Seanad debates
Thursday, 4 November 2004
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Veterinary Practice Bill 2004 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken on conclusion of the Order of Business until 1.30 p.m. Spokespersons have 15 minutes and other Senators have ten minutes. The Minister will be called upon to reply no later than five minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is agreed. Over the past two weeks, during Private Members' business, Ministers have not attended at the designated time of 5 p.m. Yesterday's transgression was minor compared with the previous Wednesday but the Leader said she would raise the matter with the Taoiseach and I would be grateful if she could report any progress in the matter. It is an important two hours for the dignity of the House and the Members who contribute in that time and it is for all groups, not just the Opposition. The rule that Ministers should be present five or ten minutes in advance is important and should be upheld.
Will the Leader organise a debate on Dublin transport in light of the controversy surrounding the future of a metro, the Luas light rail system and a possible plan suggested by Iarnród Éireann? In 1998, the Leader rejected the findings of the Atkins report, which favoured a surface connection between the two Luas lines against the underground option. The Minister for Transport has put that option back on the agenda. Why was it not supported five years ago, presumably for much less than it will cost now? The Minister for Transport should come to the House to outline the Government view on the area and bring clarity to the two Luas lines. It is crazy that the two lines bring hundreds of thousands of commuters in and out of Dublin city centre but are not linked. It should have been done from the start and the Government should outline its thinking in this area.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The House should take this opportunity to congratulate and thank the authorities in Trinity College, Dublin, who have indicated that they will co-operate with the Railway Procurement Agency and allow Dublin to get back some of the land Trinity has taken from it in the past 400 years to facilitate the Luas, and who are co-operating with the moving of the railings and walls of the college along Nassau Street.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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Does Senator O'Toole have a question for the Leader?
David Norris (Independent)
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He is Tweedledee and I am Tweedledum.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole, without interruption.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is a serious issue. I ask the Leader to convey our thanks to the authorities in Trinity College and to ask the Railway Procurement Agency to be extraordinarily sensitive architecturally in the movement of the walls and railings around Trinity College and that it be done in good taste and with due respect and dignity. I know we dare not touch Trinity College, but it is taking a broad view on this occasion.
I would like to pick up with the Leader a debate on class size we both began in 1986 and which is still very current. It is appalling to note that 25 years later and after our best efforts, there are still 350,000 primary school children in classes of more than 20 pupils, with many in classes of more than 30 or even 40 pupils. I ask that the Minister for Education and Science come to the House to outline her plans for the implementation of Government policy, as set out in the programme for Government, to reduce to 20 junior classes in primary schools. The teachers are not available to do that at present and it will require a huge increase in the number of teachers, space and definite political will and decisions. The policy won votes, so let us see it being implemented. I would like to hear how the new Minister will do that. It would be a very good project for her to take on board in her first couple of months in office.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I am always amused that when the issue of transport is discussed, it seems to be centred on the problems of transport in the Dublin city and county areas. I know there are problems of congestion in the Dublin area but the need for investment in public transport in the regions is becoming more urgent. I point to the need for an integrated transport plan for the mid-west region, particularly to support Shannon Airport and tourism in the mid-west and to link that to the western rail corridor and so on. If we have a debate on transport, which I hope we will, could it be broadened to include the need for State investment in public transport systems in the regions not simply to be connected to the Dublin system, but to be self-standing in the regions and as a way of encouraging investment in those areas?
The Leader facilitated a very good debate on child care and we noted how demands and needs have changed. Another issue is elderly care and how it has changed because of the changing social patterns in our economy, society and families and the lack of State provision for the care of the elderly which, in turn, is causing a difficulty in our hospitals. Will the Leader put that issue on the agenda as a priority? We need to provide further supports not only in the private sector, but in the public sector specifically for care of the elderly.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator Brian Hayes's call for a debate on Luas and the metro project. There is an element of rewriting history going on by some members of the Opposition here and in other places. It would be useful to clarify some of the matters. In particular, I ask the Leader to consider discussing a matter raised recently, namely, the loss of €114 million in European Union funding when she was Minister. It is a matter which needs to be clarified because a statement made elsewhere is not correct and it is important to correct the record.
In regard to Senator O'Meara's request, it would be very useful to have a debate on transport matters in the mid-west. Will the Leader consider having such a debate on a separate occasion because there are many issues concerning transportation in the mid-west not only in regard to roads and rail, but particularly in regard to the airport?
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Certainly, the bridge in Killaloe. Perhaps the Bodyke bypass could be discussed as well. There are serious matters relating to the mid-west and if we could have a separate debate on them, it would be very helpful.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Like many others, I was appalled to learn that during the tenure of the previous Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, 115 consultants' reports were produced costing €30 million. Often the decision to appoint a consultant to produce a report is to take action on a matter. No action has been taken on foot of most of those reports. The Hanly report cost approximately €750,000 and we know the Fianna Fáil backbenchers went into a spin as a result of its findings. Almost €700,000 was spent on a lifestyle report to tell us how fat and inactive we are.
I would like to think the professionalism exists within the Department of Health and Children to produce reports rather than have consultants making a fortune producing reports, the recommendations of which will never be implemented which would prove the consultants' findings. This spending was done at a time when hospital wards were being closed and patients were on trolleys. We would want to cop ourselves on in regard to consultants' reports and how funding is spent.
David Norris (Independent)
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I support the calls for a debate on transport. I echo what Senator Dooley said about the Leader when she was Minister for Transport. She was the only Minister in living memory who had the courage to keep an open mind on the metro project. I appreciated that very much, as did all sides of the Houses, and she did a good day's work. It is important we have a debate on the metro. This does not exclude consideration of the rest of the country but I think it is natural that we spend some time considering Dublin's transport problems because it is the capital city, one third of the population lives here and many country people come to Dublin, use the transport system and are frustrated by it. It is unwise to create that false urban-rural divide. We should consider the problems of the country on an integrated basis.
I welcome that on "Questions and Answers" last Monday, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, made it clear the metro project is still under active consideration and that yesterday the Taoiseach made the same point in the other House when, for some obscure reason, the Labour Party tried to suggest the metro was a dead duck. The Taoiseach made it quite clear it was under active consideration and could come on stream in a comparatively short space of time. This House would help the process by having a debate on the matter.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I invite the Leader to comment on the sale of a major national asset, namely, the Irish Petroleum Corporation.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I wonder is it her role to comment; it might be someone else's.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I will leave that up to the Leader. I am concerned about value for the taxpayer in that this sale included the oil refinery at Whitegate and the storage depot at Whiddy Island. It was sold to Conoco — perhaps there was another company involved before it, or which it took over. The company's name sounded like an opera. I think the name I was given was Tosco. I do not know if the Leader was Minister at the time but the headline consideration was £100 million. In answer to a question in the other House last week, the Minister stated the State had received, or was likely to receive, only €20 million. That is hardly value for the taxpayer. Are there shades of Irish ISPAT here?
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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I raise the issue of media ownership, particularly newspaper ownership, following on from a recent high profile documentary on RTE. Will the Leader facilitate a debate on that issue to establish the involvement of families, particularly in newspaper ownership which is a very powerful organ of the media?
I disagree fundamentally with Senator Norris on the issue of transport. There is a real issue involving the use of the word, with a Dublin mindset instantaneously creeping into the debate. If there is a debate on transport it should be conducted in terms of the regions just as much as urban areas. I would also like to hear about the assistance and co-operation of the authorities of Trinity College, Dublin, in terms of developing and facilitating the expansion of the Luas project. It is incumbent on them and on the TCD Senators to commit to transport policy in general.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to support several colleagues on the subject of a transport debate and would recommend having it in two parts, namely, national transport and transport in the greater Dublin area. We should express appreciation for the amount of investment that is coming on stream. This year we had the two Luas lines, the extension to the M50, which is opening today, the opening of the Monasterevin bypass on Monday, the Cashel bypass, the re-opening of the Tipperary-Waterford line with a viaduct and so on. Much progress has been made and there will be more.
I am not over-critical about the fact that Luas lines were not joined up at the first stage. The basic lines are now in place and are extremely successful. I was on one of the lines no later than yesterday and there is great demand for them. The point is that once the basics are in place they can be added to and extended and that is what we should be doing.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mansergh spoke about the amount of investment that is coming on stream. I have a different story because much public concern has been expressed by finance officers and public representatives throughout the country with regard to the clawback in funding for various programmes and schemes that were to come on stream this year and next. These include water and sewerage schemes and infrastructural development programmes. This was all promised last year and money was being thrown around like confetti at a wedding.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I am asking the Leader to invite the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government into the House to debate what he intends to do to address the serious concerns about funding and the ever-growing deficits being faced this year by local authorities when they are preparing their budgets. This is a matter of serious concern to many people because of the slowdown of infrastructural development, not alone in the capital but throughout rural Ireland.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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We are speeding up, not slowing down.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The points the Senator is making may all be raised in the debate.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I support the calls for a debate on transport. It is important that the transport debate should be broadened to include all of Ireland. We have serious concerns with the Dublin-Sligo rail line. Only last week a number of patients coming to Dublin for cancer treatment missed their appointments because of train delays in the midlands. It is annoying for a large number of people and I hope it will be addressed.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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This is another matter for the debate.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader request the Minister of State with responsibility for health and safety matters, Deputy Killeen, to investigate the safety of quad bikes? A number of deaths have occurred this year involving quad bikes and many people have been seriously injured. Twenty years ago, tractors, which travel slowly, had to have safety devices such as roll bars and cabs fixed.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Quad bikes should and must have safety devices on them and I would ask the Leader to request Deputy Killeen to deal with this issue through the Health and Safety Authority.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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I rise to resist the provocation regarding Trinity College, which came from the left.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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That is a first for Trinity.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator need not respond. He should speak on the Order of Business.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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——except to anticipate a responsible and public spirited attitude of co-operation from the powers that be, if that is necessary. I do not believe there is any doubt about that.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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When one realises that UCD has only been open for 150 years we will do what we can for it.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should speak on the Order of Business.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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A debate on transport is a fine idea and absolutely necessary. However, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, could be occupied in this House for a long time. We should not restrict the debate to the Luas. Some serious questions have to be answered but there has been a continuous failure to do so. They concern the other two major problems in this area, namely, Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus.
Whereas the change of Minister may or may not make a difference, Deputy Cullen has not only inherited the problems which his predecessor was struggling with, he has also got the boards, particularly of Aer Rianta, appointed by the former Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan. We must ask a serious question, not about State appointments to boards but whether it is awkward for Deputy Cullen that people who were hand-picked by one person to do a particular job are now being employed by him for a different role. We must face the fact that they have loyalties to a particular Minister. We must ask whether these boards are now suitable for the current Minister and whether he is happy with them.
We should have a debate on transport in this House but not just on the Luas. Such a debate would allow Deputy Cullen to debate Aer Rianta in light of the fact that he has taken over as Minister.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator O'Meara's call for a debate on the care of the elderly and on child care, which I have asked for before. Specifically I am asking for a debate on the care of the elderly, which I believe has reached crisis point. Many hospital beds are occupied by elderly people who either cannot afford to go into nursing homes or the State is not caring for them in the manner in which it should or in the way in which we would aspire to care for them. That debate should focus on community care, particularly given that most health centres are not in a position to provide a home help to enable elderly people to stay in their homes. Will the Leader arrange a debate on this issue as soon as possible?
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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Yesterday, I attended the launch by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, of the National Safety Council's booklet and campaign on child safety in cars. I was amazed to learn that we in Ireland use child safety seats only 50% of the time they are used in either Sweden or the United Kingdom. This is not just a question of educating the driving public. We have a full rate of VAT on these safety artefacts. In the North of Ireland and in Britain there is a reduced rate of VAT, equivalent to only 5%. I suggest one of the things we can do, if the Minister of Transport is coming to the House, is to urge him to use his influence to reduce or eliminate VAT on child safety equipment because we have such a low level of usage compared with other countries.
11:00 am
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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The US presidential election and its results concerned us yesterday and the day before. There was a major increase in voter turnout and that was great news. One reason for this, as far as I am aware, is that in America the presidential election day is a national holiday. That is something we should look at in Ireland in respect of general elections. A national holiday might encourage people to come out and vote in large numbers on the day, which would be good for democracy.
If the Minister for Health and Children is shortly to come into the House could we raise with her the issue of the sale of lands around hospitals and where the moneys realised will go? It would give us the opportunity to ask the Minister if the money is to be kept in the region where the land is being sold or disappear to some other place. While most people have no difficulty with options being considered, they would prefer to see money raised from the sale of land being reinvested locally in hospitals or the environment.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader of the Opposition, Senator Brian Hayes, asked what developments there had been on the breach of courtesy over a week ago. I wrote to the Taoiseach as I felt that was the best way to record the matter. While there was a delay yesterday, Senator Hayes acknowledged that it was nothing like as long as the one a week ago. I am very conscious that Private Members' time is a very useful mechanism for all sides in the House and the debates which have been held during it have been excellent. Yesterday's debate was particularly fine with useful contributions from across the House. It is proper that Ministers scheduled to attend such debates arrive punctually.
Senator Brian Hayes also requested that time be made available for a debate on the Luas and a Dublin metro. Transport seemed to be this morning's theme and we will seek to facilitate a debate.
Senator O'Toole was a little previous in saying Trinity College would accommodate the Luas line. I did not read that the college said it would, though we would like to think so.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I cannot imagine the college opposing the common good of the citizenry.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Indeed. The matter will come to the surface very quickly, if Members will pardon the pun, when the debate gets up to speed. I am using all the wrong metaphors. Senator O'Toole is stirring the pot early on this issue on behalf of his fellow Senators. I am quite sure that in line with its long tradition of goodwill, acceptance and knitting into the city, Trinity will facilitate the Luas.
Senator O'Toole also raised the matter of class sizes and indicated that 350,000 school children are in classes with too high a pupil-teacher ratio. He called on the Minister for Education and Science to reduce junior class sizes as laid out in the programme for Government. Deputy Hanafin has made a great start on the provision of special needs assistants on which I have heard great compliments. The INTO made a significant input into the decision-making process and I hope it will continue to do so.
Senator O'Meara made the very valid point that there is a mindset which considers transport issues to relate only to Dublin. While one third of the population live here, there is a whole world outside the city. The Senator made particular reference to the mid-west. The Senator suggested we should have two debates and I agree with her. The point was echoed by other speakers. Senator O'Meara was also keen that time be provided for a debate on care of the elderly.
Senator Dooley spoke about transport also and pointed to a tendency among some to attempt to rewrite history when the matter is raised. The Senator asked me to clarify a matter relating to my time as Minister. Not one punt was wasted of the £114 million EU funding to which he referred. We sent a fine civil servant, Mr. John Fearon, to Brussels where he negotiated to allow us to keep the money which was used to replace Dublin's awful, belching buses. It was the first time a member state was able to keep such funding and transfer it to public transport and roads. I intend to obtain a full explanation of the matter. It is highly mischievous for an eminent person to suggest the £114 million had to be returned to Brussels when we kept every single punt in Ireland and invested the money in transport. While I intend to make a separate statement on the matter, I thank Senator Dooley for raising it.
Senator Finucane referred to the €30 million the last Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, spent on reports. He made the point that there is professionalism within Departments, which I have always found to be true, and suggested we should cop ourselves on and produce reports internally. The Hanly report was mentioned. One cannot have it every way. Whether one attempts to implement the recommendations of reports or fails to do so, one is subjected to negative criticism. One often considers that we must cop ourselves on in every sense.
I thank Senator Norris for his comment. I have always enjoyed hearing his observations on the metro. It appears the metro is back on the agenda which pleases us all. Senator Norris said a false urban-rural divide was being created in the context of transport, but this is not so. The point other Senators sought to make was that another world of transport needs exists outside those of Dublin. Those needs must also be discussed and debated.
Senator McCarthy raised a very interesting point about media ownership, which is of interest to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who has been quite open about discussing it. The Senator also echoed the call for a debate on transport.
Senator Mansergh said there were many positive stories to tell of financial injections in transport and agreed that there was a need for a general debate on the matter.
Senator Bannon referred to water and sewerage schemes and the concerns of local authorities regarding their forthcoming budgets. We can endeavour to secure the attendance of the Minister with responsibility for that area.
Senator Moylan referred to quad bikes on one of which the president of the IFA had a very serious accident. He asked that the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Killeen, be invited to the House to address the matter from a health and safety perspective.
Representing the voice of Trinity College, Senator Ross said he was sure the college would do the right thing. The Senator expressed concern about State boards which appeared to maintain loyalty to a particular Minister rather than to the Government in general. The Senator asked me to arrange for the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, to come to the House to discuss the boards of Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus, which I will attempt to do.
Senator Terry referred to the care of the elderly. "Bed-block" is an utterly distasteful word which people use now. Who wants to stay in hospital? The difficulties seem to lie in the areas of community care, changes of housing, adaptation of domestic dwellings and the various other steps which can be taken to ease people back into a home environment. We will seek the Tánaiste's presence in the House to discuss the matter.
Senator Quinn attended yesterday's launch of the National Safety Council's booklet and campaign on child safety in cars and referred to the poor level of use of children's safety seats.
Senator Browne called for a national holiday on polling days, but I am not sure it would improve turnout. People might take a trip or go shopping instead.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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They could vote first and go shopping later.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I note that the Senator appears to be getting into a political mood. I saw an article in the Carlow Nationalist about him recently. Good for the Senator. He could place his suggestion on his manifesto.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator was on the front page.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The paper was sent to me for another reason.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. We cannot discuss the contents of the Carlow Nationalist on the Order of Business.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Or, indeed, Senator Browne's electoral chances. Senator Browne asked if money raised from the sale of land at a medical facility would be reinvested locally or placed in a national fund. It is a fair point. When the Tánaiste comes to the House, the issue can be among those raised with her.
Senator Coghlan referred to the sale of INPC. The name of the opera is "Tosca", but the name of the firm which purchased the company is Tosco. We will get the details of that because it will show a good bargain was struck on the matter. It was a far better bargain than was struck with ISPAT for £1.