Seanad debates
Wednesday, 2 November 2005
Order of Business.
2:30 pm
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No.1, statements on the quarterly national household survey, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 5 p.m., spokespersons have ten minutes, other Senators have seven minutes and Senators may share time, with the Minister to be called on to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements; and No. 18, motion 24, to be taken at 5 p.m. until 7 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I begin by congratulating the Government on yesterday's re-announcement of a series of projects it promised the people in 1999 and 2001. If ever there was an example of reheated porridge in the Irish political system, it was yesterday's series of announcements. If all these projects were implemented on time and on budget, it would be important for public transport users. However, the reason there is so much scepticism in the country about yesterday's announcements is that the very people who have been part and parcel of this issue for the past nine years have got it so badly wrong when it comes to delivering projects on time and developing a quality, integrated public transport system in this and other cities. That scepticism must be recognised.
Will the Leader organise a debate, perhaps next week or the following, on yesterday's announcement to identify the substance behind it as against the allegation that it is nothing more than electioneering? Having read the document yesterday, I saw no reference to the Clare Street initiative which we debated two weeks ago. However, the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely, will have his day again.
Diarmuid WilsonBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Exactly. It is about traffic calming in Clare Street.
Last week the Taoiseach wrote to the party leaders in the other House concerning a proposal to allow Northern MPs to speak in the Dáil, although we have no jurisdiction in regard to this issue. Will the Leader state on the record whether, to the best of her knowledge, a secret deal has been done between the Taoiseach and the Sinn Féin leadership offering Seanad seats? The process of Seanad reform is important and I recognise it is an issue Senator O'Rourke has championed since becoming Leader. However, it would colour the continued participation of my party in trying to work out a reform process if it thought a commitment was given behind its back to offer Seanad seats to the Northern parties. We must tread very carefully on this issue. Our main objective at this time must be to put the Good Friday Agreement back in place and re-establish the institutions to ensure full confidence in Northern Ireland.
David Norris (Independent)
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I wish to show the independence of the Independents by saying I do not entirely agree with my distinguished colleague, Senator Brian Hayes. I was at the launch of Transport 21 yesterday in Dublin Castle and I found it a most invigorating experience. We had to push hard to get items such as the metro included and this House played an instrumental role. When the five Independents had the balance of power I used the opportunity to amend the Transport (Dublin Light Rail) Act. The Leader, not only as Leader but as Minister for Public Enterprise, was open-minded and clear about the metro. The part she played will be a part of history.
It is remarkable that the Government has the courage to involve itself in this very significant expenditure of â¬34.4 billion. We have the money and now is the time to put it into transport. It is a wise investment. Everything said about the metro suggests that it would be a negative economic indicator not to include it in the plan.
We should continue to monitor the situation regarding the transport plan. I was a little worried talking to some of the senior people after the launch. I said to one of them that the timescale was still quite extended and I asked if it could be shortened. He said the soil mechanics and the geology of Dublin are unique. I have heard this argument until I have become ill from it. I said I would bet him â¬1,000 that no geological structure is found under the streets of Dublin which has not been encountered in one of the thousands of cities throughout the world which have put in such infrastructure.
The other good thing about the plan was that it was not only Dublin-centred. The western rail corridor was included and railways all over the country will be opened up. It is an incremental plan and we should not be begrudging about it. As an Independent, I welcome the plan but we must monitor its implementation to make sure there is no waste. It was a good day's work.
I also wish to raise the Ferns report. I do not wish to appear to gloat, as I do not enjoy the discomfiture of the official church. It is a tragic situation, particularly for the many good, decent, young religious and the faithful. However, if we are serious about addressing the issues raised, we should examine our own record and I will table a motion in this regard. I mentioned last week that respectable, decent people, even including myself, as I was once a teacher, could be fired from a teaching post because the churches, in particular the Roman Catholic Church, were granted exclusions from the operation of equality legislation. If the past few weeks teach us anything, it isââ
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris, without interruption.
David Norris (Independent)
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I made that point but it is particularly dangerous in the case of one church, which has a track record. That is the position I would take and I would be prepared to argue it but not, I hope, in a contentious or nasty way. However, the power that raised the churches above everybody else in our society should be re-examined by Government to see if it is appropriate in this day and age.
I would also like a debate on Middle East issues. The statement by the Iranian President last week was chilling. The Iranians tried to row back on it but the President has reiterated and reinvigorated the statement.
We also need to have a debate on 1916. I may be a dissenting voice in my approach to it but it would be welcome and useful in advance of creating the new festival. We should hear all voices on this important subject.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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We would all want to be careful because, within six months, if Mr. Blair has his way, we could all be arrested if we say something about 1916 in the British jurisdiction, as it may be regarded as a criminal offence of glorifying what the British call terrorism. I would hate to see Senator Norris arrested if he crossed the Border.
There have rarely been moments in a country's history when so much money was proposed to be spent with so little paperwork to back it up. I said to Senator Brian Hayes before proceedings began that the last time I saw so much money and so little paper was when the woman in Limerick won the lottery. A sum of â¬34 billion will be expended. I am an engineer and I expect things to be done properly.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ryan is unique in his profession.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I do not trust this plan. No engineer would stand up and justify it as the basis for spending â¬34 billion. It is a considerable achievement for this Government of wasters to convince the people of Cork that an announcement, which delays the introduction of suburban rail in Cork, is good news. Two years ago, it was announced that suburban rail would be in place by 2007 but now it will not happen until 2008. I was promised five years ago that a motorway would be built between Dublin and Cork by next year but it will not be completed until 2010. The best thing about the Atlantic corridor is the name, although I did not think the Atlantic touched Waterford. The road must reach Waterford for obvious reasons. Timescales or costings have not been provided. As the man said on television last night, we have also been presented with the western rail cul-de-sac, which will terminate at Claremorris. I have great respect for Claremorris but it should not be the terminus for many journeys when building a rail network. Could we have a debate on this plan? Could we also have all the background documentation from the wonderful Department of Finance to establish the costings, rationale and basis for the plan? We do not know how the officials arrived at these figures but we deserve to know.
I seek a debate on the Ferns report. The irony of the dismissal of a teacher in Enniscorthy in the Ferns diocese dawned on me last week because she committed the heinous sin of living with a man who was not her husband and having a baby with him while others carried on for years and years in the most scandalous way. We need to get a handle on this so that we are not diverted into a debate on what the State did wrong. The only thing the State did wrong was to succumb to the pressures of the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church to leave them to do what they told everybody they were better at than the State. We must reassert that no one has the right to demand flexibility in the law of the land.
I may be in a minority in believing from the outset the invasion of Iraq to have been immoral and illegal.
David Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear. The Leader thought so too.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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There is a journalist from RTE embedded in an illegal occupation army, the British force of occupation, giving us soft focus pictures of Irish soldiers working there. RTE has no business taking an editorial position that diminishes or dilutes the fact the war was illegal, is immoral and is disapproved of by 85% of the population of Iraq.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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We should all cautiously welcome the LVF announcement that it is ceasing all activities and hope this is a harbinger for other loyalist organisations to follow suit. Two reports have studied the matter of access to democratic institutions. One was produced by the Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution, chaired by the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Brian Lenihan. The other was by the Seanad reform committee. Both reports were unanimous and I would like to think the spirit of unanimity might continue rather than be used for party political purposes.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mansergh should ask his Government partners.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Taoiseach should have consulted his partners in Government before writing the letter.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the transport announcements made yesterday and we will have an opportunity to debate this matter tomorrow.
I was very surprised to hear Senator Ryan echo a phrase used in a radio interview by someone with a very different political philosophy from his. It is very wrong that the Taoiseach be abused by someone with money, wealth and commercial success in terms that should not be used.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is Senator Mansergh seeking a debate?
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I am seeking a debate and basic respect for the democratic institutions of the State is needed from the most wealthy, successful businessmen. They should remember the Taoiseach has presided over a highly-successful economy that has been in the public service rather than the private service.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Six years ago, in November 1999, the National Development Plan 2000-2006 indicated unprecedented investment in rail and roads. Six years ago, dual carriageways or motorways from Dublin to Galway, Cork, Waterford and Limerick were promised as well as unprecedented development in rail. Rail lines from Navan to Dublin and from Midleton to Cork were also promised. Is the transport announcement not rehashing these issues? The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, displayed notices in Navan stating "Dempsey delivers". Dempsey delivers six years late, in a manner similar to Deputy Parlon in Laois-Offaly in respect of decentralisation.
What has happened to decentralisation? It is a myth in many areas and many of the areas earmarked in the transport plan have been rehashed. The Government has put a jigsaw puzzle together on this occasion.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is Senator Finucane seeking a debate?
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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At the recent Ard-Fheis the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, said everything will be costed in the future. There are no costings in this plan. It is a fairytale, similar to Disneyland.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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We will debate the record of Senator Finucane's party.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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It is only after the next election these projects will progress.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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What did Senator Finucane's party do?
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The only thing that will happen between now and the next election is a new railway station in Portlaoise.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I would appreciate it if Senators would speak through the Chair instead of talking to one another across the floor of the House. It is disorderly to do so on the Order of Business.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. Many Senators are offering but I will only be able to take the Senators who have already indicated before we conclude the Order of Business.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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At about this time last year, I referred to certain instances pertaining to the use of fireworks. I am not a killjoy but there is more need now than ever to enforce the law. I am not calling for new legislation but the existing legislation should be enforced. There is a strong case to be made for local authorities to organise firework displays in their administrative areas. In that way the use of fireworks could be brought under control because the current situation is outrageous. Sparklers and other fireworks are being thrown through old people's letterboxes and they are living in fear and trepidation in their own homes as a result.
I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on men's health and type 2 diabetes. On a local radio station today, a representative of the Diabetes Federation of Ireland was articulating the dangers associated with type 2 diabetes and the possibility that a large section of the community is unaware that it has the condition. I urge such a debate to be scheduled as soon as possible on these important issues.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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On many occasions I have raised the number of deaths occurring on our roads. Last week, however, there were four workplace deaths. Two people were electrocuted, one in Laois and one in Leitrim, and two drownings occurred at work, one in Donegal and the other in Carrick-on-Suir. Will the Leader establish that the Health and Safety Authority has enough power to influence this situation? If we ignore what is happening such fatal accidents may increase, as happened with road deaths, because we did not pay enough attention to them at first.
Last week, a Donegal man going on holidays to the United States was stopped by the immigration authorities before he left. The reason, apparently, was that he had been tried in court and later acquitted. He claims that information on the Garda file was made available to the American authorities. I do not know if this is correct, but I would like the Leader to establish that such information on Garda files is not made available to others, particularly to those outside the State.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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In recent years there has been a much improved working relationship between the North and South of this island. In many ways it is extraordinary and not many people could have foreseen the progress that has been made in a relatively short time. For too long we have been dealing with megaphone diplomacy which was not often diplomatic. There is also an improved working relationship and interaction between Ireland and Britain. Given the spirit of the debate on Seanad reform, I thought we would all welcome the opportunity to debate positively with representatives from the North of Ireland face to face. I would like to see that idea being expanded as soon as possible because we must build on the current foundations. Looking back, Senators from the North made particularly good and positive contributions during debates in this House.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I hope the Government and the Oireachtas generally will support any move in that direction.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I was unaware that Kerry had declared UDI.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question on the Order of Business?
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I have, it concerns the so-called Atlantic corridor. There is not even a spur to Kerry from it. It is ridiculous. When will they stop treating us like second-class citizens? When will the pre-war rolling stock be replaced by decent trains between Cork and Kerry? These are important matters, yet they were not mentioned in yesterday's announcement.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I know they are important matters and I am sure there will be a debate on transport.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Kerry is what we are debating.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We can discuss that during the debate. We cannot debate it during the Order of Business.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator can raise the matter but cannot debate it.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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With the help of the Cathaoirleach, I would like to receive clarification on this matter. Much of the content of the transport plan suggests its title is a misnomer, although it has been described otherwise.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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What about improvements to the N71?
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Leader will clarify whether there is any Government thinking on the south west.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I join those who have called for a debate on the recently announced new transport policy. It presents a vision that is necessary to meet the infrastructural deficit.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I am not in the least surprised at the opposition from Fine Gael and, in particular, the Labour Party. I recall leading a deputation to Deputy Quinn 22 years ago in respect of building motorwaysââ
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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ââbetween the major population centres. At that stage, members of the transport section of the European Commission acknowledged to me privately that the failure of the then Government was a very significant factor in the failure to implement the proposals. When Members on the other side of the House talk about waste, they should reflect for a moment on the period 1982 to 1987. In five yearsââ
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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What about the sale of the century?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is seeking a debate on the transport plan.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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ââto consider having a debate on Seanad reform. Last week and this week, I have listened to the partitionist views of Members on the other side of the Houseââ
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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ââwho oppose people from Northern Ireland participating in these Chambers.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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As one from a republican party, may I say thatââ
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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ââI look forward to the day on which it will happen. Anybody who aspires to national unity should support this.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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My party signs up to those agreements on an all-party basis. Senator Jim Walsh should remember that the Progressive Democrats and other parties are against the proposal.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I call on Senator McHugh. I ask Senator Brian Hayes to resume his seat.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The only partitionist mentality that exists is demonstrated by certain people who continue to pander to Sinn Féin and the IRA. The Senator is once again pandering to the IRA.
3:00 pm
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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By way of trying to dig up a few positive aspects of the transportation plan, I acknowledge the Atlantic corridor proposal in terms of its facilitating access to counties Cork and Waterford. However, the corridor does not deal with the issues facing Donegal people. Some 140,000 people have highlighted on an ongoing basis that they need direct access from Letterkenny to Dublin. One should try telling them that a plan will be implemented which will require their having to deviate a little on their way to Dublin and head via Cork or Waterford.
There is absolutely no plan in the document with respect to the cross-Border issue and the A5 in Northern Ireland. The N2 is highlighted. I want the Minister of Transport to state what negotiations took place at cross-Border and North-South ministerial levels. What meetings took place and what commitments were given?
Maurice CumminsBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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That is the result of the partitionists.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I want a record of every minute of the meetings that took place.
Senator Norris stated he found the launch of the transport document "invigorating". Try telling that to the cancer patients coming from Donegal to Dublin.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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It takes them six hours in an ambulance.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point adequately.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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Senator Norris should try telling them it is invigorating. The only people travelling by road who have direct access to Dublin are those who travel after midnight, at which time there is not much traffic, such as tractors with slurry tankers. It is a disgrace.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. Time is running out on the Order of Business and some Members will be disappointed. The interruptions are not helping.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I am not seeking any debate on the transport plan because it is a complete myth. We should not waste our breath on it.
Michael McCarthy
Kieran Phelan (Fianna Fail)
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Just like the Labour Party child care policy.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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Not only is the plan a complete waste of time, it is also a complete waste of money.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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In that case, the Senator should raise a matter relevant to the Order of Business.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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Senator Mansergh should note that the use of the term "wasters" refers to this Government's extraordinary, scandalous and unadulterated waste of public money.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Chair does not recognise this as a question. Does Senator O'Meara have a question?
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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Could the Leader schedule a debate on the Ferns inquiry report as soon as possible? It is probably the most important matter requiring discussion. I was a member of the all-party committee chaired by the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, which has been referred to in this House. The fact that we produced a unanimous report then should not be taken to mean that a proposal coming from the Taoiseach or any source should not be closely debated. Such a report should not be a behind-the-scenes bargaining tool to either keep Sinn Féin on side in the event that it is needed after the next general election or, like the proposals regarding the commemoration of the 1916 Rising, to neutralise Sinn Féin in some way.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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While I welcome the menu of projects announced yesterday I do so grudgingly because we have heard these promises before. It will be scant comfort to commuters in Navan and in my own constituency of Dublin West because they will be forced to wait several years before any improvement is made to the transport infrastructure. The Minister for Transport should remember that it is possible to fool some of the people some of the time but not all the people all of the time. If the Minister and the Government believe this series of projects will be accepted by people, they are fooling themselves. We cannot wait until 2015 for the delivery of many of these projects.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot debate this issue on the Order of Business.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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The timeframe for the delivery of this infrastructure must be short if it is to have any effect but we have heard these promises before. It is a case of too little, too late.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I support the call for a debate on Transport 21, which is a rehashed document. The Government may have pulled the wool over the eyes of the citizens of Dublin but it has not done so with the citizens of the midlands.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Senator Bannon can do that for them.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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This document neglects the midlands and does not mention the continuation of the Mullingar to Longford dual carriageway to Carrick-on-Shannon.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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What did Fine Gael do about the Sligo line when it was in power apart fromââ
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bannon has probably never been to this place.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bannon can raise these points in a debate but it will not take place on the Order of Business.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The document does not mention the upgrade of the N55 or the N63.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We will not have a debate on the Order of Business. Does Senator Bannon have a question for the Leader?
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Leader should invite the Minister for Agriculture and Food to the House for an urgent debate on the crisis facing Irish agriculture. Agricultural enterprises are in a very depressed state.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The IFA, which is meeting today in Buswells Hotel, will make a pre-budget submission that should be taken on board in the interests of the future of Irish agriculture.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I agree with the views expressed by colleagues about the Government's new transport policy, which was announced yesterday. The new policy is a rehash of previous broken promises which will not be realised on this occasion. I am disappointed by the manner in which the announcement was made and the Government still does not appear to comprehend the idea of value for money, particularly regarding the delivery of transport initiatives.
Senator Jim Walsh made a very interesting contribution to today's Order of Business.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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There will be no debate on the Order of Business.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator Norris's previous remarks about the Order of Business. We should extend the timeframe available to Senators to debate issues on the Order of Business.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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It is the best part of the day in which to raise topical issues.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not the purpose of the Order of Business. It is about the Order of Business.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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In the period between 1982 and 1987 the Fianna Fáil Party engaged in certain activities, particularly in regard to the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which showed distinct partitionism and opportunism. If I was in that party I would not recall that period. I also recall the 1987 election when Fianna Fáil adopted the slogan "Health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the handicapped." As soon as the party got into power it made serious health cuts.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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The country has never looked back.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday we received a series of rehashed broken promises on transport.
Senator Bannon raised the issue of agriculture and it is important that we discuss this, particularly in view of the World Trade Organisation talks and Commissioner Mandelson's scandalous approach to them. He seems prepared to raise the white flag even before the talks commence and to think that agriculture can be flushed down the toilet in pursuit of other economic objectives. This approach poses serious problems for us. The Cathaoirleach will agree with my request to the Leader to arrange a debate with the Minister for Agriculture and Food where we can vent our feelings on this issue before the discussions take place.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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We have to welcome a promise to spend â¬34 billion on infrastructure. However, I am sceptical because this Government reminds me of RTE in the bad old days airing repeat programmes. I am sick of listening to repeats. This money will not address the infrastructural deficit in this election.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Will Senator Feighan's party stop it altogether if it comes into Government?
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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We will get in without the support of the Progressive Democrats.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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It is being spent on the next general election for this Government.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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The people of the west have been let down again. This was an opportunity to re-open the Claremorris to Sligo route but it has been put on the long finger.
Years ago we complained about trans-European networks. If I want to go from Sligo to Waterford I will not go through Galway, Limerick or Cork but through Athlone. This is not an Atlantic corridor or Pacific highway, or whatever it is called in the United States, it is a ministerial corridor. The Ministers had their snouts in the trough and ensured the route went through their constituencies. That is the problem with this plan.
Joanna Tuffy (Labour)
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I support Senator Feighan's comments about the west being left out of Transport 21. It makes me think that Fianna Fáil assumes its seats in the west are safe. By contrast, the party must be very worried about its vote in Lucan because we are getting the Luas, metro and a train service all at once.
Joanna Tuffy (Labour)
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However, that does not wash with me and will not wash with the voters.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Why does the Senator not treat the plan on its merits instead of using it as a political football?
Joanna Tuffy (Labour)
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A project announced for completion in Lucan this year was relabelled and re-announced for five years hence in yesterday's plans.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question on the Order of Business?
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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No she does not. She wants to make a political point.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Morrissey have anything to say? I am amazed by his silence.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Oh that one should be so lucky as to live in Lucan. Senator Brian Hayes used the awful phrase, "reheated porridge" and said there is extreme scepticism about the way we plan debates. I do not agree, everybody to whom I have spoken is very happy about it all.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The Leader recalls when she was the centre of transport issues.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator wants to know whether the Taoiseach made a secret deal with Sinn Féin. He did not. Senator Mansergh mentioned the constitutional review group and the Seanad reform committee but I imagine Senator Brian Hayes was speaking about the other House. The Cathaoirleach would not allow a full discussion on that point. To allay the Senator's fears, however, the Taoiseach has not made a secret deal with any party leader.
Senator Norris shows what it is to be an Independent Senator. I thank him for his invigorating response to the transport plan. I recall being here to discuss the plans for the Luas when everything but bread rolls was thrown at me. I am speaking metaphorically. Senator Norris was always very open and upfront about what should happen regarding the Luas and the metro.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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He is the leader of an underground movement.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The amount of money promised for transport spending represents a very significant investment in this country. It is wonderful. It is not an investment in wasting. The word "wasting" was used this morning by that aviation bootboy, which is all I can call him.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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He might know more about the metro to the airport than the Leader.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is interesting that many Senators are very enthusiastic about him lately.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader's description of the person is not proper.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Everybody knows who he is. The unnatural alliance between him and some members of a political party using the same terminology is quite amazing, but one makes one's choices.
Senator Norris raised the matter of the equality legislation and the exception made from its operation. I understand that all churches received exemptions from the equality legislation but that the Educate Together schools, who do a very fine job, are not exempt.
Senator Norris also noted the statement by the President of Iran. We spoke last week to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, after a debate in this House, and that afternoon he made a statement. I note, however, that the President of Iran has been reinvigorated and has issued another outrageous statement.
Senator Ryan used the "w" word to describe the Government.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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He used the term "a crowd of wasters".
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I do not like the term because that man used it.
Senator Ryan called for a debate on the transport plan, along with a timescale and costings. This morning we sought a debate for next week but I understand the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, who is responsible for Transport 21, will be away next week. The diary is also full for the following week.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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In three weeks' time we will have a full debate in the House on Transport 21.
The Ferns report was mentioned. I remember well the secondary school teacher mentioned, Eileen Flynn, on whom the world ganged up.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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They could not sack her when they wanted to.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Her name should not be mentioned in the context of the Ferns report.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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She is long off the scene, no doubt. We will not mention her. She was a secondary school teacher.
Senator Ryan asked about the RTE reporter being filmed with the British troops in Iraq and suggested he was giving credence to reports. The Senator described the war in Iraq as illegal and immoral. I too described it in that way, and got my knuckles rapped. I still believe that war is illegal and immoral.
Senator Mansergh said we should cautiously welcome the LVF announcement, which we should. He noted that two reports have studied the matter of access to democratic institutions. One was by the Oireachtas All-Party Committee on the Constitution and the other was the Seanad reform committee. Senator Mansergh also welcomed the transport plan.
Senator Finucane said the transport plan was a rehash of fairytales which we all heard some time ago. I never heard of all the new Luas lines, nor of the two metro lines.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Mention was made of them in July 2001.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Previous reference was made in November 1999.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is quite clear the Opposition does not want the investment. I am quite amazed.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Do we take it that if the improbable happened, and the Opposition got into Government, it would scrap the investment? Oh dear. The electorate should know that.
Senator Glynn called for the law regarding fireworks to be enforced. That is the word of the day. I agree that older people are terrified and living in fear. The Senator also called for a debate on men's health and type 2 diabetes.
Senator Quinn noted that four workplace deaths occurred last week and asked if the Health and Safety Authority has enough power to influence the situation. Fines on employers who flout the health and safety legislation have risen substantially. Senator Quinn also spoke of the Donegal man who claimed that information about him on a Garda file was given out. In certain circumstances such information must be handed over, though I am not referring to that particular situation. It is needed to combat terrorism but that is not relevant to the man from County Donegal.
Senator à Murchú would welcome opportunities for Northern politicians to speak here because of the positive contributions they could make. Senator Coghlan wants County Kerry to be provided with new rolling stock. The county has his services anyway.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I am looking for a spur from that expensive corridor.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator raised the possibility that County Kerry will opt out of the national grid.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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We are not opting out, we are being excluded.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I concur with Senator Jim Walsh's desire for a debate on transport. I was interested in his comments on the period between 1982 and 1987 because I remember a document, Building on Reality, which was published while Garret FitzGerald was Taoiseach.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It was written by Charlie Haughey. He knew the reality of the situation.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Ours was entitled, Courage to Succeed.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The document, which was published in 1986, described the then Government's decision not to make any further investment in railways.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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That was thanks to the previous Government.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is a pity the Opposition has reverted to that policy.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Convenient amnesia obtains.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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There was 14% unemployment at that time.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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There was 18% unemployment. As Senator O'Meara does not want to debate a myth, she will have to absent herself when the matter is discussed.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We have received a commitment that a debate on the Ferns report will be held in two weeks.
Senator Terry grudgingly welcomed the provisions of the transport plan and raised the concerns of her Navan constituents. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, will come to this House to debate that matter.
I concur with Senator Bannon's remark that the people of the midlands will not be fooled. They will have good representatives to ensure they are not. The Senator wants to debate pre-budget submissions with the Minister for Agriculture and Food.
Senator John Paul Phelan discussed the issue of value for money. Speaking yesterday in Dublin Castle, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, was vehement that every project will go to the Cabinet table to be costed and realistically appraised. The Minister does not throw money around. Senator Phelan also remarked on the period between 1982 and 1987 and called for a debate on agriculture before the next meeting of the WTO.
Senator Feighan welcomed the provision of â¬34 billion but claims the west of Ireland has been let down. The people of that region will not be so affected because they will have great representatives after the next election.
Senator Tuffy discussed the delights of living in Lucan, which will have many transport options.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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She will have free travel before that happens.