senator MacSharry in asking for a debate. As a result of structural and cultural reasons, the north west and the west in general have been lagging behind the rest of the country. These reasons might not be quite in keeping with what Senator Quinn is suggesting, which is a more global view of competitiveness to which I would subscribe in the national macro-economic area. However, certain issues underlie the reasons for such a high level of youth unemployment in the north west and especially in Donegal, mainly related to the focus on one or two industries. With regard to the Saehan Media disaster of last week, when it started trading in Sligo it was seen as a flagship project that employed over 350 people at a time when there were very few industrial jobs. That is an indication of how circumstances have changed. I am sure we would all agree that the loss of jobs in Ballivor is a disaster.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Those matters can be raised in the debate.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I am aware of that.
Will the Deputy Leader consider inviting the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Conor Lenihan, to the House to discuss the overseas aid programme, with particular reference to Ethiopia? This issue has generated a great deal of controversy and my colleagues in the foreign affairs committee will be aware that it has been debated over the past number of weeks. The issues being raised by the NGOs, John O'Shea, the Minister and others are worthy of a wider debate and this House would be the ideal vehicle for that.
I agree with my colleague, Senator Mansergh, and I am glad he raised the issue, that the attack on the home of Councillor Mary White is unacceptable in a democracy. She is an elected representative and if the people who attempted to blow her and her husband to smithereens feel so strongly about the particular issue, why do they not stand for election?
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I agree with the last point made by Senator Mooney. The attack on the home of Councillor Mary White was appalling. For any public representative to be subject to such an attack is unacceptable, and I agree with the comments of previous speakers in that regard.
I join with other Senators in calling for a debate on competitiveness, which should be broadened out to the entire country. Previous speakers mentioned different regions in the west but as far as I am concerned there are only two regions in this country — Dublin and the rest. I am a representative of the south-east region and we have the lowest per capita income, the highest levels of unemployment of any region in the country and the lowest levels of third level entrants. Such a debate would be useful but it should cover the whole country.
I ask the Deputy Leader, as someone who is involved in agriculture, to ask the Minister for Agriculture and Food to come into the House and outline the measures the Government is taking to ensure we do not have an outbreak of avian influenza here and, if such an outbreak takes place, the measures the Government will put in place to handle it. I listened in horror yesterday to a man from Waterford outline on the national airwaves his attempts to make contact with various Government agencies and Departments over the weekend about a dead bird he found.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made the point. Discussion of that matter can be done in the debate that will come.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Serious deficiencies exist in the current Government plans and it would be useful if the House were given an outline of the Government's proposals as soon as possible.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I oppose the motion calling for the establishment of a select committee of the Seanad, as proposed in No. 26, motion No. 25 on today's Order Paper. I do so because there are two similar investigations under way, one by the EU Parliament and the other by the Council of Europe, both of which are getting the full support and co-operation of the Government. We were circulated today with documentation the Government has provided to the Council of Europe. It is comprehensive and sets out in great detail, as requested under Article 52, information I believe is relevant to those investigations. I fail to understand the need to establish a committee when it will not gain further information. Its only purpose will be to fan the flames of the anti-American lobby which, unfortunately, is becoming prevalent in this society.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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It will create a diplomatic rift between two sovereign states at a time when we depend on the diplomatic services of this country and the diplomatic efforts of the United States to gain special recognition for the illegal Irish in the US. I have come to the conclusion, based on my knowledge of the case, as I am sure have other Senators on this side of the House, that it is an outrage for anybody on the opposite side to suggest, because we do not agree with their contention on this matter, that we have been harangued into it or that we are lackeys for somebody else. That is an outrage——
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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We are all well able to take a jibe from time to time but when it comes to matters of principle, issues we feel strongly about, why is our conscience——
David Norris (Independent)
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There are no principles in what the Senator is doing.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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We want action not idle talk from Government Senators in regard to Ireland's competitiveness challenge. Throughout the country today there is evidence of the closure of industries due to stealth taxes and other charges imposed by this lame Government. It is evident that foreign companies are moving elsewhere.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Yes, I have an important question for the Deputy Leader.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I would support a debate on job cuts and the high costs to businesses of insurance, levies and other taxes imposed by the Government. This is very serious for businesses employing people in Ireland today. I want to see an end to the stealth taxes the Government has imposed in recent years.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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We had direct tax cuts in the last two budgets.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I share the views expressed by the Senator who called for a debate on road safety. However, penalties will not create a situation where people might drive more safely. I have raised in the House previously the possibility, in conjunction with what has been done by the Houses of the Oireachtas, that the insurance companies, which have increased their profits significantly with the PIAB and the MIAB, respond by asking young drivers to install speed restricters so that they cannot drive above a certain speed. If they were to accept those speed restricters they would get significantly reduced insurance costs.
A Member on the Opposition side of the House has vociferously called for the establishment of a select committee of the House. However, Senator Norris said in the House last week that the American state was a criminal regime. That is a very serious and inaccurate statement.
David Norris (Independent)
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May I correct that statement? I said the Administration was criminal.
David Norris (Independent)
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My statement says it broke international and domestic——
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I am glad I was interrupted because the Senator interrupted everybody else. I would have felt badly had I been left out.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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Having found the United States guilty on every occasion how could Senator Norris say he is an objective person to be on any committee?
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I too call for a debate on the 50,000 undocumented Irish working in the United States. The Seanad should support members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs who are travelling to the US to lobby the legislators. I am concerned that an anti-immigrant consensus is gaining momentum in the United States. This Government should do everything possible to ensure that the 50,000 undocumented Irish working in the United States get a chance to come back. Given that summer is approaching there will be many weddings and family occasions. These people, who are Irish citizens, cannot come back during the summer and we have to fight for them.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I support my colleague, Senator Leyden. I am not calling for a debate on the Garda Síochána Act which is now in place. However, I invite the Deputy Leader to ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, to meet with the Garda authorities and ascertain their concerns with a view to finding a positive outcome.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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When discussing the Garda Síochána Bill, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said he would come back to the House and outline his proposals in regard to the regulations for the Garda reserve force. This is an opportune time for the Minister to come back to the House and outline those proposals in order that we could debate them.
The position regarding An Bord Pleanála also presents an opportune time for a resumed debate on planning.
Members from both sides of the House have spoken about recent decisions by An Bord Pleanála. The Government has recently decided to give An Bord Pleanála even greater powers through the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill. When will this Bill come before the House?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I call the Leader to reply. We have exceeded the allocated time by five minutes and I know I am disappointing several Senators.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Several Members are disappointed but I cannot accommodate them.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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One is tempted to say the latest intervention from Senator Norris indicates his desire to be heard is only matched by his desire not to hear others.
David Norris (Independent)
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As somebody of inordinate sensitivity, I ask to be protected from that unwarranted slur. I was only supporting the Cathaoirleach in the proper application of the rules of the House. The Senator's response is a disgrace——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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This House used to take great pride in orderly debate. What is happening today?
David Norris (Independent)
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I share the Cathaoirleach's concern.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We must think of the decorum of the House. The Deputy Leader to reply, without interruption.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is back on the blue tablets.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I could not hear Senator Norris — he was shouting.
David Norris (Independent)
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I could repeat the dose any time the Senator likes.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Let us come back to the Order of Business.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I apologise to the Cathaoirleach. Senator Brian Hayes, the Leader of the Opposition, and Senator O'Toole raised the matter of allowing non-national recruits to the Garda Síochána to be granted citizenship when appointed to the force. I agreed with Senator Brian Hayes when he first raised this issue and I have made the views expressed known to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I cannot say what the outcome of talks on this proposal would be, but there is general recognition that it is a good idea. There have been requests for the Minister to come to the House to address this and other matters and perhaps we could invite him to respond. I am not sure about using a resolution to allow non-national recruits to the Garda Síochána to be granted citizenship but if it could be agreed, it would be a good way to approach the matter. The Minister has always shown himself to be amenable to coming to the House to debate this and other matters in great detail.
Guidelines have been prepared on the Garda reserve force, which was raised by Senators Brian Hayes, Leyden, Mansergh, Glynn, Feeney and Cummins. I am sure the Minister will be amenable to coming to the House to speak about it and listen to what Senators have to say. I agree with Senator Brian Hayes that the Garda is responsible for upholding the law and the will of the Oireachtas. I am confident it will do so, as it has always done. Senator Cummins referred to the Minister's commitment to return to the House to outline his proposals on this matter. If he made that commitment, I am sure he will honour it.
Having listened to the debate on the Garda Síochána legislation, I noted Members of all parties were certainly in favour of the reserve force, although there were one or two exceptions. There were questions on training and how the force would be arranged.
Senators Brian Hayes, O'Toole and Norris raised the issue of rendition. Senator Norris proposed an amendment to the Order of Business to the effect that we should take No. 26, motion 25 today. Senators O'Meara, Ormonde, Quinn, Dooley and Hanafin also spoke about this matter.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy Leader, without interruption.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I apologise to Senator Ryan — he did speak about it. It is a matter on which the House decides, not me, but I can outline my view on it. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs is the appropriate forum in which to raise such issues. The issue might not get the same publicity it would get on the floor of the House——
David Norris (Independent)
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I have done what the Senator is suggesting already. I have referred our motion through the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Nevertheless, the committee is the correct place to debate the issue fully and exhaustively in the presence of the Minister — that is my view on the matter. The House can——
David Norris (Independent)
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Will Senator Dardis make a commitment to debate it——
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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The House can decide for itself. If the matter has been turned into a political issue, it has not been turned into one by this side of the House.
David Norris (Independent)
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He was told what to do by the Government.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I call the Deputy Leader, Senator Dardis, to reply to the Order of Business and to ignore interruptions.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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That brings us very neatly to the matter of free speech in a democracy, which was raised by Senators O'Toole, Ryan and Mansergh. I agree with Senator Mansergh. This person is an idiot, but he is a dangerous idiot. If another country has put laws in place because it is determined to ensure there is no recurrence of fascism or Nazism, we should support its actions. While I would not like the same laws to be introduced here, I believe that democracy needs to be protected from people who foment the serious undermining of legitimate and democratic governments.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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That was the discussion I asked for. I did not pass judgment on what they did. I said that we should have a discussion on it.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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There are too many interruptions during the reply to the Order of Business.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I have no problem with the revision of history, but this person was being used by Nazis.
Senators Ryan, Finucane, Ormonde, Hanafin and others referred to road safety. I know that Senator Ryan has repeatedly raised some issues relating to trucks. Anyone who travels on dual carriageways in rainy weather is quite frightened by the speed of large trucks. There was a serious accident on the Naas dual carriageway yesterday morning. While I accept Senator Ryan's point about utterances on personal responsibility, that is a relevant matter. The issues of law enforcement, road standards and vehicle conditions also need to be considered. I heard this morning that if one wishes to get a driving licence in Australia, one has to get third party insurance. That seems to be a good way of ensuring that people are insured when they go on the roads. We should return to this matter, which we have debated in the past.
Senators MacSharry, Cox, O'Meara, Quinn, Mooney, John Paul Phelan and Bannon spoke about competitiveness. We should thank God that people are now able to get good wages.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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We should be pleased that they are paid well for working in good conditions. There are difficulties in manufacturing and agriculture, but they are the only two sectors in which the numbers of employees have decreased. There were record levels of job creation in 2005. Senator Quinn mentioned high added value, which is central to this debate. We have to change. There will be more job losses if we try to stay where we are. It is something we should discuss.
Senators MacSharry and Coonan raised the issue of planning. Such matters can be considered during the debate on the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006.
Senators McHugh and Glynn highlighted the National Youth Council of Ireland's report on the stereotyping of young people. It was ever thus. Older people over the generations, for as long as we can remember, have had a view on younger people and younger people have had a view on older people. I note that the report contains some concrete proposals to deal with the issue. It is something that the House could usefully examine.
Senator Cox called for a debate on special needs education. We will see if that can be arranged. She also spoke about Great Southern Hotels. I understand that the Leader is endeavouring to organise a debate on that matter in the House at the earliest possible opportunity.
The issues of rendition and flights can be dealt with by organising a debate on the floor of the House after the reports have been examined and we have seen the Council of Europe's response. We can have a debate then.
David Norris (Independent)
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The Acting Leader is great at closing the door after the horse has bolted.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I strongly support what Senators Mansergh, Mooney and John Paul Phelan have said about the manner in which a very committed and active Green Party councillor was targeted. It is regrettable that something like this happened. The House is supporting her efforts to resist the type of people who conduct themselves in this manner.
Senator Ulick Burke referred to rent increases. This evening Private Members' debate on local government will give Senators an opportunity to debate such matters.
Senator Glynn called for a debate on diabetes. I will see whether the Tánaiste can come to the House to participate in a debate on that subject.
Senator John Paul Phelan raised the issue of avian flu. I understand that a committee chaired by Professor Michael Monaghan, who is an expert in this area, is meeting today to discuss the matter. If the manner in which it managed the foot and mouth disease crisis of 2001 is anything to go by, I am confident that the Department of Agriculture and Food will be able to deal with this matter. I will make contact with the Department on behalf of the Senator with regard to that issue.
Senator Feighan raised the issue of the undocumented Irish. Senators, among them Senator Mooney, have already expressed their support for measures to deal with this matter. I was very taken by a man's testimony this morning on the radio. He was coming home but his mother died shortly before he arrived in Ireland. I hope we show the same tolerance to people who come to live in this country as we hope the Americans will show to our people.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 26, motion 25, be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
David Norris (Independent)
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It certainly is, especially in light of Senator Dardis's remark that we should only discuss this after others have published reports on the matter. He could not have proved the irrelevance of this House more.
The Dail Divided:
For the motion: 18 (James Bannon, Paul Bradford, Fergal Browne, Paddy Burke, Ulick Burke, Maurice Cummins, Frank Feighan, Michael Finucane, Brian Hayes, Joe McHugh, David Norris, Kathleen O'Meara, Joe O'Toole, John Paul Phelan, Feargal Quinn, Shane Ross, Brendan Ryan, Joanna Tuffy)
Against the motion: 28 (Cyprian Brady, Michael Brennan, Peter Callanan, Margaret Cox, Brendan Daly, John Dardis, Timmy Dooley, Geraldine Feeney, Liam Fitzgerald, Camillus Glynn, John Gerard Hanafin, Brendan Kenneally, Tony Kett, Michael Kitt, Terry Leyden, Don Lydon, Marc MacSharry, Martin Mansergh, John Minihan, Paschal Mooney, Pat Moylan, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Francis O'Brien, Ann Ormonde, Kieran Phelan, Eamon Scanlon, Jim Walsh, Diarmuid Wilson)
Tellers: Tá, Senators Finucane and Norris; Níl, Senators Minihan and Moylan.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is unparliamentary. Senator Norris should respect the House and himself.