Seanad debates

Tuesday, 25 February 2003

Nenagh Law Centre Staffing.

 

2:30 pm

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Cathaoirleach for giving permission to raise this important matter of the staffing levels at the legal aid centre in Nenagh and at the associated centres in Thurles and Clonmel. As the Minister of State may be aware, the administrative centre for the Legal Aid Board for Tipperary is in Nenagh, but there are outreach centres and there are also clinics and offices in Thurles and Clonmel.

A very serious situation has arisen with the staffing levels for the legal aid service in the county and there are consequent implications for those on the waiting list. According to figures supplied by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the staffing levels in the legal aid centres in December, and into January, were three solicitors and 3.5 support staff, and the waiting time for an appointment was nine months. The Minister of State would have to agree that this is an unacceptably long waiting time, particularly when compared to that in other parts of the country where the waiting time is more normally three to four months. Tipperary is outstanding in that regard in having, even in December, one of the longest waiting times for an appointment with the free legal aid service.

The situation has deteriorated since January with the loss of one solicitor and, as a result, the loss of a member of support staff. As notified to me via one of my Dáil colleagues last week by way of a written parliamentary question, the current position is that there are two solicitors and two support staff in the legal aid office in Nenagh and the waiting time for an appointment has now gone from nine to 11 months. This is an unacceptable and intolerable position. It is certainly intolerable for the staff involved, who I would imagine – without having discussed it with them – are being put under extraordinary stress, and for the people on the waiting list.

Only recently I received a woman into my clinic. I want to give this as an example – the Minister will be aware of the kind of case to which I refer. This situation could be replicated right across the country but I cite it as an example of the kind of difficulties faced when a person is relying on the legal aid service to sort out his or her affairs.

This woman's marriage has unfortunately broken up, due to psychiatric illness in the family, leaving her responsible for the mortgage. Because of a legal situation arising from the fact that her name is on the title deeds of a house, for which she now cannot afford to pay, the local authority is essentially saying that she is not qualified to apply for housing. We are dealing with that at another level. In fact, what she needs is legal separation. She wants to get a legal separation but she cannot afford a solicitor because of her position.

With two small children, this woman is unable to work. She herself is under severe stress and when I spoke to her last week she told me she had been waiting six months for an appointment with the Legal Aid Board. I advised her to go to another legal aid office because the waiting time in Limerick, for instance, is four months. I said to her that this was a really urgent matter and suggested that perhaps she needed to put herself on the waiting list for the Limerick service too.

This is the kind of situation with which we are faced. The local authority is telling me that it is in an impossible position. If a person's name is on the title deeds of a house and the person has not negotiated or finalised a legal separation, the local authority is in a very difficult position in dealing with the person's application for housing.

This woman is in very difficult circumstances. This is only one example of the kinds of problems people face. The Minister of State will be aware that at this stage family law cases have become the largest element of the work of the legal aid service.

I ask the Minister of State to explain why staffing in the Tipperary office has been allowed to fall to two solicitors and two support staff. I hope a commitment will be forthcoming that this problem will be rectified as soon as possible. I want to know why this is happening. Is it because of a cut in funds to the Legal Aid Board? If so, could the Minister of State please explain why this is happening and the justification for it? If there is such a cut, who made this decision, why was it made and are the implications being fully examined? It would appear to me that cuts such as this are hitting the most vulnerable in the community, the very people who cannot afford to go privately to a solicitor, who are dependent on the free legal aid service and who, as a result, are often left waiting often in legal limbo.

I should of course emphasise that the waiting time is for an appointment, not for a court hearing which, hopefully, is consequent on an appointment. Therefore it masks, in many ways, the full reality of this intolerable situation.

Photo of Noel AhernNoel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I apologise on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell, who could not be here. He has also asked me to bring the points made by the Senator to his attention.

As Senators will be aware, the overriding principle underlying the provisions of the Civil Legal Aid Act 1995 and the Civil Legal Aid Regulations 1996 is to provide legal aid and advice for persons of modest means. Section 5 of the Act provides that the function of the board is to provide, within the resources allocated to it and subject to other provisions of the Act, legal aid and advice in civil cases for persons who satisfy certain requirements set out in the Act and the regulations made thereunder.

Under section 30 of the Act, responsibility for determining how legal services should be provided, including the location of law centres and the staffing required by these centres, is a matter for the board. The Senator will appreciate that the function of the board includes identifying both the level of demand for its services and the most suitable way in which to meet the demand for services.

The Senator will be aware that, to serve the people of Tipperary, the board operates a permanent law centre in Nenagh and two part-time law centres in Thurles and Clonmel. This arrangement offers a reasonable geographic spread for the convenience of applicants throughout the county. The board has informed the Minister that its approved staffing complement for Nenagh law centre is two solicitors and three support staff.

The Minister has also been informed that at the end of January the number of persons on the waiting lists in Nenagh, Thurles and Clonmel was 45, 32 and 87, respectively. The waiting times, based on the person longest on the waiting list, at the three locations was ten months, 10.25 months and 11 months, respectively.

The Minister understands that, some time ago, as part of its remit and in order to address a number of staffing issues such as maternity leave, sick leave, etc., the board made a temporary increase in the staffing complement at Nenagh law centre on a contract basis. This temporary increase was to cover the staffing situation as it existed at the time and, following the return of the permanent staff members, the position has reverted to normal levels on completion of the contract.

The Minister has asked me to inform the Senator that, in order to improve the waiting list situation at Nenagh law centre, the board has taken the step of providing support to the law centre from its head office and will continue to do so in the coming months. The board anticipates that this measure will lead to a reduction in the waiting list at the Nenagh law centre shortly. The board has also decided to review the arrangements for the provision of legal services in the part-time law centres in Clonmel and Thurles.

In relation to applicants waiting for legal services, the Minister has asked me to point out to the House that the Legal Aid Board operates a procedure whereby priority is accorded to certain categories of cases, for example domestic violence, child care, child abduction and cases in which there are time limits. I understand that in these cases the application is dealt with immediately and the person concerned is not placed on a waiting list. That would probably not extend to the case to which the Senator is referring, although I have found from personal experience that local authorities are usually fairly co-operative in holding positions.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In so far as they can be.

Photo of Noel AhernNoel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not suggesting that waiting ten or 11 months is ideal. A system is necessary to ensure that persons who are subjected to domestic violence and cases involving the care of children are provided with a priority service. This is a most important initiative by the board and accounts for over 20% of all applications.

The House will be aware that a sum of €17.075 million has been allocated to the Legal Aid Board this year. While this figure represents a slight decrease of 3% on the allocation last year, it still represents a significant increase in resources for the legal aid board in recent years, up from €10.563 million in 1997 to €17.075 million in 2003. This is an increase of almost 62% over the period in question and compares very favourably with a consumer price index increase of just over 24% during the same period. Sanction for the board to employ additional full-time solicitors was also received during this period.

The Legal Aid Board has informed the Minister that it continually keeps the arrangements for delivery of legal services under review to ensure that it provides services to the greatest number of persons possible and that this includes the law centres in Tipperary. The information I have is different from the Senator's. She said the current staffing was two solicitors plus two support staff, whereas I said it was two solicitors plus three support staff. There is a slight difference in the information, even allowing for the extra contract person, presumably a solicitor, who was covering sick or maternity leave.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We were never told the person was temporary.

Photo of Noel AhernNoel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I accept what the Senator is saying and I will pass it on to the Minister. There seems to be a problem in that the service in those offices is not what might be expected. I am not sure of the nature of the support to be given by the head office.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will be interested to see the result.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.25 p.m. until 10.30a.m. on Wednesday, 26 February 2003.