Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent) | Oireachtas source

This is a key concern. While it is not the Minister's concern, I will certainly be raising it with the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight and others. It is pretty wild that amendments calling for definitions were ruled as a cost to the State. It is the case that the insertion of three definitions, including in one case a definition of something that is already referred to in the Bill, were ruled as being out of order due to being a cost to the State. I am extremely concerned, on a fundamental point of democracy, about what seems to be a creeping dynamic in respect of what gets ruled out of order and what does not. This is not acceptable. If it is the case whereby we are not allowed to introduce a term, to suggest language, or to define a term, then this is pretty unacceptable. It is a very serious concern and I want to signal on the record of this House, while not directly to the Minister, that if those measures are used to curtail proper parliamentary scrutiny and the improvement of legislation, then the balance between the Executive and the Legislature and between Parliament and the Government is being damaged. That is a concern. One of the things that we talk about when we are discussing this Bill, and we all speak about it, is democracy and the importance of those measures. It is a significant concern.

More specifically on the points, I urge the Minister to engage with us. Pending a proper argument about this within our own mechanisms, if necessary through our Standing Orders, in the course of this Bill it is likely that these amendments and definitions will need to come from the Minister.In that context I urge her to engage with them because what we are putting in here and what Senator Ruane, who took the lead on these, has been doing is giving the tools to the Bill and to the media commission that it needs to do its work properly. It is constructive. "Algorithm" is a definition which is there but really importantly, "automated means" - if automated means is referenced we are not talking wind upand clockwork - we need to be clear on what is included in that.

In that context, amendment No. 5 in particular is extremely constructive in that it talks about algorithms, recommender systems and other automated systems. It is important in regard to the recommender systems, some of the examples have been given but we know that when we talk about the dangers, the kinds of online harm that we talk about and that people speak about at the committees and that have been in the media, one of the things that is talked about is a person went in and watched a video of a dance-off and then four videos later found himself or herself watching a video of some far-right rally. That is because the recommender system is in play. That is where the issue around harmful online conduct arises.

We are actually not being prescriptive in terms of everything that we might like in regard to these things. What we are trying to ensure is that the commission is empowered to address harmful online conduct. When it refers to "automated means", and it is implied, the commission has to consider these factors when determining its penalties because one of the factors in the Bill that needs to be discussed in regard to penalties is, how likely was it for someone to have seen it and what the scale of distribution of this piece of harmful content has been. However, we are not empowering it on the front end to actually set guidance about what one should or should not be doing in terms of amplifying messages that may be harmful or amplifying content. We are giving it a defence in that respect at the end but we are not actually giving positive direction or empowering the commission to give positive direction on what is harmful online conduct. We may not come to those amendments but when we come to some of those we will in those sections be discussing where we think that should be inserted in effect and some of what it might include. What is really important is that the Minister comes back with definitions, certainly in regard to "automated means" and I would strongly advocate in regard to harmful online conduct as well.

It was actually here and quite some time ago, it was either 2017 or 2018 that the high-level expert group on disinformation, the EU's entire expert group that it brought into play, sat in this Chamber. It came and was hosted by Ireland to have this high-level discussion on harmful content and online damage. Some of this is part of the discussion that leads to the audiovisual media services directive and the European Commission's Digital Services Act. The expert group spoke very specifically about algorithms on that day in this Chamber. It spoke about algorithms, automated recommendations, routes to radicalisation on the one side, which is something the Minister has expressed concern about, and on the other side the targeting of vulnerable individuals. For example, on the political side it was about targeting vulnerable individuals based on data about a person's political views which is a special category of personal, sensitive data, but many of the big platforms and advertisers called it "observed data". Because a person has looked at this one video, platforms now consider they can move him or her along towards these other routes. That is a dynamic that rewards heat rather than light. I hope the Minister will engage with us and will bring forward definitions.