Seanad debates
Wednesday, 20 October 2004
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion on Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund Regulations 2004, to be taken without debate. The Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has completed its discussions on the regulations; No. 2, motion on the Adoptive Leave Act 1995 (Extension of Periods of Leave) Order 2004, to be taken without debate. The Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights has completed its discussions on the order; No. 3, motion on the Residential Institutions Redress Act 2002 (Additional Institutions) Order 2004, to be taken without debate. The Joint Committee on Education and Science has completed its discussions on the order; No. 4, Land Bill 2004 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude no later than 11.30 a.m.; No. 5, statements on planning and related issues, to be taken from 11.30 a.m. until 1.30 p.m. Spokespersons will have 15 minutes and other Senators ten minutes. The Minister shall be called upon to reply no later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements; No. 6, statements on the progress on the implementation of the Children Act 2001, to be taken from 3 p.m. until 5 p.m. Spokespersons will have 15 minutes and other Senators ten minutes. The Minister shall be called upon to reply five minutes before the conclusion of the statements; and No. 21, motion No. 16, to be taken from 5 p.m. until 7 p.m. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. to 3 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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When will a special package of measures be brought forward by the Government and the Minister for Health and Children to address the crisis in accident and emergency departments? Is this not a scandal, given that the Government has been in office for eight years? This is why the public is rising up over the performance of the Government on this issue. Eight years into office the situation has worsened. There is a chronic shortage of acute beds in our hospitals and, on a daily basis, up to 20% of people in Dublin hospitals are long-stay patients who need step-down facilities. Will the Government consider providing emergency funding for beds in private nursing homes to deal with the capacity issue head on? Does the Leader agree that a full audit of facilities in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway needs to be conducted to ensure additional bed capacity is provided for long-stay patients? This issue must be dealt with and, eight years later, now is the time to do so. A package of measures must be brought forward urgently.
The House will support and offer sympathy to the family of Margaret Hassan, the latest kidnap victim in Iraq. She was born in Ireland, although she has been an Iraqi citizen for the past number of years, and she has done tremendous work. We should send our support to her family at this difficult time. It is an immense contradiction that the group responsible for the murder of Mr. Bigley a number of weeks ago argued that Iraqi women were being detained unlawfully. Ms Hassan is an Iraqi woman who is being unlawfully detained in Iraq and she should be released forthwith.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The first item on the Order of Business, the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund Regulations 2004, is to be taken without debate. There was a significant debate on a similar motion in the Lower House yesterday. While the regulations were discussed at committee and I do not object to the motion, an opportunity should be afforded to Members who wish to speak on this and similar motions. If a motion is referred to committee, debated and sent back to the House, that should not mean it does not need to be debated here. Usually, there should not be a debate but one should be considered, where appropriate. I do not have a difficulty with the other motions on the Order of Business.
On the question of the kidnapping of Ms Hassan, much more needs to be considered than the mere points raised by Senator Brian Hayes. As well as airing our views, we, as Members of Parliament, should also make it clear that many of us deplore the occupation of Iraq——
David NorrisJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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——and we are absolutely opposed to the involvement of the US and the UK. While we hold no brief for the former President of Iraq and welcome his removal, the current situation is unacceptable, as was the manner in which he was taken out. We have great sympathy for the people of Iraq at this time. While we could never support, justify or vindicate in any way the ultra-judiciary actions that have taken place in the form of kidnappings, assassinations and murders, which are completely wrong and always will be completely wrong, we should also acknowledge the frustration the ordinary people of Iraq are experiencing. We should make the strongest appeal to those holding this innocent woman, who has been spent her life helping the people of Iraq, to show her mercy and release her back to her family. The world is watching and there is nothing to be gained by holding her. The people holding her should show an understanding of her circumstances and what she has done. I ask that this is brought to the attention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, although it might be easier to ask him to come to the House to indicate his views. While he has indicated his views publicly, it is important that the Taoiseach and Ireland take a public position on the matter also.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Regarding the unfortunate circumstances in Iraq and the kidnapping of a fine, brave woman, it is ironic that she was able to work freely in Iraq for the past 35 years without suffering anything like what she is suffering now. We all deplore it. I agree with Senator O'Toole that if people in western countries preach from a position of moral superiority, morality must be indivisible. The fundamental wrong which has devalued the capacity of countries like Ireland to have influence is our selective approach to saying something is deplorable. While we all agree that the murder by suicide bombers in Israel of perhaps 100 children over the past number of years was deplorable, 600 Palestinian children were killed by the Israeli defence forces in the same period. That is also deplorable.
To invade a country without a strategic plan as to how to sustain and restore civic society, political institutions and infrastructure was an act of political and military vandalism. This act is now playing into the hands of people who have in common with the invaders of Iraq an indifference to any idea of morality and a belief that a political objective, however desirable, justifies whatever means are necessary to achieve it. While I do not appeal to anybody to apologise for the removal of Saddam Hussein, to remove him while precipitating circumstances in which the conditions of the people of Iraq are becoming worse than they were under his rule demands not just an apology, but a fundamental reappraisal of policy by every western government. In that context, the kidnapping of civilians is deplorable and we all appeal for the release of Ms Hassan.
A conference on less lethal weapons is taking place in Dublin this week. Less lethal weapons are, presumably, those which do not kill quite as many people as lethal weapons. A senior officer of the Garda has participated in the conference which is, unintentionally, a statement which legitimises the business of dual-purpose weapons. Sometimes such weapons are used for crowd control and sometimes they are used as instruments of torture. A moral question is involved and I ask the Government to make it clear that the conference was a once-off event. In future, we must endeavour to ensure that such conferences do not happen here.
I hope the Government issues a comprehensive statement on the final outcome of the Chen case in the immediate future. The Government's position is that immigration matters must be transparent. Last week, I tried to obtain from the Asylum Appeals Tribunal a simple answer as to whether people giving evidence before it were required to do so under oath. I was told I had to put the question in writing and that it would take ten days to get a reply. A body which is meant to be transparent and open could not give me an answer on request as the only person permitted to respond would only do so if the question was submitted in writing. It turned out that the person in question had gone on holiday and that it would take ten days for an answer to issue. That is not a transparent process and it does not give one confidence in the body.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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The world is once again experiencing an emotional rollercoaster. We have been down this road before with the abduction of Mr. Ken Bigley. All one can hope for is that Ms Margaret Hassan has not been abducted by the most extreme elements of Islamic fundamentalism. I ask that the Leader support the efforts of the Taoiseach and Government in matters relating to the abduction of this Irish born person caught up in the maelstrom of evil in Iraq. I hope the diplomatic efforts and contacts now being used throughout the Muslim world for a woman who has given most of her working life to helping those less well off than ourselves will pay off.
With due deference to my distinguished colleagues on the other side of the House, I wish that when debates on matters of this nature arise we could move away from the historical fact that there was an invasion of Iraq. We must now deal with the reality on the ground.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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As somebody who opposed the war and who is on the record of this House as having opposed US unilateralism——
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Senator means the Fianna Fáil republican party bit-——
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I do not feel in any way morally superior to anybody else; we are all in this together. This is now a UN mandated operation.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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That is what people used to say about South Africa.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I ask those heckling me to offer, for once, a solution to what is happening in Iraq. Are they seriously suggesting that there should be a total withdrawal of forces from Iraq so the country, which has already descended into anarchy and chaos, would be a basket case? What are they suggesting?
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Only a supporter of Mr. George Bush would think that is the issue.
Martin ManserghRory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That will be established if we have a debate on the matter.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I was going to make the point, as stated by my colleague, that we should support the United Nations. We are constantly hearing in this House about the importance of the United Nations.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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The United Nations has mandated this but what is happening is that countries are standing back and not getting involved in the reconstruction of Iraq for security reasons. The UN had to pull out, as did most of the multi-national agencies. There is a real crisis on the ground in Iraq. It does not help the debate towards a viable and free Iraq to constantly hark back to what happened 18 months ago, sad, difficult and evil as it may have been. Let us move forward.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I do not wish to get lost in the verbiage here. I ask the Leader, given her sympathies in this regard as a woman and political leader, to ensure we give our full support to the Taoiseach and Government in trying to secure the freedom of Ms Hassan. I am sad to say——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has elaborated at length on the matter. There are other speakers offering.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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This time last year we discussed the crisis in accident and emergency units. We are again discussing the same issue this year. Anyone who listened to the media will have heard the horror stories of people lying on trolleys awaiting admission to hospital. It is interesting that in the UK a person cannot be left on a trolley for more than four hours. In Ireland, many people remain on trolleys for a week or more.
When discussing last week the situation at Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children in Crumlin, I indicated that it would be worthwhile if the Minister for Health and Children came to the House as soon as possible to outline her proposals for dealing with the health crisis. It is remarkable that we are still experiencing such problems. The former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, will probably be remembered for the ban on smoking in the workplace. He was also known as the Minister for reports, which are now gathering dust. It is time for action. We want to hear from the Minister for Health and Children concrete proposals on how this important issue can be addressed.
Margaret Cox (Fianna Fail)
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As we prepare for the budget I am seeking a debate on the issue of child care. While I acknowledge significant strides have been made in this area in the past five or six years through increases in child benefit and the number of crèche places available, the manner in which we deal with the provision of child care is fundamentally flawed. That a recent survey showed that over 30% of the respondents spend more on child care in a month than they do on their mortgage is a sign something is drastically wrong. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the subject so that Senators can pool their knowledge and ideas and perhaps achieve some reform of the system in order to resolve this issue for working parents.