Eileen Flynn (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the House. It is good to have her back. Many people and civil organisations have worked hard for many years on hate crime legislation. The Irish Traveller Movement, Pavee Point, the Irish Network Against Racism, INAR, Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, the National Women's Council of Ireland and many other organisations never stop working for human rights and equality in this country.

I remember working with INAR in 2015 when we launched the "love not hate" campaign all those years ago. We had the backing of 90 organisations and it was followed by a petition signed by more than 15,000 people. Two years ago I was privileged to relaunch the "love not hate" campaign along with INAR, groups representing ethnic minorities, LGBTQ+ people and people with disabilities. What people wanted then and still want today is the strongest possible legislation that works for everybody in our society. As I said at the launch, if we want a society in which we can all participate as equals we must recognise the damage and harm that hate crime causes people. We must respond to it and we must protect all people.We as a society must be inclusive. We must protect people from all forms of violence and harm that are directed at people because of who they are in society.

While people often say something is a step in the right direction, for me and for many human rights organisations, having good, strong hate crime legislation is more than a step in the right direction. It is about 20 steps in the right direction for our society. At the same time, there are many areas of this Bill that can be strengthened. I and my colleagues in the Civil Engagement Group will bring amendments forward in the coming weeks. We hope the Minister will give our amendments consideration. We are working with civil society on the amendments that we are hoping to put forward, including people on the ground, people from the Traveller community, people from working-class communities, people who are impacted by hate crime and people who have been forgotten in the conversation like ordinary working-class people.

Speaking as a Traveller, our community has been the subject of hatred within Irish society. We have had houses burnt because Travellers were moving into them. Recently in an area of Dublin, members of the Traveller community moved into a home and the next-door neighbours decided to sell their house. Obviously people can do what they want with their own home but this level of hatred and discrimination still exists today towards the Traveller community. When you are on the receiving end of hatred, it can define you as a person in what you go on to do. For many members of the Traveller community there are issues around employment and being able to thrive in Irish society. Some people cannot even thrive within our society because of hatred and discrimination. These actions can have a dramatic impact on people. I believe that when people know better, we do better. That includes everybody in this room. Unfortunately, there are some people you cannot educate.

As part of our effort to have good hate crime legislation, we need to make sure we include the voices of all people. We should not repeat what happened in 1989. That hate crime legislation has never worked and according to Pavee Point, there have only been five prosecutions in the last 30 years around hate acts. We see that all the time. People are talking about freedom of speech and how this hate crime legislation will impact on people's freedom of speech. I disagree with that. I appreciate the importance of freedom of speech. Our right to free speech has helped organisations and helped us as a country throughout history to bring about good legislation that does protect all people within our society. Hate speech is not free speech. If someone walks up the road and calls somebody a knacker or wants to stir up hatred for, say, the Traveller community, that is not free. You do not have the right to do that. You are not free to do that. You are hurting another human being.

Some people in this House need to look at what free speech is. If they are setting out to hurt a person, they need to rethink that. That is not free speech. That is hatred. That is discrimination. They are hurting people. It is terrible that we have to explain that to people who have gone through the education system, who you would think are well educated. I did not get the greatest of educations but I know I should not be setting out to hurt another person because of their sexuality or gender. Why should I do that? I do not give a shit what people's sexuality is and I do not care what people's gender is. It is live and let live. That is how we should be within our society. I do not care if someone is a trans man or trans woman. That is none of my business. They should be able to walk up the street. Who cares? There are some people in this House, in particular. Even today, I went to a briefing and I felt so sick that I had to leave. It showed every reason we need good hate crime legislation. It is to protect people and let people live their lives. I am sorry; I am after going a little bit off.

The Minister spoke about social media. People can be subject to hatred while sitting at home on their mobile phone. If I put something up on social media today, there are some people - not all; there is more support - who will attack me because of my identity. It is not because of what I said but because of my identity. We have to look at these big platforms. They are making profits off the back of hatred and discrimination online. We need to be the country that stops that to protect our people. If we are going to bring in legislation, let us do it right. Let us make sure it is legislation that does protect and that does change lives.

Having hate crime legislation is not going to stop homophobia. It is not going to stop people with disabilities getting bullied. It is not going to stop racist comments. When I was in the Irish Network Against Racism, INAR, in 2015 I remember a Muslim woman talking to me. That is what really shaped my politics, through getting involved with INAR and seeing other people from different communities who also experience hatred. She said she would get spat at on O'Connell Street because she was wearing a hijab. That really shifted my way of thinking because similar experiences happen to members of my community too. You really have to get out there with others within Irish society to understand what people are going through.

I welcome Dr. Seamus Taylor from Maynooth University to the Gallery. We know from our briefing that a lot of evidence and proof that something was a hate crime is needed and it needs to be shown in the proof that the crime was motivated by hatred. It is not that if this legislation is passed, everyone will end up in prison. It is a very long process. As the Minister said, it is evidence-based.

I welcome Second Stage of this Bill. Unfortunately, I will not be here to vote for it because I have to catch my bus but I will say that seeing this is hope. It is hope for people from minority groups. The day hate crime legislation passes through these Houses and is signed by the President will be a day that people in Irish society will feel a little safer. As I said, it will not change things overnight but people will have to think twice before they act out a hate crime on somebody because of their sexuality, the colour of their skin, their gender etc. We hear a lot of the time that if we can be anything, we should be kind. Unfortunately, we cannot legislate for kindness but what we can do is educate people. Hopefully that is what this Bill will do.

There are many concerns in the House from the Opposition and from the Government parties about this Bill. The amendments from the Civil Engagement Group and other political parties that are working with civil society must be accepted. If we are going to do a job, we should do it right. Let us not fail the people a second time. It has been 30 years. I am 33 years of age and we have been 30 years waiting for this legislation to be passed to protect people and to put people at ease. Is not going to stop hatred or discrimination but it is a step in doing that. I encourage the Minister to look at that.

I fully support this Bill passing Second Stage but I will not be here to vote for it. I thank the Minister for all her hard work in trying to bring about good hate crime legislation that works for people. My message today is this: no matter your gender, the colour of your skin, the background you are from or who you are in life, once you have not set out to hurt another person, it is live and let live. That is how ordinary people live in today's society. I have seen a lot of anxiety in this House about gender. People are getting really hot and bothered about it and talking about child abuse and are scaremongering. They should not be allowed to do that in this House. The sooner we have good hate crime legislation the better. It is not acceptable to hurt a person because of who they are.