Seanad debates
Thursday, 24 November 2005
Order of Business.
10:35 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is Nos. 1 and 2. No. 1, statements on the Estimates, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m., with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed eight minutes, the Minister being called on to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements; and No. 2, statements on proposed legislation on employment rights, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 4.30 p.m., with contributions from spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed eight minutes, the Minister being called on to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Last night in my area of Dublin south west I attended a service of remembrance for those young people who have lost their lives to the scourge of drugs in that area over the past 20 years. It is harrowing to hear of the numbers of people who have lost their lives and families destroyed as a result of the peddling of drugs.
Yesterday was a very significant day for the Irish criminal justice system. The Supreme Court handed down what I regard as the most significant judgment in a generation concerning organised crime. The court deserves credit for that judgment and it is right that the House reflects upon it. I refer to the case of Gilligan v. Ireland.
It is very important that Irish society and people outside the country know the following - that the laws of this land will come down heavily on those who peddle and traffic drugs into this country; that the laws of this land will protect witnesses who go into the witness protection programme as a means of bringing evidence against such criminals; that those drugs barons who peddle drugs into the country will serve significant periods of time behind bars for their crime; and that the assets accrued as a result of their criminality will be stripped from them and hopefully directed back to the communities upon which they have inflicted such misery for the past 20 years.
It is a great day for Irish justice and for this House which passed laws to ensure that this action could be taken against these individuals. These are the same individuals who do not recognise Irish law and who laugh at it but yesterday justice ruled against them. The message has gone out that they will be tackled and taken down.
Yesterday was also a good day for the Irish justice system in the case of Sr. Bríd Smith, a brave woman who took on the arrogance of some elements of the service and catering sector in the form of a ridiculous publican who some years ago refused to allow a person who was visually impaired into his premises. I congratulate her on her stand and the equality legislation passed in this House.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is important the House recognises and acknowledges the point raised by Senator Brian Hayes. It is the second issue of its kind in a week. A week ago Ryanair finally conceded that blind people travelling with carers on aeroplanes did not have to make any special arrangements and now the case yesterday has been won.
I also note a matter with which I would ask the Leader to take issue. Yesterday, I wrote to the Minister for Finance on another issue regarding blind people, namely, that such people, obviously by the nature of their disability, are not able to drive does not mean that they cannot own or need cars. There is a need for recognition in the budget and tax laws for blind persons' carers, who may be their drivers. Such carers need to be recognised in a tax efficient manner in order to give a break to blind persons who need cars and who must buy them. They should receive support in this manner. It is not difficult to do and it is easy to police.
Not that many people are involved but the issue is as important as a blind person being able to take his or her guide dog onto a premises. I would ask, in other words, that a blind person who owns a car, which is driven by a carer, would be able to claim back tax in the normal way for people with a disability. Blind people are not included in the relevant driving scheme for people with disabilities because, obviously, years ago somebody thought blind people would never drive. Of course they cannot drive but they have drivers, own cars and require our support in that area.
We need to recognise and congratulate the brave civil servant who stood up to her Minister of State on the issue of the——
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I am sorry. This has nothing to do with the Minister of State; this is a bigger issue.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole, we are not discussing an official.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I grew up in an environment where to me the essence of a great civil servant was one whose Minister did not know what his or her politics were. I am not referring to this case. I am a member of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, as is Senator Mansergh. The Senator will confirm that the commission regularly comes across situations where issues need to be explained to the parties and the best people to do so might be staff of the House. We dare not send staff of the Houses to address political groups because it would be crossing a line. Similarly, it is important that we as politicians recognise and understand that there are strict rules which people who work closely with Ministers, the Leader and such like must observe. This is not about the Minister of State, Deputy Callely. He is just the person in the middle of it on this occasion. Who is surprised? I am talking about the civil servant.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I accept that, a Chathaoirligh. I promise I will put the question, not to you or to the House, but to the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, when I see him.
The issue is that we protect the division between ourselves and the Legislature, as we regularly do in this House. There is also a division between ourselves and the Civil Service. The Civil Service has a job to do. It serves our needs and the needs of the people in a particularly special way. Civil servants are in the middle and they need to stay in the middle. We need to respect that and ensure we endorse the position that the civil servant concerned has taken on this occasion. I will not have a go at the Minister of State until I see him in person.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am happy to agree with Senator Brian Hayes on the issue of the brave lady who perhaps sorted out, once and for all, the position of people with guide dogs.
However, as somebody who lives a long way from Dublin I am particularly disturbed by the proposal that seems to have emanated from Dublin City Council that the sort of identification for drivers with disabilities which the rest of the country recognises will not be recognised in Dublin.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It is unfair to drivers in Dublin. It will make it impossible for drivers with disabilities outside Dublin to come into the city. They will have to pay €100, if these bureaucrats get their way, for the privilege of a separate recognition.
The council has decided that the standard blue permit is being abused. I heard no evidence of this. The person I heard on the radio stated that all an individual needs to do is get his or her GP to confirm the matter. What does one expect somebody with a disability to do? The council was going to look for independent medical evaluation of people.
This approach flies in the face of everything this House, the other House and the political system have learned about people with disabilities. I do not know why Dublin City Council did this. If it was exclusively affecting Dublin, I would leave it to Dublin. However, it is an issue that will impinge particularly on drivers with disabilities from outside Dublin. It needs to be stopped now. It needs Government action to make clear that identifying which drivers have a disability is a matter for primary legislation, not for some daft by-law introduced by Dublin City Council.
I ask for a debate on the report of the National Competitiveness Council because what people missed in it was the fact that there were two dissenters, both of whom were trade union representatives. The fundamental dissent was that what was meant to be objective advice to the Government was, in my view, a collection of the ideologies of the individuals.
The real question is how other small countries in Europe are so much more successful, in terms of competitiveness, than Ireland. There are six small countries within the European Union which are reckoned to be more competitive, with Finland being the most competitive in the world. A real national competitiveness council would be telling us why Finland is better than us, not producing daft, politically unsustainable proposals about property taxes, etc. That is what we want to know. If the National Competitiveness Council cannot do better than that report, then the Government should consider getting rid of it completely because it serves no purpose and is probably very expensive.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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As one of only two people in this House who has experience of dealing with the public service and private secretaries, I understand it was a Dublin Chamber of Commerce function and was attended by all political parties.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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On a point of order, a Chathaoirligh, you made a ruling which I observed.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole spoke about the Minister of State, Deputy Callely.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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If one wants to discuss the incident, I absolutely disagree with the point that has just been made.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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But if we want to talk about the issue, that is an incorrect presentation.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden, the matter is not relevant to today's Order of Business.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Senator Daly was also a Minister. Therefore, there are three former Ministers in the House.
Paul BradfordRory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden, please address the Chair. The matter you are raising is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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At this point in time, I said. It was an unfair attack on Deputy Callely in the circumstances.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I rose to debate a more important issue.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, I am entitled to make a point about another issue.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden, please resume your seat.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh, I wish to raise an important issue in this House——
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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——not about what Senator O'Toole stated, but you are being grossly unfair to me.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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You are being grossly unfair to me.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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You will withdraw that remark. Please withdraw that remark.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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You are not unfair to me so. You are very fair to me.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I want to raise an issue, a Chathaoirligh.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Already this year, 353 people have been killed on Irish roads. The issue of road safety has been much discussed in this House on the Order of Business. Yesterday, the Taoiseach announced the Government is still considering random breath testing. Six years ago in the road safety programme random breath testing was mentioned by the Taoiseach, as was increasing the number of speed cameras. The Government has failed miserably in both areas.
It is time to take this matter seriously. We all will be aware of the concern about alcohol and drink driving coming up to Christmas. Where gardaí are placed at various points, they are often prevented from taking action unless suspicious that a person is under the influence of drink. I would ask for action to be taken on this issue. If it requires a constitutional amendment, the Government should get on with proposing it. Let us not wait a long time to implement this proposal.
I support what my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, stated on yesterday's judgment which has important implications nationally. It has important implications for the Limerick area. The Garda was correctly praised for the way it has taken on the drugs trade in Limerick.
A person was jailed recently for murdering Mr. Brian Fitzgerald for taking on a drugs gang in the night club in which he was involved. He is prepared to participate in the witness protection programme. In that context, he is prepared to reveal who was involved in this situation. In order to get to grips with crime, the witness protection programme is extremely important. Yesterday's decision has wide-ranging implications.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Today's debate on the Book of Estimates may, among other things, provide an opportunity to discuss the public service. We are fortunate to have an impartial public service with integrity. As a one-time former public servant, I believe public servants should not be pressurised and harassed to cross what they perceive as a political line——
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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——even if there might be doubt or argument about the issue, such as when the venue is neutral and the people invited represent political parties. An important issue of principle is involved. I admire the stand on principle taken. I hope the Ministers involved will be expeditious in finding an alternative post for the person concerned.
David Norris (Independent)
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Yesterday we had an important and balanced debate on the war in Iraq, extraordinary rendition and torture. Will the Leader help the Seanad by pursuing this matter, first, by continuing to monitor the situation, as we did previously, by having rolling debates and, second, by sending the report of yesterday's debate to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern? While the Minister was ably represented in the debate by two Ministers of State, he was not present in the House. It is important that he have a copy of the debate because the House was told he would raise the matter with Condoleezza Rice. A copy of the debate would be a valuable instrument at that meeting.
I would also like a copy of the debate to be sent to the US ambassador. Following yesterday's debate, a television programme on Channel 4 interviewed a victim in this case. An aeroplane which lands regularly at Shannon Airport, of which viewers were shown photographs, was implicated. A Swiss Member of Parliament is establishing a committee to investigate this situation. Denmark has banned the aeroplane, Austrian fighter jets intercepted it and escorted it out of Austrian airspace and Hungary has searched it. We have, as yet, done nothing. There is now a Council of Europe investigation into a particular flight. The registration details of this aeroplane, about which we have complained, its itinerary and the dates of the flights are listed, and Shannon Airport is included in that naming process.
For the first time, this aeroplane, about which we have done nothing, is clearly identified. If the Minister for Foreign Affairs is to raise the matter, it would be important for him to know of the strong feeling on all sides of the House in this regard. The aeroplane is known as the "Guantanamo express". It is a shame that we allow the "Guantanamo express" to pass through our airspace.
Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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We have had debates in the past on the issue of disability, to which Senator O'Toole referred. I would like to follow up on the issue of the disabled drivers' regulations. The Department of Finance has a major role in allowing increased flexibility, in particular with regard to disabled passengers. As Senator O'Toole stated, blind people are not included for the purposes of these benefits. We should have a debate to try to achieve changes to the regulations which would, hopefully, be announced by the Minister for Finance in the budget. If the debate was held soon we might get movement from the Department of Finance on this issue.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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What, if anything, is the Government, more particularly the Department of Agriculture and Food, doing with regard to the nitrates action plan? There is a strong view, with which I concur, that it is neither manageable nor practical in its current format. If we are serious about the pig and poultry industry, on which the nitrates directive would have a devastating impact, we should be seriously negotiating a derogation. There is a strong feeling that the Department of Agriculture and Food is taking a laid back approach to the matter. Will the Leader ensure that proper interest is immediately taken by the Department? The matter is at a serious stage.
Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)
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We recently had a good and reasoned debate on the Ferns Report and the issue of child sexual abuse by priests. I now call for the debate to be extended to cover the wider issue of child sexual abuse. Every day in Ireland, young children are being sexually and physically abused. While I am not sure what we can do in this regard, at the least we should discuss the issue and make proposals.
One of the most important points concerning the case ruled upon yesterday was not the verdict but the fact that the person incarcerated and charged was able to access the Supreme Court and make his case. That is a good sign of a democracy, given that he could not have done so in many parts of the world.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Agriculture and Food has been consistent in her insistence that at least 90% of farmers will be paid the single farm payment before Christmas. I hope that this will be the case but the tentative feedback I have received from different quarters is that only 40% of farmers will be paid before Christmas. I hope this figure is wrong. I ask that inquiries be made through the Leader to the Department of Agriculture and Food to discover the stage at which payments are at present because we must ensure farmers and their families are paid before Christmas.
If the figure of 40% is in some way accurate, we need an emergency debate on the issue because we are dealing with farmers' livelihoods and income for Christmas. Irish farmers bought into the single farm payment. It is an important issue and if the figure of 40% is accurate it should be debated as a matter of priority within the next week.
Peter Callanan (Fianna Fail)
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I am not presuming to answer for the Leader but I am confident that the payments to farmers will be made in unproblematic cases. The nitrates directive is a matter for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is not confident on the second matter.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should have heard the comments of pig and poultry producers yesterday.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator McHugh with regard to the single farm payment. We should ensure that as many farm families as possible receive payments before Christmas. I have heard similar sentiments on the grapevine to those referred to by the Senator.
Will the Leader arrange for a debate on the future of An Bord Pleanála? I ask this in the context of a decision taken by the board last week on the new M9 road between Waterford and Dublin. The inspector of the board made five clear recommendations that the section of road between Gowran and Stoneyford in County Kilkenny should not be built, for a variety or reasons. However, the board backed the building of the road on that route. Such anomalies cannot be allowed to exist. The Leader should arrange a debate on the issue as soon as possible.
11:00 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes, the Leader of the Opposition, told us he attended a poignant service for those who lost their lives to drugs. He welcomed yesterday's judgment of the Supreme Court. We are always quick to decry court judgments but we would all welcome this judgment, although one should not comment on any judgment of the courts. Nonetheless, the lessons from the judgment were very strong and should impact heavily on those who engage in that type of trade.
Senator Hayes was also full of admiration for Sr. Bríd Smith, who took her equality case. It was wonderful, because I am sure it was difficult for her to say that she had gone to a pub, even with her dog. When I saw it on the television I was startled momentarily until I realised she had gone there for coffee. Even if she had gone for something else, what harm? She was great to take the case. I was pleased that the new pub owners said they were not going to engage in further infringements of the Equality Act.
Senator O'Toole, who has had to leave the Chamber, welcomed the decision referred to by Senator Hayes and the fact that the scales had fallen from the eyes of Ryanair as regards people travelling who are visually impaired. I agree with that. He raised an interesting point as regards cars for the disabled. If someone is blind, he or she cannot be licensed to drive a car, but somebody will be driving on his or her behalf. In such cases the driver should be entitled to the disabled driver's allowance.
Senator O'Toole also raised the matter of the particularly brave civil servant, which I do not want to go into as it is right we do not identify such people by name. I fully agree with the demarcation. I have always adhered to this convention in the various Departments in which I have worked throughout my public life and I have never met anyone who wanted it changed.
Senator Ryan raised the fact that Dublin City Council will not recognise the blue form which disabled people put on their cars to enable them to have particular parking spaces. As he rightly says if a disabled person comes to Dublin in his or her car and displays the blue form and the council authorities refuse to recognise it——
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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——the car will be clamped, which will be costly. That should be a matter for either the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or the Department of Transport. I have never seen people abuse the blue form. In Athlone we have these signs for the disabled in shopping centres and anybody I have ever seen emerging from such a car was disabled. Nevertheless, I accept the point raised by the Senator.
Senator Ryan also decried the recent submission by the National Competitiveness Council. I did too. I thought it was lame, wimpy and weak as regards its case for a property tax. We do not want it.
Shane RossMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Nor do we want the return of third level fees. I thank the National Competitiveness Council, but we do not like its submission. It was as if it had to publish something to prove it was at the game, or whatever. It was that type of submission rather than a properly thought out position. It gave no reasons, or at least I could find not them. I am sure, or rather I hope its recommendation will not be acted upon.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator. That is all right.
David Norris (Independent)
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Now the House is definitely reassured. The Government has spoken.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Finucane raised the matter of the 350 people killed on the roads. It is a constitutional issue. The Taoiseach has expressed deep discomfort and annoyance at the length of time it is taking to work through the issues involved. As the Senator says, if there is a need for an amendment to the Constitution, let us get on with it. He says the matter should be treated seriously and he welcomes the Supreme Court judgment.
Senator Mansergh spoke in general measured terms as a former public servant, which provided an interesting context to his views. Senator Norris mentioned the important debate last night. I very much regret I was not back from the midlands in time to participate. I intend to read the Official Report, however. I had not seen the Channel 4 programme to which he referred. It appears that if a particular date, flight identity number, etc., is in the public domain, there is no excuse for not moving on it. The Senator asked me to continue to monitor this issue as regards the "Guantanamo express" and I will do so.
David Norris (Independent)
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Will the Leader send the report to the Minister and to the US ambassador?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I will arrange for that to be done.
Senator Kitt referred to the disabled drivers' regulations. As he knows, the Department of Finance deals with that area. In this regard I have come across other anomalies apart from the matter raised by Senator O'Toole. It must be a limb that is disabled, for example. Perhaps if the Cathaoirleach would speak to Senator Kitt today, he could raise that matter.
Senator Coghlan said the nitrates action plan was not manageable in its current form and was at a critical stage. It is a matter for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, not the Department of Agriculture and Food.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Department of Agriculture and Food has an active interest, however.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Lydon wants a general debate about children who are sexually abused. We had three separate sessions on this, albeit as regards the Ferns Report. I agree with the Senator when he said it was a great sign of democracy that somebody like Mr. Gilligan could bring his case to the Supreme Court. We should be glad about that and the Senator is right to draw attention to it.
Senator McHugh spoke about the single farm payment. I do not know where this red herring is being raised and I welcome what Senator Callanan said.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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All the information we have to date indicates that the majority of the single payments will be made before Christmas, but we will submit a query on this.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Callanan, the voice of authority on agricultural matters, said that the single payments would be made before Christmas and that the nitrates directive——
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I was delighted with that announcement.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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——is a matter for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
Senator Phelan wants a debate on An Bord Pleanála. I do not think we can have a debate on bodies such as that because it is quasi-judicial.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think so. I would not be in favour of it.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Planning is a matter for An Bord Pleanála.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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It was on planning in general, which could embrace An Bord Pleanála.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I was even going to telephone the relevant radio programme during the week on the Leader's behalf.