Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re establishment of the all-party committee on the Constitution as a joint committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas to enable the committee, which has been examining the issue of property rights, to hold public hearings and have such hearings covered by privilege, as was the case in May 2000 when it was formally constituted as a joint committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas to facilitate public hearings on the medical aspects of the abortion issue, to be taken without debate; No. 2, Taxi Regulation Bill 2003 – Committee Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude not later than 4.15 p.m.; No. 3, Digital Hub Development Agency Bill 2002 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil]– Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 4.15 p.m. and conclude not later than 5 p.m.; No. 4, Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Bill 2002 – Committee Stage, to be taken at 5 p.m. and conclude not later than 7 p.m.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I wish to bring to the Leader's attention the Immigration Bill 2002. She will be aware that the House discussed all aspects and Stages of the Bill some time ago and that it is still with the Dáil. However, I understand that last evening, at the dead of night, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform published a raft of amendments to the Bill, many of which are expressly against the interests of those seeking refugee protection in this country. I understand the Human Rights Commission has highlighted many aspects of the amendments that, in its view, are draconian, unfair and against the interests of those attempting to have their claim for refugee status properly assessed.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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There was.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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As I did not see it in the newspaper I read, the Senator might refer to it. We need to debate an issue in the House that causes such a large group to take to the streets.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I support what Senator Brian Hayes said about the Immigration Bill. It has been very good that the Leader has managed to have so much legislation initiated in the House and most would agree that it has been well debated. However, it is treating the House shabbily if a Bill is changed completely at short notice. As I could not obtain a copy of the amendments tabled on Report Stage in the Dáil, I do not know what they are like.

The Human Rights Commission has alerted all of us to its alarm about some of the amendments, one of which horrifies me because it introduces again this issue of a safe country of origin. It is not that long ago that I tried to have doctors from Iraq given sanctuary here because their lives were in danger there because they would not perform operations such as amputating limbs of deserters. I was told in response to my efforts that Iraq was a perfectly safe place. Some years later, half the world had to invade and occupy the country.

I know it must be irritating for some Ministers to have to bring legislation before the Houses of the Oireachtas but there are good ideas on all sides of the Seanad on these issues. I am surprised Fianna Fáil Members would put up with this because they put a great deal of work into the Immigration Bill. I am sure it is not just Members on this side of the House who are horrified by what is happening with the Bill.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I agree with my colleagues on the Immigration Bill. No amount of talk of reforming the Oireachtas will have any meaning if this scale of legislative gazumping can be imposed on us without proper debate. These amendments will be subject to a truncated debate in the other House and we will have to discuss them as one in this House, even though, as I understand it, they represent multiple pages of an increase in the size of the Bill. I am concerned about the Bill and the way in which this House deals with amendments to legislation made in the other House. That second debate, however, can be conducted in another forum.

I am proposing an amendment to the Order of Business – that No. 6 on the list of papers laid before the Seanad in today's Order Paper be discussed first. This paper deals with the Freedom of Information Act 1997 (Fees) Regulations 2003. We are now in the extraordinary position where to appeal a decision of a Department, citizens will have to pay one of the highest charges in the developed world. If I seek information under the Freedom of Information Act, I now have to pay €15. That is affordable, no matter what my opinion about such a charge is. If a junior civil servant refuses that request, I then have to pay €75 to have a senior civil servant to review that decision. If the senior civil servant refuses the request, I then have to pay €140 to appeal to the Information Commissioner. In a week where we have been deprived of access to the correspondence between Mr. Justice Flood and the Government because of the filleting of the Freedom of Information Act, it is adding insult to injury to introduce a system of fees. I propose that this item be taken first today because it is a matter of considerable importance.

Last week the European Union signed an extradition agreement with the United States. I do not remember voting on any EU treaty which conferred that right on the European Union but no doubt it was done at Intergovernmental Council level. One of the consequences of that agreement is to facilitate US-EU police co-operation. I did not know the European Union had a police force and would like the Government to tell the House what this means. We did not agree in any treaty to an EU-wide police force. It is extraordinary that the European Union will have a level of co-operation with US police forces greater than the co-operation between police forces within the Union.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am no great fan of the Taoiseach politically, or of the party he represents, but this was an outrageous intrusion into an entirely private matter where, even though there may be an enormous degree of prurience, there is absolutely no public interest involved.

Two weeks ago I called for the sacking of the Rail Procurement Agency. Everything I have learned since confirms my view which I repeat now that the agency serves no purpose and should be sacked.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Many Senators are offering. I ask them to be conscious of the fact that there is a time limit and be as brief as possible.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to bring to the attention of the House the grossly offensive advertisement by Michael O'Leary of Ryanair in relation to the Taoiseach which goes beyond all reasonable representations that can be made. I regard it as thuggery and bully-boy tactics on the part of Mr. O'Leary and Ryanair. I have lodged an official complaint with the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That has nothing to do with the Order of Business, Senator Leyden.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It has.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It has not. Have you a question for the Leader?

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I have.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Put the question.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to discuss this matter or arrange to have it considered from a legislative point of view because it appears there is no control on this gentleman in relation to these advertisements.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot discuss the gentleman here. With all due respects, Senator Leyden, there is a mechanism in place for dealing with that matter.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I want to make the point in relation to tourism. Will the Leader allow me to raise it in the context of a debate on a tourism Bill?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It is I who would allow it.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, a Chathaoirligh, I ask you to allow me to request a debate on tourism.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I will allow the Senator to ask the Leader.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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You are confusing me now.

David Norris (Independent)
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Surely not.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I would prefer if I were confusing you rather than you confusing me.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with that. Ryanair would have better assisted tourism by accommodating a twinning between a town in France, Chartres, and Roscommon last weekend. It refused to allow two members to travel on the plane at Chartres—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden, that is not allowed. Individual passenger policy cannot be discussed.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It insisted that they would need another seat for the accordion.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is a private company. I am calling the next speaker.

(Interruptions).

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader referred to the establishment of a committee on the Constitution. What plans, if any, does the Government have in regard to any other committees? Mention was made of two other possible committees, one on competitiveness and I forget the other one. Perhaps the Leader might like to avail of the opportunity to respond in that regard.

On what day this week will we have the necessary resolution appointing Mr. Justice Alan Mahon as chairman of the tribunal investigating planning matters and Mr. Keys as a member of the tribunal, now that Mr. Justice Feargus Flood has begun his well-deserved retirement? I am sure we all wish him well in that regard.

On the matter raised by Senator Leyden, I wonder how either felt about being replaced—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not appropriate.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It is very difficult to follow that. In the week in which the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism travels to America to try to improve Ireland's competitiveness – I am sure all sides of the House wish him well in that regard – will the Leader reflect on reports in the national media this morning relating to a submission from RTE to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, seeking a special licence fee which would apply to bed and breakfast establishments and hotels, apart from a range of other establishments? I raise this matter because it is part of the wider issue of Ireland's competitiveness. Perhaps the Leader will consider having a debate on Ireland's competitiveness in the new session in the autumn and on the international image of Ireland which could be even further eroded as a result of submissions such as this one.

I understand RTE is doing this because it is looking for more money. I declare an interest as my mother has a bed and breakfast establishment and the suggestion is that an extra licence would be necessary if there are two televisions in the rooms. Anyone who has stayed in hotels will realise there are already serious costs associated with tuning in to a television in a hotel room. The free to air channels are available but if someone wants to watch any of the movies, it is very expensive. It is like making telephone calls from hotel rooms.

I suggest the Minister should push this issue further down his priority list and that the Leader should consider having a debate on the competitive nature of Irish society. It seems to me that there are elements in Irish society that are living in a parallel world. They are not living in the real world. If we lose our competitiveness there will be serious economic repercussions that will damage the international image of Ireland. I hope the Leader will give this some consideration. It does not just cover one Department but several.

David Norris (Independent)
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I second the amendment to the Order of Business put forward by Senator Brendan Ryan. We are beginning to see a little abuse of democracy here, with the legislation that has already been referred to and the question of the human and civil rights of asylum seekers and immigrants. In the case of the Freedom of Information Act, which was widely discussed this morning on the radio, there can be costs of up to €250 in accumulated charges for an individual to get information. That is not giving people democratic access to information. I deplore it.

I also agree with the various people who mentioned Luas and the Rail Procurement Agency – I think it was Senator Ryan. It is absolutely extraordinary. Even The Irish Times has woken up to its farcical nature. There are two separate Luas lines with different gauges and there are also different vehicles. They then have this crowd Connex running it. I presume the name refers to connection, despite the fact that the two sets of lines do not connect. They cannot integrate with anything. Certainly the first part of the name is accurate – it is a "con" all right. They have been got rid of in England for reasons of financial probity. We should wake up in this country and install the underground.

It would be very useful if we had even a brief debate on the proposed changes to the tax regime for the film industry, which earns a lot of money for talented people in this country. We are a prime location and I am afraid the Government is going to kill the goose that lays the golden egg if it removes this tax support that exists in all the other competing locations for films.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I support the call for a debate on radio licences. We will have to revisit this with a great deal more urgency and vigour than we have already seen. There is a perceived arrogance at the moment, relating to a certain echelon telling the rest of the country what they should listen to and what aspirations they should have.

What worries me is the emergence of new monopolies that are growing by the day. We have seen the example of Scottish Radio Holdings and their pervasive investing in the country. It is only one more aspect of globalisation. What is happening at the moment, in the present debate and in the surveys that we have heard about, is that people are being classified like cattle at a mart. We have to take a stand on this. The airwaves belong to the people of Ireland. This House will have to play a more central role in this debate.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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On the matter that Senator Norris has mentioned, in view of the fact that 80% of the activity in the Irish film industry would disappear if section 481 were removed, and considering the fact that the Government gets a three to one return on its investment from this industry, will the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism come into the House and explain to us the Government's policy on the Irish film industry, as well as its policy on the protection of thousands of jobs in this industry?

I refer also to the Freedom of Information Act, an issue raised by Senator Brian Hayes. It seems moves are afoot to place every obstacle in the way of those seeking information. The proposed charges inflict another burden. Is the Government afraid of accountability or trying to suppress it in every way possible?

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Of course, it is.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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This appears to be the position and I call for an explanation.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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A motion has been proposed on the issue.

John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I seek time to debate the issue of super-pubs. The Celtic tiger has had many benefits but the development of super-pubs marks a departure from tradition and fosters our culture of drinking. Pubs were intended to be public houses, not public warehouses. It is of no benefit to society when it becomes impossible for barpersons to monitor how much drink patrons are consuming. Some public houses may even disappear for the sake of greater profitability.

I share Senator Ó Murchú's view on radio licences. County Tipperary is losing Tipperary Mid-West Radio, a strongly family orientated station catering for those who enjoy Irish music and home grown features. It will be missed.

Joanna Tuffy (Labour)
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Senator Mooney referred to the issue of competitiveness, which was also raised last week by Senators Ulick Burke and Cox. I raise it in the context of job losses, including those announced yesterday in Navan, County Donegal and Macroom. I note the commitment given by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, in the Irish Independent today to do everything possible to ensure the affected workers receive the assistance and retraining necessary for future opportunities. I know a number of people, some close to me, who have lost their jobs recently but have seen no evidence of any initiatives in this regard by the Government. I ask that the Minister come into the House to explain what she means by assistance and providing further opportunities. Many of the actions of the Government, for example, in relation to third level investment, are at odds with the notion of taking action to improve our competitiveness and create jobs. If the Minister comes before the House, I request that the debate include the issue of cutbacks in community employment schemes. At a time of job losses we should not be implementing cuts in schemes which provide a bridge to employment for the unemployed.

Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I refer to the matter raised by Senator Ryan in which, as a director of Independent Newspapers, I declare an interest. I have not seen the edition about which he complained and will not comment further until I do. However, I would deeply regret any offence given or pain caused to the Taoiseach or any other person mentioned in the item. The private lives of public people are entitled to protection and should not be intruded into, except to the extent that the performance of their public duties is involved, which does not appear to be the case in this context. The better news from Independent Newspapers, for Senator Brian Hayes, is that we covered the protest in Sligo.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I join Senator Brian Hayes and other speakers on this side of the House who oppose the manner in which the Leader proposes to deal with the Immigration Bill on Thursday. This is important legislation and to push it through the House in two hours would be unacceptable. I ask the Leader to reconsider. There are so many amendments that the legislation looks like a new Bill. I have not even seen the amendments yet.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Under Standing Orders, Report Stage must be taken. We cannot discuss the matter at this stage.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I was asking a question of the Leader. The matter has already been discussed and the Leader was asked to allocate more time.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Time is passing and several more Senators wish to speak.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I wish briefly to address another important matter. This year approximately 12,000 students, including my son, have availed of the J1 visa when travelling to the United States. They are required to have a job within 20 days and provide their social security number, which is a new requirement. However, many do not have their number – in many instances it is taking months to get them – and they may be deported. In view of this, I ask the Leader to seek the intervention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. Many students have spent between €1,200 and €1,300 to travel to the United States and it frightens them that they may be sent home within 20 days.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I am sure all Senators support the efforts by the Minister for Health and Children to discourage the smoking of tobacco. I ask the Leader to draw the Minister's attention to a British company which yesterday announced it was targeting the Irish market to sell legally half price cigarettes. I will provide the name of the company for the Leader. If it is able to deliver cigarettes to customers who are perhaps under age at prices that eliminate the benefits of the Government's taxation policy, which inhibit smoking, it will undermine legislative measures in this area.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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For many decades British coarse anglers have been the mainstay of tourism in many areas. While the fisheries boards have undertaken studies, surveys and reports, unfortunately, they have failed to explain the reason fish stocks have declined. I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to attend the House to outline his proposals to address this serious problem. If this matter is not addressed, we will be in danger of losing these most loyal of tourists because they will instead visit Sweden or Denmark.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I am disappointed there has been no debate on the housing crisis during this session. I ask the Leader to arrange one for the autumn. Inflationary pressures have led to further increases in house prices with the result that well in excess of 50,000 families are on local authority waiting lists. I was appalled to hear the Taoiseach say last week that the needy would have to wait another two years until a report on the constitutionality of key housing policies was introduced.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point and will deprive his colleagues of their time if he continues.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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That is a disgrace. It is clear the Taoiseach has no idea how to implement key policies in this area.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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If the Senator does not desist, I will call the Leader.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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In the past year the House debated the health insurance Bill and regulations dealing with risk equalisation. The Leader will be aware that the Minister for Health and Children promised that the risk equalisation policy, which was foisted upon the health insurance market by the VHI, would ensure health insurance would remain affordable. I ask her to arrange for the Minister to attend the House to explain what is happening as a result of risk equalisation. It is keeping competition out of the market, the consequences of which are reflected in the request by the VHI to impose another increase in insurance premiums, of approximately 8% in this instance. The only thing more outrageous was the Minister's comment that he found it acceptable. It is a disgrace. The matter must be debated in the near future.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I agree with the sentiments expressed by Senator Brian Hayes and certain Fianna Fáil Members regarding the loss of licences by local radio stations. Radio Kilkenny found itself in a similar position to the one outlined. I call on the Leader to join me in expressing surprise at the belief of Senators on the Government side that too much power has been bestowed on the Broadcasting Commission given that amendments put forward in the Dáil to the relevant legislation by former Fine Gael Deputy Deirdre Clune were voted down by the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Matters in the other House do not affect us.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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The amendments in question would have ensured that local radio stations which held licences to this point would have held them for another five years at a minimum. It is a bit rich to see crocodile tears being shed on the Government side for radio stations its Members did nothing to save five or six years ago.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes, the Leader of the Opposition, raised the matter of the Immigration Bill which comes before the House later in the week. He commented straightforwardly on the number of late amendments which have been attached to it. The Senator described this as a lack of fair procedure and I intend to seek to speak to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform before the Bill is before us. I will report to the House regarding the matter. As the Senator said, if a Bill is not introduced in the Seanad, we find ourselves examining all amendments in a lump on Report Stage. While the procedure is correct, it does not seem the proper way to process legislation especially in the case of a large number of amendments. I will seek to discover how the matter is to be addressed.

The Senator praised the group of 7,000 people which turned up in Sligo to protest against the change in the awarding of a radio licence. The purpose of the protest was to draw attention to the fact that there is no recourse to an appeals system in this case. As we all know, it is possible to make an appeal in respect of rent increases or the refusal of a medical card, but that is not the case in respect of a radio licence. This matter has been raised in the House before by Senators from Sligo and Leitrim.

Senator Henry referred to the Immigration Bill in respect of which we will have to seek a ruling before the legislation is before the House for the last time. The changes to the Bill were mentioned by Senator Ryan who also raised the USA-EU agreement on a common security and police force. He wished to know when the latter matter had come before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Senator Ryan commented also on the Railway Procurement Agency and raised the issue of the Evening Herald, which is not widely available down the country although we did manage to get a copy of the front page. It is inexcusable. It is wrong in any sphere to comment on a person's private life where it does not affect their public life. To comment in the fashion the paper did on a person's private life is hateful and I thank the Senator for raising the matter. I have always stated this point of view publicly.

Senator Leyden raised the matter of Ryanair but we are not permitted to name the person involved. The Senator showed us the relevant advertisement. The Cathaoirleach was within his rights to refuse to allow us to comment on it. The person whose name we cannot speak is an arrogant bully who seeks to intimidate the Taoiseach and to get what he wants through his wealth.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot refer to whoever the Leader is speaking about in that manner.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We know we cannot say his name, but he seeks through his wealth to frighten and intimidate the Taoiseach.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Michael O'Leary is his name.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden can say it, but I am not allowed.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I would like it to be clear that nobody can say the name or refer to the person in language of that sort.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is the man whose name we dare not say. It is fair to raise the matter in the way Senator Leyden did. The person in question has shifted his attention from me to the Taoiseach who, I am willing to bet, will not be intimidated either.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senators cannot discuss any person on the Order of Business.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We will not say his name.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is discussing a person, although he is not named.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We are not allowed to say his name.

Senator Mooney is seeking a debate on Ireland's competitiveness on the world stage. We intend to arrange debates of interest for the autumn and that subject could be one for debate.

Senator Norris seconded Senator Ryan's proposed amendment to the Order of Business.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Is the Leader accepting it?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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No. Senator Norris also mentioned the role of the RPA, tax changes in the film industry and the problem of alarms going off throughout the night and not being turned off.

Senator Ó Murchú raised the issue of local radio licences. He referred to an interesting matter, the fact that the listenership was delineated in a disparaging way when it was run under the present regime, which is due to be ousted in September.

Senator Cummins commented on the Freedom of Information Act and the tax changes in the film industry while Senator Hanafin raised the issue of superpubs. It is extremely difficult for bar staff to monitor those who drink in these pubs simply because of their size. The Senator also agreed with Senator Ó Murchú's comments.

Senator Tuffy raised the issue of job losses and said she had not noticed assistance from the Tánaiste in all cases. However, the Tánaiste is up front when job losses occur when many others would seek to hide. The Senator also made a valid point about CE schemes.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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He said they would have to wait for two years.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator might have encapsulated his remarks but the Taoiseach would not have said the needy would have to wait. I cannot imagine him doing so.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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That is factual.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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No.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bannon should not interrupt.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bradford spoke about the risk equalisation policy which was supposed to lead to stabilisation of insurance premia and pointed out that the VHI had sought an increase. However, the VHI has to pay its employees and enter into contracts with consultants, specialists and so forth. It would have been easy for the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, to huff and puff about the matter but he decided to be straightforward in his comments.

Senator John Paul Phelan referred to radio licences and pointed out that if the Fine Gael amendments had been accepted in the other House, the matter would not have reached this point. The Senator might have a point but I do not know the detail of the matter.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ryan has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate on the Freedom of Information Act 1997 (Fees) Regulations 2003, which have been laid before the House, be taken before No. 1." Is the amendment being pressed?

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Yes.

Amendment put.