James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)

I was just taking stock and this has been a good debate. I thank the Senators who brought forward the motion, and all who contributed. I am delighted to see the topic is getting air time in this House and the other House, because it is of such fundamental importance to our economy, our society and everything we do and have done as a nation. I am delighted this opportunity for all to have their say arose. I have listened intently. I will try to respond to most if not all remarks now. This debate will inform my views going forward. My door is open and I want to hear from all Senators at any stage their views and thoughts on the sector and how we can improve and what needs to be done.

It is clear from the motion and contributions that we agree on the pivotal role our third level education and research systems play as a critical engine of economic growth, while being an opportunity across the island. At the core of my approach is a simple but powerful belief, one that has been our industrial policy for the last 50 years, that Ireland's greatest natural resource is our people. Our talent, skills and population are the secret sauce that has propelled us from being effectively an agrarian, pre-industrial nation to the advanced economy we are today. All the resources that have been created as a result in turn fuel the public good and support the services we all need in areas like education, housing and healthcare. This has been made possible by all the economic success predicated upon that skills base and investment in education, resources and research that we have done. A few speakers used the phrase "knowledge economy". It is exactly what we are today, and long may that continue.

The Department that I now lead was created by an Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, when he took office in 2020. One of his primary goals, as Senator Dee Ryan mentioned, it was in the Fianna Fáil manifesto coming into that election, and then the Taoiseach made it happen and indeed continued it into the current Government. It is a core driver for national policy and economic and societal progress. It is an educational Ministry, first and foremost, but it is also an economic Ministry. Everything that we do in it drives the wheels of our economy, which in turn drives the wheels of social progress.

We are facing many challenges. We have global trade uncertainty, as a number of speakers pointed out. We have digital disruption. I think disruption is actually a good thing. Change is the only constant in life; we just have to embrace it and adapt to it. In respect of AI, yesterday I secured approval at Cabinet for Ireland to join the EU quantum pact. Quantum computing is the next AI, people are telling us already. There are digital leaps forward all the time. We need to be ready to embrace and understand them and for our population to be equipped to deal with and leverage them in a positive, productive way. That is what further and higher education is all about. I am committed to ensuring that our research and further and higher education systems and innovations systems across the board are fully resourced so we can continue to build the knowledge and capability that underpin our prosperity.

The programme for Government is clear in its ambition to provide world-class third level education and research in a way that is sustainable, inclusive and impactful.

I will speak to some of the issues that arose during the debate. I will work through the motion text but will refer to contributions as they were made as well. Starting with the student contribution and student grants, I am acutely conscious of the fiscal challenges facing students - the cost of education, put simply - and the need to have a progressive system to give most support to those who most need it while ensuring that nobody is excluded from the education system for financial means reasons. A number of speakers addressed that. Senator Kennelly spoke about people who should not be deprived of education because of cost being a barrier. I entirely agree. Senator Ní Chuilinn talked about struggling students and Senator Kennelly said that education should not be just for the privileged few. I entirely agree. Progressive measures target supports for those who most need them, those who are really struggling. They are the people e need to keep to the forefront of our minds in these debates.

Senator Tully spoke about reforms to the SUSI system. Again, I entirely agree. I am looking at the SUSI system in the round. There are a lot of moving parts but I am examining the system across the board. We know already that almost all students, barring international students and a couple of exemptions for second-time around students, have their tuition fees paid in full by the State. That is already the case and I think €300 million-odd is provided for that each year.That is already spent. That has already gone to a contribution made towards every student, barring some minority circumstances. In addition, almost half of all students have the student contribution fee paid in full or in part by the State. We are increasing the SUSI grant thresholds by 15% this year. More students will avail of SUSI funding supports towards the student contribution. Following the most recent SUSI revisions, which will be in the year ahead, households with an income of up to €115,000 per annum will qualify for at least some subvention towards the student contribution fee and other measures. That is reasonable. A sum of €115,000 is not a low income. Notwithstanding that, I understand there are challenges and the squeezed middle is an area that I am conscious of. A few Senators referred to gross versus net and the cost of childcare, mortgages and other things that come into play. We must note and recognise that the direction of travel has been upwards. We continue to increase those thresholds, supports, grants and rates. That is how it should be. I will continue to examine that.

Almost all speakers discussed the income disregard for holiday earnings. As somebody who worked every weekend, every Christmas and every summer up to my own student days, I am very alive to that issue. I would not like to see any student taking an extra shift or working an extra Sunday over the winter suddenly becoming frozen out of a grant system. The original logic for that was not financial but to do with the idea - dare I say a little paternalistic, perhaps - that a student should not be working and should be focusing on their studies. We must accept economic reality and economic necessity and the modern world. With full employment, there are many jobs to be had for students who want to contribute, hone their skills and get greater life experience. No decision has been made yet. All of these decisions are subject to budgetary process. I would be of a mind that we should continue to increase the disregard in line with inflation and minimum wage improvements, etc. That is something I will certainly be engaging on in the budget process. As has been mentioned, it has already been increased to €8,424 for the previous year.

For the student contribution fee, the base rate remains at €3,000 but we have had subventions in the past couple of years, as many speakers mentioned. That was a once-off and was very welcome, but it was a once-off intervention. We had a cost-of-living package from the centre which allowed those fees to be subvented. It has been confirmed in recent weeks from central government that there will not be a cost-of-living package this year. That applies not just to education but to other things as well. I remain engaged with stakeholders to see how we can tackle the burden of education and the cost of education in a way that is costed, fair and sustainable and how we make that happen. I had an event in Croke Park last month with a number of different groups, including students unions, access officers, service employees from different colleges, people working with students and people in advocacy organisations across further and higher education, to take their views on board and see what the greatest need is and where are the areas that require the most intervention. The programme for Government commits to reducing the student contribution fee in a financially sustainable manner over the lifetime of the Government. I fully intend to do that. Of course, I plan to do that. If I can at all, my intention is to honour every single aspect of the programme for Government. There are many laudable aspirations, goals, aims and objectives in it. I was in the room and wrote many of them. I fully intend to commit them. However, we must do them over time, in pace and in a financial and sustainable way. That is where we get into the detail.

The base figure is €3,000 and I intend to advance measures to reduce that incrementally in a way that is fair and funded and that is not reliant on temporary subventions, which, it must be acknowledged that, while they were welcome, there was uncertainty about in recent years because students, families and parents did not know from one budget to the next over the past couple of years whether there would be a subvention and where they stood. Families need that sort of certainty, guidance and clarity. If we can come up with a formula that is repeatable, incremental, fair and communicated to all, people will know where they stand and can plan accordingly.

There are a number ways which we can intervene in the cost of education. We can do universal reductions to the student contribution fee, which is a one size fits all. When we talk about struggling students, I acknowledge that some struggle more others and some universalities are not always the fairest way if we take a social justice approach. Another approach is a means-tested reduction to the student contribution - that is another option. Options include increasing the basic grant rates; changes to the non-adjacent rates in terms of commuting distance from a college; increases to the thresholds, such as the €115,000 I mentioned and where that may go to; changes to specific elements of the student grant scheme, such as the holiday earnings disregard I have already spoken about; changes to tax credits, which is something we can explore; and non-fee interventions, for example, the cost of transport and materials such as laptops, books and bags. There are also other types of intervention.Senator Ryan made an interesting comment that I entirely empathised with regarding where there was more than one student in a family attending third level education at the same time. Different circumstances are worthy of different considerations. I believe it was Aristotle who said we should treat equals equally and unequals unequally, meaning it is fair to intervene where the need is greater. That might be a premise we reflect on as we examine this.

I intend to publish an options paper on the cost of education. I hope to have that in the system in mid-summer ahead of the budgetary cycle. It will consider the different options. There are many levers we can move, remaining faithful to the programme for Government while also being financially sustainable, and do it in a way that is fair, progressive, costed, repeatable and not dependent on one-off, temporary interventions that can be welcome at the time but can leave uncertainty afterwards when they are revisited the following year.

Moving on to the pathways and CAO reform, I launched the new round of tertiary degrees today. These are 38 tertiary degree courses taking students from next September on. It is a really positive programme. I interacted with a number of students at an event on the matter in TU Dublin yesterday. They were people who perhaps would not have anticipated that they could achieve higher education and further education at local level through night college or FET courses and progressing on to full degree courses outside the CAO system. As one of the signs yesterday read, "No points needed". That is a great leveller. For people from non-traditional backgrounds that may struggle to navigate the CAO system, it is a progressive measure and I am delighted to see it in place.

I agree with Senator Scahill on apprenticeships and the need to focus on them. I agree on the difficulty within crafts and trade apprenticeships and the great demand for those. We have a construction skills programme within the Department, that being, the building heroes programme, which involves leading by example. There is an issue around gender equality. Why would we leave 50% of the population outside of the trades? Traditionally, they have been male dominated but there is no reason they should be. We have a number of outstanding young female apprentices in traditional craft roles who are doing really well. We are highlighting their work and showcasing that through our building heroes programme. The whole area of apprenticeships is important.

There was an issue two years ago where a significant backlog had arisen and people were waiting long times to get access to their courses or training. We have tackled that and moved it on to the point that waiting lists have decreased greatly, reducing the apprenticeship backlog and allowing access to places. This was done through additional funding of €67 million in 2024 and €77 million this year, along with recruiting a number of new apprentice instructors. This allowed us to clear the backlog and get back on track.

I agree with the Senators who said that apprenticeships should not be an afterthought and should have parity of esteem with the rest of the system, given how important they are.

Senators Harmon and O'Donovan spoke about the student accommodation strategy. That is something I am working on in the Department. Prior to the establishment of my Department, student accommodation was a little bitad hoc. In a similar fashion to second level school building programmes and primary school building programmes, there will now be a set of standard designs and it will be more cost effective. There will be synergies and economies of scale in terms of how student accommodation is rolled out. That is something I am working on and hope to publish this year. One hundred and sixteen beds are to come on stream at Maynooth University and this September is the target for that. Certainly, it will be the 2025-26 academic year. There are 493 beds as part of a proposal going to the UCD governing body, possibly next month and certainly by the summer. DCU is working on a proposal for 405 beds that will go to its governing authority. These are part of the student accommodation first wave but the strategy will supersede those when it comes on stream to deliver more.

Senator Cosgrove mentioned ATU Sligo. I had the pleasure of visiting ATU Sligo recently and approved its purchase of 16 acres of adjacent lands, which I understand it intends to use for student accommodation.

Senator Craughwell mentioned the TUI conference and adult educators. There is a new grade being introduced this September for those who wish to avail of it. That was something I spoke about at the TUI conference.

Senator Murphy spoke about the shared island initiative. I visited Queen's University Belfast and had some productive engagements there, including a meeting with the minister, Caoimhe Archibald, my Northern counterpart. On the National Training Fund, the core funding gap was €307 million. Some €164 million was procured to bridge that gap but I have secured a further €150 million per annum for the next five years. That brings the €307 million core funding gap down on a current annual basis. I intend to bring legislation on this matter through the Houses. That legislation will come before the Seanad in due course. I got Cabinet approval for this just last week. It will unlock the training fund and allow the money to be spent. There is a fund of €1.5 billion available, so the core funding gap will be addressed for further education, apprenticeships, research programmes, student supports and a variety of other things.

Senators Lynch and Dee Ryan and others spoke about the importance of research to our economy. There was a programme for research in third level institutions, as was referred to by Senator Lynch. My party introduced it when in government from 1997 onwards. The current Taoiseach was Minister for Education at the time. The programme fell away from 2011 onwards. I am reintroducing a package of this nature. I have a working group established to tease it out and I am making a significant submission under the national development plan for funding for it. I intend it to be transformative. It will relate to our knowledge economy and transforming our ecosystem and where we need to be.

The final point was on global uncertainty. Several speakers referred to this. I intend to make Ireland a magnet and a place that is welcoming of external academics, researchers and those who feel a chilling effect in other jurisdictions, not least across the Atlantic at the moment. Ireland is a land of saints and scholars – although there certainly are scholars, I am not sure how many saints we have left – and that is our strength, as it has been historically. I intend to introduce a programme to attract scholars from the United States and elsewhere and to make this a centre of excellence.

I really look forward to delivering on these reforms and measures and to working with colleagues in both Houses on them. I very much welcome the fact that we are having this debate today and that the Seanad has regarded the issue as sufficiently serious to dedicate an afternoon to discussing it. I look forward to introducing the measures in legislation and budgets and to taking on board Senators’ views as we work together.