Seanad debates
Wednesday, 9 November 2005
Order of Business.
2:30 pm
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, the Registration of Wills Bill 2005 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business until 5 p.m., the proposer of the Bill and spokespersons have 15 minutes and other Senators ten minutes; and No. 17, motion 24, to be taken from 5 p.m. until 7 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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As we move this week towards Armistice Day, does the Leader agree that this House support a unanimous motion in the name of the leaders and Members of this House on the case being made by the Shot at Dawn Campaign? This is a group of over 300 families in Britain and Ireland campaigning for a pardon from the British Government for their loved ones who were disgracefully executed for alleged military offences in the First World War. The group involves 26 Irish men, Catholics, Protestants, Unionists and Nationalists, from Northern and Southern Ireland.
The Irish Government has recently been supportive of the Shot at Dawn Campaign, giving an excellent dossier to the British Government arguing for pardons and clemency. This would be an act of reconciliation to people on this island and the over 270 people in England, Scotland and Wales who were executed in such an appalling way. We should remember these people who gave their lives in appalling circumstances in the First World War.
I ask the Leader to meet with me and other leaders after the Order of Business to agree a wording that could be put unanimously on the order of the House tomorrow. The campaigners will then know this House fully endorses their work and will ensure that a Labour Government will deliver on this issue. The notion that a Labour Government would not grant a pardon to over 300 people who have been executed in this way is astonishing.
The House should support this campaign and I intend to raise the matter with the Northern Secretary at the next meeting of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body. Senator Mooney also has a question on the matter. On a cross-party basis we should continue to put pressure on the British Government and I ask the support of everybody in the House.
On tomorrow's Order of Business, there is considerable interest from all colleagues to speak on the Ferns debate. Does the Leader agree that this should be an open-ended debate for the next number of weeks? The time tomorrow is approximately two and a half to three hours and there may not be an opportunity for everybody to participate.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Perhaps it is not appropriate for me to raise it on today's Order of Business.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I have raised that matter with the Leader and I agree the debate will require more time if possible. Senator Norris has raised the issue of the Shot at Dawn Campaign several times and will have something to say on it today. It is worthwhile to remind ourselves of the First World War. At the weekend, I heard the story of the last surviving British soldier who played football between the trenches with his German counterparts. He still carries a cigarette box he received as a gift from one of the Germans against whom he was once more engaged in battle the following day. That was not an official ceasefire but something the soldiers on both sides undertook against orders. It corresponds to the point made by Senator Brian Hayes in that these soldiers were acting on conscience. Such people were not cowards and received the support of many, including Thomas Kettle, the Irish intellectual, writer and poet. Many recent books, including Sebastian Barry's A Long, Long Way, nominated for the Man Booker prize this year, and those of Sebastian Faulks deal with the First World War. We must remember and acknowledge what was done in our name.
Some ten years ago, the then Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, came to this House and proposed a Bill to create a national monument of na Blascaoid — An Blascaod Mór, go díreach. Idir an dá linn, bhí deacrachtaí ann, but it did not become a national monument because there was a challenge in the courts. Yesterday, however, I was taken aback to discover that a question answered in the other House indicates that the Government has no plan to declare the Blasket Islands a monument. Notwithstanding that the relevant legislation has been struck down, this seems to reflect a major turnabout in Government policy.
In this regard, I would appreciate a discussion with the Office of Public Works about developments on the islands. According to information imparted yesterday in the Dáil, it seems the OPW plans to buy the land, thus bringing it into State ownership. What is the intention if it is not to become a national park? There are certain monuments there, including the home of Peig Sayers, which must be considered. Will the Leader clarify the situation regarding the new report on the management of the island? I understand it will be presented to the Government but has not been agreed to by all the stakeholders and landholders on the island. I call for a discussion with the OPW on the Government's proposals for An Blascaod Mór as seo amach.
Joanna Tuffy (Labour)
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I draw the Leader's attention to a nationwide poll on child care featured in today's Irish Examiner. As the mother of a young child, whose partner minds our child in the home, I identify strongly with this issue. The poll finds that in a high percentage of families, one parent cares for children in the home. Another significant finding is that four out of ten couples with two children believe the birth of a third child would necessitate the withdrawal of one parent from the workforce. Such parents must weigh up the costs of child care before making a decision on having any more children. The survey also finds that approximately two thirds of women leave full-time employment once they start a family. Some 20% of child care is carried out by family members, most often grandparents, in the home.
Of particular significance is the finding that 84% of parents surveyed believe the Government has failed to address the issue of child care. This poll endorses the policy document launched recently by my colleague, Senator O'Meara, which promotes the idea of choice and support for parents, irrespective of the choices they make in terms of care arrangements. I call for a debate on this issue, notwithstanding the awareness that, in approximately 18 months' time, the Government will be in power for ten years. It has done nothing to address this issue.
Joanna Tuffy (Labour)
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What is needed is the election of a new Government.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We will not be able to help Senator Tuffy in that respect.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I join my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, in calling for all-party support for the Shot at Dawn Campaign. The campaign deserves our support, particularly when one studies the cases that have been put forward. People were shot for wandering from trenches, suffering either from shell shock or post-traumatic stress disorder. We are aware of these disorders now but they were unknown at the time. In one of the cases, the judgment of the military tribunal was that the soldier had become a worthless soldier. Nobody asked why he had been wandering after spending six months in the trenches and being subject to bombardment, mortar attacks, gunfire and so forth. There was no understanding. Not only were these individuals sentenced to be shot by their own forces but their families were sentenced to carry a stigma. This is a worthy campaign and I hope other parties will support the call by Senator Hayes for a cross-party front in the House in supporting it.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Fifteen Members have indicated that they wish to speak so I ask them to be brief.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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There was a most disturbing episode last weekend when 13 Latvians were left stranded on an island off Skerries. It was disgraceful to leave them on that island, particularly in those terrible weather conditions. They had no shelter. Thankfully, they were able to contact the mainland by mobile telephone.
Recently, there has been much discussion about Irish Ferries and a race to the bottom as a result of the decision to employ east European workers on the ferries. This exposes the fact that there is exploitation of these immigrants in this country. Most of these people do not speak English. At least when the Irish emigrated in the past, they went to the United States and the UK where they had the benefit of speaking English. These immigrants do not and they are ripe for exploitation.
As I have said previously in the House, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment must strengthen its inspectorate. It is pathetic when one considers the number of immigrants that have come to this country. In 2002, there were over 8,300 inspections. In 2004, there were 5,300. That is a decrease of approximately 3,000 in the two years when there was a massive explosion in the number of immigrants.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I am. If this country is to project the right image internationally, this type of situation should not emerge. It behoves us to respect these immigrants. They are making a vital contribution to our economy. The inspectorate must be strengthened so it can monitor this area.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator Finucane's call for a debate on the exploitation of workers in Ireland. The latest incident involving the Latvian workers is a disgrace. Another instance recently came to my attention. An employer engaged a recruitment company to recruit a temporary member of staff. The employer was offering a wage of €13 per hour but the recruitment company only passed on €7 per hour of that wage. That is a disgrace.
If that is still happening in this day and age and in this country, it is an example of a bad memory on our part when one considers that the Irish who emigrated were looked after and treated well. If we do not deal with this situation decisively, we should look — and God forbid that it happen here — to the hatred and resentment that have been incited to cause the current rioting and unrest in France. We must deal with these issues decisively and immediately and treat these people with the respect and fairness with which we and our ancestors were treated in America, England and elsewhere.
David Norris (Independent)
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It appears we will be allowed to continue the debate on the Ferns report. I welcome that decision. If we are serious about this issue, there is something we can do. I refer to No. 23 on the Order Paper, a motion put down by me and most of my Independent colleagues. It requests the Government to re-examine the exemption given to the churches from the operation of the equality legislation. It is fine to bleat about how heartbroken we are and say that the church is not above the law. However, it most definitely is above the law. In recent years, both Houses have made it so. We can change this. This motion simply requests the Government to re-examine the exemption of the churches from equality legislation. It is not tolerable that an organisation which protected serial child abusers is given the right to fire perfectly decent, respectable and good teachers on the sole basis of their sexual orientation. It is a reproach to the House's integrity if we do not take up this matter. I ask that we combine the statements on the Ferns report with the taking of this motion. The motion does not bind the Government to any action. If we are serious about the church not being above the law and other citizens, the House must request the Government to simply re-examine the issue in light of the Ferns report.
I welcome the comments of Senator Brian Hayes on the Shot at Dawn Campaign. I have raised the matter several times too. The cases are absolutely tragic. A disproportionate number of Irish people, serving in the British army during the First World War were shot for desertion, cowardice or whatever it was. I have read many of the cases. One, in particular, concerned a young lad who was shot peremptorily because, after having been through the thick of battle, he refused to put on a muddied, sopping wet hat which could have given him pneumonia. It was inhumane. They shot the Irish pour encourager les autres. It was a barbarous and awful matter. The New Zealand Government got what it wanted and it has recognised those executed by awarding them medals posthumously. I strongly support this campaign.
When will the ending of the groceries order be enforced? There is something fishy about the very phrase "below-cost selling". What businessman actually sells below cost? Several charities have claimed it will do damage to the most vulnerable elements in society. We already have two chain stores controlling over 50% of the market.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is Senator Norris seeking a debate on the groceries order?
David Norris (Independent)
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Yes, but I want to explain why. Yesterday, on the wireless, Mr. Ben Dunne said we need to be careful about the removal of the groceries order, as the chain stores will use it to get gullible people into their stores. The Government is apparently committed to removing the order. However, the regulations must be monitored. If the chain stores are allowed, without being told,——
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader understands the point Senator Norris is making.
David Norris (Independent)
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I do not know how she can because I have not made it yet. However, I know she is a wonderfully perceptive and intelligent woman.
David Norris (Independent)
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Ben Dunne's point is that if stores are allowed to sell below cost, they must be made do so for a reasonable period at every branch.
David Norris (Independent)
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Otherwise, they will just use it to draw people into their stores. The House must monitor this situation.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes has raised an important issue with the Shot at Dawn Campaign. It would be right and significant for the House to demonstrate united support for the campaign. In recent years, we have seen, particularly through satellite television, the archival film material from the battlefront of the First World War. We have all come to realise how horrific it was.
I have read some of the case histories of those soldiers shot at dawn. Many were not for serious infringement of rules. Some of these points have been made by Senator Minihan and others. Very often the cases concerned simple disorientation of an individual for 24 or 48 hours. The significance of Senator Brian Hayes's comments is that it would not only be human and right, but symbolic for the House to show what war does to ordinary people. I read some comments subsequent to the executions made by officers, many of whom were not happy with what was happening. We owe it to ourselves and the families and memories of those who were wrongly executed to ensure such barbarity will never again happen.
Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I support the comments by Senators Finucane and MacSharry on migrant workers. This is part of a broader debate on future labour trends needed in the House. My colleagues on the Joint Committee on European Affairs are beginning a major study of the topic. In recent days the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, has pointed out that the economy will need 60,000 workers in the coming years just to keep ticking over. Others say we will need 40,000 each year for the next 20 years.
How we treat and cope with the huge number of migrant workers needed for the economy will become a major issue which requires serious debate. We must ensure exploitation is investigated, dealt with and driven out and that we put in place social, economic and community structures to ensure we can deal with the social changes brought about by large numbers of people coming to this country in the next ten to 15 years. The Ireland of 2016 will be very different from the Ireland of today and we must prepare for change now.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I support the proposal by Senator Brian Hayes regarding the Shot at Dawn Campaign. Even in the context of that time the sentences were shameful. I have a personal interest in this matter as a distant relative of the Mansergh family was involved in one such tribunal. Such a fact only redoubles my support for the campaign.
We often criticise newspapers and the media in general in this House but I warmly compliment RTE on its interesting and balanced "Land of Gold" documentary last night on the Lansdowne estate in Kenmare, which was a model of its genre. It gave vent to people's legitimately strong feelings but also gave credit where credit was due.
It may not be welcome to some colleagues in the House but the modification of the equality directive was sought under the last Government by all the churches together. The Ferns report has no relevance to that.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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I add my voice to calls for a debate on the situation pertaining to immigrant workers. Senator Bradford is correct that the Joint Committee on European Affairs is about to engage in research into the subject. Along with others I am concerned that the Latvian workers who were abandoned while picking periwinkles were not apparently willing to go to the Garda. There are probably more people here, quite legally because they are from within the EU, who do not understand that they can make complaints. They might not be eligible for social welfare payments but they can certainly make complaints. This House needs to make sure that everyone knows what their rights are.
3:00 pm
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader if she will consider a debate on the harmful and often fatal effects that paracetamol can have. In recent years great strides have been made by allowing only one packet of, for example Panadol, to be sold over the counter but we must do more.
It came to my attention over the summer that people take paracetamol without realising the effect it has on the liver, in particular. This can be a silent and deadly killer. Medical personnel from accident and emergency departments have told me many young people who present themselves have overdosed on paracetamol without realising. Once damage is done to the liver there is no going back.
It is time that Members of the Oireachtas sought to educate people on the matter. It may be an interesting topic to debate at some stage. We can do more than restricting sales to one packet at a time, and we could label the medicine with a warning, for example. We shout about the harmful effects of cigarettes and alcohol on our lives and bodies, but we can see these effects. We do not see the harmful effects that paracetamol can have.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator O'Toole in calling for a debate on the issue of the Great Blasket Island. There was a debate in this House on this issue before many of the current Members were here, when Mr. Haughey was Taoiseach. It was a worthwhile debate but much has happened since then. We do not wish the matter to descend into a mess.
The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, yesterday announced the abolition of the groceries order with great fanfare. He did not reveal proposals to amend the Competition Act 2002. SenatorNorris's comments on the matter were correct, and the vagueness of the Minister's proposals is a cause for concern. While he indicated that he would strengthen the Competition Act 2002 to outlaw "hello money", resale price maintenance and the imposition of unfair discrimination, he has not indicated if he will strengthen the Act to outlaw predatory pricing. The legislation will not be of much use without this measure.
It is often said that the devil is in the detail. In this case the devil is in the absence of the detail.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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We do not want to face the appalling vista of less Irish food being produced, fewer local shops and the duping of consumers by gimmicks. We should have the debate which has been called for already.
I will see the Leas-Chathaoirleach in his office with regard to the technological discrimination perpetuated against the people in the Black Valley in Killarney, County Kerry.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I concur with the calls for a debate on the implications of recent events pertaining to labour law, particularly the serious consequences which may have occurred with periwinkle pickers. This underscores a more serious problem of how immigrant workers can be integrated into the system while ensuring the competitiveness of industry on one hand, and fair treatment for both immigrant and domestic workers on the other hand.
With regard to the working world, there are instances of both overregulation and underregulation. One sector in which there is underregulation is the legal profession. Approximately three or four weeks ago a debate was advocated on this matter because of certain controversies. The time has come to ensure that self-regulation in these areas is discontinued and that independent regulation comes about. I ask the Leader to consider having a debate on the regulation of solicitors and barristers. The Law Library and the Law Society should not be the determining bodies on progress in the matter. Admission to the professions, which in turn has adverse consequences for competition, is controlled.
There is also a need for the Judiciary to be accountable to an independent body. Other countries have established independent commissions to deal with the conduct of their judiciaries and other issues of major public concern, such as consistency of sentencing. The time has come for us to adopt best practice in these areas.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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During the week, a statement issued from a PD source in County Galway indicated that a directive, issued from the Department of the Taoiseach, requested the sale of six acres of land adjoining Grove Hospital in Tuam, two acres of land adjoining the workhouse in Portumna and 32 acres adjoining St. Bridget's Hospital in Ballinasloe. The Government gave undertakings that the Bon Secours Hospital would be redeveloped and state-of-the-art facilities provided for north-east County Galway, for example, adjacent to the psychiatric services hospital in Ballinasloe. If these lands were to be sold, it would deprive a very active committee in Portumna of the opportunity of continuing its work in developing sheltered housing.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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He is seeking an Adjournment debate.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader seek clarification from the Taoiseach's office or the Minister's office on whether this is true? Is it particular to east County Galway or is it national? This serious situation relates to the provision of health services in County Galway, particularly in the east.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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This is more appropriate to the Adjournment.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader facilitate the clarification of this issue?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Dr. John Barton will report on the matter.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach would not have had that information.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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It was from a Progressive Democrats source. A local councillor made a statement that——
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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This issue is more appropriate to the Adjournment.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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We will address this issue when we receive further information from the Leader. In its programme for Government, the Government promised that no child under nine years of age would be taught in a class of more than 20 pupils after 2007. We learned from a statement made by the INTO today that class sizes have increased at primary level, particularly in this category in north Dublin and the Minister for Education and Science's own constituency, which has experienced an increase of 34%. Will the Leader arrange for the Minister to address the House and explain why there is regression and the promise given by the Government in 2002 is not being honoured?
Cyprian Brady
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I agree with my colleagues who have raised the issue of the Shot at Dawn Campaign. It would be appropriate for the House to pass a joint motion, as no political issue is at stake. I am glad that Members on all side seem to be of the one opinion and I hope the motion is passed as soon as possible.
Will the Leader arrange a debate on the World Trade Organisation talks? Thousands of farmers were on Dublin's streets yesterday to protest the scandalous approach of Commissioner Peter Mandelson in advance of the talks. It would be important for Senators on all sides to have the opportunity to express their views to the relevant member of Government before the discussions are up and running.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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This matter was raised and discussed.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader arrange a debate on the Department of Health and Children's report last week on the audit of cleanliness of acute hospitals, which revealed startling statistics concerning a number of hospitals throughout the country and levels of uncleanliness that were shocking? It would be appropriate for the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children to discuss this matter with the House as soon as possible.
Does the Leader agree that, at a time when the Government is being criticised for cutting back on spending on road safety, it was a disgrace that the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely, plastered his picture in colour on yesterday's daily newspapers to tell us what a fantastic job he has been doing?
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear. He has his Clare Street initiative.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate on this matter?
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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It was a scandalous misuse of public funds and completely inappropriate at a time when the Government faces justified criticism for its lack of funding for road safety. It must ensure this does not happen again.
Tom Morrissey (Progressive Democrats)
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Under Sustaining Progress and affordable housing, the Government has a laudable objective of providing 10,000 new houses.
Maurice CumminsTom Morrissey (Progressive Democrats)
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My attention was drawn to an advertisement in the daily newspapers last week calling for a land development opportunity in Dublin. This was advertised by the group recently established by the Government to provide some of these houses under Sustaining Progress. It asked for lands that were zoned but also not zoned, which drew my attention. It asked for owners of unzoned lands to come forward to become involved in this unique development opportunity. I have two concerns. Is this an acknowledgement that the Part V provisions do not accommodate the thousands of acres of land zoned for housing in Dublin? What implications for forced developments will this have for county councils across Dublin? Developers might come forward to state they made a deal at governmental level under Sustaining Progress for a certain amount of affordable housing units on land not previously zoned, which would force the local authorities to zone that land in the future. I request that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government come to the House to clarify this issue.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I support the calls to invite the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, to the House to update us on what actions she intends to take to improve the hygiene standards in our hospitals. It was rich of her to comment that she was disappointed with the results of the hygiene audit. The same Tánaiste has been in Government for more than eight years and has done absolutely nothing in this area. It proves to us and to the citizens of the State that the Government and Cabinet does not listen to the people. That is a fact.
I wish to discuss another matter.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The Minister has washed her hands of the issue.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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On another issue, many health and environmental officers travel throughout the country investigating publicans and owners of restaurants and small hotels. I know of one person who was visited three times in one day and did not have a case to answer. Last Christmas Day a hotelier was called to twice. If the same rules applied, half of the country's hospitals would be closed.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I support the calls for the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children to come to the House and speak on the hygiene report. However, I remind Senator Bannon that the Minister is not responsible for hygiene.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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Of course I seek a debate on the matter. However, I must also state that a practice has crept in——
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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If Senator Bannon listens he might learn something. I know it will be hard to impart knowledge to him.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Shame on the Government for treating the public as it does.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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We know Senator Bannon is not quick on the uptake.
It is important to remember the hygiene standards that should be met, such as those pertaining to the disposal of excreta which is a nursing duty. Does that occur in every hospital? I believe——
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Glynn support the calls for a debate?
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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Yes I do. I wish to make the point that is it extremely important that hygiene practices traditionally attributed to professionals are perhaps no longer carried out by professionals. I do not offer that as an excuse but we must remember that the disposal of certain substances is an important way in ensuring that hygiene standards are sustained and maintained.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The buck stops with the Minister and the Government.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, is not responsible for cleaning hospitals. Other people should do that.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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On numerous occasions I highlighted the fact that 50,000 young Irishmen died in the Great War and it is only recently that we have begun to commemorate and remember them. They were volunteers and not conscripted. We should unite to ensure a blanket pardon for those men who were executed. An Irish soldier was ten times more likely to be executed than a New Zealand soldier in a contingent of the same size. The British Government and people showed a bias against the Irish who volunteered. The lower classes were also treated badly. King George pardoned those of the higher ranks because the petitions were signed by people of influence. I can see no reason for the British Government's refusal to accede to this request to pardon innocent Irish and British men who were shot at dawn.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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Last May while receiving treatment in Dublin, my father was told there was not one clean hospital in Dublin. I looked at him in disbelief when he told me this. Unfortunately the results of the hygiene survey published last week proves——
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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——that the consultant who said it was not too far off the mark. It would be opportune for the House to have a debate on the hygiene report. I am very concerned that even though the report was flagged well in advance, 91% of hospitals did not come up to scratch and the audit was a month and a half late. This does not augur well for the future. There seem to be no targets, no sanctions and no issues.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I am sure this issue will form part of the debate.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children should be invited to the House next week to outline her plans. This report is only the beginning. Will regular checks be carried out? The report only examined acute hospitals. Will the audit be extended to all other hospitals?
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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We are debating this matter in the Joint Committee on Health and Children.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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On another matter, I travelled by train from Galway this morning, passing through Athlone which is the Leader's base. It struck me that the land surrounding most train stations is totally derelict and this gives a very bad impression of the nearby towns. I ask for a debate on transport with the Minister for Transport to ascertain if the lands could be sold for affordable housing or else improved. Most towns are involved in the Tidy Towns competition and the train stations are costing them many points every year.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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On a point of information, Senator Browne said there were no Dublin hospitals well up the list, I remind him of St. James's Hospital, the biggest hospital in the country——
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I was quoting somebody who made that statement.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Where does that leave Mallow Hospital? It is a case of "Up Cork" again.
Senator Brian Hayes referred to the imminence of Armistice Day and the Shot at Dawn Campaign proposal. He asked if the leaders of each of the parties could meet outside the House and I am in agreement with him. He suggested we could combine our wishes in that regard and ask the motion be relayed to the British Government, which is the authority to decide on retrospective pardons. It is a very fine idea.
I am pleased to inform the House it was never intended that statements on the Ferns report would conclude tomorrow as it will be ongoing. I hope there will be many contributions to the debate. In this regard Senator O'Toole asked for more time to discuss the Ferns report.
Senator O'Toole also referred to the soldiers in the First World War who created their own ceasefire. This is a poignant incident in that period when the soldiers sang "Silent Night" in their different languages and made friends with one another. I believe the ceasefire extended from Christmas Eve to New Year's Eve and may have been spasmodic. It is very poignantly remembered in the poetry of that period.
Senator O'Toole asked whether the Blasket Islands are regarded as a national monument. The legislation was overturned. He asked that the House seek a report from the Office of Public Works.
Senator Tuffy asked for a debate on child care. I must dispute that nothing was done. In 1997 the Government inherited a very parsimonious situation with regard to child benefit but it has increased in leaps and bounds since then. I agree with the Senator that much more needs to be done regarding the provision of child care facilities. A plethora or reports, advices and position papers have been produced. It will be a case of what to choose. One could become bamboozled but I am confident they will all be taken into account.
Senator Minihan supports Senator Brian Hayes on the Shot at Dawn Campaign.
Senator Finucane raised the exploitation of a group of people who were left on an island while picking periwinkles. I agree with him that the labour inspectorate should be beefed up. It is not sufficient to take the laudable decision to open our borders to anyone from the accession countries if we do nothing to ensure they secure their labour rights.
Senator Norris referred to motion 23, tabled by the Independent Group, which proposes: "That Seanad Éireann, in the light of the Ferns Report, requests the Government to re-examine the exemption of the churches from the operations of equality legislation." It will not be possible to discuss motion 23 during the debate tomorrow because it is a formal motion. While I do not know which Minister will come before the House for the debate, he or she would have to be given guidance on the matter. Nevertheless, I see no reason the matter cannot be raised in the context of the debate.
David Norris (Independent)
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Would it be possible to make time available to take the motion at some point?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We will try to do so when the Ferns report is next scheduled.
The Senator also referred to the groceries order and competition legislation. The reason I knew what point he was about to make was that I heard Mr. Ben Dunne state on radio yesterday that special offers should be made available for defined periods and at all outlets.
Senator Ó Murchú, in referring to the Shot at Dawn Campaign, noted what was done to ordinary people at the time. As conscription was not introduced in Ireland — figuratively speaking, that battle was won — those shot were volunteers. Their executions were sad events and the campaign marks an attempt by the current generation to do address the issue.
Senator Bradford also raised the issue of migrant workers. I am pleased the Joint Committee on European Affairs is compiling a major report on the issue. Senators could feed into the committee's deliberations if the House has a good debate on the issue.
Senator Mansergh indicated his support for the Shot at Dawn Campaign and praised RTE for last night's "Land is Gold" documentary on the Lansdowne estate in Kenmare. He also pointed out, as Senator Norris will be aware, that all the churches requested exemption from the equality legislation.
David Norris (Independent)
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That is the reason I specifically used the word "churches", the plural form, in the motion. I regret that Senator Mansergh does not approve of equality for all citizens.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Both Houses agreed to the exemption.
David Norris (Independent)
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Yes, and it was a disgraceful decision at the time. Look at where it got us.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Feeney referred to damage to internal organs, such as the liver, by overdosing on paracetamol. Senator Coghlan called for a debate on the Great Blasket Island and asked what amendments would be made to the Competition Act. We will endeavour to have the Minister come before the House to discuss the groceries order compendium.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Amending legislation will be necessary.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Jim Walsh raised labour law competitiveness and the need for independent regulation of members of the legal profession, a matter on which I fully agree with him.
Senator MacSharry made a powerful intervention on the issue of immigrants living here, without whom a great deal of work would not be done. It is simply not sufficient to welcome them without providing for their needs, as it has created a major gap. The Senator also raised the spectre of ongoing events in Paris and elsewhere in France, which is experiencing serious problems night after night. The French take pride in the concepts of liberté, egalitéand fraternité, yet the country's immigrants are bunched up in out-of-town apartment blocks. The House should have a debate on this matter.
I have no idea what issue Senator Ulick Burke was referring to and I cannot imagine that any Taoiseach would issue an edict requiring that land be sold in Tuam or elsewhere. The person from whom this story emanated may be an overly ambitious Progressive Democrats hopeful who may have lost the run of himself or herself. I know nothing about it, and I do not propose to go blundering through various offices to find out who said what. I am not a private detective. However, I suggest that an Adjournment matter, as the Leas-Chathaoirleach proposed, might be a good vehicle through which to address the matter. Senator Ulick Burke raised the issue of smaller classes and proposed that the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, attend the House to tell us when that commitment will be realised.
Senator John Paul Phelan agreed with Senator Brian Hayes and others regarding the Shot at Dawn Campaign. He also referred to the World Trade Organisation and Commissioner Mandelson. Many of us have spoken of him, and there is no doubt that he is a loose cannon who simply wants his own way, particularly in that campaign. The Senator also said that we should review the reports on cleanliness and road safety. One cannot condemn any Minister or Minister of State who gets his or her photograph taken. The Opposition was great at it.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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It is placing an advertisement in the daily newspapers. Did Senators see the bus?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Morrissey raised the issue of unzoned land and asked whether there is now a compulsion to rezone it for development in the light of an advertisement he saw regarding the group set up under Sustaining Progress. He also requested that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, attend the House.
Senator Bannon said that the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, should attend the House. She should be commended on getting the report done. If it had not been written, how would we know the degree of cleanliness in the various hospitals? We should not decry her. It was not pleasant to be presented with such a report, but she sought its completion, and now there is a benchmark towards which she will work. We should condemn the state of some of the hospitals and not someone who had a report carried out.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Glynn also raised standards of hygiene. We are all afraid to condemn levels of cleanliness, since it might be our local hospital, which we may not criticise.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Mallow is an old hospital, and it was top of the list in cleanliness terms.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Mallow should be praised, since it has a great record. I heard the lady in charge of the area on the radio the following morning, and she was simply mighty. There is not a fly or speck of dust that would not take to its heels on hearing her approach.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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There are some I wish took to their heels.
Senator Feighan mentioned the 50,000 Irishmen who died in the First World War, a matter that he has raised on more than one symbolic occasion in the House.
Senator Browne raised the hygiene report. I am most upset that he found the land around Athlone railway station derelict. We will have to look into the matter, and I thank the Senator for raising it.