Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Land Bill 2004 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 2 p.m, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Why has the Government not ordered Committee Stage of the Garda Síochána Bill 2004 given that it concluded Second Stage on 11 March? It has taken seven months for the Government to put it back on the Order Paper. I raise this in light of the Government's recent announcement of the dismissal of Superintendent Kevin Lennon following the conclusions of the Morris tribunal. This is a serious matter. Tribunals into allegations of Garda corruption in Donegal or anywhere else would not be needed if we had a person similar to Nuala O'Loan and the powers her office has in Northern Ireland in this jurisdiction.

The Garda Síochána Bill provides such a model to investigate complaints against members of the force. The Government should take Committee Stage of the Bill so that we can put the structures in place to deal with allegations of Garda corruption rather than scapegoating a number of named individuals as a result of this debacle. The Bill is needed now, not in seven months. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has regularly voiced his disapproval of the legislative process on radio and television because it takes so long for Bills to get through the Oireachtas. This House has always done its work in an efficient way. We had an excellent Second Stage debate on this Bill with 30 Members contributing and, in fairness to the Minister, he was present for the debate. However, why has the Government not ordered Committee Stage of the Bill so that structures can be put in place to deal with such allegations on a constant basis?

There is a need for the Bill to be brought to Committee Stage and I ask the Leader to order it in the coming weeks. Our party will facilitate her in bringing the matter to a swift conclusion so that the same protection is afforded to our citizens as is afforded to citizens in Northern Ireland.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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I will take the Order of Business on behalf of the Independents in the absence of most of my colleagues.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not refer to absentees.

David Norris (Independent)
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As long as I am present, it is no problem.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ross, without interruption.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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I ask the Leader to arrange an urgent and early debate on Aer Lingus, a topic which has risen to the fore in the past few days. I hope it will not expose a difference between the Progressive Democrats and Fianna Fáil but there is such a danger. The debate needs to take place immediately because Willie Walsh, the chief executive of Aer Lingus, appeared before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport yesterday and announced that the so-called investment plan had been withdrawn. This means Aer Lingus is back in limbo, the future of the company is a matter of conjecture and nobody knows about it. It is important because a great deal of State money is involved.

Its ownership provokes and prompts a great deal of political and ideological discussion. This debate should be taken without delay. Aer Lingus is in a healthy state. Those who support the status quo and continued State ownership, in particular, say it is fine and why interfere with the company. However, this is a business that goes up and down quickly and with the price of oil increasing on world markets, Aer Lingus could be in crisis again within months. That is the reality. We should not sit back in a self-satisfied manner just because everything is all right with Aer Lingus currently while failing to anticipate the next crisis in this semi-State body. If we rely on history, it is certain that there will be a crisis.

When we discuss Aer Lingus we should also discuss the future of Aer Rianta, a related subject which I raised yesterday in the House. It has reached a critical point. Such a debate need not be a matter of personalities or bashing one person or another. Aer Rianta is about to be transformed one way or the other and it would be very suitable for this House not to be a spectator in the development of these semi-State bodies. As long as these companies are under State ownership, the House has a real role to play from which it should not shy away for political reasons.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I support the call for a debate on the future of Aer Lingus and Aer Rianta as well as on Government policy generally on privatisation and the future of semi-State companies. Under pressure, we passed legislation on Aer Rianta before the summer which indicated a certain policy line by the Government. It appears that policy line has now completely changed. It is important for us to know what Government policy is, assuming the Government knows itself. We should also be allowed to hold a clear and wide-ranging debate on the future of our semi-State companies with particular reference to the air transport industry which forms such a critical aspect of our economic development and status. This is only one example of the lack of clarity on Government policy which exists following the Cabinet reshuffle.

Last week, I asked for a debate on health policy. Has the Leader managed to make progress on that issue? This morning we have seen implications that the Minister for Health and Children is squaring up for a stand-off with hospital consultants while we remain unclear as to the future of the Hanly report. As I stated last week, many communities around the country are very concerned about the future of their hospitals. At a minimum, they are entitled to know the thinking of the new Minister for Health and Children on the subject.

Will the Leader consider providing time for a debate on an aspect of policy on children following the publication of a report by Barnardos last week which was compiled in conjunction with the Children's Research Centre? The report studied the phenomenon of children acting as carers and registered a growing concern about its impact on them. On brief consideration of the report, the first thing that emerges is that we have no information in this country on the number of children acting as carers in their families. We should take time to discuss this very valuable and worthwhile report.

Tom Morrissey (Progressive Democrats)
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I echo and support the call for an urgent debate on the future of Aer Lingus. Yesterday, we had the spectacle of Willie Walsh being politically mugged at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Transport. Representatives of parties in this House vied with each other to cosy up to the unions to the greatest extent. In the first sentence of his presentation, Willie Walsh said the airline industry was returning to crisis and he went on to state that he had withdrawn his offer of an investment proposal. The Government had three months to consider the proposal but had not done so before it was withdrawn. As the major shareholder in Aer Lingus, the Government has a responsibility to the taxpayer. It is outlandish for Willie Walsh to have to continue to manage a business in such a competitive environment while waiting for the major shareholder to make a decision. I want the new Minister for Transport to come to the House to address the issue urgently.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is Senator Morrissey on the move again?

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The strategic national infrastructure Bill is intended to fast-track the planning regime for major infrastructural projects and remove the approval roles of local authorities and An Bord Pleanála. Who will decide if a project is of such importance that it merits the status to be conferred by this legislation? When does the Leader expect the Bill to be taken and will it be initiated in this or the other House?

David Norris (Independent)
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I return to calls I have made over the last while for a debate on the Middle East which focuses on the policy of the United States of America in Iraq and Israel. The latest report of the Interim Review Commission this morning indicates that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and that senior people in the USA knew this was the case. This is very damning. Mr. Rumsfeld said there was no connection between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein and then tried to withdraw the remark. There is obvious confusion and it is important to have a debate.

I return also to an issue I put to the Leader in the last session. It may be the case that two named persons who were kidnapped by the United States of America were brought through Shannon Airport at some stage. There is a real problem concerning the use of Shannon Airport for the transfer of victims of torture. I refer to an article by Michael McCaughan in Village, the new magazine edited by Vincent Browne, headlined "Shannon used as kidnap operation stop-over". According to the report, on 18 December 2001, US operatives kidnapped Ahmed Agiza and Muhammed Al-Zery, Egyptian exiles who had requested asylum in Sweden. They were forced onto a plane in Sweden despite protests by the Swedish migration board. Each of the prisoners had his clothes removed from his body with a scissors, a suppository inserted into his anus and diapers placed on him. Their hands and feet were chained to a specially-designed harness and they travelled blindfolded and hooded.

I put it to the House that these are conditions of torture and that the people suffering them may have been transported through Irish airspace and may have landed in Shannon. This is an illegal act and I urge strongly that these circumstances be investigated. We have reports of two named people who were kidnapped and subjected to torture. The kidnap and export of people to third countries so they may be subjected to torture is intolerable and this country should not be implicated in it in any way.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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Some time ago, I asked the Leader to arrange a debate in the House on pensions. I ask again for the debate in light of the debacle of the handling of endowment mortgages by many financial institutions. We must take a very serious look at the way many financial institutions manage endowment mortgages and pensions. It is a very serious issue which is becoming more serious by the day. I have information from the Pensions Board that many companies are considering winding up their pension schemes and that many schemes are underfunded. Many of those who expected in their later years to draw the pension into which they have paid for a long time are now finding that those pensions are completely underfunded or will not even exist when they retire. I ask the Leader to organise a debate at the earliest opportunity.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to invite to the House the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources for a debate on the roll out of broadband technology. We require this superfast Internet service for industry, business and to support decentralisation and communities. As I have said in the past, it is the 21st century equivalent of electrification in the 20th century, railways in the 19th century and canals in the 18th century. It is important that broadband roll-out is fast-tracked. I am greatly annoyed by the significant underspend of funding in the BMW region as highlighted in the mid-term report on Government. It is necessary to ensure that whatever funds are required to fast-track this development are provided. A debate on the matter is desirable.

Some control must be implemented in response to the significant hike in ESB charges. I understand the regulator has in the past few days agreed to a 9% increase in ESB charges with a further 4% increase before Christmas. Coupled with two earlier increases, this will add approximately €65 to the average household ESB bill. This area needs to be brought under control. Perhaps the Leader will consult with the appropriate Minister on this matter, which warrants a debate.

Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I join my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, in calling for the speedy enactment of the Garda Síochána Bill 2004. The Government's procrastination on this Bill is leading to serious issues within the force, particularly in Donegal. While the Morris tribunal has its merits and must do its job, the perception throughout the island is that the only place where corruption exists is in Donegal. That is a negative perception which does nothing for morale in the force in Donegal or to instil public confidence in the police force there. The vast majority of the police force in Donegal are competent and not corrupt.

It is not good enough for the Governments to use the Morris tribunal as a way of introducing transparency and accountability. It is time the Garda Síochána Bill 2004 was enacted because a Garda ombudsman is the only mechanism which will bring about transparency and accountability. A tribunal in isolation only introduces negative perceptions to a small part of Ireland and that is not good enough.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I also call on the Leader to ask the new Minister for Transport to come to the House to make a clear statement on the future of Aer Lingus and to state whether he will be receptive at a future date to a management or management-employee buy-out. There is an onus on him to ensure taxpayers and staff at Aer Lingus know where they stand. I understand staff at Aer Lingus are demoralised and unsure of their future. It is important that we have a clear statement on the matter from the Minister responsible.

I support Senator Terry's call for a debate on pensions. Another issue which could be considered during such a debate is that of a person who marries following retirement and whether his or her spouse is entitled to his or her pension. I am aware of one case where that is not the case. People are living longer and it is common for them to marry later in life. Perhaps this issue could be considered in a debate on pensions.

Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I support the calls for the speedy enactment of the legislation dealing with the Garda ombudsman. It is in the public interest that it is introduced as quickly as possible. I have a certain pride of authorship in that I drew up the blueprint for the Northern Ireland office. That legislation has worked. It is important to note that it gave confidence to the police there that it too would get a fair shake. Citizens are entitled to reassurance that complaints will be investigated. The Garda is also entitled to reassurance that unfounded allegations will be disposed of quickly. It is in the public interest that this Bill is brought forward.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I call on the Leader to invite the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to the House to debate the drugs issue. A recently published survey which took more than five years to complete indicates teenagers are abusing drugs and alcohol more often. This is an insidious crime which, if we do not deal with it immediately, will result in our losing all the fruits of our labour during the past few years. The drugs issue is becoming increasingly prevalent in every town, city and village in the country. The Garda does not have the resources or wherewithal to do anything about it.

In 2002, some 41% of those surveyed had taken drugs, up from 34% in 1997. We are told resources are available through the regional drugs task forces. Unfortunately, the problem is becoming increasingly prevalent and more people are using drugs recreationally. We must act now before matters get out of control.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Like most Members, I would welcome a debate on the future of Aer Lingus. All of us value its importance to the welfare of the country. It is not correct to say that when a body like Aer Lingus is in State ownership, it is therefore in limbo. The chairman of the World Competitiveness Council said on radio this morning that it is not important to our welfare whether our airline is in State or private ownership; what is important is the routes that are available. Much of the hesitation some of us would have about privatisation relates to what guarantees would be available in terms of routes in and out of the country.

It is fine to speak of policy towards semi-State bodies but I am not sure there should be a policy towards semi-State bodies. Each body must be dealt with pragmatically on its merits. I do not want to see happen to Aer Lingus what happened to Irish Steel in the mid-1990s when it was sold for £1 and closed a few days later by a fly-by-night merchant.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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Or Eircom.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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And Irish Shipping.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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That is not the model for handling semi-State bodies. I do not believe three months is an unreasonable period within which to consider such an important strategic decision in terms of the country's future. If we make a mistake, it could have very serious consequences for our future welfare. We live in a social partnership culture but that does not mean we have to blindly follow what any one social partner says. However, we have to take different interests into account. On the whole, that culture has served us well.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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That is rubbish.

David Norris (Independent)
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Senator Ross is suffering distress.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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That is his master's voice.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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If in doubt, leave them out.

Margaret Cox (Fianna Fail)
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I call on the Leader to organise a debate on the disability issue. I am aware we will soon debate the Disability Bill but my concerns relate to speech therapists being attached to schools. I am referring to moving speech therapy from the Department of Health and Children in cases where it relates to education, thereby providing that schools which bring children with special needs into an integrated educational setting will be able to call on dedicated speech therapists. I would like that to be the focus of the debate. It is a matter which may be discussed with the Minister for Health and Children or the Minister for Education and Science.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I was home late last night and watched "Oireachtas Report" which reported that the Seanad returned this week. That is not true. Perhaps whoever was responsible for that might correct it. The Seanad resumed business last week on the same day as the Dáil.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

David Norris (Independent)
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I came back this week.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris is special.

Senator Brian Hayes as Leader of the Opposition asked when we would take Committee Stage of the Garda Síochána Bill 2004. That legislation was debated with great vigour and interest on Second Stage. I do not know the answer to that question but I will make a telephone call later to find out the up to date position.

Senator Hayes also made the point, which was echoed by Senator McHugh, that the subject as a whole should be dealt with during Committee and Report Stages rather than looking in isolation at a particular area or particular members of the force. It is not like the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to delay matters so I am sure there is a valid reason for this. I will find out for the Senator.

Senator Ross called for a debate on Aer Lingus and Aer Rianta and made a good case for it. Such a debate would be useful. Senator O'Meara supported the call for such a debate and raised health policy and the hospital consultants. It is interesting that what we presaged in this House last week has come to pass and they appear to be full of trepidation. That is a good thing. I have asked the Tánaiste to come to the House and she has agreed to come the week after next — she is busy next week because the Taoiseach is out of the country. I have not read the Barnardos report on children as carers but I will get it and see if I can put it on the agenda.

Senator Morrissey referred to Mr. Willie Walsh being mugged. It would take a lot to mug him; he is fit from doing the mugging. He is well able to make his own case and would not be put out by whatever was said to him at the committee. I note the Senator's concern but he spoke as if he was outside the Government.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We will certainly have a debate and I look forward to hearing what the Senator has to say on the matter.

Senator Coghlan asked about the infrastructure Bill and who will decide what routes will receive priority and be raised to accelerated status. I will find out about that for him.

I still have the report Senator Norris gave me. This morning another supposedly definitive report states there are no weapons of mass destruction. Some of us in this House said that over a year ago and were derided in some corners. It was, however, true and everything has come to pass as we thought. On the names the Senator passed on to me, the Minister for Defence will investigate whether people were rushed through Shannon and on to an undefined punishment and we will await the outcome of his investigation.

Senator Terry has repeatedly raised the issue of pensions and is correct to do so. During the last session we tried to arrange a debate on this but there is now a new Minister and we will ask him to come to the House and deal with pensions and the related issue of endowment mortgages.

Senator Browne supported the calls for debates on Aer Lingus and on pensions, while Senator Bannon asked about the roll out of broadband and ESB charges. Again, we hope to have the new Ministers come to the House to address these matters. I will endeavour to have them appear one by one.

Senator McHugh echoed the comments made by Senator Brian Hayes about the Garda Síochána Bill. The Morris tribunal is doing good work but it is treating the matter in isolation when it would be useful to treat it as part of the whole. Senator Maurice Hayes also commented on the Garda Síochána Bill. The Senator's presence is of value because he is always able to offer a slant from another jurisdiction, where such a law brought greater transparency to the arena. He also commented on the drugs debate.

I thank Senator Mansergh for his fine contribution. He stated correctly that State ownership is not a limbo. Routes are important and a debate on them has begun, particularly about Shannon Airport. I caught some of Mr. Walsh's contribution yesterday in which questions were raised about whether Shannon Airport is properly served by Aer Lingus. As an island, routes are vital so we should debate the matter.

Senator Cox called for the issues of speech therapy and disabilities to be examined and Senator Feighan raised the matter of drugs. He is passionate about this subject and we hope to have a debate on it in two weeks time.