Mark Daly (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I imagine this would normally be a matter for the Minister to put in by regulation and statutory instrument. To see the procedures of the commission enshrined in legislation suggests a lot of thought has been put into this in terms of making sure, at all costs, that the lay person is the chair. The requirement for a quorum in our own rules comes under Standing Orders and is not laid down in any legislation. As is often the case with many organisations, it happens by way of regulations rather than being enshrined in the legislation governing the organisation. However, the Bill states that five of the nine members present have to be lay members in order to have a quorum.

I want to deal with the amendments in the grouping. Amendment No. 46 seeks to substitute the phrase, "the acting Chairperson shall be a member who holds judicial office in accordance with seniority". Again, this goes to the idea behind the amendment of Senators McDowell, Boyhan and Craughwell, which is that the chair would have a knowledge of the law but also of the legal profession and the requirements therein. My colleague, Senator Clifford-Lee, supports amendment No. 47, which states, "In page 14, line 29, to delete "lay"", which as it stands requires the member to be a lay member. Amendment No. 49 seeks the deletion of, ", 5 of whom shall be lay members", and addresses the assumption that the wisdom lies with the members of the public on the commission, not the members of legal profession. Amendment No. 51 in the name of Senator Norris seeks to delete all words in page 15 from and including ", the" in line 6 down to and including "determines" in line 8." Senator McDowell might clarify whether he is supporting that amendment. Amendment No. 52, in the name of Senators McDowell, Boyhan and Craughwell, seeks the deletion from page 15 of all words from and including, ", the" in line 14 down to and including "determines" in line 16."

I believe this goes back to the heart of the issue. The detail contained in the Bill, most of which should be under schedules or ministerial powers, takes a lot of the power away from the Department to draft what would be reasonable procedures of the commission. Of course, these measures are highly prescriptive and, again, are set with the idea that the legal profession must be a minority at all times.

Section 15 states:

(1) The Commission shall hold such and so many meetings as may be necessary for the due performance of its functions.

(2) The chairperson shall fix the date, time and place of the first meeting of the Commission which shall be a date no later than 3 months from the establishment day".

Again, this type of prescription would normally come under regulations. To state, "so many meetings as may be necessary for the due performance of its functions", means there is no limit to the number of meetings that could be called. If a meeting is called and there is no quorum, does everyone still get paid? If there are 365 meetings, does everyone still get paid? There is no limit to the number of meetings and, at the same time, no requirement with regard to how many meetings should be called. Should there be at least one a year or three? There is no minimum or maximum requirement, which leaves the issue open to the abuse of the chair who, obviously, would be a lay person according to the legislation provided for here.

The fact the procedures of the commission are so prescriptive leads to there being very little possibility of tweaking them as it becomes apparent some of the more detailed proposals, even those contained within section 15(5), might need to be changed. Ultimately, it could be found the system is unworkable. My concern with regard to the taxpayer is that there is no limit but I also have a concern that there is no particular requirement that there should be, at the very least, an annual general meeting and the changing of the chair. Perhaps that is dealt with elsewhere in the Bill and perhaps Senator McDowell might be able to inform me in that regard. I am sure we will come across it when addressing other sections.