Seanad debates

Wednesday, 12 May 2004

10:30 am

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the development co-operation objectives of the Irish Presidency of the European Union, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 12.30 p.m, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes, those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of statements; No. 2, Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 2 p.m. and to conclude at 4 p.m.; and No. 18, motion No. 20, to be taken from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. There will be a sos from 12.30 p.m. to 2 p.m.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Government parties on their brass neck in proposing No. 18, motion No. 20. Even when the sun shines, it is thanks to Fianna Fáil.

Photo of Camillus GlynnCamillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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That is true.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Leave us bask in the reflected glory.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I assure them our amendment is equally robust.

I wish to refer to a housekeeping matter. More than three weeks ago, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges reported on Seanad reform proposals. The Leader has done her best to ensure the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government comes to the House to reply to a debate on the proposals. However, if it is proving difficult——

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I have two dates about which I will inform the House later.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I would be grateful to hear them. The matter should be debated, given that the report was published three weeks ago.

It appears likely that AIB's initial estimate of the overcharging of its customers by €14 million was too low and the sum involved is much greater. This bank and others have been ripping off consumers for some time in terms of other charges. Does the Leader agree there is a need to review the regulatory structure that has been put in place and, in particular, to review the law in two areas? There is insufficient sanction for overcharging customers and the boardroom appears to be getting away absolutely scot free. There are no legal obligations on boards to ensure their actions comply with best practice and consumer law. The regulatory structure relating to financial institutions needs to be examined to ensure it is updated to take account of recent developments. Confidence in the banking sector has been sapped over the past few years and there is a need for a debate.

There is also a need for the Government to bring forward its proposals on whistleblowing. Last Friday on the Order of Business, the Leader correctly stated the whistleblowers Bill has been hanging around for the past four years. An opportunity is available to bring it forward in this House to ensure employees are protected when they come forward with information such as this because it would not come into the public domain unless employees took a brave stance. They should be protected in law. Will the Leader, following discussions with her colleagues in Government, bring forward the Bill in this House, given that we have time on our hands to deal with primary legislation?

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I seek a ruling, a Chathaoirligh, regarding this evening's Private Members' motion, which asks us to reaffirm a key objective of Government policy. I am not sure whether, constitutionally or under Standing Orders, it is appropriate for the House to affirm the programme for Government, which is agreed between two parties. I do not know how the House can be brought into that matter. On a more pedantic point, we are being asked to reaffirm this objective. This must be an absolute misnomer because I do not recall the House taking a motion to reaffirm previously. The motion should be ruled out of order and I seek your advice in this regard, a Chathaoirligh.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I have asked on many occasions that Government Private Members' motions should refrain from commending and congratulating members of the Government as it is difficult for Members to look at them through a clean lens. I have never seen such a sycophantic motion in all my time in the House. It opens up new areas. I defer to my colleague, Senator Norris, because I do not know whether there is such a word as "sycophanticism" but if there is not, it should be invented to describe the motion.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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It is even off the Cassidy scale.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Of course, the Opposition never tables condemnatory motions.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We will debate the motion later.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Senator Mansergh looks grossly unhappy.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should ask questions relating to the Order of Business.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I asked previously for an update on the progress being made by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform regarding the new credit card driving licence. New legislation has been enacted and it is a legal imperative that one should carry one's licence at all times while driving. The fact that the licences are made from very soft paper makes it very difficult for people to retain them for ten years. The Government claimed it intended to introduce a credit card size driving licence that would serve the same purpose. The Cathaoirleach will recall that I asked that such a card refer to the licence holder's position on donating organs, but that is not the issue I am raising today. What is the position on the introduction of credit card size driving licences?

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Labour)
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I wish to refer to the pictures emerging from Iraq of abuses of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers and the allegations in the Red Cross report of abuses of Iraqi civilians by British soldiers. The latest image, to be seen in the newspapers today, is of a US civilian being beheaded by representatives of al-Qaeda in Iraq. Apparently, he was detained at one stage by US-backed Iraqi police and his parents feel this played a role in his eventual death. This war has turned out to be a bad mess and a mistake on the part of the United States and the United Kingdom. I hope people remember that the Government did not take a sufficiently strong stand against these countries regarding this war.

I noticed yesterday that the UN Under-Secretary General was in Ireland to lay a wreath at the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, to commemorate the Irish men and women who died on UN service. He said Ireland comes top of the league in terms of peacekeeping roles and he also mentioned there may be a UN role in peacekeeping in Iraq. I hope Ireland assumes this kind of role and passes on its expertise in policing. Will the Leader invite the Minister for Foreign Affairs to the House to discuss our role in this regard and what we can do to get Iraq out of this mess and bring about a peaceful society in that country from which everybody in the world can benefit?

Photo of Ann OrmondeAnn Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I too would like to raise the issue of the horrific picture of the beheading of Mr. Berg, which was broadcast on international channels. Can our Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, or the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, raise this matter at EU level and draw attention to the sensitivity of the pictures and their impact on the public in this country and elsewhere? I had a long discussion on this issue last night and I feel it is the last straw. Will it ever stop? If it is not Americans abusing Iraqis, it is Iraqis abusing Americans. It must stop and we cannot let it continue. This should be conveyed to the highest powers to whom it can be conveyed. Will the Leader do something about it because it is just too much?

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ormonde touched on an issue I wanted to raise. The Iraqi war has sunk to the lowest level of depravity based on the images we are seeing. The person who was beheaded was not even a soldier; he was in Iraq erecting antennae acting on behalf of a contractor. It is sickening.

The Americans, having entered the fray in Iraq on the first day, appear to have gone down a cul-de-sac. It appears they did not have a proper exit strategy. The images of what is happening to prisoners demonstrate that a tit for tat strategy is emerging, which is rather sickening. I also felt nauseous when I heard President Bush defending Mr. Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, in recent times.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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If the conflict was in another part of the world, Mr. Rumsfeld would walk at this stage. This House had a debate on the Iraqi war when it was in its earlier stages. We had different views but at least there was a very reasonable, sensible discussion. However, we should discuss this issue again in the near future.

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I endorse the comments of the previous speakers. I spoke on this issue in the House last week and I ask the Leader again to convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs that the time has come for us to be seen to take action. We should voice our concerns. The Minister should talk to the US ambassador and we should have a commitment from the Government, particularly the Taoiseach, that this matter will be raised with President Bush during his forthcoming visit to Ireland. We need to send out this message clearly because if the United States cannot listen to friends who say the abuses in Iraq are not acceptable, it will listen to no one. We can and should convey our message in a responsible manner. The Irish people demand it. The images are unacceptable.

On the specifics of the issue, there are serious questions to be asked as to the level on which the abuses happened. There is a difference between the behaviour of professional soldiers and that of reservists and those operating under the control of CIA operatives. This point needs to be made and to suggest otherwise is not fair to professionals of good reputation who would not operate in the manner depicted in the images.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I join my colleagues in condemning the abuses evident in the pictures emerging from Iraq. As the House knows, I have been raising these issues for a long time and a considerable majority from all sides of the House feels the same as I do. The matter goes right to the top. If one has a commander in chief who openly states his intention to flout morality and international law and suspend the Geneva Conventions, what can one expect of ordinary soldiers? Many have complained about the images, which are very shocking, but the reality is what really must shock us. The images are only a photographic reflection of what is actually being done on the ground.

I extend my sympathy to the grieving family of the young man who was beheaded. I am sure everybody feels the same about this matter. The man's death was horrifying. He was a contractor. "Contractor" is a word that is attracting sinister connotations because the American Government has been found to contract out torture. It is a disgrace and as bad as anything that happened in the Second World War.

What interested me was what was said by the family of the beheaded man. It accused the American authorities of precisely the same practice to which I referred yesterday and regarding which I handed over documentation to the Leader of the House, namely, the illegal seizure of people and their detention in incorrect circumstances. A report in today's The Irish Times states the man's father "criticised the US military and Bush administration, saying his son might still be alive had he not been detained by US officials in Iraq without being charged and without access to a lawyer". I am very sorry to say this is what one gets when criminality reaches the top branch of the Executive. I hope the Taoiseach, urged on by this House, will raise these matters as an issue of priority.

I return to the question of the banks and the rights of their customers, which the House has been considering. I am concerned about the related issue of the frequent advertisements for shared home investment plans, SHIPs. People over 70 are being urged to surrender a significant part of the equity of their homes in return for a cash grant. There should be a health warning with these plans. I am concerned that elderly people could be persuaded by the soft selling of the banks to give away part of their homes, which could result in them finding themselves in difficulty later on.

I am sorry I did not speak before my colleague, Senator O'Toole, because I am sure he would have a view on the matter I am about to raise. Could we have a discussion in the House on the compensation culture, which is growing? We have had deaf soldiers and, apparently, we are now about to have dumb teachers because they over-use their voices. Their voices become exhausted from talking to and reprimanding students.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I thought Senator Norris was a teacher.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I was and my voice often went hoarse from screeching, but it was part of the job. This matter is a complete and utter nonsense and we should squash it before it gets off the ground. If teachers sue the State for compensation for hoarseness, where will it end? Senator Dardis is correct that I was a teacher. I regularly got hoarse and if they get money, I shall sue as well. I will also sue the Government benches for making me shout.

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Follow that, as they say in the show business world. I endorse all that has been said. However, I am concerned that a trend might develop. I do not doubt Senator Tuffy's contribution on Irish involvement at UN level. The main problem in Iraq at present, however, apart from the horrific images we have seen, is that there is no stability or security. In fact, the United Nations and its personnel are also the targets of insurgents in Iraq. We cannot forget Sergio de Mello and his staff, who were blown up when they were attempting to bring peace, stability and security to Iraq.

The question is what this small country can do to reflect the anger, outrage and frustration expressed in the Chamber this morning. We believe strongly in the multilateral nature of the United Nations. It is incumbent on the Irish Foreign Minister, who, along with the Taoiseach, is constantly conveying the views of the Irish nation under the EU Presidency, to call for an urgent debate in the United Nations. The major powers, particularly America and Britain who are involved in Iraq, are attempting to devise an agreed resolution for the hand-over of sovereignty at the end of June. That hand-over seems to be further away than even they thought it would be. I cannot envisage a hand-over of sovereignty. To whom can it be given?

The best way forward for a small country such as Ireland, which has a strong international profile, is urgently to seek a debate at the United Nations to ensure the voice of the world will not only be directed towards the Americans for the torture that occurred but also towards the appalling imagery we have seen over the past few days. There are two sides to this and one feeds off the other.

I have a brief question about legislation. Can the Leader of the House find out when it is proposed to make a decision on the findings of the independent electoral commission? The proposals of the commission, which have had a strong impact on my county, is to split County Leitrim in two for electoral purposes. There is a strong ground swell of opposition to that proposition on the part of major sporting, cultural and other organisations, including the IFA and the GAA. When will the Government make a decision on the findings of the independent electoral commission?

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader speak to the relevant Minister about fading public confidence in the NCT? A total of 150,000 vehicles have been incorrectly failed. Recently, a person whose car failed the NCT challenged the result and returned to the centre 90 minutes afterwards with verification of the inaccuracy of the machinery being used at the test centre. The decision was overturned. It is most important that the people operating the test centres have proper machinery so confidence in the test can be restored. Vehicle testing is an important aspect of road safety, in view of the slaughter on our roads. It is important that the Minister moves quickly to restore confidence in this area.

In the past few days the Department of Agriculture and Food presented a new REP scheme to the EU. The Minister is the current President of the EU Council of Agriculture Ministers and it is unfortunate that the scheme has been rejected by the Council. If this was a hurriedly revised scheme, that might be acceptable but the introduction of the third REPS has been postponed on numerous occasions. The officials in the Department and the Minister must take the blame for the rejection of the scheme by the EU. The Minister for Agriculture and Food and his officials should immediately produce a suitable scheme and present it again to the Council so the people who are looking forward either to entering the scheme or to continuing the scheme on their farms can be allowed to proceed on that course for the environmental improvement of rural areas.

Photo of Labhrás Ó MurchúLabhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I took a robust stand against the war in Iraq. At the time I said I regarded that war as illegal, immoral and unjustified. That is still the case. I believed the fall out would eventually cast a shadow over us and if there was even a perceived acquiescence on our part with what was happening in Iraq, this nation would suffer internationally. That is what will happen. It will not be sufficient to express our abhorrence every day on the Order of Business at the latest atrocity. We have to be proactive. We must get out from under the umbrella of the United States and Britain and take a stand as a sovereign nation.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Labhrás Ó MurchúLabhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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There is sovereignty and human rights in question. Senator Norris is correct that deep down we all believe the same thing. However, that is not enough. If we do not stand up to be counted on these issues not only will America suffer, but Ireland and the rest of the world will suffer as well. The first step that must be taken is an admission by the United States that it was wrong. We will have to rebuild bridges with an entire community not only in Iraq, but throughout the world. I hope this House will give leadership, as it has done in the past, irrespective of what might not be politically correct.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Give leadership on Shannon too.

Photo of Labhrás Ó MurchúLabhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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We must give leadership now or history will not judge us kindly.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Why was there such a mad rush yesterday to push the Electoral (Amendment) Bill through the House?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That was yesterday's business and cannot be raised now.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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The Senator spoke for too long.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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This type of action damages our democracy——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That was decided yesterday.

11:00 am

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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It undermines people's confidence in our legislative decisions. That is a fact.

I seek a debate on crime. Every day an average of 2,840 crimes are committed in this country. Gun related crime has increased by 50% and theft has increased by 80% since the Government was re-elected. We were promised 2,000 extra gardaí but they have not been appointed. Resources are needed to detect and eliminate crime, but they are not being provided by the Government. The people canvassing in the local and European elections are reminded of this every day. Debates on law and order that last up to half an hour are taking place on the doorsteps. We have plenty of law but little order at present.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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There is little order here as well. A number of Senators are offering. There is a time motion regarding the Order of Business so brevity is required.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Joe Duffy "Liveline" programme yesterday and Senator Norris this morning referred to the shared ownership schemes provided by the Bank of Ireland and other companies. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan, to inform all non-contributory pension holders that they will lose their full pension if they participate in the scheme? It is a short-term gain but a couple could lose up to €18,000 per year.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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That is Government policy.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is not Government policy.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bannon, some Member will lose a chance to contribute on the Order of Business if you do not stop interrupting.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is commercial policy. It is important that the Department of Social and Family Affairs informs such pensioners that they can lose their pension. Again, we owe a debt of gratitude to public service broadcasting. Joe Duffy is more effective than the Opposition in this House.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Members should not mention any names.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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He will be delighted to hear his name mentioned.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator mentioned names previously and discovered the consequences.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Name and shame.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I did; I have personal experience of it. With regard to the banks, I again request that part of the €25 million——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not a matter for this House. It is a matter for the banks.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter for legislation.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should table a motion.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I request that some of the funds be given to the People in Need telethon.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Shame.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is a matter for the company. If the Senator wants to introduce legislation, he should table a motion.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Charlie Bird exposed——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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As I said earlier no names should be mentioned.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I will be very brief, a Chathaoirligh, as I know you are under pressure. In response to what Senator Ó Murchú said, I acknowledge that he was brave during the debate on the Iraqi war more than a year ago. He was brave in conscientiously speaking out on behalf of his constituents against the war in Iraq be it morally or otherwise. We, as a party, believe the UN represented the way forward and I am glad that Senator Mooney has backtracked and agreed with this.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator said he would be brief. We cannot discuss Iraq on the Order of Business.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I would like to expand further on Senator Ó Murchú's point in stating the Americans must acknowledge their responsibility. The British must also acknowledge their responsibility. As one brought up close to the Border, I know that some British soldiers in Northern Ireland were involved in internment, interrogation and arresting and abusing innocent people. Any true democrat in this country who backed the British involvement in the war in Iraq has blood on their hands.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I support those who have raised the banking issues. I wish to take a slightly different angle. We should have a debate on a number of regulatory authorities, including the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority. The discovery of the scandal at AIB came about as a result of a whistleblower rather than anything the regulatory authority did. The Government seems to have a propensity to establish these authorities. Last week I called for a debate on the National Roads Authority, which has a number of issues that should be addressed. Exorbitant legal fees have never been tackled by the Competition Authority. We should have a debate perhaps on individual authorities and perhaps on the broader issue of the propensity of the Executive to establish authorities to distance functions from itself.

I support the call for a debate on Iraq, which is overdue. I would like to see a stronger condemnatory approach taken by the Government, particularly towards——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Five or six Senators are offering and I will not be able to let them all contribute.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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——the appalling incidents we have recently seen on television. I agree with the call by Senator Mooney and others for a greater involvement by the UN, which we should debate in the House.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I support all that Senator Ó Murchú said. Having been in Washington recently, I do not believe even the powers of persuasion of the Taoiseach could get President Bush to agree he had been wrong. While there I saw a retired army general say on television that President Bush should declare a victory and come home at once. Perhaps we should encourage this. They could claim that they have put Saddam Hussein out of power and the job is done. They could come home before there are any further atrocities.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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What about the oil?

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Regarding banks over charging, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service will invite senior AIB executives to appear before it. We all remember that ten or 12 years ago when the DIRT problem arose, those who brought the problem to the attention of senior management were rubbished and pushed aside.

The wording of Private Members' motions before this House is a matter for each party.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It is a matter for Senators' conscience.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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We are as entitled to commend the Government——

(Interruptions).

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole should take some credit as a leading social partner for the developments that have taken place in the economy.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Unfortunately all the credit was in the one direction.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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More than a week ago I condemned Allied Irish Banks for robbing its customers, which is exactly what has happened. I warned that the banks will give a goodwill gesture and unfortunately people, like a small shopkeeper as I was, will accept the money. The Government has accepted a goodwill deposit of €25 million. When will it stop acting like a small shopkeeper and lead the country? The banks have robbed people and I want the Government to introduce legislation to ensure they are prosecuted.

I add to Senator Ulick Burke's condemnation of the National Car Test centres. There is much inconsistency in the results. The Minister for Transport should come to the House and state why a circular has been sent to all the National Car Test centres stating that if their——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's time has concluded.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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This is a very serious issue. If the car test fail rate falls below 44%, they write to all the car test centres asking them to try to raise it to more than 60%. This serious issue must be addressed by the Minister for Transport.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I must apologise to the remaining Senators who are offering, as the time will not allow me to accept their contributions. If I had received more co-operation from those who spoke on the Order of Business, I would have been able to facilitate them. Substantive issues cannot be discussed adequately on the Order of Business. Members should table a motion that such debate take place in an orderly and appropriate manner.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes, the Leader of the Opposition, talked about the brass neck of Fianna Fáil. We are very pleased with the progress we have made as a Government and hence we are very pleased to table our motion. The annual rate of inflation is down and everybody wants to speak tonight on this very fine motion.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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There will be no guillotine tonight.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We have much good news. The Senator asked when we would debate Seanad reform proposals. Yesterday, I spoke to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen. Part of our time on Tuesday, 25 May and Wednesday, 26 May will be allocated to this debate and the hours will be arranged soon. I understand the Minister will attend and he has put this in his diary.

The Senator mentioned AIB and the regulatory structure, and asked about the whistleblowers Bill, which is contained in An Agreed Programme for Government. While I do not know what stage of drafting it has reached, we should inquire and have the chance to debate it.

Senator O'Toole spoke about the Private Members' motion, which he called——

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Sycophantic.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We believe it is wonderful. It is great to blow one's own trumpet occasionally. The Senator also spoke about the credit card-sized driving licence incorporating the organ donor card. I will inquire about this.

Senator Tuffy spoke about the pictures from Iraq, which are terrible. We are endeavouring to have a debate. Different aspects of this matter have been raised today, including the need for the UN to have a debate. Such a debate could start at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. Senator Ormonde said the pictures were awful. However, this is the only way we can know what is happening. While I know it is almost pornographic as they are so frightful, without them we would not know what is happening. These pictures have the power to affront.

Senator Finucane referred to Mr. Donald Rumsfeld and the avowal of support which he received from President Bush. While that was an internal US matter, it was sick-making to witness. Senator Minihan raised an interesting point. I agree there must be a public and official disapproval and disavowal of what is happening in Iraq. It is odd that there is not a united voice of disapproval around the country. It would be very helpful if there were. As Senator Minihan says, the events at Abu Ghraib detract strongly from the professionalism of the soldiers serving in Iraq. Senator Norris was correct to assert that the USA is contracting out torture. That is exactly what is being done. It is difficult to imagine that one could privatise torture.

Senator Norris also raised the matter of the shared home investment plans which I have raised myself. I received verbal communication from one of the auctioneering firms which was somewhat involved in the scheme's promotion. It is terrible. People do not seem to understand that this involves one's non-contributory pension being taken from one. While one receives a lump sum into one's hand, given that one cannot know how long one's life will be or how one's circumstances will change, the scheme is quite immoral. The Senator also spoke about the compensation culture and teachers. While I have a sore throat and laryngitis, it is from canvassing rather than the result of what I did in the classroom.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Sue Bertie.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The teachers are unlikely to sue. I am sure this is a bit of a tall tale.

Senator Mooney made the sensible suggestion that the Department of Foreign Affairs should call for a UN debate. I understand that multilateralism is an objective of the Irish Presidency of the EU. Senator Mooney asked when legislation on a boundary commission would be brought forward. I do not know, but I will inquire.

Senator Ulick Burke raised the matter of the national car test which people are raising with politicians. While I am not aware whether the 44% to 60% is an official benchmark, I have been told that it is not enough for a car to pass the test, it must receive honours in marking terms. The Senator also referred to the new REP scheme about which no one seems to have any information. This year, €60 million was ear-marked for REPS III.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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It was rejected.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I did not see in any newspaper that anything had been turned down by Europe.

I always admired Senator O'Murchú's stance on the Iraq war. I used the words "illegal", "immoral" and "unjust" and I got a wigging, conveyed to me through a third party as The Irish Times was good enough to print what I had said. It printed what the Senator said too. It was conveyed to me that there was displeasure and I am sure that was also directed at Senator Ó Murchú.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Who said it?

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bannon said the Electoral (Amendment) Bill was being rushed through the House. Senators had all day and night to discuss it. We exercised great patience with the Senator in this regard.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That matter was agreed on the Order of Business yesterday and that is that. There is no need to elaborate further.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator asked for a crime debate. I admire his industry.

Senator Leyden spoke about the loss of pensions due to the shared home investment plans. He is correct and I will convey what he said to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan. These people are preying on older people who they invite to go on holiday to Bermuda where they can share a glass of wine. In the next instant, they have their house. It is almost as precipitous as that.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is daylight robbery.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader, without interruption.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator McHugh's comments on those people who have blood on their hands. Senator Walsh called for debates on the regulatory authorities and Iraq. Senator Henry said President Bush should be told to bring his troops home. What is happening in Iraq now is worse than what they found when they went in.

Senator Mansergh said the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service has invited or ordered AIB to send representatives to appear before it. I hope that happens soon. Senator Feighan repeated the accusation of robbery against the banks in respect of what they have perpetrated.

Order of Business agreed to.