Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business today is No. 1, Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002 — Second Stage (resumed), to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1 p.m. Senators may speak for ten minutes and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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We have no objection to today's Order of Business.

I welcome the Taoiseach's comments in the Dáil yesterday concerning Sinn Féin. Hard words were said and I welcome the way in which he put his case to the Sinn Féin leadership. The political establishment has finally woken up to the criminal threat posed to our State as a result of the continuation of a paramilitary political party — Sinn Féin-IRA. I welcome the emergence of this new reality.

For many years I have spoken about this threat and it is welcome that Members now seem to recognise the threat posed. The Taoiseach must also state the same to some members of the Fianna Fáil Party, particularly the Member who made the naive assumption before Christmas that this paramilitary political party would likely be in Government in the Republic in the future. That is not only naive but wrong. The new dispensation that the Taoiseach has enunciated needs to be continued with more hard words.

The report of Mr. Quigley's investigation into the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, asked for by the Government, will be published today. I have not commented on this issue and, therefore, have not prejudged the matter as we await the report's final outcome. However, having watched politics for some years, I note the Government now employs 71 full-time public relations people. I admit all Governments have done so in recent years, including the Fine Gael one. A total of 160 civil servants and others have the full-time job of making Ministers look good. A sum of €10 million is paid each year to keep these people in their jobs. It is not healthy as far too much money, on an annual basis, is wasted. Much of this work is really about electioneering. It breaches the line of the work civil servants have to do on behalf of Ministers in various Departments. If there is one lesson to be learned from this entire controversy, it is that we must seriously examine the large sums of State money spent annually at puffing up the public relations of Ministers, most of whom the public would not recognise.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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This issue must be addressed and I ask that it is debated in the House. Government has expanded radically over the past ten years. I am not just attacking the Government as it was as much applicable when the Fine Gael Party was in Government. The size of government and the apparatus around it has expanded rapidly, yet I do not know what half these people do. Much of it is based on parish pump politics of the worst type and electioneering for the next election. It does not give politics a good name. I hope this controversy will lead to a genuine debate on this issue.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Too many Departments have not made the distinction between media and public relations officers. Their biggest problem is a lack of understanding of the media. I would welcome an informed debate on this issue.

On the issue of Northern Ireland, it must be recognised that little will happen this side of the Westminster election. Little else will happen between that election and the next Irish election. Instead, a political vacuum will exist over the medium term. While there will be contacts between the parties, I believe we should focus on the fallout and consequences of this situation. I am particularly worried about a community vacuum. The Seanad has had significant discussions on the Good Friday Agreement. On the two occasions I recall, we finished up with an understanding that the east-west dimension of the Agreement was being ignored. I now believe that the North-South aspect has suffered badly over recent years. There must be a focussed discussion, not just on Sinn Féin and the talks. I want to hear positive proposals as to how we can deepen the involvement of cross-community efforts, North and South in the island and east and west between the two islands.

The focus must not just be on the Irish language issue but also include Scots-Gaelic and Welsh aspects. We have not done enough in this regard and I have given examples. People on this and the neighbouring island are concerned where the main economic corridor between the two islands will exist. Will it be at Belfast, Dublin-Holyhead or Cork and Wexford to south Wales and England? We should be declaring that it will be all three points. We must also look at the involvement of groups such as Co-operation Ireland and how it can make an input. I must declare an interest as I am involved with Co-operation Ireland. I ask for a debate on these aspects of the Good Friday Agreement which can now be moved forward.

Hanging on this is the question of an understanding in the North of what is being discussed in the South, particularly over the past three days. Whether one agrees with the Government's position, coverage of the debate does not reach east Belfast, as there is no RTE reception there. Under the Good Friday Agreement, we must ensure all parts of the island have access to all television stations broadcasting on this island. RTE should be as available in east Belfast as it is in west Belfast where it is freely available. It is simply a matter of turning the transmitter to ensure this happens.

I wish to make one other point. Before Christmas, the Leader raised the issue of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, of which I am vice-chairman. Members will be aware that it has not been a good week in terms of the legal outcome. I am happy to brief people on the issue. The chief executive, Ms Patricia Byron, or the chairperson, Ms Dorothea Dowling, would be happy to brief Members of the House who wish to hear more about the matter. The Personal Injuries Assessment Board is still doing its business and dealing directly with customers. It will be producing rewards and bringing finality to claims processed in the past six months, beginning from the first week or two in March. As we said when the Bill was going through the House, it will at least be clear that this business can be done without solicitors and quickly. Certain cases require solicitors but we must make the distinction between the two types of cases.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I accept fully that we must all be careful about what we say. However, for ten minutes or so in the Dáil yesterday, every democrat in the Oireachtas — I believe that represents all of us bar five — was firmly behind the Taoiseach. Let me say unequivocally that there is no comparison between someone who fiddles their taxes or takes bribes and someone who conspires to shoot in the back of the head a widow with ten children.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am as good as anyone in this House at making comments about the misbehaviour of former Members of the Oireachtas, but there is an infinite gap between these two offences. Let there be no equivocation that what the Taoiseach said yesterday was said on behalf of all of us.

Politicians are often further ahead than people realise. It is time the organs of the media began to realise what has happened. I was astonished when watching the nine o'clock news yesterday to see at the beginning the correct response of the Taoiseach. However, I later discovered RTE interviewing a prominent member of Sinn Féin in Washington. I have a feeling that if Deputy Kenny, Deputy Rabbitte or Deputy Sargent was in Washington and a Government Minister was present, similar attention would not have been paid to their comments. Sinn Féin is an important political party but it is not the most important political party. It has five Members in the Oireachtas. The media must realise that it is not just about Sinn Féin but about the rest of us being satisfied that everyone understands what the rules are for democracy. It is up to the media to realise that it cannot give special prominence to Sinn Féin. I appeal to all branches of the media to take this on board.

I have noticed for some time many radio advertisements encouraging older people to become involved in shared home investment plans and so on. As the advertisements do not indicate that the agencies that offer to buy part of these homes are regulated by the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority, we rang them and it turns out that they are not regulated by anyone. They are not covered by consumer law because there is a solicitor involved. I love the assumption that because a solicitor is involved, nothing will go wrong. These agencies are not regulated by consumer law or the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority. People over the age of 70 are among the groups in society who are vulnerable and exposed and it is time financial regulations were extended to encompass such agencies. I am not suggesting that they are doing anything wrong, but older people deserve that sort of protection rather than letting them be exposed to manipulation. There is no cooling off period or any other guarantees in place and it is an issue which will become much more real as people's assets become much more valuable. It is time we pro-actively protected our old people from possible misrepresentation.

Margaret Cox (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader arrange a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on waste management? As we head into 2005, it is timely to look back over the success of the recycling, reuse and reduction strategies that have been in place, and supported by the Government, at all local authority levels. It is important to focus on the possibility of rewarding the efforts of people involved in these programmes throughout the country by once again examining the issue of incineration and deciding whether it is the way to go in the short term. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to come to the House to debate the matter.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I support fully the views of my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, on the phenomenal growth of the PR apparatus attaching to Government. Much of it is both unnecessary and wasteful. It is difficult to see what service it provides to the people it is sometimes supposed to serve. I look forward to a debate on the issue, presumably arising out of the Quigley report which I believe will be published today.

What does the Leader believe the so-called crucial infrastructure Bill will contain? It was much heralded some time ago to speed up the necessary major infrastructural work and to by-pass the planning authorities. I look forward to hearing what the Leader has to say on this matter, including when it will come before the House. When does the Leader expect the Finance Bill to be published? Does she anticipate that it will contain some items that were not anticipated in the Minister's budget speech?

In regard to the Inspector of Prisons report, we had a very useful debate in the House on his first report. I understand his second report has been with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform for some time awaiting publication. Will the Leader inform the House when she expects the Bill to be published?

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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There have been several debates in the House in recent years on the peace process and the Good Friday Agreement. In many ways the pendulum has swung from euphoria to dejection, but significant progress has been made in the peace process. We have praised the leaders of the different political parties for their persistence only to see the prize taken from them. However, they are still prepared, together with their civil servants, to go back to the table to try to find a solution. Looking at the history of Ireland, I do not think anyone believed throughout that period that it would be an easy task. If one travels to the North of Ireland today, one will find there is a different perception there from in the Republic. However, it is absolutely vital to hold on to that prize which is still within our grasp.

I do not think it is helpful to suggest that one can move forward without bringing everyone on board, which must be done. It is very easy to put forward in the House a litany of atrocities, which is the correct thing to do. It is right that we do not ignore humanity when trying to achieve this solution. It is right that cases were mentioned here today. We mentioned Bloody Sunday, Pat Finucane and Rosemary Nelson here previously. There are so many people who could be mentioned. As democrats, it is absolutely vital to make an effort to solve this problem. I was particularly taken yesterday morning by the brief contribution of Senator O'Meara on this issue. As she said, let us get back to business. Let us establish a real democracy in Northern Ireland and throughout the entire island. That is my appeal today. One is putting one's head above the parapet in saying something like that but the prize is too great to let it slip at this stage.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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A number of Senators spoke yesterday about the tsunami disaster which occurred on St. Stephen's Day and about the good response of the Government and the Irish people. However, what we are doing will only at the very most bring the situation in the stricken areas back to where it was. We must take this opportunity to consider how one might eliminate poverty from those areas. The Government has made commitments in the past to which it has not always lived up and it now has an opportunity to do something. Dóchas, the association of non-government agencies, is calling on the Government to use this opportunity to force a change in national and international policies.

I will touch on one other aspect of deaths over the Christmas period, namely the number of deaths on our roads. Last year the figure was 29 for the few weeks from before Christmas to the end of the year and that figure has jumped to 42 for the same period this year. We hoped we were getting somewhere in the past but seem to have gone the other way. The number of drink driving arrests also increased this Christmas as did arrests for speeding. I think there were some 19,000 charges for speeding over the Christmas period.

We know there are answers and we have seen that we can do something about this. Just before Christmas we discussed in this House the introduction of the metric system speed limits and we came up with a number of ideas to address the speeding problem. Will the Leader give attention to this matter and consider inviting the Minister for Transport to the House so that we can debate the matter in the immediate future because it is something on which we can take action? The longer we leave the problem without addressing it, the more deaths will occur.

Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator O'Toole regarding the situation in Northern Ireland. If his prediction that there will be no settlement or any negotiation until 2007 is correct, we will find ourselves in a very frightening vacuum. I echo the call for much more North-South and east-west involvement. We can show the lead in this House on a joint parliamentary basis. I know hindsight is 20-20 vision but when we eventually look back, history will tell the tale. The DUP and Sinn Féin called the shots in the last negotiations so why can we not show the lead this time?

We should also give agencies on a cross-Border basis more teeth, involvement and funding, whether it be Co-operation North, the International Fund for Ireland, INTERREG III or the Peace and Reconciliation Fund. We cannot create a community vacuum in terms of the peace process. We can still carry on and we can give local authorities in the Border counties more teeth and more involvement. There are many very good and effective cross-Border agencies at a local authority level which are working hard, coming up with good proposals and ideas, but which do not get the funding backup by Government. We owe that to them and we can bring the peace process forward if we show the lead.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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We had the Minister for Education and Science in the House to debate the school building programme and hopefully we can ensure that the money is correctly spent this year, unlike last year when money went unspent and projects were not in a position to advance. I hope the Minister will learn from that mistake and ensure that she has regular meetings with the relevant section of her Department. A debate in the House to discuss long-term funding for school building would be opportune.

Could we also include a discussion about a university for the south east? The Minister for Transport appears lately to be doing all the running on this issue. I did not know the Department of Transport had responsibility for education matters but the Minister seems to be the leading spokesperson on a university for the south east. The Minister for Education and Science might attend the House to outline whether she has a role in that area and explain what plans she has to ensure a university for the south east.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader arrange a debate on public private partnerships and how they impact on local authorities with regard to water and sewerage services? The Department of Finance is now seeking a 20% contribution from local authorities with regard to capital grants for sewerage schemes. Quite a number of such schemes around the country have cost approximately €50 million. If one considers a town like Castlebar, where the scheme is costing €50 million, the local authority must come up with 20% of that figure, which is €10 million. That is a huge cost which must be borne by the ratepayers and by the commercial side. They will be levied with that figure. Some way forward must be found so it is a matter of urgency that a debate should be arranged on public private partnerships and how they will impact on local authorities in this regard.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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Members will be aware that today is the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, where more than 1.5 million people were killed. The House should reflect on the memory of those who died there.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Brian Hayes, Senator Ryan and others for their comments about the Taoiseach and his remarks in the Dáil yesterday. It is important that we show solidarity on this issue and I will ensure that the comments of this House are passed to the Taoiseach and his office. They are significant and I welcome them.

I said yesterday that the scales had fallen from many people's eyes and indeed they have. At the same time the challenge remains to keep the peace process moving forward with all the participants. That is the biggest challenge facing everyone. Clearly there will be no significant movement before the general election in the UK but at the same time talks must continue. The challenge will be to make the Irish people's feelings known, as the Taoiseach has done, and ensure at the same time that talks continue.

Senator Brian Hayes also referred to the imminent publication of the Quigley report and the proliferation of public relations and media people in Leinster House. One has only to walk around the building to meet them. Like Senator Hayes I wonder what they are all doing. I do no know if their work is a great help to the Government and on that point I agree with the Senator.

Regarding Northern Ireland, Senator O'Toole rightly demanded much more significant movement, talks and activity, north, south, east and west. He though that would be greatly helpful. I thank him for his comments on the PIAB and especially for his offer that he or others in the PIAB would be available to talk to Members and reassure them. That offer will be taken up.

I welcome Senator Ryan's support on behalf of the Labour Party for the Taoiseach's comments in the Dáil yesterday. I take his point regarding the definition of criminality vis-À-vis the comments made yesterday and the need for a reasoned approach to be taken to people who in terms of conduct might have been perceived to be the darlings of the media.

Members will recall that we had a light debate in this House about those advertisements urging people to surrender part of the value of their houses to various agencies. The following day I was contacted by the person behind the latest advertisement who said we did not know what we were talking about. He then sent a letter, to which I replied, saying I was keen to meet the people involved, but I heard nothing further. This is a serious matter. People are clinking glasses and perhaps someone is saying "Oh Maureen, this is how we thought we would have lots of money when we got older together", but the money is obtained by brokering one's house away to the lenders who then presumably move in and take one's house. It is serious because there are gullible people who believe the clinking of glasses in the Canaries or somewhere is wonderful. I agree with the Senator that it is seductive in the wrong way. If people have a house they should hold onto it and not be dissipating their equity.

I agree with Senator Cox's comments on waste management. The Senator called for a debate on incineration. Senator Coghlan talked about the enormous growth in PR personnel. If I may say so, Senator Coghlan is his own best PR man.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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He does not need any help.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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He is around the House bustling and busy, talking and mingling.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Is this mockery or a censorious note from the Leader?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is a compliment. He certainly projects himself, in the best possible way. He will never need a PR representative.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader might forget about Senator Coghlan.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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All right, I will forget about him.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I thought the sin bin had been done away with.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator asked about the critical infrastructure Bill which is currently being prepared in the Department and also about the Finance Bill. I have bad news in respect of the latter for the entire House. It appears we may have to be back in the House on 22 and 23 March to debate the Finance Bill. That is Holy Week, so Members will have their penance done in advance of Easter. This has yet to be confirmed but it looks as if the House will be sitting on those dates. Members will be able to say they heard it here first. We should know by the end of the week.

I agree with the comments made by Senator Ó Murchú and I believe I have echoed what he has said. We have to move forward and bring everyone with us. The challenge is to match the way in which the Taoiseach spoke yesterday in the Dáil with a continuation of the peace process. Senator Quinn spoke about the tsunami disaster. We thank him for his comment and note that there is to be a debate on this matter next week, as it was raised yesterday. As regards road deaths, I will investigate that matter.

Senator McHugh wants more work done through the various North-South and east-west agencies. Senator Browne dealt with the schools building programme and asked that the Minister come to the House. As regards the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, it is natural that he should talk about the south east. While he is a Minister, he is also a Deputy for that constituency and he has brought up the matter of a university for the south east.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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And rightly so.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Education and Science is the lead player in that regard. Senator Paddy Burke raised the matter of public private partnerships. That question arose in the House before Christmas in the context of education. However, the broad question of public private partnerships should be dealt with comprehensively. I will seek to arrange a debate on that matter. I believe Senator Feighan is correct that today is the actual anniversary of the Russians moving into Auschwitz and liberating the few remaining prisoners. It is proper that this matter was raised in the House and I thank him for so doing.