Seanad debates
Thursday, 27 March 2003
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Employment Permits Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude not later than 1 p.m. with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Senators may share time; No. 2, Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Bill 2002 – Second Stage, to be taken at 2 p.m. and conclude not later than 4.30 p.m. with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Senators may share time. There will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise two matters. Yesterday the national co-ordinator of the Irish Foster Care Association, Ms Pat Whelan, described the State's fostering services as being in crisis. I ask the Leader to find time next week for a debate on foster care provisions. It is outrageous that, at a time of such public and private opulence, there are in excess of 4,500 children in need of permanent accommodation with foster parents. Many thousands of childless couples are attempting to adopt children from Romania, Russia and other parts of the world, yet there is a large group of children in this country who cannot be provided with loving homes. This House has a responsibility to debate the issue and examine the measures being put in place by the Government to encourage more people to become foster parents. I know the Leader will agree that the foster parents providing care are probably the greatest living examples of Irish men and women. They are providing children with a loving and decent home. I am aware that the former Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Hanafin, introduced a novel scheme to give financial resources to foster parents engaged in this selfless work. The scheme has not been subscribed to as she and others envisaged.
Yesterday in the House the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, stated he had been asked by the Taoiseach to chair a new working group on Seanad reform. I ask if the Leader was aware of this decision because I certainly was not. The leaders of groups in this House have already embarked on a radical review of the Seanad which will be concluded over the next 12 to 14 months. I ask if the groups will be working in tandem. One would have thought that the Seanad and its Members would have been consulted before the Government took this unilateral decision. I await the Leader's view on the matter.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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On an issue of procedure, we debated the Finance Bill yesterday afternoon during which the Minister for Finance was open to taking questions and dealing with issues as they arose. Senators Higgins, McDowell and I were of the view that it was a very useful way of doing business. I ask the Leader to consider introducing a type of Question Time in this House. Yesterday's debate provided a good example of a Minister who may not have agreed with Members on either side of the House being able to deal with issues in a Question Time format. Perhaps the Leader will look at the issue.
Another procedural matter which has been considered by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges relates to the court proceedings involving Senator Higgins and Deputy Howlin. I am absolutely appalled that the Government does not consider it has a responsibility to the Houses of the Oireachtas to support both Members completely and fully in their attempts. There is a real need for them to be supported. A number of issues arise. There is an appalling editorial in this month' edition of Garda Review which attempts to compare the decisions of both Members with those of the gardaí involved in the Abbeylara case. It behoves every one of us to make it clear that Senator Higgins and Deputy Howlin have nothing to hide. They are taking a totally disinterested position to protect the operation of the Houses of the Oireachtas and there must be no negative impact on them if they must comply. There is a complete and utter difference in this instance. They are not protecting themselves or any aspect of their work. They are simply protecting the operation of the Houses of the Oireachtas which is the reason the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of both Houses took a stand on the issue.
It is crucial to make clear this point. I am totally disinterested in this matter. I am not a member of any party. As a Member of the Oireachtas, I am aware that both Members are taking a stand on our behalf. I know my colleagues on the opposite side of the House share my view in this regard. It is absolutely crucial that no one believes both Members have something to hide. There is nothing to hide. They are simply taking a stand on the way we do our business. I would like the Leader to clarify the position. It is my strong advice to both Members that they should come into the Houses and outline the issues to prove they have nothing to hide and that they are simply taking a stand on behalf of all the people. I do not want either of these two decent people to be under threat in any way in their personal lives or have their property threatened if the decision goes against them.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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There is an easy way for them to protect themselves. All they need do is come into the House, outline and they will be completely covered. They have chosen to take a stand on principle which we all admire and support. The Government should take a closer interest in the matter.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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On the issue of the two Members of the Oireachtas, I support fully what Senator O'Toole said. I do not want to go into too much detail because the matter is still ongoing. I share his indignation that a Garda magazine should suggest some similarities. Whatever our frailties or faults, these two Houses represent the elected representatives of the people, whose job it is, for better or worse, to be responsible for the well-being of the people. Whether we realise it, we are in a most extraordinary position. The reason for the extraordinary privilege of Members of the Oireachtas is our position is extraordinary. We are the elected representatives of the people under a Constitution the people voted freely to accept. It is extraordinary that we must end up in the courts to assert this simple fact.
Since being elected more than 20 years ago, I have heard and supported the most colourful language appropriate to the occasion to denounce the Provisional IRA's assaults on civilians. Among the things that used to appal us most were the two statements, first, that it deeply regretted the deaths of civilians and, second, that unfortunately in a conflict there were sometimes civilian casualties. Some 15 innocent people were murdered in Baghdad yesterday.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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They were murdered because someone chose irresponsibly to use lethal force in an area where they could not have been in any doubt what would happen if anything went wrong. It behoves us to say this to people we claim as our friends. They are creating the most appalling conflict in the world. Yesterday the representatives of the Al-Jazeera television network were banned from Wall Street.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It was said it was a problem about accommodation which was in short supply. Therefore, it is reported to the Arab world that the defenders of freedom will not allow a free medium from the Arab world to report on what is happening in one part of the United States.
An English language website was set up yesterday. It has been inaccessible because it has been constantly bombarded by the most sophisticated hacking anyone has ever seen. We are supposed to be tentatively supporting a war to defend freedom. What I see is civilians being murdered, a television channel being censored and a website being bombarded, which has nothing to do with the freedom in which I and Members of this House believe.
David Norris (Independent)
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And their television station bombed.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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That is the reason I want to say—
(Interruptions).
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It is a speech, and I am proud of the fact.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I know the difference between right and wrong and I am very happy to stand up and say so. I denounced the Provisional IRA in this House in language that could not be questioned. I will not be silent and let others do the same things just because they claim the cloak of respectability.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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To repeat what I said yesterday, propaganda from whatever source—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Dardis did not interrupt Senator Ryan. Senator Dardis, without interruption.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I do not think I accused the Senator of anything. All I am saying is that propaganda from whatever source is not helpful.
It is important that there is no ambiguity as to the attitude of this side of the House to the predicament of Senator Higgins or the protection of the privilege of Members. This has already been affirmed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of both Houses. Therefore, there is no ambiguity as to the attitude of either House with regard to the protection and rights of Members. I understand there may be some legal difficulties in this regard but it would be useful if the committee was to meet in the near future to consider the matter.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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We have just heard that prices here are running 12% above the euro zone average. I know we have debated the Finance Bill in the House but there will soon be a need to debate the issue further. According to the Central Bank, growth is slowing and employment appears set to fall. It has given a stern warning in this regard. We need to hear very soon what plans the Government has, if any, to tackle the increasing inflation rate. While we may have approved the social partnership agreement, Sustaining Progress, we should be concerned about sustaining Ireland.
I support Senator Brian Hayes's remarks in regard to Seanad reform. It appears peculiar that two bodies may be looking at this matter. I look forward to the Leader's response.
I support Senator O'Toole's comments regarding the court proceedings involving Deputy Howlin and Senator Higgins who have done honourable work. They could have put the matter on the record but out of a sense of duty they acquainted the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform with all the facts before them. If what we hear is true, it is frightful that they may be punished.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I support the call by Senator Brian Hayes for a debate on fostering. The health boards face great difficulties in recruiting social workers. My health board has had to go abroad, to South Africa, to recruit them. Perhaps career guidance teachers might exhort students to consider taking up this worthy profession. I applaud the intentions of prospective foster and adoptive parents who show great generosity. Social workers play a pivotal role in the whole area of fostering and adoption. The House should debate the issue sooner rather than later.
David Norris (Independent)
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I appreciate the attitude of the Leader yesterday to my request that the House debate the situation in Iraq and her indication that it would engage in a rolling debate. Will she indicate her intentions in this regard for next week? A debate of perhaps one hour without the presence of a Minister and with Senators allowed five minutes to contribute might be considered. We must monitor what is going on.
There has been a remarkable reversal in British public opinion. Today 67% are against the war. Major contracts have already been awarded by the United States Government to Vice-President Dick Cheney's Halliburton Corporation.
Yesterday I was accused of histrionics. I make no apology for being harrowed, as are most decent people in this country, by what is happening. For the honour of the Seanad we must place on record two paragraphs from a report by Robert Fisk in The Independent today that will shame the United States and Britain. It states:
It was an outrage, an obscenity. The severed hand on the metal door, the swamp of blood and mud across the road, the human brains inside a garage, the incinerated, skeletal remains of an Iraqi mother and her three children in their still-smouldering car.
Two missiles from an American jet killed them all – by my estimate more than 20 Iraqi civilians, torn to pieces before they could be 'liberated' by the nation that destroyed their lives. Who dares, I ask myself, to call this 'collateral damage'? Abu Taleb Street was packed with pedestrians and motorists when the American pilot approached through the dense sandstorm that covered northern Baghdad in a cloak of red and yellow dust and rain yesterday morning.
David Norris (Independent)
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I may not be as familiar with the smell of blood as some of the more sophisticated Members around here but I am not ashamed or afraid of emotion. I call on every Member of the House who has any decency to attend the rallies that will take place all over the country this Saturday.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should be more temperate with his remarks.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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A report on pharmacy will shortly be submitted to the Government. I ask the Leader to arrange an early debate in the House on this important issue in view of the implications for the health service and the contribution made by community pharmacy.
I also support the comments expressed by previous speakers on the court proceedings involving Senator Higgins. It is in all our interests to give careful consideration to the issues raised.
I urge the Leader to let the House know her intentions regarding a rolling debate on Iraq. It is very important that we do not engage in two minute propaganda soundbites from any side of the House on the Order of Business. There must be a balance of views. I could equally quote from a BBC 2 television programme last night about the hurt, wrongs and massacres inflicted on the Kurdish people.
David Norris (Independent)
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The Senator does not seem to know which side of the conflict holds patriot missiles.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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If Senator Norris wants to debate Middle East issues, I will be happy to do so.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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It is important the House holds a weekly debate on the situation in Iraq. Like other civil minded people, I am abhorred by the brutality and cruelty of the attacks on the civilian communities.
I ask the Leader to meet the director general of RTE to discuss the broadcasting of the proceedings of the Houses of the Oireachtas under "Oireachtas Report" at an earlier time. Many busy people consider that the important debates conducted in this House and the Dáil are broadcast at too late a time. They should be broadcast between 9 p.m. and 10 p.m.
Timmy DooleyMargaret Cox (Fianna Fail)
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Earlier this week the House engaged in a good debate on the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. I raised the question of maternity leave regulations which oblige expectant mothers to take four weeks of their maternity leave prior to delivery. An examination of the statistics will indicate that among European countries, Ireland has among the highest rate of premature babies, by two weeks. This arises because women, doctors and employers are obliged by the regulations to indicate a date for delivery. It is often mistaken as they attempt to secure as much maternity leave as possible after birth. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs has indicated that a review of the regulations on maternity leave and benefit is under way in Europe. I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who has responsibility for the regulations in this area, to attend the House and hear the views of Senators. I hope this will be done at an early stage.
Owing to time pressures, I was unable to participate in yesterday's Private Members' debate on health. I reiterate my support to the Minister. However, it is vital that the BreastCheck programme is rolled out across the country and that staff are immediately appointed to the regional radiotherapy centres identified.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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Yesterday the Leader expressed the view that the war in Iraq was illegal. If so, does she and the Government believe President Bush and Prime Minister Blair should be indicted for war crimes?
Yesterday the Minister for Finance confirmed that there was no prospect of the promised additional 2,000 extra gardaí coming on stream. I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to attend the House as a matter of urgency to debate the issue.
The Ireland-England Six Nations rugby match is to take place in this city on Sunday. Ireland has a chance to win the grand slam for the first time in almost 50 years. Tickets for the match are limited.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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They are being sold on the black market at exorbitant prices.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is out of order. I call Senator Maurice Hayes.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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Will the Leader ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to look into the matter?
Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I have neither a newspaper nor a ticket to sell.
I support the request by Senator Brian Hayes and Senator Glynn for an extended discussion on fosterage, child care and social work. Concern about abuse of children in the past has created an atmosphere where people are reluctant to go into social and child care work or to take on fosterage. The people who are suffering are the children who need that care most. I hope we can have a debate on the issue soon.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I remind Members that they will be able to gain admission to the Ireland-England match next Sunday.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should raise a matter on the Order of Business or else resume his seat.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I refer to the match that will take place at 10 a.m. in which Members of the Oireachtas will play against their counterparts from the House of Commons.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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The Senator is wrong. It is the House of Commons and the House of Lords.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should resume his seat. I call Senator Henry.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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I support those who asked for a debate on Iraq early next week. It is important that we try to address this matter from the perspective of an area in which we are involved, namely, the provision of humanitarian aid. The pictures we have seen of the distribution of aid, to date, have been appalling. The Government has said that it will give money for aid and other organisations here are also asking for money. We have aid workers waiting in Kuwait to go into Iraq as soon as possible. We need to look at the issue from the perspective of the part of it in which we are seriously involved.
Will the Leader ask the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Tim O'Malley, to come before the House to discuss the appallingly slow implementation of the Mental Health Act 2001. Progress is at a snail's pace and this is causing great difficulties for those working in the psychiatric services and for patients who are not being properly treated under many of the Council of Europe and other conventions.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator Bannon in regard to "Oireachtas Report". Its transmission time should be brought forward because it only suits night owls or insomniacs to watch it at present.
Will the Leader arrange for a debate on transport in light of the controversial comments made by Mr. Michael O'Leary of Ryanair regarding Aer Rianta and in view of the fact that he stated clearly that there is no need for a second runway in Dublin Airport or for a metro or train link to the airport? A debate in the House regarding those comments would be helpful.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to clarify the dates of the Easter recess for those who are not aware of them. The political parties know the dates, but perhaps some of the Independent groups do not. I said in the House that we would break on a particular date, but that is not the correct date. We will break on either 16 or 17 April which is either Wednesday or Thursday of Holy Week. We return on Wednesday, 7 May.
Senator Brian Hayes spoke about the State fostering service and mentioned that there are 4,500 children looking for foster parents. What Senator Glynn said is also important in this context. I agree that there is need for debate. Foster parents perform a selfless task. They know they will not have the child in their care forever, yet they take on the responsibilities and the rearing of that child. A debate on this matter would be useful and worthwhile and we will try to get the appropriate Minister to come before the House. He was here last night in connection with another matter.
Senator Glynn spoke about the lack of social welfare advisers, counsellors, etc. in the area. That could be one of the reasons that the numbers of young children needing a loving home are so high. We are fortunate to have a career guidance counsellor in our midst and counsellors should encourage young people to take up the worthwhile profession of social welfare officers.
Senator Brian Hayes also asked about the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, and the chairing of the group on Seanad reform. I think the Minister has been asked to chair the group because he is involved with councillors throughout the country. I understand that councillors have been activated by the reports of debate on Seanad reform, which is quite right because it is they who have the franchise. I feel the Minister was appointed in that context. I will endeavour to clarify the issue. We hope to have a meeting next week and will see where it is headed.
Senator O'Toole spoke about the Finance Bill and the toing and froing of the debate. I was only present for a short period of that debate. Senators McDowell and Higgins, in particular, and Senators Mansergh, White and others who came and went had a free and easy exchange of views. Senator O'Toole suggested this exchange as a model for Ministers in charge of a brief. It would be useful.
The Senator also raised the matter of the need for us to express our solidarity with Senator Higgins and of the need for a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. We should have a Committee on Procedure and Privileges meeting in order to express our solidarity more strenuously. He also thought that Senator Higgins should read into the record what he told the then Minister for Justice. I think that would defeat the purpose of the point which is that Senator Higgins went about the matter the right way, as he thought, at the time and it turned out to be read wrongly. Senator Ryan supports the two Members – Senator Higgins and Deputy Howlin – involved. I agree with him in that regard. Any one of us could be in the same situation and we would be glad of solidarity. Senator Dardis affirmed what has been said about Senator Higgins and the need for a Committee on Procedure and Privileges meeting. The latter comes under the aegis of the Cathaoirleach. Senator Minihan agreed with the remarks about Senator Higgins.
Senator Ryan also mentioned the 15 innocent civilians killed in Baghdad. Everyone in the House would concur with what he said. He also mentioned the website which is being bombarded and the fact that Al-Jazeera has been banned from Wall Street. I do not know anything about that matter, I am merely mentioning what the Senator said.
Senator Coghlan spoke about consumer prices and the 12% above average prices we pay here. We may be able to include this in debate on the social partnership. I understand that measures to counter inflation are built into that. A debate on the issue would be useful and I hope we can include it in that.
Senator Norris made an unfortunate remark. He said that he may not be as familiar with the smell of blood as some of the more sophisticated people here. Nobody in the House would concur with that remark. I must point out that nobody in this House is used to that kind of regime or would wish to be part of it.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Minihan asked about the review of the pharmacy profession. I do not know if the Minister has received the report, but the request is timely and we will seek debate on the issue.
Senator Bannon agreed that RTE should bring forward the transmission time for "Oireachtas Report". I remember that Deputy Rabbitte, leader of the Labour Party, once said that only two groups of people watched it, insomniacs and drunkards. I think more people are sitting up late to watch it. I will request that it be brought forward.
Senator Cox spoke about maternity leave regulations. She wants me to ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, about what is happening in Europe concerning review of the regulations. She also asked about BreastCheck and mentioned the need for staff for it in the Western Health Board, particularly in the Galway region.
Senator McCarthy referred to the war. I do not intend to indict anybody. Nobody is in favour of war. Who could be in favour of a war?
David Norris (Independent)
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Mr. Bush, Mr. Blair and Mr. Rumsfeld.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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No, everybody would regret it. Let us be quite clear. Nobody is in favour of waving a flag and saying they are in favour of war.
(Interruptions).
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader to reply without interruption, please.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, the Senator is correct, the Minister for Finance clearly said the extra gardaí would not be appointed in the near future. I was in the House for that interchange and the Senator may also have been here. He said it was a five-year programme of Government and he intimated that the extra gardaí would arrive before the end of the period of Government. It has been said that the final year of Government will be a busy one.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Did Senator McCarthy raise the issue of extortion in regard to tickets?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am only replying to the Senator.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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There is a Bill before the House on permits—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The availability of tickets is not before the House.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I will soon have to obtain guidance on the questions to which I should reply. Senator Maurice Hayes agreed with the need for a debate on fostering.
Senator Frank Feighan reminded the House of the match between parliamentarians at 10 a.m. on Sunday.
Senator Henry called for a debate on the provision of humanitarian aid. She asked also that Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, come before the House for a debate on the slow rate of implementation of the Mental Health Act.
Senator Browne called for a debate on transport and said Mr. Michael O'Leary had views on every aspect of transport. Mr. O'Leary has views on many things.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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On a point of clarification, if No. 1 ends before 1 p.m. can No. 2 begin?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Should the debate on No. 1 conclude before 1 p.m., it is proposed to proceed to No. 2.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.
Order of Business agreed to.