Seanad debates
Thursday, 13 March 2003
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business today is No. 1, motion re the Competition Act 2002, to be taken without debate.
I wish to make a statement on two other matters. The Seanad is scheduled to meet today, but a joint committee, of which five Senators are members, is scheduled to meet the same time. The Leaders of the various groups met this morning and those who could not attend were contacted by telephone. It would not be proper procedure if members of the committee were prevented from attending the meeting because they were obliged to be present in the House and vice versa. The five Members to whom I refer – Senators O'Toole, McDowell, Higgins, White and Mansergh – have been prominent in the debate during the past couple of days. I propose, therefore, that the Seanad meet next Thursday at 10.30 a.m. to take Report and Final Stages of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Leader's announcement. It is clear the Government side has accepted the strenuous arguments the Opposition has been making about the procedure of the House, specifically the fact that an Oireachtas committee would be discussing a Bill at the same time as the Seanad. I am glad the Leader has drawn back from the brink and accepted arguments from this side of the House and that we will take Report Stage of this important Bill next week.
If one read The Irish Times this morning or heard Deputy Fleming on the radio, it appears the Government is now considering amendments. Will the Leader provide an assurance that those amendments will be circulated to Members as soon as possible, either at the weekend or by Monday at the latest? In addition, will the sponsoring Minister, Deputy McCreevy, take Report Stage in the House and engage in the meaningful debate we have been seeking? We welcome this belated U-turn by the Government. I know it was done in the right way by the Leader and we appreciate that.
I am sure the House joins me in condemning utterly the appalling assassination yesterday of the Serbian Prime Minister, Mr. Djindjic. With President Kostunica, he represented a new, democratic Serbia which could be re-integrated with Europe. This was an appalling act. All democrats and right-minded people across Europe should condemn it and join the people of Serbia in ensuring the freedom and democracy they won against the appalling tyranny of Milosevic will hold in the future.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I welcome the decision of the Leader of the House and thank her for it. It reflects a correct assessment of the need for proper participation in the democratic process. I found the debate on the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill this week excruciating due to the manner in which it exposed contradictions in the Government's approach. This move will give the House an opportunity to consider the proposals of the Information Commissioner the next time it meets. I hope we will assist him, regardless of whether we agree or disagree with them. A large measure of consensus could emerge across the House when we consider the various issues. This would allow the required changes to be made.
I look forward to the debate and thank the Leader for responding to the difficulties we had on the issue. While committee meetings often clash with sittings of the House, on this occasion the fact that a joint committee was scheduled to deal with exactly the same business as the House made it impossible for us to proceed as planned.
In the course of heated discussion and argument in recent days Senator Norris and I repeatedly expressed our dissatisfaction with the information we were receiving as it indicated that the Government's objective was not feasible. Ministerial advisers were being asked to defend the impossible. Nothing we said should be viewed as a reflection on the ability of advisers, nor did we mean to embarrass them. Unfortunately, however, civil servants are placed in a position of having to carry out the will of their political masters. We were unhappy about this and the fact that the Minister of State in situ did not have the relevant information to hand, which put his officials in an impossible position. Senators on all sides of the House will breathe a sigh of relief following this victory for common sense.
In terms of the wider issue of how we conduct our business, a proposal to make the operation of the Houses and government more e-friendly is being discussed in Government circles. Considerable sums are being invested to ensure Ministers can do business without having to carry large amounts of paper to each Cabinet meeting. There is a view that this should also be the case in the Houses. One possibility would be to provide Members with access to the Internet in the Chamber. During the debate on the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill this week I found myself trying to access the earlier debate on the principal Act and searching for a copy of the Act, which one needs when an amending Bill is being debated. I request that we move quickly to have mobile technology fully operational in the Houses and, where necessary, the Chambers, as is currently the case in the committee rooms.
It is appropriate that No. 1 be taken without debate. The Competition Authority should receive further support. Some of the money being collected by the Criminal Assets Bureau should be diverted to provide it with proper resources. People forget the authority deals with criminal cases, yet has just three investigators to cover the whole country. While I apologise for going beyond my brief, I want an opportunity to discuss this issue.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Cathaoirleach will be aware that the Opposition is generally agreeable. All we need is to be given a good reason and we will co-operate fully with the Government. The problem this week was we found no good reason to rush through legislation. We have passed legislation in both Houses in half a day once a convincing reason was offered for so doing. The last time my party took exception to the pace at which a Bill was being passed was before Christmas when the Government introduced the Immigration Bill in the House. Interestingly, it has still not been passed in the other House, despite being rushed through this House in two days.
I am glad the good sense of the Leader has prevailed on the Government and the due process of the Houses of the Oireachtas will be adhered to. I share Senator Brian Hayes's hope that substantial Government amendments will be introduced. If this is the case, I presume they will be circulated well in advance. If the Opposition with its limited resources can manage to table amendments within a reasonable time frame, the Government should at least be able to match it. My only regret is that some members of the staff of the House had to work late last night to prepare lists of amendments which could just as easily have been drawn up today.
I join Senator Brian Hayes in raising the assassination of the Prime Minister of Serbia. This horrific act deserves to be discussed in every democratic chamber. It is the antithesis of democracy and everything for which Members of the House stand and a dreadful affront to the people of Serbia. We should all roundly condemn it as unacceptable in the community of European nations.
The process of terminating debate in the House needs to be clarified. I have not found anything in Standing Orders on terminating Committee Stage debate before it has concluded. I ask the Cathaoirleach to examine the matter. If the Government wants to terminate a debate, it should table a motion to that effect and allow Senators to vote on it. We must act according to Standing Orders. To vote on a motion from the Chair which essentially terminates Committee Stage debate, as we have done twice in the past two weeks, involves the Chair in an issue which should be determined by the House by way of a Government motion – in this case a closure motion. Otherwise, the House will be operating against the spirit and, I believe, letter of Standing Orders.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The procedure is that the House agrees when business is to be concluded. It is the Chair's duty to implement the decisions of the House.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I did not catch whether Senator Ryan said he was agreeable or disagreeable.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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While I do not want to intrude on what is, appropriately, the business of the Chair, I wish to comment on the matter raised by the Senator as I was the occupant of the Chair when the matter arose. I merely confirmed the order of the House. If there are ambiguities as to Standing Orders and their interpretation, perhaps they can be considered in the coming weeks by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges under the chairmanship of the Cathaoirleach.
I support the comments of Senators Brian Hayes and Ryan with regard to the assassination of Prime Minister Djindjic of Serbia. This is a serious matter which we view with considerable apprehension. It appears from radio reports that criminal elements may have been involved which makes it even more horrific and distasteful. All we can do is express our hope the European Union will show solidarity with Serbia, that democratic institutions and progress will be maintained and that the country will move forward in peace and prosperity.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I support the excellent decision of the Leader. I also welcome the fact that the five Senators who teased out this issue will attend the meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service this morning because having dealt with the Bill on Committee Stage in this House they are even more familiar than their Oireachtas colleagues with this area.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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While the decision is welcome, it is likely that amendments will flow from it next week. Members may have heard an interview on radio this morning with a representative of the One in Four organisation in which he expressed concerns that private citizens may not have access to information and data which would enable them make claims under the residential redress legislation.
The Education (Welfare) Act which was designed to combat truancy in schools passed through both Houses in July 2002 but to date no action has been taken in that regard. Education welfare officers have not been appointed and advertisements have not been placed. A report published at the time envisaged a need for in excess of 300 such officers. Will the Leader establish from the Minister for Education and Science when action will be taken in this area?
A Chathaoirligh, will you allow me some latitude to raise another matter? As we head towards the St. Patrick's Day celebrations, a colleague of ours in this House, Senator Cummins, is recovering in hospital following an unfortunate accident. I am sure Members would like to send him our best wishes for a speedy recovery.
David Norris (Independent)
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I also welcome the development this morning and it was not appropriate to call it a belated U-turn. We should be much more generous on this side of the House. We should welcome what the Leader and the Government have done. I had no difficulty with some of the main provisions of the Bill. The extension from five to ten years was reasonable and sensible. I objected to certain elements but my principal objection and most trenchant criticism concerned the way it was being handled. As a result of the strong debate in this House, the situation has been altered in a way that is very beneficial to the democratic operation of the House. I express my undiluted appreciation of what has been done here today.
I mention also the assassination of Zoran Djindjic. As Senator Dardis said, it is very sinister that there were criminal elements involved. It was not the first attempt on Mr. Djindjic's life but the second or third. In recent weeks there was an attempt to whack him with a lorry and now they have apparently succeeded in extinguishing his life. There is also a possibility that there was some political content in the assassination because he was very pragmatic and prepared to surrender known war criminals to international justice. I hope we will use our contacts to encourage that process to continue under his successor, whoever that may be.
I ask that we have continuing monitoring in this House of the war in Iraq, especially in the light of the statement made by the Taoiseach under questioning in recent days. When asked about Ireland's position on the war, he said he would make it clear if and when the Americans went to war without a resolution. We are entitled to know before that happens. It is important that we have a debate in order that we can create a context in which the Taoiseach can formulate that type of policy.
I do not want to abuse the privilege of the House and I am not calling for a minute's silence or anything like it but it would be a pity if we did not note the passing of Dick Walsh, a very distinguished journalist, who was a friend to political life. Had I been here in time I would have mentioned it to you, Sir, and the Leader of the Opposition because we should be grateful to somebody who had such a clear and decent view of Irish politics. We are greatly diminished by his passing.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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On the last matter raised by Senator Norris, as a member of the NUJ and somebody who knew Dick Walsh well in my earlier career, I, too, note his passing. In relation to freedom of information, I read in his own newspaper, The Irish Times, this morning that he had intended to lend his weight to the NUJ campaign of opposition to the Government's proposals. In that regard, the announcement by the Leader this morning is very welcome.
As somebody who engaged in the battle on the floor of the House, I hope this signals a substantial change of mind on the part of the Government in terms of its policy on freedom of information. I also hope there will be a substantial change of heart next week, reflected in the amendments the Government will bring forward, and that a Minister from the relevant Department will come into the House to debate them. I further hope the debate will reflect that at the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service today and, in particular, the recommendations of the Information Commissioner.
Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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I join other speakers in welcoming the decision by the Government to defer further consideration of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill until next Thursday, which is a positive and sensible measure. The deliberations of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service are important from the point of view of allowing the five Members of this House have an input, although any Member can attend to hear the views of the expert group. There was a distinct unease, however, on the part of Government Senators of both parties in terms of the content of the Bill and the way it was being rushed through the House at the dictates of the Cabinet. We will now be in a position where we will be informed on a much better basis, first, by the commissioner's report, the contents of which we are still only absorbing, and, second, by the meeting about to take place as well as the deliberations and dialogue with the expert working group.
I ask that particular emphasis be placed by the Government on one of the key elements of the Bill, which was debated belatedly in the House yesterday evening, namely, the definition of "Government". I will, however, leave that matter for another day.
On the way we do our work in this House, I plead with the Leader to please refrain from guillotining measures that come before it in the future and to examine the need to stagger debate. There are separate Stages to the legislative process. Committee Stage should be taken separately from Report Stage on which other amendments can be tabled on the basis of the deliberations on Committee Stage. It is wrong to lump the whole lot together and take Committee and Remaining Stages on the one day. We do not have access to resources while those on the Government side of the House have a plethora of advisers. If the other House has a definite arrangement in regard to the way legislation is taken, we should have the same arrangement in this House.
Last week the Minister of State at the Department of Finance with responsibility for the Office of Public Works, Deputy Parlon, indicated that it was the Government's intention to sell surplus State property on which I seek early clarification. Will the sale include rural Garda stations? The Government gave a clear indication in 1997, in the run-up to the general election, and again in 2002, also in the run-up to the general election, that rural Garda stations would not be sold. The rural policing system is already depleted. If the Government was to sell off rural Garda stations with the Green Box through which somebody can speak to a central monitoring unit, it would be the ultimate abandonment of policing in rural Ireland. I ask for an early debate to establish what properties are to be sold and to clarify whether rural Garda stations are to be included in the general sale of State property.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I draw the Leader's attention to a call during the week from ICT Ireland for a review of the education system following the fall-off in the numbers of those studying science and technology. This is the second such call. Seán Dorgan made a similar call the previous week. A report making the same point has been lying gathering dust. It should be debated and could be included as part of the debate on truancy requested by Senator Finucane.
I ask the Leader to draw to the attention of the Minister for Health and Children the decision of the director of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland not to seek a second term. While this is regrettable from our point of view, it can be overcome if the Government pays serious attention to ensuring the high regard that Dr. Wall has established throughout Europe for the Food Safety Authority of Ireland is maintained under his replacement.
I know it is against the rules of the House to personally criticise other Members. However, I remind Senators that the St. Patrick's Day festival now lasts for one week and that it should be traditional for everyone to wear green. I have been setting a standard for the past two days which has caused some problems at home with my wife concerning my ties.
Michael McCarthyFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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Senators should accept the criticism from me because I see very little green around the place. If we are going to establish the St. Patrick's Day festival for one week, we should at least show some spirit in this area.
Noel CoonanLiam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Quinn made reference to Mr. Dorgan of the IDA. Does the Leader agree that the Department has responded in great detail by way of consideration of the report referred to by the Senator? In a sense it might have welcomed Mr. Dorgan's remarks. There is an acknowledgement in the Department that some cages need to be rattled, including some professional bodies, when it comes to the participation of students in the sciences. I am sure the Leader will agree there is a realisation within the Department and by the Minister that there needs to be far greater involvement throughout the community. There is little room for an elitist approach. While every encouragement should be given to the achievement of excellence, unfortunately in certain quarters such an attitude is all too evident. There also has to be connectivity at every level from primary upwards. Structures are being considered to ensure there is meaningful participation in the sciences in the entire educational sector.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the decision of the Leader to postpone further debate on the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill. Will she ensure that, at the first possible opportunity, Members of this House are informed of the Government amendments and the deliberations at the committee today?
In view of the crisis in the health service, the Minister for Health and Children should come to the House to indicate what he will do to address issues such as that in University College Hospital, Galway where equipment worth €8 million is lying idle. Since July 2001 the Western Health Board has requested sanction to appoint the specialists necessary to put this radiotherapy equipment into service. As evidenced by the statement of management at St. Luke's Hospital, there is a crisis in cancer treatment. It is unbelievable to have such a huge investment by the Department of Health and Children, on the one hand, and a failure to make the necessary appointments to allow this much needed service to proceed, on the other. I call on the Leader to ask the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House at the first available opportunity to discuss the health crisis, particularly incidences such as this.
Senators are aware of the agricultural reforms proposed by Commissioner Fischler. It is clear the Government's diplomats and officials are losing the support of necessary and valuable EU colleagues to bring about satisfactory reforms to the Common Agricultural Policy because of the Government's stance on the war in Iraq. Day by day we are eroding whatever support is needed for agriculture within the Commission. Ultimately, the farming community will lose out. We must clarify our position on the matter.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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Following what Senator Quinn said, I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to ensure something is done about safety on our waterways. The actions of some indiscriminate people who have no regard for other water sport enthusiasts on our lakes and rivers are quite disturbing.
Many people are turning up at accident and emergency units when they should in the first incidence present themselves to their general practitioners. This is clogging up accident and emergency units and in some cases depriving places to those who genuinely need to be there.
Other Members have referred to the sale of State property. Senators will be aware of the many beautiful stone canal houses along the Royal and Grand Canals which are lying derelict. These should be sold off as they would make excellent dwelling houses. One such house has been converted near where I was born at Thomastown, Killucan.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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I join other Senators in commending the common sense of the Leader in postponing Report Stage of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill until next week. Her common sense shines out in the face of the determination of others to push the Bill through with unseemly haste. Given that she has taken such an approach, may I suggest she give consideration to using the procedure under Standing Orders to recommit discussion next week into committee? There are a substantial number of amendments which were never reached on Committee Stage yesterday and many new proposals to be tabled on Report Stage. If she were to use that procedure, we, in the Labour Party, would be happy to use the extra latitude given to us in a responsible and sensible way.
I understand the Taoiseach told the Lower House yesterday he would be willing to reconvene the Dáil in the event that matters in Iraq take a particular turn next week. If matters go as seems likely, I suggest that the Leader also consider facilitating a debate on Iraq in this House next week.
Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)
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When our democracy was being formed, we had a number of assassinations which served only to highlight hatred that continued for many years. Similarly the assassination of the Serbian Prime Minister is a terrible crime. Although it may not be in order to stand as a mark of respect at the end of the Order of Business, the Seanad should send a message of sympathy to the Serbian people as they try to form their own democracy after the horrors of Slobodan Milosevic's rule.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I join my colleague, Senator Lydon, in his expression of sympathy. I do not know if others noticed the similarity. An assassination in Serbia prior to a war has a resonance of other years. I hope it will not come to that, however. I ask the Leader to make contact with the European Union. There is a suggestion afoot that it would not be involved in assisting Iraq in the event of the United States going it alone, perhaps in defiance of the United Nations. Humanitarian aid is unconditional and any aid that is needed should be given to Iraq in the event of a war.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I indicated at the outset that I wanted to speak.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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For fear that the Senator might think I am trying to rule him out of order—
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I would not accuse the Cathaoirleach of that.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not make an issue of it. I did not see him.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I completely accept that. I also apologise to Senator Quinn for the absence of green about my person. He reminded me yesterday, but I do not have any green clothing with me.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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The Senator is still wearing a blue shirt.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the statement from the Leader. We tried to tell her all week that it would be wrong to allow this House to plough on in the dark while the joint committee heard expert opinion and the Government drew up amendments. It demonstrates how wrong it was to guillotine the Bill on Committee Stage yesterday. I urge the Leader not to apply the guillotine again. I had never seen it used in this House before and it was inappropriate.
Iarnród Éireann is still failing to develop its services in the regions. The Government has adopted a policy of balanced regional development, but the people of County Kerry are often treated as second class citizens. We are already disadvantaged because of our peripheral position, but, added to that, there has been a total lack of catering services on trains in recent times.
The Leader promised that the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, would come before the House to discuss the State audit of surplus property to be put on the market. Will she indicate when that might happen?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to extend the condolences of this side of the House to the family of Dick Walsh, the eminent political writer. He wrote with great integrity for many years. I particularly admire how he overcame his physical infirmity to continue his journalistic work. It was a remarkable feat of resilience. We also send our best wishes to Senator Cummins. I was unaware that he had been involved in an accident. We all wish him a speedy recovery.
I pay tribute to the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern, and his officials. He stepped into the bearna baoil with great dignity and composure. He grew into the Bill and displayed a profound understanding of it. I will not thank everyone who thanked me, I will give a general thanks. Senator Brian Hayes said I had listened to his arguments. I had many arguments with myself and my colleagues, whom I consulted all week. The Senator wanted a guarantee on amendments, but I cannot offer him that.
Next Thursday we will debate Report and Final Stages. The Seanad is being adjourned today in order that the five Senators who are members of the committee are free to attend its meeting. Senator Finucane was right when he pointed out that Senators will be the most learned members of the committee because they have a deep knowledge of the Bill that Deputies do not possess.
Senator Brian Hayes and others mentioned the assassination of the Prime Minister of Serbia. It was a dreadful blow to democracy and the people of that country. As the Senator spoke, I thought of Archduke Franz Ferdinand at Sarajevo when he was assassinated on the eve of a war. As Senator Hanafin pointed out, the historical analogies are striking. Senator Ryan also mentioned the assassination. We send out our strongest condemnation of the murder. The implications are huge because there were clearly people who were out to get the Prime Minister. I will arrange for my office to send a message of sympathy on behalf of the Seanad.
Senator Finucane raised the Education (Welfare) Bill. I have raised the issue with the Department and the Minister. Senator Norris spoke of the need for a debate on Iraq. I thank him for also raising the untimely death of Mr. Dick Walsh and I thank Senator O'Meara, who spoke about her knowledge of him when she was a journalist.
I wish to correct Senator Higgins. He implied that the Committee and Report Stages were taken together. They were not; Committee Stage was taken over two days and Report Stage was to take place today. The Second Stage debate took place last week and everyone who wanted to speak was able to do so. We could not keep going at 2.45 a.m., when there was no one else to speak. Second Stage was certainly not guillotined. Committee and Report Stages clearly did not take place in one day.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I hope I am not offending his sartorial tastes.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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It is a lovely blouse. It looks very nice on the Leader.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We will remember to wear green next year.
Senators Quinn and Fitzgerald raised the lack of students pursuing science and technology courses. Senator Fitzgerald and I had a long conversation last night about the matter. We spoke about Seán Dorgan's speech in Glencolmcille which rattled a few cages and was very necessary. Education should be connected to the wider world of the sciences and we should debate that in the House.
Senator Ulick Burke spoke of a health crisis, referring, in particular, to the radiotherapy unit at University College Hospital, Galway, and requesting that the Minister for Health and Children come to the House. He also referred to the Fischler proposals on CAP reform. While we had a good debate on agriculture in the House quite recently, I presume there is need for another one.
Senator Glynn wants the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to come to the House to discuss the disturbance being caused by speed craft on lakes and waterways, with disruption of the gentler sports of sailing and boating. I agree we should invite the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to discuss the matter. The Senator also referred to the sell-off of State property and the need for an audit in that regard, on which we will have a debate. He also raised the issue of congestion at accident and emergency units caused by those who should go to their local general practitioner instead.
Senator McDowell requested a debate on Iraq with which I agree. He also asked if the House would be recalled. From what I have heard this morning, it appears the ongoing examination of the matter in question will continue until Friday of next week. I wish to make it very clear that the Order of Business for next Thursday's sitting will include Report and Final Stages of the Bill which was to have been taken today. I am giving no other guarantees and want that to be understood very clearly. I cannot go beyond this. I do not intend to make any false promises.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I wondered if the Leader had Rooster Booster in mind. Is the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, still going?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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What about Beef or Salmon, or whatever?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Coghlan referred to CIE services and requested that the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, come to the House to discuss the position on State assets.
All of us will watch developments at the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service today. I hope our colleagues from this House who have now been released to attend the meeting will make a good contribution and that we will have the benefit of their input to the debate on the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill next week.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, I presume further amendments can be tabled between now and next Thursday for Report Stage.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, Report Stage amendments.
Order of Business agreed to.