Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion referred to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, which has completed its deliberations, concerning the improvement of operational co-operation between member states in implementing measures on the shared organisation of joint flights for the removal and return of illegally resident third country nationals, to be taken without debate – I will comment on this prior to concluding the Order of Business; No. 2, motion referred to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, which has completed its deliberations, concerning the establishment between member states of a means of establishing mutual support and assistance in implementing return and readmission measures for the removal of illegally resident third country nationals in cases of transit by land, to be taken without debate; No. 3, a referral motion, where the subject matter of Nos. 12 and 13 will be referred to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, concerning the application of the principle of mutual recognition to financial penalties and the confiscation of crime related proceeds, instruments and property imposed by member states, to be taken without debate; No. 4, statements on the tourism policy review group, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1 p.m, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed eight minutes, Senators may share time and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements; No. 5, statements on stem cell research, to be taken at 2 p.m. and to conclude not later than 5 p.m, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes, Senators may share time and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of statements; and No. 17, motion No. 29, to be taken between 5 p.m. and 7p.m. There will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Leader on the manner in which she so speedily arranged a debate on stem cell research. I thank her for placing it on the Order Paper today. Will she check if it is possible for the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to take questions on the matter? While statements are a very important means of enabling people to state their positions, it would be useful if questions were allowed. There is a facility for that, as the Cathaoirleach is aware. We are in a situation where the Government intends to support the proposal for stem cell research on 27 November despite the fact that, on two separate occasions, a committee has urged the Government not to take that position. Are we left in a legal limbo, where various positions taken by our Government would not have the support of a plenary session of either House of the Oireachtas or a committee? We need to clarify that before the Tánaiste contributes to that very important debate.

When does the Leader intend to arrange a full debate on the proposed Book of Estimates produced by the Government last week? It is now clear that the least well-off in our society will pay for the economic blundering of the Government. For some months, we on this side of the House have argued that if the benchmarking award is paid, the least well-off will have to pay for it. That has now come to pass. Those in the trade union movement, particularly SIPTU which, last Friday, launched another spate of bellyaching over the current round of cuts, must share some of the responsibility in this regard. If €1.6 billion is to be spent next year on pay awards, it is inevitable there will be less money for health and education. There is a collective responsibility for the cutbacks which are now being foisted by the Government on the people. Those who argue for benchmarking should share responsibility for the cuts.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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If we paid people the level of wages in the Far East and refused to pay our workers, we could probably do much more with the money. However, that is not how the world works.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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That is not relevant and the Senator knows it.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole, on the Order of Business please.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Earlier this year, I raised the issue of the various reports on the medical services, including the Hanly and Brennan reports, before they were published. At that stage, I requested a debate where people could establish their positions on the matter, rather than taking up political positions afterwards. We had a debate and people said what they had to say. However, the matter is now bringing politics in general into disrepute. Nobody can blame local politicians, from either side of the House, for defending their own patch, but the only way we will ever deal with this matter is to take ourselves out of the equation. It will only be addressed if a new group, for example, is set up and we agree that it will decide issues and we will implement them. Otherwise, there will be no answers.

I have full sympathy for those who defend their areas – I would do the same – but I cannot see how the matter will be sorted out if we constantly have to look at local arrangements. We are elected to represent either a constituency or a broader group and we are required to defend our people by commenting on the relevant issues. However, we will never get a health service moving forward in this way.

On a related topic, I was glad to hear a representative of the Fine Gael Party making it clear on "Morning Ireland" recently that the proposed development charges had nothing to do with the payment of benchmarking awards. It is good that this is fully and clearly understood. It is another issue on which we should be open and honest. I paid a development charge 30 years ago – I had to pay the ESB to put up four poles to supply my house. A woman from Kerry told me she had to pay €7,000 to have her new house connected to the sewerage system last year. There is nothing new about development charges. What we have to consider is how the money is earmarked and directed and ensure that it is used properly, rather than pretending it is something new. It is not new, but the ordinary taxpayer should not be required to pay for development to create greater profits for builders than they are already making. We need to take a firm and positive line on those issues.

With regard to the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill, which will be before the House this week, I wish to declare an interest as a member of that board. The chairperson of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, Ms Dorothea Dowling, will be available in Leinster House 2000 at 5 p.m. to brief Members who will be speaking on that issue during the week and also to neutralise some of the misinformation and downright lies that have been spread about the proposals in the bill.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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I support the fact the Leader has organised a debate on stem cell research. I also support the calls for the Tánaiste to come into the House to engage with Members in questions and answers at the conclusion of the debate. The Tánaiste will make a major decision on 26 or 27 November in Brussels. That decision will allow European Union taxpayers' money to be spent on embryonic stem cell research. I believe, and it has been the contention of many Members in recent weeks, that there is no clear mandate from either House of the Oireachtas on this issue. I thank the Leader for organising that debate.

I cannot accept criticism of the trade unions in regard to benchmarking. We must not lose sight of the fact that is a contract that was negotiated by the Government and the trade unions.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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And business.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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That agreement needs to be honoured.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Pay awards for cutbacks was the trade off.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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It is beyond me how the Leader of the main Opposition party in this House can complain about trade unions and benchmarking in this manner.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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This matter is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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A serious potato disease, ring rot disease, which has the capability of destroying up to 50% of a potato crop, is raging in Wales. I call on the Leader to make a statement or to get confirmation from the Minister on what measures are in place to prevent an outbreak of that disease here. If adequate measures are not in place whereby imports can be checked and cleared on entry here, I will call for a ban on imports until such time as those measures are in place.

What is the status of the Hanly report? It was publicly criticised by a senior Cabinet Minister last week.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot discuss the Hanly report now. A debate has been called for on it and all aspects of it can be discussed at that time.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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Will the recommendations of the report be introduced?

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It is back on the table.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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Will the report be defended in its entirety by the Government?

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, would welcome a broad debate on the Estimates. Absurd and misleading arguments have been made in recent months on the subject of benchmarking, which amounts to only €305 million. I have not done the calculation, but that is a very small percentage.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should not be confrontational.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It is the people who will pay for it.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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In any public service it is the people who matter more than anything else.

(Interruptions).

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It is the people who will pay for it, that is the problem.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The House must respect the right of a Senator to make his contribution.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I notice the social welfare Estimate will be discussed this evening but a characteristic of it is that most of the main social welfare announcements are made in the budget. Therefore, one is looking at only one part of the picture. It seems people want to deny any Minister for Social and Family Affairs the right to make readjustments in existing schemes, but one will not be able to judge the social welfare Estimate until the budget.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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They are cutbacks, not adjustments. The last person who made cutbacks got into a good deal of trouble.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Local government is in crisis.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That has nothing to do with the Order of Business. Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I do. I want the Leader to invite into the House at the earliest opportunity the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, to address the serious concerns at local authority level regarding the deficit in funding requirements in local government. Local authorities will not be in a position to pass their estimates over the next few months because of the clawback in capital funding from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Stealth taxes are being introduced on a daily basis and there has been a withdrawal of funding from the Department.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is sufficient. The Senator cannot debate the matter now. I call Senator Feeney.

Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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My voice would not be as strong as Senator Bannon's.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.

Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I join Senator Brian Hayes and Senator McCarthy in asking the Leader to invite the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, to take questions, either before or after her address, on stem cell research. It is a complex issue. Senior medical professionals inform us that stem cells from adults are equally beneficial, if not better, than those from embryos. We need guidance on that aspect. It may not come out in a presentation, but it would emerge in questions.

David Norris (Independent)
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The Leader gave a degree of explanation on Nos. 1 and 2. However, there should be more explanation, if not further discussion, on this matter. I am worried about taking without discussion in this Parliament an initiative of the Italian Republic involving adopting a Council decision on the organisation of joint flights in the removal of third country nationals illegally present and so forth. I am not in favour of taking without discussion anything that emerges from Mr. Berlusconi's one-stop-shop, particularly with regard to refugees' human rights. A distinguished international figure expressed concern that people may now be returned to Iraq on the basis that authorities are pretending it is now a safe country. I propose an amendment that there should be a short discussion of Nos. 1 and 2 to ensure further explanation. It is not enough for a committee to look over this material.

I congratulate Senator Brian Hayes on his neat footwork in introducing the question of cuts against the disadvantaged and his call for a debate on the issue. This is the substance of the Labour Party's motion for Private Members' business this evening. However, Senator Brian Hayes knows that the Order of Business may be reported, but the media does not pay the slightest attention to anything after 5 o'clock. Fair play to him for grabbing the ball and running with it. That is the kind of politics we all appreciate in this House.

I join those who expressed considerable surprise that the Minister for Defence, Deputy Michael Smith, is still a member of the Cabinet.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.

David Norris (Independent)
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It raises the question of the breaching of Cabinet responsibility.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Cabinet has nothing to do with the Order of Business.

David Norris (Independent)
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In a Government that had firm leadership, his seat would not have touched the carpet on the way out through the door. It is unfair on his constituency colleagues.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?

David Norris (Independent)
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I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh, but I cannot hear you.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is it the loudness of your own voice that prevents you from hearing me?

David Norris (Independent)
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No, it was my unruly colleagues. I have the greatest sympathy for you, a Chathaoirligh.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?

David Norris (Independent)
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Yes.

We should also look at the granting of academic qualifications – not that I have very many – because I was offered a few more in an e-mail this morning from a group that said academic qualifications are available from prestigious, non-accredited universities. They include Bachelors, Masters and PhD degrees in any field, with no examinations, classes or textbooks required. The advertisement ends with a request to telephone to register and receive these qualifications within days. It devalues the whole notion of academic qualifications. A number of these agencies create titles that suggest a closeness and relationship to distinguished third level institutions in this country. It is unfair and the House should examine it.

Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, is revising planning legislation. It is important that we have a debate on the role of An Bord Pleanála because there are serious examples from all parts of the country of how it operates. What is the composition of An Bord Pleanála? We have received serious complaints about it and we should debate the matter in this House to tease out where the problems are arising. Should An Bord Pleanála be part of local government or separate from it? It would be useful to the Minister to have such a debate before he amends planning legislation.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I would like the Minister for Finance to raise an issue with the banks as a matter of urgency. Credit card scams are estimated to cost about €10 million a year. The banking institutions have promised to introduce changes to PINs and various security protection measures to make credit cards foolproof in the future. Those advances are being made in the UK and it is widely anticipated problems will escalate in this country if we do not take immediate action. While the banks plan to do this in 2005, the Minister should stress the urgency of doing so as quickly as possible. Cloned credit cards are available among the criminal fraternity for €120. This problem has recently received sharp focus in the media. The Leader should ask the Minister for Finance to request that the banks move on this as a matter of priority.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I have raised this matter before. It appears that because of the practice of spiking drinks in many discos and nightclubs the patrons are afraid to leave their drinks and have to take them into the toilets with them. It is awful that they have to do so. An individual who commits an act of this kind against anybody else should be subject to a mandatory prison sentence with hard labour. This is a terrible crime and I call for an early debate on the matter.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I second the amendment to the Order of Business as proposed by Senator Norris to allow a short debate on No. 1. It is not clear whether Irish citizens no matter how young may also be deported on these flights.

I draw the Leader's attention to the very short notice we were given of the publication of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill, which is to be debated here tomorrow. I am sure it is not the Leader's fault that we have had such short notice. It is extraordinary that this is coming up tomorrow whereas at the same time we have been waiting nine months for Committee Stage of the Criminal Law (Insanity) Bill. As Senators will remember we had the Second Stage debate in February. Even more interestingly we also had the Second Stage of the Maternity Protection (Amendment) Bill in February. A woman who might not have been a bit interested in it then might be very interested in it now. What has happened to these two very important Bills?

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I am concerned over last week's disturbance in Mountjoy Prison, which caused serious upset and distress to many of the prison officers involved. This, along with other prison and prison officer issues, needs to be discussed in the House. I call on the Leader to ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to address these issues here and to outline for us his plans for the prisons and the prison officers.

I also call on the Leader to ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come clean and say whether he had anything to do with the removal of security from the journalist, Paul Williams, who is now out of his house because that security has been removed from him. It is very serious to withdraw security from somebody in that type of work who is in danger of attack from many known criminals.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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I seek the guidance of the Chair on whether it is in order for me to agree with the suggestion of Senator Norris that the Minister for Defence, Deputy Michael Smith, should resign.

David Norris (Independent)
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Yes it is.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The guidance is that this is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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I will not say it then. This brings me to the health issue raised by Senator O'Toole. It is a serious issue, which should be debated in this House. I fundamentally disagree with the Senator about taking issues such as this away from this House or from democratic institutions. It may be a matter of regret when Ministers want to go on solo runs. The idea that vital policy issues should not be dealt with by politicians is completely anathema to the democratic process. There is a danger that if we go down that road we will hand more power to Senator O'Toole's friends in the trade unions. Social partnership will take over and we will hand that to them, and they will make decisions they are already making on an issue which has previously been raised in this House, namely benchmarking. On that, while not wishing to re-open the issue, it is absurd for a Senator to maintain it only costs €310 million. That is inaccurate and is complete nonsense. It is a vast sum of money—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think we can discuss the merits of—

Shane Ross (Independent)
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We are not going to, Cathaoirleach, because mine is the last speech. It is nearly 11 o'clock. It is a vast sum of money, which could be used for all sorts of other priorities which do not involve a cheap gibe from the Labour benches, or remarks of that sort. We should be able to say courageously, as Senator Brian Hayes and his party has said, that public servants are a privileged group and that they are doing very well. The cost of this will go on for many years to come and it will be at the expense of far more deserving causes.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear. It is a waste of money.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Last week we saw in the Estimates that various Ministers and Departments have reduced substantially their dependence on consultants for reports they had commissioned over the years. The Minister of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has engaged engineering consultants MCOS to study on a county by county basis the conditions of the substandard roads and the potholes throughout the country. If at this stage a Minister has to engage consultants it is nothing more than a slap on the wrist for the management of local authorities and their engineering staff that have programmes planned for every county and various initiatives in hand in terms of roads, water and sewerage. Once more we see this Minister taking power to himself, for some reason or other, which he has lost in other areas. He appears to be saying that local authorities and management at local level do not have the capacity to assess programme needs. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to this House to explain this absolute wilful waste of scarce finances.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I strongly agree with the remarks of my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, as regards stem cell research and thank the Leader for arranging for statements on the matter this afternoon. I am concerned about collective Cabinet decision making and that our constitutional position is being disregarded, downplayed or whatever. If the Tánaiste can vote on this matter shortly in Europe, when an Oireachtas committee has unanimously decided that this should not happen – I do not know what discussion has taken place within Government—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That question will be debated and those points can be addressed.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I would like a debate on the matter in the other House as well as here. Will the Tánaiste take questions on this important subject this afternoon? We have not had a Green Paper or a position on it. I am grateful, as is Senator Brian Hayes and other Members, that the Leader has managed to arrange this so promptly. Will she respond—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That question has already been asked.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I would say she will if she—

Michael Brennan (Fianna Fail)
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As regards the Minister of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the study of the non-national road network, Senators should welcome any such review. We all remember a time when non-national roads were in a bad state and I am sure the Opposition made noises then as well. They are now in a good state. We should ask the Minister, if he is coming to the House, about staffing levels as regards such work. The staff of the national roads design team has been reduced to about a third. The Minister should bring up employment levels, especially for major projects under the national roads programme to meet the needs of the national development plan.

John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I join other speakers in thanking the Leader for the opportunity to debate stem cell research. I urge the Tánaiste to consider the views of the Oireachtas committee, the House and, more importantly, the constitutional position, in addition to the views of the Medical Council.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste will be present in the House for the debate on stem cell research.

John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Will she take questions?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader of the Opposition, Senator Brian Hayes, asked if the Tánaiste would take questions during this afternoon's debate on stem cell research. I do not know, but I will find out. The request presented to the Tánaiste's office was for a debate. I note the other House sought a similar debate yesterday, but it was not granted. Perhaps a debate will take place there at some stage. However, I do not wish to talk about the other House.

Senator Brian Hayes also asked about the Book of Estimates. We hope to have a debate on this matter next Wednesday. It is scheduled for then and we await confirmation. He also alleged that everybody is now paying for the benchmarking agreement reached with the trade unions.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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Not all of us.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I said "we".

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader without interruption.

David Norris (Independent)
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I just cash the cheques, with reservations like Mr. de Valera.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader to continue without interruption.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps I did not make the appropriate gesture, implying "we" all do.

David Norris (Independent)
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The Leader should be careful or we might respond with the appropriate gesture.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Mansergh said we had not yet seen the social welfare Estimate which will add considerably to the amount of funding the Minister for Social and Family Affairs has obtained.

Senator Bannon referred to the deficit in funding at local authority level and the degree to which stealth taxes have been introduced. Senator Feeney also requested that the Tánaiste reply to questions during the stem cell research debate.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That matter was ruled out of order.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The academic qualifications which Senator Norris said could be obtained without study sound amazing.

Senator Ormonde called for a debate on An Bord Pleanála to discuss contentious decisions it is making. She asked that the debate take place before the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government concludes his study of the issue.

Senator Finucane referred to the security measures of UK banks. He said we should ask financial institutions here to make decisions on the matter quickly. Senator Glynn referred to the spiking of drinks in discos and asked that mandatory sentencing be introduced in respect of this crime. Senators Henry and Norris spoke about the bringing forward of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill at short notice. Ms Dorothea Dowling's briefing would be very useful to the Senators. Senator Henry also pointed out that Committee Stages of the Criminal Law (Insanity) Bill and the Maternity Protection (Amendment) Bill have been delayed inordinately. We hope the maternity legislation will be ready next week.

Senator Terry raised the matter of disturbances at Mountjoy Prison. She asked that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform be invited to speak to the House about the matter and to discuss also the issue of security at the home of Paul Williams. Senator Ross agreed with Senator Norris about the Hanly report and said the right of local people to debate matters which affect their local communities should not be taken away. The Senator said the sum involved in benchmarking was vast and that the public service was a privileged group.

Senator Ulick Burke said the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government had engaged consultants to look at secondary and non-national roads and to provide him with a full report on potholes etc. That is a great idea.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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If we could get more money as a result of the consultants' report, it would be very worthwhile. Senator Brennan would welcome, as would I, a debate on non-national roads

Senator Coghlan raised the matter of stem cell research and spoke about collective Cabinet decision making. He asked if the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment would take questions in the House. Senator Hanafin also raised the matter of stem cell research and said the views of the Irish Medical Council should be taken into account.

David Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is Senator Norris to press his proposed amendment?

David Norris (Independent)
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In view of the Leader's valuable suggestion and in order to avoid wasting time, I will withdraw it.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I forgot to mention one matter which I am sure the Cathaoirleach would like to know. It is Senator Kieran Phelan's birthday.

(Interruptions).

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure the matter is relevant to the Order of Business.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It is also Senator Ulick Burke's birthday.

Order of Business agreed to.