Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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Section 35 deals with the waiver and I made my point before debate on this Stage was adjourned. I ask the Minister to consider this amendment. I would like to see a stronger provision that the waiver "shall" be implemented as opposed to "may be" implemented.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator and I discussed this the last day. In a sense it is a contradictory position that he now wants me to force another provision on local authorities rather than leave the decision to them. The Senator knows very well that the waiver system has worked for many years. I am not proposing to undermine the position as it exists. It would be wrong of me to take the action the Senator wants in the context of this Bill. It is important that the system of waivers operates in an unfettered way. The decision is taken locally and it should remain so. I will not accept this amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I totally oppose this section. It is a further erosion of the powers of local authority members, a step backwards to the dark ages for local democracy. Yesterday An Bord Pleanála gave the go-ahead for the building of the first incinerator, in Duleek, County Meath. The next step will be the construction of the incinerator without consulting local people. We are a democracy and we believe—

Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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That is wrong. There was full due process.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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—in the voice of the local people. It was very high-handed of the Minister. In 100 years of local government there has never been such an erosion of the powers of the elected members. This is shameful and disgraceful.

The Local Government Act 2001 was hailed as a wonderful document because we thought it would create better local government and more powers to the locally elected members and that there would be a real decentralisation of powers and reform of local government. This Bill is quite contrary to that. It is eroding the powers of the elected members and bringing in more stealth taxes. The Bill proposes to give county managers the sole power to impose refuse charges. It is the greatest con job imposed on local authorities for many years, a huge attack on local democracy.

The Minister has cut funding and he has now cut power. He is on a loser on this issue. A great opportunity to implement some real reform in local government management was lost. The Bill suggests that councillors are incapable and cannot be trusted with the overall responsibility of a council and the Minister has given this power to managers.

His predecessor introduced an amendment which at the time was only to last for three years, in order to accommodate some of the people putting together the regional waste management plans. The elected members listened to their constituents and in a few cases made better proposals than the people who put together the plans. The proposals from the members for the minimising and recycling of waste would not be as damaging to the environment. Incineration is more dangerous than landfill.

It was always the case that officials were accountable to councillors and councillors were accountable to the citizens. This ensured that the views of the people were taken into account at every opportunity. This section threatens the future of democracy. Local self-government is the very basis of democracy and the Minister has thrown it out the window. The State wants to be responsible for everything and yet deliver very little. That has been the case since this Minister took office. He has introduced legislation that has eroded the powers of elected members.

Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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That is not true.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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That is what we were told.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Nobody said that.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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An Bord Pleanála gave permission for the construction of the first incinerator. It did so without consideration of the health risks or the risk to the environment.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to this decision.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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It is in relation to this motion.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The decision made yesterday should not be commented on. You may speak on the section of the Bill but I do not think the decision made yesterday should be referred to.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The next step will be to impose incineration on the people. The Minister is taking the powers away from the locally elected representatives and he has not introduced any real reform since he took office.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant. The matter under discussion is charges and you should confine your contribution to the charges.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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This is destroying public confidence in the system of local government. If local authorities are to manage their affairs properly, funding must be provided for recycling and better waste management systems, such as bottle banks.

Elected members are crucial for the effectiveness of local government. I cannot see how any right-minded Senator in this House who came up through the local government system could support this Bill. I am opposing the entire section.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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My party also opposes this section, my views on which are well known. I have a fundamental difficulty with any move that would lead to the denigration of the role of the councillor. That role is already restricted and limited enough and that is the view of many councillors across the political divide throughout the country. It is one of the perennial issues which councillors raise.

Councillors go to the county manager and advise the manager so that he will make a favourable decision. That is the executive function being exercised. I am not suggesting that managers are not making decisions based on what they perceive to be the wisest choice. This is an issue of critical significance to councillors. The proposal to transform the imposition of a waste collection charge from a reserved function to an executive function is a retrograde step.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I was good then and I am very good now.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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In case the Minister thinks he has not got worse, and I do not think he has—

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I thought the clarity of the statement was excellent.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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The Minister more or less took issue with the former Minister for the Environment, Mr. Flynn. The councillor from Waterford was being gung-ho but that in itself is local democracy at work. The fact that people can take these stances in regard to decisions is what local democracy is all about. One of my biggest fears in regard to this section is that waste collection charges next year will be much higher than they are this year, and there is a significant increase this year on last year. Apart from the issue of waste, if one considers the revenue associated with it, we will be funding benchmarking and, therefore, more money will be required next year. Managers will be able to set whatever charge they like and council members will not be able to do anything about it. That is a retrograde step for local government. Any reasonable person, particularly those who have had dealings with local councillors, would agree with that statement.

My party and I oppose this legislation. I ask the Minister to reconsider the issue because it is pushing the role of councillors further down the agenda. Under this section, the role of councillors is being denigrated, which is not healthy for democracy. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider the provision.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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This section is a retrograde step for local democracy. To hand over this power to county managers and take it away from locally elected representatives is a retrograde step. I do not know how the Minister will implement these proposals. He said on Second Stage that he will decide the charge commensurate with what people can pay. This leads me to believe that when the Bill is passed he will call in all the county managers and decide on a national waste policy, rather than letting each local authority make its own decision. He also said that local authorities were not nearly reaching what was expected of them in regard to waste management.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I said they are not approaching the real cost. The public should be well informed in this regard.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is correct. The Minister has grant-aided local authorities to the tune of €15 million, which works out at less than €500,000 per local authority, which is buttons.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Some 55 projects have been delivered nationally.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We have a few bottle banks here and there in towns throughout the country.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not make comments without foundation.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is entitled to make comments regardless of whether they are right.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Some local authorities have advanced more than others by using their own resources and by borrowing. They have received no help from the Department of the Environment and Local Government. The Minister's predecessor levied a charge of €25 per tonne of waste dumped at landfill sites, which has gone into the State's coffers.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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It has gone into the environment—

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Only a small amount of it has come back out. The 15 cent levy on plastic bags has been very successful. All this money should have been channelled out, including extra funding. Local authorities are strapped for cash and cannot make progress, yet the Minister had the audacity on Second Stage to blame public representatives for a lack of recycling facilities and a proper waste management system throughout the country. It is as a result of a lack of funding. The Minister is now handing over responsibility to county managers who will impose hefty penalties on the public. In light of what the Minister has said, he will call them in and demand this.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The comments of Opposition Senators almost fill me with despair because this is the sort of argument to which I have been listening throughout the country for the past ten years. The trouble with the argument is that there is not a semblance of leadership emerging either from the Fine Gael Party or the Labour Party on these issues. Both parties know that the law of this land and the European directives make it quite clear that the polluter pays principle is what underpins the waste management strategy. All parties supposedly signed up to this, which means that each individual is responsible for the cost of disposing of his or her waste.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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All except—

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I listened to the Senator with great patience when he lectured me. No Minister has given more time to this House recently and when I respond to Senators, I know what the issues are. The Senator berated me about his own county the other day. However, I did some research and found that all the issues he brought up were the responsibility of his own inertia and ineptitude when making decisions locally. He came into this House and blamed me for not providing funding. I am the first to acknowledge that councillors made difficult and fair decisions on waste management.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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It is the officials—

(Interruptions).

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bannon has made his contribution. The Minister, without interruption.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Instead of arguing on the point of a pin head, I might have expected the Senator to say that there is a crisis in this country in regard to the waste management strategy. The Senator and his colleagues write to me each day seeking money for X, Y and Z facilities. My Department and I are willing to put enormous resources into this strategy.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Minister will.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I will be honest with the public and explain that there are four elements to delivery of the best waste management system. These are prevention and minimisation, recycling, landfill and thermal treatment or incineration. That is now in place and the Senator need not think that after years of struggle to achieve it I will allow every local authority to overturn it by the end of the year as they engage in fancy footwork in anticipation of the local elections next year.

Members of the public are fed up with the hogwash uttered by the Senator in the House. They know there is a crisis and they want technological and cost-effective solutions.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Are we living in a democracy or a dictatorship?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is part of the local government system that has put these plans in place. When I was appointed Minister last summer an option put before me was the immediate establishment of the national waste management board. I could have done that but it would have meant a delay of another two or three years during which more reports would be commissioned and more appeals would be made. I decided not to proceed on that basis but to give the issue the political leadership it deserves. The people elected us into Government on that basis.

That is what underpins this strategy. We do not have the time or the luxury to restart these debates. We must deliver a facility to the satisfaction of the people to ensure that their environment, which they cherish as much as I do, is left in the kind of condition they expect for the next generation. That will not be done by talking hogwash in this House or in council chambers throughout the country.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I have never heard such arrogance from any other Minister in this House. I would sympathise with his position if he had engaged with members of the local authorities.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not use the word "arrogance".

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I withdraw the word. The Minister has contacted all 28 local authority managers in the country and has pestered them to spend €15 million when they have only spent €3 million. I sympathise with his position, but part of the fault could lie with his Department. Heretofore, the Estimates for the local authorities were agreed in November or December of every year, but this year the Minister extended the date to allow local authorities complete their Estimates by the end of January 2003. That delayed their deliberations. It was a backward step.

The meetings on local authority Estimates usually took place in March and April of each year. A former Minister for the Environment, Mr. Pádraig Flynn, decided to change that and provided that meetings on the Estimates would have to take place before the end of November or December each year. For some reason the date has been put back.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I have €50 million at my disposal to spend immediately.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister said that local authorities had drawn down only €3 million out of €15 million provided. He now says he has another €50 million. It is ludicrous to blame the local authorities for this.

The Minister has spoken rubbish because he has not a single proposal to put to any local authority. Yet he now proposes to give powers to the county managers to implement waste management plans that have been agreed and adopted by the regional authorities. That is being done. The county managers cannot be persuaded to spend any more than €3 million, yet they will be given more powers. Are they getting more power to do as they say or as they are instructed?

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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One might be prompted to say, "There are none so deaf as those who will not hear." The Fine Gael contribution could be described as a waste of time, or more accurately, a time of waste. It is important that this side of the House should register its support for the Minister and that there is no equivocation about it. The Minister was described as "arrogant" in a phrase which has been withdrawn. He simply told the truth about this issue.

There has been more damage done in the last 50 years to the environment than in all our recorded history. That damage has been caused by society which has a serious obligation to rectify it. The Minister spoke about what we must pass on to succeeding generations.

There is an even more fundamental issue which is to do with the economy, our exports and the image of our food products. It is to do with the totality of the economic life of the country. It comes with a cost which we must bear. As a result of this evening's debate I never again want to hear rhetoric from the opposite side of the House about the need to protect our environment for tourism or as an absolute in its own right.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Will giving power to the managers automatically protect our environment?

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Everything I have heard so far in this debate is a contradiction of the need for society as a whole to protect our environment or the need for the polluter to pay. The standards we are attempting to apply are ones which have been applied on the Continent. We must apply them here as we have no discretion about the matter. Even if we did have discretion we should still apply the standards.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Can the Minister dish out blame as he has done this evening and at the same time reconcile himself with the situation where people throughout the country, particularly in County Galway, are making a genuine effort to recycle? The Minister has never shown support for their endeavours. There is no market for the mountains of paper and cardboard for recycling. All that happens is that it is taken and dumped in Kill. The Minister's Department has never shown any initiative to cater for facilities where people have made an effort to recycle. Rehab is the only organisation to have shown some initiative and it has collected and segregated various types of waste. We all know of the debacle to do with glass recycling.

The key to many of the difficulties local authority members have had is the identification of a landfill site. We know what happened in Ballinasloe, which provided the only landfill site for both Galway city and county. The licence to accommodate landfill there was extended by the Minister and his predecessors time after time. It is now a crisis. The work the local authority in Ballinasloe has done, in creating a new landfill concept, is a credit to it.

The reason the members of Galway County Council rejected the Galway waste management and the Connacht waste management plans was simple. National consultants came to Galway and identified nine sites through a desk top process. They then made a shortlist of three. The suitability of these sites was questioned by everybody and is still under question.

A group of councillors tried to encourage the consultants to come out and look at particular sites but they refused. The Minister should not imply that we were irresponsible or shirked our responsibility. The Minister knows why they refused to look at those sites. They were not even considered, not because they were not suitable but because the consultants thought better of other areas. As long as the Minister has and supports such an attitude he is distancing himself from local authority members and is creating a barrier to good local government. The sooner the Minister comes down from his pedestal the better.

I do not know how many members of local authorities are present tonight but all of us cringe at what the Minister has said and is about to do. He intends to give the power to local managers who have already, through powers given by the Minister's predecessor, accepted the waste management plans against the wishes of the local authorities. The foundations are creaking. The Minister is not capable of redirecting positive local government.

Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
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County Sligo signed up to the Connacht waste management plan a number of years ago in the belief the plan would be implemented. The only landfill site we had in the county at that time has now been closed. Since then we have been held to ransom between counties Donegal and Mayo and wherever else we have to take our waste. We have four licensed refuse collectors in the county who are paying €168 a tonne to dispose of it. A 25 tonne load would therefore cost over €4,000.

Costs have risen substantially over the past few years. The last annual charge was €458 per annum. We did not go for the annual charge but decided to go for a bag system, €10 and €5 bags. As a result of introducing the bag system we cannot keep supplying bottle banks for people who wish to recycle their waste. We have no waiver system in the county either. Any county that has such a system is lucky.

Some people are composting their waste. I was talking to a man with a family of six who manages to get three weeks' waste into one €10 bag because he breaks down the waste. That is the way forward. Waste management plans must be put in place for everybody's benefit because the costs are—

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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They are in place.

Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
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They are not in place. The plans are on paper but they are not being implemented in the counties where they should be implemented.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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Last night when a Senator referred to another Senator's accent Senator Dardis was quick to jump up and down and beat his drum in defence of somebody else.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to what we are debating. Speak to the Bill.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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Now he has made remarks about Senator Paddy Burke who withdrew his statement.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant. Speak to the Bill.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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No. What was good-—

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I did not refer to any Senator in particular.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I will deal with that point. I ask the Senator to speak to the Bill.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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The other matter was on the Order of Business this morning and if that is the Senator's interpretation I can do nothing about it.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to speak to the Bill or resume his seat.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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I felt obliged to say that for the sake of clarity and balance.

Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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In reference to the comments about County Galway, it is only fair to say that the Department of the Environment and Local Governement has been very positive in helping our county, and indeed other counties. Environmental grants have been provided to tackle litter and the Department has had a role in the tidy towns competition. This should not be overlooked and it should be commended for the great work that has been done.

Senator Ulick Burke may not have heard about the green town award. A town near where I live, Mountbellew, is to be awarded this honour. It is not true to say the Department has been negative when, in fact, it has been very positive in regard to environmental issues.

Landfill proposals, by the private or public sector, have to go through the planning process and I am confident that this will happen in regard to Galway and the Connacht regional waste management plans.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator did not say that at the public meeting.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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He said it in public.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Until tonight I thought local government was an essential element in the democratic state – the machinery by which important services are provided. The Minister has stamped on and smothered local government by taking powers away from the elected members and giving them to the manager, who is being allowed to dictate to them. Councillors are most vexed and angered by what is taking place. How would the Minister like it if officials from his Department took over and ran the Department of the Environment and Local Government?

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Maybe that is what is happening.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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How would he like it if Brussels ran his affairs? The real problem with local government today is reform of the funding structures. The Minister has failed to recognise that. Successive Ministers in the Department took power from the local authority in regard to rates and other types of charges. These powers have been centralised and the Minister is continuing the process, which is shameful and disgraceful. This is not happening in any other country in Europe.

It is time for the Minister to get his act together and give the power back to the local authorities. Local government must be decentralised. This is what is being demanded. We oppose this section tooth and nail.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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As I said on another occasion, I could never accuse Fine Gael of sitting on the fence – the party is capable of straddling both sides of it at the same time.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister jumped off it himself. He jumped from Fianna Fáil to the Progressive Democrats then back to Fianna Fáil.

(Interruptions).

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Do not draw me out. It is interesting to note—

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Minister has been on so many sides that he will be able to scratch every fence.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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It would be helpful if I made clear what the Labour and Fine Gael parties propose.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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What about the Progressive Democrats?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should come up with something more original than that one. It is a bit well-worn at this stage.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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A leopard cannot change its spots.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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This is typical of Fine Gael at the moment which does not have an original thought between all its members.

(Interruptions).

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Both parties favour the full charging of economic operators but propose the abolition of household waste charges for segregated waste – which would somehow be collected, managed and looked after free of charge. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Either we recognise that there are laws which we must all adhere to, and that we are going to do something about the waste crisis or we are not.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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What did Fianna Fáil do in the Minister's constituency?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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They will jump for political reasons at the notion of waste charges, as per usual.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Cummins, allow the Minister to continue.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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That is the only way they will go. When in a hole, reach into the bag, pull out the usual old trick—

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister should not generalise.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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—and start talking nonsense about waste.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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In accordance with the order of the House I am now required to put the following question: "That sections 36 to 43, inclusive, Schedules 1 to 4, inclusive, and the Title stand part of the Bill and that the Bill be reported with amendments." Is that agreed?

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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There is no point of order.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Oh merciful God.

Question put.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.